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General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: goldenratio on September 23, 2009, 04:56:49 pm

Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: goldenratio on September 23, 2009, 04:56:49 pm
I just read this really fascinating article: http://neuronarrative.wordpress.com/2009/09/22/if-you-want-to-catch-a-liar-make-him-draw/


I think this is really fascinating and can actually probably work really well. What do you guys think? Hope this isn't a waste of a topic but it is pretty interesting!
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: crone_lover720 on September 23, 2009, 05:26:03 pm
now that we know the secrets we will never be caught.

I think I would be pretty good at making it look plausible if I was lying, but regardless I would prefer this to a normal lie detector test. those things scare me, I feel like I would get too anxious and it would show I was lying even when I was telling the truth. they should figure out other ways to test whether people are lying besides drawing the location.

btw some people use a strange perspective even when they are looking directly at the object. we call it angel view, it's like drawing the scene from a tree or a bird's eye even though you're flat on the ground.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: im_so_tired on September 23, 2009, 05:44:14 pm
maybe you could see if he's lying based on neurological activity of remembering, but certainly you couldn't tell just by looking at the drawing. without drawing training most people tend to draw an over head perspective, or at least show more of what you really see of an object - regardless this would make lots of honest people seem like liars. to just be able to look at a drawing and say someone is lying is completely... over simplified.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 23, 2009, 05:46:55 pm
uh, no?  idk if someone told me to draw my dorm room i'm not gonna draw a floor plan
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Hundley on September 23, 2009, 06:13:38 pm
i perfer the cut off a finger until they tell you what you want to hear method
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on September 23, 2009, 06:16:56 pm
it's kinda hard to show all four walls at once

Quote from: im_so_tired on September 23, 2009, 05:44:14 pm
maybe you could see if he's lying based on neurological activity of remembering, but certainly you couldn't tell just by looking at the drawing. without drawing training most people tend to draw an over head perspective, or at least show more of what you really see of an object - regardless this would make lots of honest people seem like liars. to just be able to look at a drawing and say someone is lying is completely... over simplified.

this isn't the most innovative of ideas, it's unlikely to make honest people seem like liars though. it's basically the same as picking up on "THE SUN WAS IN MY EYES SO I HAD TO SQUINT IN THE ELEVATOR." it wouldn't be "YOUR PERSPECTIVE AND STYLE ARE A DEAD GIVEAWAY"
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Farren on September 23, 2009, 06:18:33 pm
but hundley, obama says that don't work
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Mince Wobley on September 23, 2009, 08:14:32 pm
Quote from: climbtree on September 23, 2009, 06:16:56 pm
it's kinda hard to show all four walls at once





Not really just draw the room like you're looking at the ceiling
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on September 23, 2009, 08:34:05 pm
that's the opposite of a top down view dummy!
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Kaempfer on September 24, 2009, 01:58:18 am
If you asked me to draw where I am in this room I would draw a rectangle and then draw me in the corner looking at a smaller rectangle (the computer desk). I wouldn't draw you a third person image of me staring at my computer.

It really comes down to where they were in the action and what you are asking them to draw. I think a lot of things are like that. Plus, people who were shocked or confused when it happened would have very hard time remember details well enough to draw them; many witnesses/suspects can barely remember them well enough to vaguely describe what happened.

I'd think the person who drew more details would be the liar, actually, since they'd be compensating to make really sure everyone thought they were there. Like "draw what you saw when Mr. Johnson was shot" and they draw everything including the pretty flowers in the background and the old disused pair of shoes on the ground and the steam coming out of the sewer grate. SUSPICIOUS.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Mateui on September 24, 2009, 03:00:42 am
This is a little off-topic but it relates so I'm going to say it. When you think of any memory you have of yourself, do you picture yourself in that memory from a 3rd person view (even though we see things from 1st person)? I do and it just amazes me how the mind is able to construct memories that are obviously false, adding in details of oneself from a completely different perspective than actually experienced.

The shoulder-view makes in truth tellers makes sense then, but still with some of my memories I can see myself from the front.. weird.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Mince Wobley on September 24, 2009, 03:05:15 am
Quote from: climbtree on September 23, 2009, 08:34:05 pm
that's the opposite of a top down view dummy!

(https://legacy.gamingw.net/etc/tenisvelho.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/casa-deitada.jpeg)
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: crone_lover720 on September 24, 2009, 03:06:48 am
those wouldn't even look like houses if they were right side up
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on September 24, 2009, 03:13:39 am
i wish they did more research to confirm what we think happens
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Killer Wolf on September 24, 2009, 04:21:43 am
We had an assignment when I was in an 8th grade art class where we were supposed to draw our bedrooms. My father had been in construction and had been into drafting. A lot of my early computer time (when I wasn't playing Golden Axe, Kings Quest, or Quest for Glory games) was spent with CAD. For the assignment, I naturally drew a top down perspective.

A lot of time, when I try to call up something from way back in my memory, I see the scene in a first person 360 view. (An example being my recollection of a restaurant my parents took me too once when I was six) But, since I had a hard time expressing that on paper, I drew it as an overhead. Then again, I remember what everyone ordered, conversations I overheard from the bar section, etc.

To me it sounds more like the study could be interpreted as "art majors tell the truth, regular people lie."

I used to sketch/doodle with my off hand when I was writing essays in school (and at the time I was ambidextrous enough to switch off which hand I actually did the writing with). I remember being asked to stay after for the stupidest things, because apparently I also did this on some tests. I'd just scribble some random crap while I was answering. Evidently, I did some scenes of graphic violence or depravity on a vocabulary test at one point. That wasn't the issue though - instead they were concerned because it was an exact (well, close enough to concern them) reflection of something I'd scribbled out earlier.  Never mind the fact the tests were boring/easy enough I could draw during them, the teacher's were concerned because they thought it meant I was cheating somehow!\

And, that picture of the houses reminds me a little bit of South Florida after hurricane Andrew... Then again it could just be the palm plant and the thigh tile roofing.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: CorporateGreed on September 24, 2009, 05:24:17 pm

I've studied lying for some time (finding the tell-tales of a lie, studying oddities in movement when
people are lying and mistakes made when constructing a lie) and I must say this is rather obvious.
It works the same with actual lying, detachment from the subject, leaving details away and generally
shying away from the main subject at hand are things most common in lies.

Finding these things in drawings of lies is to be expected. I really hope they're not going to actually
use this though, seen how anyone who draws regularly will draw in a certain way, the test won't work
on actual artists and anyone knowing what's going on and familiar with lying will know what's he's
expected to do for people to believe him.

I can't believe they didn't come up with this sooner.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: goldenratio on September 24, 2009, 05:46:34 pm
Quote from: Killer Wolf on September 24, 2009, 04:21:43 am
To me it sounds more like the study could be interpreted as "art majors tell the truth, regular people lie."
if you really think this then you are an idiot.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: ATARI on September 24, 2009, 07:13:59 pm
that sounds like something an art major would say..
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on September 24, 2009, 07:17:45 pm
he was joking. you can tell because his post didn't have many details
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Killer Wolf on September 24, 2009, 07:45:57 pm
Quote from: Gabriel on September 24, 2009, 05:46:34 pm
if you really think this then you are an idiot.

If you were incapable of discerning what my comment inferred, that those with a strong artistic background would naturally perform better than someone who could hardly even sketch out a smiley face without detailed instructions, then you are in no position whatsoever to make judgments about the presumed mental deficiencies of others.

It doesn't sound like a bad study, only a loose one. There are contributory factors I would like to know: how wide was the sample set, what did the makeup of the control groups look like, and was the study were carried out as a double blind? With those answers we might start getting someplace. I always find studies that prove exactly what they were designed too a little suspect. I will concede, however, that I am only working from the article's description as I wasn't able to get the link for the actual study to load for whatever reason, so these conditions may have already been met by the experiment.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 24, 2009, 09:07:53 pm
Quote from: Killer Wolf on September 24, 2009, 07:45:57 pm
If you were incapable of discerning what my comment inferred, that those with a strong artistic background would naturally perform better than someone who could hardly even sketch out a smiley face without detailed instructions, then you are in no position whatsoever to make judgments about the presumed mental deficiencies of others.

hello the study was about how they drew things not how WELL they drew things, the people telling the truth added more details (for example "oh yeah there were some flowers planted over here") and drew things from a different perspective, none of which has anything to do with artistic ability.  either you're v. dumb or you didn't actually read the study
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: goldenratio on September 24, 2009, 09:12:46 pm
bango ;)
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Killer Wolf on September 24, 2009, 11:07:41 pm
What I find interesting now is this: despite the fact that the post immediately after my original one in this topic expresses, in part, a similar sentiment, I am the one you selected to rebut. You chose to do so not with an actual counter to the criticism that I offered, but by attacking me for saying it. Well done!
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 24, 2009, 11:34:01 pm
Quote from: Killer Wolf on September 24, 2009, 11:07:41 pm
What I find interesting now is this: despite the fact that the post immediately after my original one in this topic expresses, in part, a similar sentiment, I am the one you selected to rebut. You chose to do so not with an actual counter to the criticism that I offered, but by attacking me for saying it. Well done!

I did actually counter it, I just called you stupid at the end of it.  Now quit doing the 15-year-old thing of "I am going to try to discredit your words by attacking your choice of argument instead of realizing I am wrong, and also I am going to talk like a term paper."  You're not looking good by talking like this.  Like I said, it's got NOTHING TO DO WITH ART SKILLS whatsoever.  I have no idea why you brought it up even since you claim to have read the article, you are simply wrong about this and I explained why.  I just chose to rebut your criticism of this fine article via my own particular methodology, which includes calling you dumb at the end of it for saying dumb things.


As per.


Shut your face.  You're not coming off as smart by doing this. (Q.E.D.)
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Mince Wobley on September 25, 2009, 12:23:21 am
You're internet debating velfarre killerwolf....
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: ATARI on September 25, 2009, 12:52:18 am
vellfire
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 25, 2009, 01:27:14 am
Quote from: Mince Wobley on September 25, 2009, 12:23:21 am
You're internet debating velfarre killerwolf....

what debate?  he said a dumb things, i called him out for being dumb, conversation over

there is nothing to argue there, sorry to break it to ya pal  :fogetnah:
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Killer Wolf on September 25, 2009, 01:35:23 am
Can you say with 100% certainty that a person's artistic ability (intrinsic, or learned) has no effect whatsoever on how they would perform within the confines of the study? If so, well then I must defer to your eminent wisdom and apologize because I was not aware you were part of the research team.

The point here wasn't to prove the study right or wrong, but to point out that for something to have any value as a tool, instead of being rendered a simple anecdotal curiosity, a wider range of variables should be taken into consideration.

The way I talk, or in this case type, is not an affectation. It is, quite simply, how I am and how I sound.

And for the record I also have a penchant for arguing with vending machines, stop signs, and poly-sci/philosophy split majors. The only difficulty arises when said split major happens to be the girl you're trying to date - in which case any victory is instantly transformed into a pyrrhic one, but I digress.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on September 25, 2009, 01:45:52 am
Quote from: Killer Wolf on September 25, 2009, 01:35:23 am
Can you say with 100% certainty that a person's artistic ability (intrinsic, or learned) has no effect whatsoever on how they would perform within the confines of the study? If so, well then I must defer to your eminent wisdom and apologize because I was not aware you were part of the research team.

'To me it sounds more like the study could be interpreted as "art majors tell the truth, regular people lie."'

it's a pretty big jump from a possible confound to major contributing factor. like way further than from the ground to your high horse
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Killer Wolf on September 25, 2009, 02:06:05 am
"could be"

And as to the high horse I am apparently astride, I must first don the appropriate garb. I'm thinking perhaps something reminiscent of the full military dress uniform seen on antagonistic characters in certain operas. I could have my own leitmotif. Perhaps a rousing score accompanied by a booming baritone or bass voice reciting the following lyrics - "I must concede I've been perceived as conceited, but I was born to be victorious and I can never be defeated, so yes I will concede I was conceived to be conceited."

Don't bother trying to google that phrase, it wasn't cribbed from anywhere.

Edit - An alternate track, such as Bonecrusher by Soulhat might also suffice.

Edit - More mitigating factors that could effect the study just occurred to me - men and women can have differences in perception of spatial geometry - to the point that some professors had to re-evaluate the method used for their lab practicals because female students felt they were at a disadvantage - if someone has difficulty perceiving space or detail, they would likely have increased difficulty representing objects within that same space, thus an inadvertent embellishment or omission that could be taken to indicate dishonesty. This is to say nothing of differences between right and left handed individuals, or those who may have had a surgical right/left brain split.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 25, 2009, 02:17:20 am
It could be that gay men draw more phallic shapes in their drawings.  Could this affect their guilt????? Could be!

You are talking about "could be"s that don't make any sense.  I AM saying that artistic ability has NOTHING to do with this study.  It specifically says that they are looking at whether someone draws in third person or first person (i.e. nothing to do with drawing ability) and how many details they leave in (nothing to do with drawing ability--a poorly drawn rain cloud with a smiley face on it is more convincing than a liar drawing a sunny day when the crime took place in the rain).  You don't have to be part of the research team to read the goddamn article right.

Quote
They also suspected that the drawing would seem less plausible overall, and would not include a depiction of the person they allegedly met.

this could be a STICK FIGURE for all anyone cares, you don't have to be any sort of artist to give small details that a liar couldn't give

btw this:

Quote
And as to the high horse I am apparently astride, I must first don the appropriate garb. I'm thinking perhaps something reminiscent of the full military dress uniform seen on antagonistic characters in certain operas. I could have my own leitmotif. Perhaps a rousing score accompanied by a booming baritone or bass voice reciting the following lyrics - "I must concede I've been perceived as conceited, but I was born to be victorious and I can never be defeated, so yes I will concede I was conceived to be conceited."

Is what I was talking about when I said "shut your face".  Stop talking like this.  Forever.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Killer Wolf on September 25, 2009, 02:35:23 am
Quote from: Velfarre on September 25, 2009, 02:17:20 am
btw this:

Is what I was talking about when I said "shut your face".  Stop talking like this.  Forever.

Wow, you were talking about something I was going to post in the future! Scary. I bet you didn't even need a study to see if your hypothesis was correct.

Since your sardonic humor detector seems to be malfunctioning, the statement above was not to be taken seriously.

So, the consensus here is that from now on anything that is published is to be taken as literal and factual, held above criticism or questioning? I'm a bit surprised that the devil's advocate position is so under-staffed. Blindly follow, happily swallow - whatever gets you through the night.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 25, 2009, 02:42:31 am
Do you really not see the difference between questioning a study for what it says and questioning a study for something it never at any point implied?  Because that's what you did.  You weren't asking anything of what the study said, you were asking something that wasn't even relevant.  The study's findings suggested NOTHING that would be affected by art skills.  Stop with your bullshit, you're not even arguing the point anymore you're just arguing that the rest of us are somehow inferior to you (hint:  no) for disagreeing with you.  You're wrong, that's all there is to it.  You're not even talking sarcastically you're just talking out of your ass like a freshman who just joined the debate team.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 25, 2009, 02:45:48 am
Also let me say that a lot of shitty artists are art majors.  I've seen people who can't art themselves out of a paper bag do senior projects for art majors, all you've gotta do is complete the classes, and they don't fail you for having no talent as long as you do the assignments.

Your argument is DOUBLE fucked.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Alec on September 25, 2009, 02:52:46 am
Quote from: Killer Wolf on September 25, 2009, 02:35:23 am
Wow, you were talking about something I was going to post in the future! Scary. I bet you didn't even need a study to see if your hypothesis was correct.

Since your sardonic humor detector seems to be malfunctioning, the statement above was not to be taken seriously.

So, the consensus here is that from now on anything that is published is to be taken as literal and factual, held above criticism or questioning? I'm a bit surprised that the devil's advocate position is so under-staffed. Blindly follow, happily swallow - whatever gets you through the night.
Do you really talk like this in real life? You realize that using high school vocabulary words every 3 words makes you sound like a hipster?
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Alec on September 25, 2009, 02:54:40 am
Not just a hipster. Like juno in thick rimmed glasses
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Killer Wolf on September 25, 2009, 03:00:07 am
Calm down, if you all start perspiring you'll upset all the cats in your neighborhoods. (Paraphrased)

My posts had to do with trying to point out that one study, generally, proves nothing. If they are allowed to have a hypothesis, so am I. Mine was that other factors could intrude on the veracity of their results. Something as subjective as "draw something" being used as a test for something as concrete as truth/lie seems a bit arbitrary to me.

One of my professors was fond of saying to his class, "If you find exactly what you are looking for, either you are a bad scientist or you weren't looking for the right thing."

Your arguments/counters (whatever nomenclature you want to use) are more about trying to "bring me down a peg" then they are about being relevant to the initial matter.

And again, to my vocabulary or word usage, earlier I was slightly in error. I do tend to dumb it down a little when I'm online. If being equipped with a moderately expanded vocabulary is a sin, oh well.

Here's one for you, climbtree, an opening for some JKD jokes: Gang up, bring friends... I'm used to defending myself against multiple opponents. =)
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Mince Wobley on September 25, 2009, 03:02:03 am
Quote from: Velfarre on September 25, 2009, 01:27:14 am
...i called him... dumb, conversation over

...

That's the definition of an internet debate

Killer wolf I bet you can't get out of a rnc
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 25, 2009, 03:03:58 am
Are you seriously 26 years old?  Please tell me your age in your profile is wrong, nobody should reach 26 thinking it's cool to talk like that.

Also uh I'm pretty sure we're only trying to bring you down a peg because you severely need it.  The reason we have so many awful kids (and even some adults) right now is because nobody is telling them to stop it.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: crone_lover720 on September 25, 2009, 03:04:21 am
I think you are using hipster too liberally aztec. a hipster would use words like that all the time because they sound funny or they're being ironic.

also I would just like to remind you all that the man you are dealing with is not a dog. he's a wolf
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 25, 2009, 03:05:30 am
Don't think I forgot earl.  The only thing I remember him for is that story (and I think other stories about how cool he thinks it is to get into fights in high school).
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Alec on September 25, 2009, 03:24:13 am
Quote from: earl on September 25, 2009, 03:04:21 am
I think you are using hipster too liberally aztec. a hipster would use words like that all the time because they sound funny or they're being ironic.

also I would just like to remind you all that the man you are dealing with is not a dog. he's a wolf

or to feel like they're better than someone else for using words that should never be used colloquially:

Quote from: Killer Wolf on September 25, 2009, 03:00:07 am
And again, to my vocabulary or word usage, earlier I was slightly in error. I do tend to dumb it down a little when I'm online. If being equipped with a moderately expanded vocabulary is a sin, oh well.

btw, it's not an EXPANDED vocabulary. I don't know why you think that. We ALL understand what you're saying, it just reads awkwardly because words like that aren't really meant to be used.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Alec on September 25, 2009, 03:25:18 am
show of hands anyone here ever had to look up a word in a killer wolf post?
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Killer Wolf on September 25, 2009, 03:25:44 am
Quote from: Mince Wobley on September 25, 2009, 03:02:03 am
That's the definition of an internet debate

Killer wolf I bet you can't get out of a rnc

There are multiple exits, and that is even before bringing in anything like Kino Mutai... this is presupposing you were referring to a rear naked choke and not a republican convention. The latter I would simply avoid at the outset.

Quote from: Velfarre on September 25, 2009, 03:03:58 am
The reason we have so many awful kids (and even some adults) right now is because nobody is telling them to stop it.

To stop what, having an opinion or two that not everyone goes along with?

I do apologize though to Gabriel, not for my initial post (or, for that matter, any of the subsequent ones) but for my overall inadvertent de-railing of the topic. If someone wants to make a "lets try to pick on the wolf" topic, go ahead, I could use the laughs. For now, though, I'm done trashing up someone else's topic, batting the same refuse back and forth ad nauseam.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: goldenratio on September 25, 2009, 03:28:26 am
oh yeah i created this topic... everyone shut up. killer wolf i apologize for being inflammatory in my post. I guess I would like it have said that it was a very dumb thing to say, but you are not "fucking stupid" or whatever I said. Although your thesaurized posts kind of still make you a douche it's for a completely different reason.

so anyways everyone shut up and don't talk about killer wolf anymore. Next person gets a banne (i know admin user drule dont MES WITH ME GUYS)
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: crone_lover720 on September 25, 2009, 03:41:47 am
under the tutelage of Randy Tutelage
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: goldenratio on September 25, 2009, 03:44:10 am
 you see that? now that's fool's gold. thats NOT for sale.
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: fatty on September 25, 2009, 04:56:11 am
Quote from: earl on September 25, 2009, 03:41:47 am
under the tutelage of Randy Tutelage
Into the shadows, cast on devotion
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Shadow Kirby on September 25, 2009, 02:31:36 pm
Quote from: Velfarre on September 25, 2009, 03:03:58 am
 The reason we have so many awful kids (and even some adults) right now is because nobody is telling them to stop it.

On GW or in society in general ?
Title: If you want to catch a liar, make him draw
Post by: Vellfire on September 25, 2009, 03:33:21 pm
Society in general.