Gaming World Forums

Creativity => Game Design & Demos => Topic started by: Gongo on October 19, 2009, 11:28:27 am

Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Gongo on October 19, 2009, 11:28:27 am
Well for my game I have planned a few different methods for a Class system, but before I start work on them I have a few questions regarding this subject.

1. Do people even give a hoot about Class systems anymore or are you discouraged by them?
2. If a game did have one would you prefer to be able to change classes at will or a "One choice and you’re stuck with it" system?
3. Exactly how should the Class system impact the game in your view, for example, like FFV where the story seems to revolve around it or more like an extra add-on?
4. Do you prefer classes to be restricted to what kinds of equipment they can use or do you prefer more freedom in that department?
And finally
5. Should Class skills be learnt as you level up or acquired though other means? (Such as buying them with Points or the like)

If you could share your thoughts on this matter it would help greatly. Thanks
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Taylor Kaz on October 19, 2009, 01:51:19 pm
1.  I like class systems so long as they are implemented well.
2. At will
3. Extra add on.  not too many classes where it's confusion everywhere.  be creative to come up with some that aren't the generic Knight, monk, thieve, black mage, white mage..
4. yes but make lots of equipment, that's easy to do anyways.
5. buying them with points, or like, money. 

Reminds me of a shirt i saw someone wearing, money can pay for your classes, but money can never buy you class.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: psy_wombats on October 19, 2009, 02:34:45 pm
1 - Class systems are fine when they're used to add replay value. This is achieved through differences in how the classes are played. I've seen too many games where there are plenty of classes to chose from, but the style of play is either "SPAM THE MELEE COMMAND" or "SPAM AN OFFENSE SPELL." It has a lot to do with the DBS. You can still pull it off, but just make sure different classes means more strategy.

2 - Doesn't matter, as long as if the player is allowed to change at will, you can't end up with a character who excels at everything. See the above note; homogeneous characters kills strategy.

3 - Having never played FFV, I can't judge. Maybe you should elaborate...? But in general making the plot revolve around classes would be a nice twist, (though FFV may have done this, no idea). But if you mean making the gameplay revolve around classes, then that's a firm yes. You don't want to make class irrelevant.

4 - It would be nice if the equipment weren't restricted so much as just not preferable. For example, light classes taking speed penalties from heavier armor/weapons.

5 - This has a lot more to do with skills than it does classes. And a mix is usually safe, but this is one of the points that makes the game unique. Can't exactly make a rule out of it. (Though I guess that applies to the previous stuff as well. Oh well)
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on October 19, 2009, 03:10:52 pm
1. They add variety and replay value, no matter what game style you are using them for.
2. Depends on the context in which the class system is used. In general if it's an rpg, I perfer flexibility, but if it's some other genre of game that borrows rpg elements (or isn't an rpg but still has a class system), then having the player stay with his initial class seems  like a more intuitive decision to make. (it's also a good way to make replay value a plus)
3. If you are going through the trouble to build this style of functionality in your game, I can't help but expect there to be a good reason for you doing so. That being said, it's impact in your game if you choose to design one for it should be in direct reference to the reason you decided to make a class system for that game in the first place. Like the previous question, it's all a matter of context. If you know you need it for your game to work, then the player should understand that as he is getting to know the class system for himself.
4. Context. How the hell am I supposed to know how classes should be limited if I don't even know what the classes are yet? I mean, shouldn't it be based on what the classes are to begin with? If you are going to give a wizard a broadsword, then you either need a class system that takes the idea of a class with both capabilities into account, or simply have your game in a setting where it is apparent wizards commonly use broadswords, so that the skill isn't awkwardly or arbitrarily placed within that class.
5. You should reward the player for locking himself in when he initially chooses the class. You also need to reward the player as he accomplishes the things in your game that count towards progress. These are the important things you need to consider, and any specification beyond that is just in the technical implementation based on the type of game you want to make. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: context!
Extra layers of customization work especially well with a points system for instance, but so does complexity. Players can play your game much more easily if they don't have lots of extra stuff they need to manage before advancing, so you have to make sure whatever you ask of the player outside of the play itself is going to be worth it during those moment of actual play. No matter how robust it makes your game, extra menus and options are always going to be an obstacle the player has to get through in order to get to the play itself.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: StudioFortress on October 19, 2009, 05:17:29 pm
1. Depends entirely on how they are implemented. In some games it adds to the replay value of the game if you can play it very differently with different classes. This adds more depth because it's one way in which how you choose to play has a direct effect on the world around you.
2. I don't like games where you can switch classes, but typically that's because they have loads of them and that's what I really dislike. I most prefer a mix: you have to choose a base class (which your stuck with) but through skill/experience points, sub-classes of your base class (which you you can upgrade too) and being able to choose which skills to learn next. I believe too much choice all at once is a bad thing, and for me this allows you to offer a vast amount of choice broken up so it's a piece at a time.
3. I don't like games where your class depicts what you will see in that game. It should simply be that it's far easier to get to/achieve certain sections of the game depending on what class you are. But this really depends on the game.
4. Yes, but I prefer it to be done by skewing the players stats associated with that equipment towards certain classes. For example if you require a certain skill level before you can use a bow then you could give Hunters a higher initial skill level then say Mages. Another example is that you allow both Mages and Knights to wear heavy armour and use broadswords. However the Knight could be allowed to carry far more heavy equipment in his inventory and receive a much greater defence and offensive bonus from the equipment. This skews certain classes towards certain equipment, but also allows you to use and eventually specialise in specific pieces of equipment designed for another class if you want too.
5. My favourite systems are either to give the player points when they level up which they can spend on advancement, or level up whatever stats and skills they use the most. I don't like level systems where I am not in control of what skills/stats will be improved next because then I tend to care less about them (because it's automatic).
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Pipcaptor Hatsuya on October 20, 2009, 01:15:34 am
1. Do people even give a hoot about Class systems anymore or are you discouraged by them?
Yup, it increases replay value, of course adds tactical touch and it gives you flexibility/

2. If a game did have one would you prefer to be able to change classes at will or a "One choice and you’re stuck with it" system?
I'd rather have change at will instead.

Let me share this, Emil Chronicle Online has this gimmick of "one choice and you're there for life" for their base class, and later on, you can choose your 2nd job, but you can snag the other skill of the other 2nd Job class.

ex. Fencer -> Knight
     Fencer -> Dark Stalker

You get 5 Knight Skills, then you job-changed to Dark Stalker and learned the rest of the Dark Stalker skills.

3. Exactly how should the Class system impact the game in your view, for example, like FFV where the story seems to revolve around it or more like an extra add-on?
In my game, it's more of a necessary add-on, and it will give my game a tactical touch.

4. Do you prefer classes to be restricted to what kinds of equipment they can use or do you prefer more freedom in that department?
That's a hard question... In my game, they're restricted to what kind of equipment they'll have, 'cause their skills depend on their gear! For instance, you wouldn't give a Samurai rapiers 'cuz of their customs, or... You may give a magician a handgun to protect him/herself, but not shotguns and rifles.

5. Should Class skills be learnt as you level up or acquired though other means? (Such as buying them with Points or the like)
I'd rather buy them with points, and even buy them with in-game cash (yeah, call it the in-game Cash Shop Skills, NetGame Crisis Saga has this coming!)
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: SupremeWarrior on October 20, 2009, 08:31:42 am
1. Do people even give a hoot about Class systems anymore or are you discouraged by them?

Yes we do as long as they are implemented properly.

2. If a game did have one would you prefer to be able to change classes at will or a "One choice and you’re stuck with it" system?

I prefer to change at will, since it will go into what I will explain in the next sentence.

3. Exactly how should the Class system impact the game in your view, for example, like FFV where the story seems to revolve around it or more like an extra add-on?

Either it doesn't matter to me.

4. Do you prefer classes to be restricted to what kinds of equipment they can use or do you prefer more freedom in that department?

The more flexibility the better, why? Because it lets the player customize, knights can use bows, spears, swords and axes, same with samurai's and ninjas. Maybe you should  take a look at FF5 where you can make a character learn a skill which will let them equip axes, swords and other weapons etc.

5. Should Class skills be learnt as you level up or acquired though other means? (Such as buying them with Points or the like)

Classes I think should be learnt or should be obtained by using required points to obtain them.

Try to be flexible with this, imagine letting the player make a mage that can use swords, making a knight learn basic black magic and etc. There are many possibilities and this will give your game more replay value as players will take their time to customize each and every one of their characters for a specific job or duty.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: SW on October 20, 2009, 08:43:23 am
Answers:

1. Yes and no. (Yes) because it also allow roleplay and stuff, so why not. I enjoy the feeling that I can create/decide what kind of a jerk I am going to be in the game (joy). (No) because I actually like a system where the PC can choose what aspect to upgrade/what skill to learn (which is not limited by class specific skill only) more. However, I still enjoy simple class sytem once in a while (to me it's more of an add on).

2. Depends on how far you allow us to break the game. Too much flexibility = too easy of a game (especially if they player KNOW which combination to take). However, I do enjoy making an ultimate character once in a while so yeah, either way is a win win. I actually like the idea sub class (secondary/tertiary class) btw. It allow flexibility but not too much.

3. The idea getting crystals to gain job is.... unique but I don't really enjoy it too much. Maybe because I don't like "YOU ARE THE CHOSEN ONE" plot these days. In this case however, both. If you can integrate class with plot, that's pretty awesome too.

4. Actually I prefer Free for all equipments, but... uh... balancing issue so I guess it's up to you as the gamemaker...

5. Buying them with points.  
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Rone Rivendale on October 21, 2009, 06:23:45 pm
First of all, I LOVE that GW Ultros avatar.

1. Do people even give a hoot about Class systems anymore or are you discouraged by them?
I like Class systems when they are done right. Customization is always good.

2. If a game did have one would you prefer to be able to change classes at will or a "One choice and you’re stuck with it" system?
Change at will is good. Also the Vandal Hearts way of changing more than once, giving a branching set of choices as you go along.

3. Exactly how should the Class system impact the game in your view, for example, like FFV where the story seems to revolve around it or more like an extra add-on?
Is should be a major part of the battle system otherwise it's pointless. Storyline wise, it shouldn't have anything to do with it.

4. Do you prefer classes to be restricted to what kinds of equipment they can use or do you prefer more freedom in that department?
Yes, restrict equipment. But like has been said, make sure there is a lot to choose from within each class.

5. Should Class skills be learnt as you level up or acquired though other means? (Such as buying them with Points or the like)
Level up skills are good, although if you are allowed to change classes at will it can be abused like crazy. Point systems are great, if done right. It gives the player a goal to work at in order to excel at the battle system. Plus it's more customization which as I said is always good.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Biggles on October 21, 2009, 09:22:20 pm
I am assuming you are talking computer/console RPGs here.
Do people even give a hoot about Class systems anymore or are you discouraged by them?
The kind of variance provided by a class system tends to make RPGs more fun. The kind of variance provided by a skill system that implies a class system without outwardly constructing and naming one is cooler, but also somewhat harder to balance/design. I prefer the latter in games where character development is in the hands of the player(s). Omitting a class choice system, however may allow you to tell your players more about the characters in a more story based game by how they and their stats (or equivalent) develop. Adding replayability in such games is still possible by allowing characters an individual skill tree or similar 'progression system'.
If a game did have one would you prefer to be able to change classes at will or a "One choice and you’re stuck with it" system?
If I chose my class initially I like being able to choose again. Perhaps as I advance, the different classes available to me will change, however?
Exactly how should the Class system impact the game in your view, for example, like FFV where the story seems to revolve around it or more like an extra add-on?
If you are developing a story based game then you should probably have a sensible reason that your characters have 'classes', yes. I'm of the opinion that any game mechanic that is just tacked on as an extra feature should be removed. A game is not a feature list.
Do you prefer classes to be restricted to what kinds of equipment they can use or do you prefer more freedom in that department?
Depends on the game's setting and what role the class system serves in it. Also depends on how you want your battles to feel. This is a 'think carefully and then playtest' decision.
Should Class skills be learnt as you level up or acquired though other means? (Such as buying them with Points or the like)
Skills should be obtained in a way that meshes with the overall feeling you're going for.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Rajew on October 22, 2009, 02:22:16 am
Quote
A game is not a feature list.
Actually it is in the most important phase of development (the paperwork stage)

I like classes. I like to be able to choose a class at the beginning of the game. The ability to switch classes should be available to the player, but in a way that it doesn't effect the game balance. You shouldn't be able to level up as a fighter, then switch to mage and keep all the benefits of a fighter(high hp, high defense, whatever + spells and stuff). Switching classes would either be akin to starting over or losing a large amount of experience/levels (say 75%).
Personally I prefer a one choice and you're stuck with it system but from a Game Design point of view the ability to switch is more preferable.

The class system should impact the game in the sense that your playstyle is different. If the rogue, mage, and fighter all play the same then why do you have a class system? Integrating classes into the story isn't really necessary.
"Oh, you're a level 19 paladin? So you can use heavy armor and up to 3rd level white magic, but no black magic and you can't wield axes?"
"Yes that's absolutely right, level 21 wizard who can use black magic but not armor or weapons besides staves"
It's assumed that the characters have trained a certain way.
Classes should be restricted only as far as some skills are better than others, imho. A Morrowind/Oblivion type system, where all skills are available to all classes anyways comes to mind. This also makes the point of class changing moot, as you can technically change class at will (with a little bit of work).
In fact, the Elder Scrolls system is the best designed class system I've seen.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Biggles on October 22, 2009, 05:24:09 am
Thank you for the tutorial on game planning Rajew. Now I will know to plan all of my games as lists of features and nothing beyond that. Actually I think that the same principle could have a valuable *cross-application* into the field of novel writing:

my book
features:
- words
- cool car chase
- picasso shows up
- gold plated cover
- gold plated pages
- sits on a plate made of gold

This is the way to proceed. Now to fetch some words...
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on October 22, 2009, 05:27:56 pm
Really biggles? You quoted Rajew as saying that the only thing a game is in the planning/paperwork stage is a feature list?

Because I'm looking at what he said right now and I don't see him explicitly stating that anywhere. He said that a game is a feature list in that stage, but you jump to that conclusion based on the assumption that it is impossible for it to be more than one thing at the same time.

Maybe you are just mad because when you heard the words "the most important phase of development", you expected a comprehensive tutorial on initial game planning and documentation, but all you got was a reply to the actual topic of discussion.

I could make that tutorial myself, but if what you say about it's cross-application with writing is true, you would be just as happy with me only posting the feature list of such a tutorial:
my comprehensive game planning tutorial
features:
- lots of words
- strategies for finding the comprehensive goal behind your game's design
- quotes from famous people of the game development industry
- advice on how to outline and document your ideas in an easy to understand matter
- making your feature list (obviously the most important part)
- encouragement
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Lackeos on October 22, 2009, 08:43:33 pm
-Class systems are good, because I think most RPG'ers like to customize their characters (i.e. D&D, WoW, FF5, to a lesser extent FF1, Gogo in FF6, etc.).
-If you're using an RPG Maker, class systems are absurdly easy to implement if you're using the DBS.  If you're using a CBS, then you're going to have to use a lot of extra fork conditions.
-It's not a very good thing to force a player to be stuck with the classes he's chosen, and there's no programming limitations that would force you to.  With WoW, you can pay gold to respec, which essentially means to re-assign all of your skill points.  In FF5, whenever you want, you can switch jobs and start at the beginning of a new job while still retaining all of the talents you learned in the old one.
-I think equipment should be restricted according to class, or at least restricted according to weapon proficiency skills that you learn through your class's skill progression.
-The way that abilities are learned is its own topic, and there would likely be no consensus.  You can learn them at level-up, purchase them from a store (or from a Dojo, school, etc.), start-off with abilities that get stronger when you use them (i.e. you start-out knowing Fire, and the more times you cast it, the stronger it gets; so there's never a Fire2 or Fire3 spell to render it obsolete), gain abilities through quests, gain abilities via an Esper-like system (in FF6, you equip an esper, and gradually learn its spells when you win enough battles), and so on.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Biggles on October 22, 2009, 11:33:23 pm
EDC, you can read my post as "fuck you, that's not what I meant at all. i know what game planning is." if you like. The entire text he was responding to was:
Quote
If you are developing a story based game then you should probably have a sensible reason that your characters have 'classes', yes. I'm of the opinion that any game mechanic that is just tacked on as an extra feature should be removed. A game is not a feature list.
And by 'a game is not a feature list', I meant that just writing down a list of "cool features" with no relevance to one another is a thoroughly incompetent way to plan a game.  I responded with the assumption that rajew had understood what I meant and disagreed.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Rajew on October 22, 2009, 11:57:19 pm
Quote
just writing down a list of "cool features" with no relevance to one another is a thoroughly incompetent way to plan a game.
That's actually how a game starts. This is how the industry does it.
from there you decide how those features are incorporated into your game. I don't really see any other way you can do it!

Besides, classes aren't really something you have to work into the game. As I said, it makes sense that most characters will have some form of training in certain things, hence a class.
PS: your example of cross-application actually very well applies to designing a game(dunno about books) except for the bit you added about packaging.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Biggles on October 23, 2009, 12:17:24 am
I don't think that the entire game industry follows an identical approach to game planning, somehow. I don't think that the industry necessarily plans games perfectly every time either. Personally, I see games as a way of expressing to other people what you think is fun. I'd start planning a game from some overall idea or theme or message (or several) and then fill in the details in terms of how various game mechanics fit together to achieve it. Lists could still be used in writing this down, yes, but the overall feeling shouldn't be just a "list of cool stuff to put in game" but rather a system of rules that fits together to form something more cohesive (and maybe meaningful?).
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: psy_wombats on October 23, 2009, 01:23:48 am
That's the difference between industry and amateur game design. Starting with no plan, (or a "concept"), and running from there is what you do to have fun making a game. Maybe you'll come out with something spectacular. Maybe you'll come out with epic fail. That's the problem. When it requires a substantial investment to develop the game, you better be damn sure that the product will be enjoyable.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Biggles on October 23, 2009, 01:39:41 am
oh no! not epic fail! if only the mighty wisdom of the commercial game producers was on my side... then i could survive in this harsh and confusing environment of video games development.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: psy_wombats on October 23, 2009, 03:32:58 am
Maybe you should examine industry successes instead of failures for your role models then...?
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on October 23, 2009, 03:57:33 am
Quote from: Biggles on October 23, 2009, 12:17:24 am
I don't think that the entire game industry follows an identical approach to game planning, somehow. I don't think that the industry necessarily plans games perfectly every time either. Personally, I see games as a way of expressing to other people what you think is fun. I'd start planning a game from some overall idea or theme or message (or several) and then fill in the details in terms of how various game mechanics fit together to achieve it. Lists could still be used in writing this down, yes, but the overall feeling shouldn't be just a "list of cool stuff to put in game" but rather a system of rules that fits together to form something more cohesive (and maybe meaningful?).

Yeah, I don't know why I was antagonizing your earlier post. I pretty much agree exactly with your whole viewpoint on the matter.

Anyone who actually goes through with making a specific game has a specific reason for deciding to make that game. If the person already knows what that reason is beforehand, he is going to be far more likely to produce a meaningful design that best reflects why he chose to make that game in the first place.

The way I see it, this should be what headlines your game design document, and should be reflected in everything else you choose to put in that document.

Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: psy_wombats on October 23, 2009, 04:40:16 am
Quote from: Bat #2 on October 23, 2009, 03:57:33 am
The way I see it, this should be what headlines your game design document, and should be reflected in everything else you choose to put in that document.

I'll agree with this. I'm against the whole "my game must have -feature- as -game- does this" mentality, but what I'm more trying to say is that the document should exist in the first place.
Title: Class Systems, You're Thoughts?
Post by: Mikemc on October 28, 2009, 06:08:53 am
1. Do people even give a hoot about Class systems anymore or are you discouraged by them?
I think different classes opens up the replay value. For example mixing different classes, or going it alone with each separately.

2. If a game did have one would you prefer to be able to change classes at will or a "One choice and you’re stuck with it" system?
Be stuck with it, unless it is similar to your current one. A soldier shouldn't suddenly be infused with magical abilities but he could learn archery, experiment with herbs and then become an apothacary. A Cleric might dabble in the dark arts or learn the bow.

3. Exactly how should the Class system impact the game in your view, for example, like FFV where the story seems to revolve around it or more like an extra add-on?
If you could make the story differ depending on your class (prejudices, different methods) that would be most exciting, otherwise it would simply change the difficulty. (Like an elf might be better at riding the magical unicycle of Thermos, than a dwarf)

4. Do you prefer classes to be restricted to what kinds of equipment they can use or do you prefer more freedom in that department?
Again, a pansey Elf shouldn't be able to wield a battle axe and dwarves should stay away from the leotard.

5. Should Class skills be learnt as you level up or acquired though other means? (Such as buying them with Points or the like)
Most skills should be learned as you progress, with special extras available from training or side quests. We all learn to walk, but not everyone learns to drive. It can make life easier or (in my case) become a useless skill.