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Creativity => Game Design & Demos => Topic started by: AtmaBuster on December 19, 2009, 12:58:15 pm

Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: AtmaBuster on December 19, 2009, 12:58:15 pm
I wanna ask is mapping incredibly important in Rm2k3 games i really want to know because i started making a game but im not that good at mapping,im currently making the battles there pretty fun i enjoy them alot and my story will be cliche at points but still unique(i dont wanna spoil it)

So will my game be hated if the mapping isnt very good or will people still enjoy it.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Christophomicus on December 19, 2009, 01:18:30 pm
Epitome isn't quite the right word to use, is it...?

I dunno dude. You have to have some competency in mapping. As long as there's some cort of coherent order and everything isn't a perfect square/rectangle/circle or whatever then I'd wager you'll be fine. Look around at some good map and see if you can figure out how they're constructed; the 'best' ones use three layers (events as the third) or extra character sets or something. Few will be interested in your project in screenshots if the mapping isn't good, at the very least; screenshots usually rely on eye-candy of some variety, whether it be mapping prowess, custom sprites, etc.

Regardless of this most people won't take many RM2K3 games seriously anyway, but ya. Who can blame 'em for the most part?

My two cents! I know I've said something wrong in here already but I can't figure it out. I'll post again later.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: The One on December 19, 2009, 02:15:31 pm
Your game will be hated, so learn to map properly and get some mapping skills. Nobody is good at mapping right from the start. Observe a tileset and envision how it would look like if it was real.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: RPG on December 19, 2009, 04:11:09 pm
look man i'm simply not going to bother with your game if you dont get the mapping right. i dont care if it has the best story or the most innovative gameplay ideas, if i see 4 of the same tile in a row or less than 3 light effects overlayed over every map then i'm simply not going to touch it. you gotta work on em maps and its gonna be hard and you're gonna spend 80% of your time working on that one forest map with stuff all over the place that the player can't get from point A to B but can still marvel at the unique combination of rudra tilesets with star ocean trees. rpg making is really about maps, thats why the map editor is the first thing ytou see when you run the application. you dont see the database editor or the event editor do you? if youre wondering why maps are so important remember that this community is built around the screenshot topic. the screenshit topic is very important and no matter how detailed and interesting your story synopsis is or how fun the game systems are, you just cant show that in the screenshot topic so its useless, your task is to impress as many people as possible by making screen after screen (mostly mockups) and posting them, please dont try to be fresh or different, and stay way from unique graphics because who are you to compete with the great artists who did all our chrono trigger and rudra maps. your maps might be empty so you need to fill them and make them look different this is referred as the 3 tile rule and you need to do your own research on how to make a map thats as cramped as possible for a good example look at the legend of the philosopher stone where its very hard to navigate through a forest where you cant step on fungi and grass btu it looks so beautiful with those overlays. another option is to take some generic tileset and do some photoshop work you see this a lot in rmxp but it can be done in rm2k3 basically you use the burn tool to make it look shiny and detailed. if you aren't ready to spend so much time making maps maybe youre better off leaving the community while you still can we do not welcome your kind around here we want to see more ff6 maps with tales of phantasia sprites because at heart we all know we'd rather spend 4 hours making this one map with ripped tilesets rather than spend it on making our own tileset or finding someone who would help us make some. i also noticed you talk about fun battles and unique story and i have to warn you that along with our love for unoriginal ripped maps we also love unoriginal and uninspired stories and systems that are little variations of the games we used to love in early 90s except without any real production values its better if you made a fangame but if you couldn't just make a fangame and give it another name and no one would notice. i'm not trying to discourage you i'm telling you the wayt it really is and i'm concerendd for you because i want to see you winning a misao or two. rpg making isnt really about you having fun and making a game you like, maybe it was that way in the old days before people knew how to effectively use the show picture command but now we are more advanced and things are more competetive and if youre not aiming for a misao then why bother might as well just make a game in game maker or one of those engines "indie games" people use to make their innovative crap. would you rather make the next barkley or the next laxius saga?
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: wilikeh on December 19, 2009, 04:44:21 pm
ignore the trolls and the hate, make a game that is fulfilling for you first, then worry about sharing it. You learn through it yourself.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Corfaisus on December 19, 2009, 05:47:00 pm
What's truly important is storyline and gameplay. Mapping, while important, should be one of the least of your worries for the most part. I would suggest drawing out a sketch of what you want a town/castle/dungeon to look like, in and out, and then go into the map editor, take whatever chipset you are using, and then try your damnedest to recreate that picture in your maps. If you aren't very creative, then I would suggest just making houses that fit together in an ideal way, and then surround it by trees, mountains, tall grass, dirt paths (all of which should be "rounded"), barrels and cut logs on the side of houses, and tree stumps to signify where the spare wood came from. Whatever you do, do not make every house in your village look exactly the same. For example, copy/paste of a single house to represent every house in one of your villages is a BIG no-no. Even if they are square, use different wall tiles and ceiling tiles, different windows and doors, and whatever else you can come up with to make each house stand out, if even by a little. One last bit of information... Use the different wall tiles for the outside of your house, I cannot stress this enough. I've seen a few games in my day that use just one of the brighter tiles (I've been guilty of this in my early years) for the entire outside of their house.

I'll supply a quick example, one because I'm bored and need something to do, and two that I find it's essential to provide a graphic representation of one's information.

(http://pub.gamingw.net/64296/NTD.PNG)
What not to do.

(http://pub.gamingw.net/64296/TD.PNG)
A more acceptable, but by no means perfect in any way, alternative.

Before I forget, "practice makes perfect" doesn't really apply here. You could be using Rm2k3 for years, or a few days, and still come up with the same maps. Also, it's not a bad idea to spend some time on your maps. If it took you anywhere between less than a minute to 3 minutes to make your outer town map, I would suggest deleting it and doing it over. A good map should take you at least 10+ minutes, though 20+ is ideal. I'm sure that if you have the time to devote yourself to making a halfway decent game, you have enough time to work on a single map for as long as it takes to make it look good and function easily.

EDIT: Just noticed a couple of mapping errors in the second map example. I either needed to increase the height of the highest right cliff by at least one or remove the boundary that would separate the two cliffs at the top. The other being that one of the right corner cliffs along the top of the map is one tile too tall.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: JMickle on December 19, 2009, 05:53:30 pm
dont make a game with maps. thats the answer
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: JMickle on December 19, 2009, 05:53:54 pm
what does it matter anyway? this game isn't gonna get done.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Captain Goodluck on December 19, 2009, 08:25:25 pm
Quote from: JMickle on December 19, 2009, 05:53:54 pm
what does it matter anyway? this game isn't gonna get done.

alas :(

Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Ragnar on December 19, 2009, 08:52:10 pm
I kind of wish for every rpg maker game everyone was forced to make their own graphics because for some weird reason it wouldn't accept anything else. Seriously I'd rather see 1000 games with original-looking stick people than one more pixel of Rudra graphics (that always look like the color's reduced too, I don't know if this is just how Rudra looks but it's fecking annoying)

also original music, I want to play games with just weird random noodling on the default piano patch creating tension during the most involved scenes

http://www.last.fm/music/Venetian+Snares/Songs+About+My+Cats/katzesorge+part+1 this this should be the soundtrack to every rpg maker game
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: RPG on December 19, 2009, 09:04:24 pm
Mapping is the opium of the masses. --Blindmind
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: BlindMind on December 19, 2009, 09:57:14 pm
Quote from: RPG on December 19, 2009, 09:04:24 pm
Mapping is the opium of the masses. --Blindmind
If this were a Facebook status I would totally like it.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Killer Wolf on December 19, 2009, 10:53:54 pm
I've always had trouble with mapping. A lot of times I just laid stuff out on a grid, and it showed. I tried to cover by setting most of the stuff I started in modern/moderately sci-fi periods so that streets/grids would make sense.

Something I like is when the map feels much bigger than it is. One of my old projects was supposed to be set in this sprawling medieval/fantasy city. I tried my usual grid crap, and it came up lacking because the area always either felt small or empty. Then I tried a different approach, using the exteriors of buildings or walls as my borders so that it felt like the areas where the player could travel were always part of something bigger.

In my opinion, you need to develop story and do some basic area design at the same time. The game I'm working on right now starts off in a space station. When I made the original version, I didn't really think my maps out. I just added on as new ideas came to me, and that added up to a lot of crap. During the re-write, I decided to put more thought into the space station's design. What would you need to have on a space station? Fuel stores, water stores, generators, atmosphere control, hangars, living quarters, pipes/plumbing, a control room... all of that. I started out making a quick sketch with cutaways for a few different levels, and I realized that with a better map I could improve the objectives/goals for the player during that part of the story.

But I kind of wandered off the main topic there, more into "world building", or at the very least, Station Building, than actual mapping. My approach now is to kind of think out the encounters/hazards/etc that the player will come across in an area. How do I funnel them into an area where an ambush or plot scene happens without making it seem too forced, how do I provide the sensation of exploration without filling maps up with a lot of useless dead ends and wrong turns? I try to think of the main path the party will have to take through an area, and then lay down some floor tiles as a guide so I have a general idea of how an area should flow. From there, I add walls and doors, lights and control panels. I'm by no means great, and not even that good, but my advice would be to lay out your maps in a way that doesn't annoy, or put to sleep, your prospective players.

Quote from: Ragnar on December 19, 2009, 08:52:10 pm
also original music, I want to play games with just weird random noodling on the default piano patch creating tension during the most involved scenes

You would have really dug an old project of mine. The main character suffered from random bouts of insanity, and I tried to convey it with music.

Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Calunio on December 19, 2009, 11:11:16 pm
I believe everyone is capable of improving their skills in every aspect of game making: spriting, mapping, writing, coding, etc. So "I'm not good at mapping" isn't really a good excuse. If you're not good, get better. Take a look at good maps, check mapping tutorials, practice. That's it. Yes, of course good maps are important.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Neophyte on December 19, 2009, 11:34:34 pm
Maps are meant to be played on, not to be looked at. If your maps are no good then your game design is no good.

so yes it is the epitome, get good at it or get out!!1
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: AtmaBuster on December 20, 2009, 12:04:28 am
Um ok i guess il keep practicing which is hard for me to do since im very impatient. Thanks to Corfasius and Cristophicmus' responses they were by far the best and il use all the advice in them. (And i map nothing like that horrible 1st map in Corfasius response i map alot more like the second except abit crappier).

I think il continue this game with the not awsome mapping since its my 1st attempt but my next will have great maps.-Scrap that il just practice. alot its the school holidayse here and im so bored
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Terrorantula on December 20, 2009, 02:34:53 am
No-one reasonable expects a first game to be perfect-demos and first games are you feeling your way through the system, and you cna always rework things later if necessary... Hell, there are a lot of factors in a game, including story, not just graphics and maps. Just try to make certain things don't look like cardboard. I feel one has to start somewhere- don't let fear of criticism keep you from creating.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on December 20, 2009, 02:52:16 am
If you are brave enough to know exactly what you want to play, then you already have every tool you'll ever need to make a quality game people will show respect for, even if it's something they might not want to play themselves.

Anybody can do it if they start by using what they know, to identify and observe opportunities where they can experiment or learn.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: AtmaBuster on December 20, 2009, 03:59:50 am
Can i ask how do you post a picture onto a message i want to post a map im working on.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Corfaisus on December 20, 2009, 04:35:27 am
When making a post, use the icon that looks like a painting above the emoticons to show a picture. What I do is go into "Upload Files" and right click an uploaded picture's title and choose "Copy Link Location", and then paste the following between the [img ] and [ /img] tags.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: The Winkler on December 20, 2009, 06:04:53 am
Quote from: wilikeh on December 19, 2009, 04:44:21 pm
ignore the trolls and the hate, make a game that is fulfilling for you first, then worry about sharing it. You learn through it yourself.
What he said.  At one point in time, this place was a giant for constructive criticism and support.   No more.  Now it's just hate and penis envy from people who don't even  produce.  (even the dead ones)   So... yeah... what he said.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: AtmaBuster on December 20, 2009, 06:58:09 am
Oh i get it though i started fresh so i dont have anything right now.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: BlindMind on December 20, 2009, 08:38:19 am
Quote from: Neophyte on December 19, 2009, 11:34:34 pm
Maps are meant to be played on, not to be looked at. If your maps are no good then your game design is no good.

so yes it is the epitome, get good at it or get out!!1
don't mislead him neophyte..... only those select elite who have truly mastered the 3-tile-rule are worthy of misaos and such.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: c0nfu53d on December 20, 2009, 09:22:06 am
Watch the you amount of space you use as well - you dont need a large space for a bog standard shop for example, so make it small unless it needs to be bigger.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: AtmaBuster on December 21, 2009, 12:02:37 pm
this a map i made in aroun 10 minutes pretty horrible compared to other maps ive seen i guess  um the image is showing up as broken
           
               


 
                                       (http://file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/hoda/Desktop/MAP1.bmp)
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Vellfire on December 21, 2009, 01:54:56 pm
I don't know what kind of confused thinking causes someone to think that mapping is the most important element in a game.



If EVERYTHING ELSE is good then you can get away with bad maps but chances are if everything else is good you'd not use bad maps, you'd find help making good ones.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: AtmaBuster on December 21, 2009, 02:40:03 pm
how do i upload an image that shows up as broken on the forums??
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Shadow Kirby on December 21, 2009, 04:30:06 pm
If you really consider mapping to be more important than anything else, you must consider to review your priorities.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Calunio on December 21, 2009, 05:20:05 pm
Quote from: AtmaBuster on December 21, 2009, 12:02:37 pm
this a map i made in aroun 10 minutes pretty horrible compared to other maps ive seen i guess  um the image is showing up as broken

http://file:///C:/Documents%20and%20Settings/hoda/Desktop/MAP1.bmp

 :fogetshifty:
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on December 21, 2009, 06:19:07 pm
Does this forum have a F.A.Q. page?

If it does, I think it needs to be at a spot on the front page where it is obvious enough for anyone to see and never miss.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Vellfire on December 21, 2009, 06:30:13 pm
i don't think gw has to take responsibility for people not knowing how to link to an image
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Corfaisus on December 21, 2009, 06:30:59 pm
Quote from: Calunio on December 21, 2009, 05:20:05 pm
:fogetshifty:

This post, along with what was quoted, made my day.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on December 21, 2009, 06:39:19 pm
Quote from: Vellfire on December 21, 2009, 06:30:13 pm
i don't think gw has to take responsibility for people not knowing how to link to an image

I wasn't saying that they had to.

All I was saying was that they could, if they wanted to. (If they were cool like that)
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Vellfire on December 21, 2009, 07:03:50 pm
cool people already know how to link to images, duh
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Rajew on December 21, 2009, 07:45:22 pm
you gotta upload the image somewhere first (GW Uploader, there should be a "Upload File" link somewhere near the top of your page), then you gotta copy-paste the URL of that uploaded image to the forum in between (http://) tags.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Vey on December 21, 2009, 09:00:58 pm
rajew, I think you misunderstood his question
Quote from: AtmaBuster on December 21, 2009, 02:40:03 pm
how do i upload an image that shows up as broken on the forums??

What you told him would make an image that doesn't show up as broken

And I don't think mapping is that important as long as it just isn't empty spaces. I would suggest figuring out what you want to have on a specific map, like what has to be done in order to beat it, character interaction etc. Then you can design it with these things in mind, and it will give you ideas for some areas of the map.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: VinceP on December 22, 2009, 03:01:35 am
It's not like it matters in the end. Probably 10 people in total will download it, 7 will play it, and maybe 2 will finish it.

..​
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: AtmaBuster on December 22, 2009, 03:52:34 am
It's not like it matters in the end. Probably 10 people in total will download it, 7 will play it, and maybe 2 will finish it.

Yeah i hope even that much to be honest.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on December 22, 2009, 04:19:17 pm
Quote from: AtmaBuster on December 22, 2009, 03:52:34 am
It's not like it matters in the end. Probably 10 people in total will download it, 7 will play it, and maybe 2 will finish it.

Yeah i hope even that much to be honest.

And if you can dream it, then you can most certainly achieve it.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Batistaberg on December 27, 2009, 10:43:08 pm
Quote
I wanna ask is mapping incredibly important in Rm2k3 games
For me it is very important, and to make a good map is really no hard procedure. If I have to walk on an empty map which looks like crap the fun immediatelly goes down for me. It's just an uncomfortabe feeling for the player.
Hint from me: Try to focus on 20x15 areas only (if the whole map is bigger). Because when you fill it while looking at it as a whole you will create lack of details and that ain't no good.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Fujin on December 28, 2009, 11:45:19 am
Haha, I remember when it all used to be about how much crap you could cram into a single map. The divine rule of three tiles, "looks too empty, add some random flowers and rocks"... good times, good times.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Drule on December 28, 2009, 05:27:35 pm
Who cares dude. The only thing that matters is the overall quality of your game, and whether your mapping is going to contribute to that is up to you. No one here is going to be able to give you a definitie answer (or an interesting discussion on the subject).
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Batistaberg on December 28, 2009, 09:08:17 pm
''Overall quality'' includes good mapping?
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Vellfire on December 28, 2009, 09:34:57 pm
Quote from: Deacon Batista on December 28, 2009, 09:08:17 pm
''Overall quality'' includes good mapping?

overall quality means that one feature might be subpar but if the rest of it is good then it averages to good


also "GOOD MAPPING" entirely depends on the game, the wide open desert of shadow of the colossus was COMPLETELY FANTASTIC but in a different game it would probably be completely terrible, it only worked in that specific game


this is just like my argument in that rpg features thread it all depends on the specific game
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on December 29, 2009, 04:07:02 am
Quote from: Vellfire on December 28, 2009, 09:34:57 pm
also "GOOD MAPPING" entirely depends on the game, the wide open desert of shadow of the colossus was COMPLETELY FANTASTIC but in a different game it would probably be completely terrible, it only worked in that specific game


this is just like my argument in that rpg features thread it all depends on the specific game

It has everything to do with context. This is why it is hard to pin an objective basis for critiquing map design in games, regardless of the genre/engine.

A lot of what makes a map good involves the purpose it serves in the game. Sure it more or less involves going from Point A to Points B C or D, but you have to look into it deep enough to ask just what it is you want the player to be thinking about or focusing on during that time.

If a designer has a mind for such things, then he will have the knowledge to apply it to any aspect of the game he is designing. Not just maps. In regard to the question posed by the topic's title, I reckon that means I would be inclined to respond with a "no".

This topic really needs to have a poll in it.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: Shadow Kirby on December 29, 2009, 05:02:30 pm
Quote from: Fujin on December 28, 2009, 11:45:19 am
Haha, I remember when it all used to be about how much crap you could cram into a single map. The divine rule of three tiles, "looks too empty, add some random flowers and rocks"... good times, good times.

Man, I never understood that. Go outside and check your lawn. Is every square foot of it different from the other?
Silly rpgmakers, fearing the void.
Title: Is Mapping The Epitome Of Rm2k3 Games?
Post by: james_the_composer on January 02, 2010, 06:06:22 pm
A tip for mapping, Atma.

Try the style of not making things too wide open spaced. If you make things more like narrow paths (even in a wide open spaced place like a city) you can PACK detail into it and keep adding and adding and adding to one map.