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General Category => Technology and Programming => Topic started by: Swordfish on April 07, 2010, 04:14:32 pm

Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 07, 2010, 04:14:32 pm
What i want to know is at the moment, who is ahead? i mean taking into acount basic performance and motherboard things like SATA 3 and USB 3, i'm asking becuase i've tried looking for some quick look up info and i can't really find what i want to know. Soooo ill ask here.

is it worth getting an i7 or the amd equivlent phenom CPUs or whatever they have.
i'm asking becasue the mobo is dependent on what cpu i go for (and to some degree so is the GPU)

i'm thinking AMD becuase aparrantly intel  mobo's doesn't suppourt SATA 3 and USB3, or at least not propperly.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Carrion Crow on April 07, 2010, 04:19:47 pm
Can you wait a few months?

http://www.siliconmadness.com/2009/09/amd-phenom-ii-x6-coming-in-2010.html
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: `~congresman Ron paul~~ on April 07, 2010, 05:10:08 pm
ugh, get a really fast dual core or a decent quad core, don't waste money on a 6 core processing unit designed for superthreaded rendering and number crunching apps
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 07, 2010, 06:03:48 pm
ah i noticed some about that but i'm still not sure. i've just read a review on an AM3 mobo and it's not looking all that good, tbh except for a few tests it fails against an intel equivlent i5 with the amd being tested with the best am3 CPU atm, still i'm not going to get one just yet, i just wanted some info so i know what to get when i decide to do it, my current rig is still pretty good so i doubt i'll need to update it just yet, it might be 4 years old but it can still run every game that's been out so far at max graphics at a decent resolution.

p.s. i do a 3D art and this intrests me becuase i know more cores = faster rendering.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: everyclear on April 07, 2010, 07:14:56 pm
Just wait until I come out with my homebrew 40 core processor in a few weeks.  You'll be glad you invested early.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 07, 2010, 08:59:03 pm
if you're going to wait for what may be a better cpu you have more options with an amd motherboard. intel currently has the best out if you want to drop a whole lot of cash quickly, but that's to be expected if you want the latest gear
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 07, 2010, 09:43:51 pm
I think ill wait for the hexacore CPU's from amd since that will help in my 3D renderings and i won't need money (since i'll be at home instead of at accomadation)
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: everyclear on April 07, 2010, 10:24:41 pm
because you totally couldn't do that on something current.  Got to have the most cores to support multiple dimensions!  Tool.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Vellfire on April 07, 2010, 11:10:26 pm
correct me if i'm wrong but don't more cores not mean anything useful unless the OS and/or software you're running takes advantage of it?  which a lot of the commercial stuff doesn't yet?
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 07, 2010, 11:25:29 pm
just so you know, offline renderers like lightwave, maya use the CPU to render not the GPU (though now there starting to, the next version of lightwave will use the GPU) so just to retrospect: I do  3D art and this intrests me becuase i know more cores = faster rendering.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 08, 2010, 12:10:14 am
correct me if i'm wrong but don't more cores not mean anything useful unless the OS and/or software you're running takes advantage of it?  which a lot of the commercial stuff doesn't yet?

yep.
i imagine CAD stuff and other pure math programs support higher cores/threas/processors to accommodate multi-cpu and multi-computer setups though.

also thanks for that tidbit, i was wondering why it intrested you, since i see a lot of people that are into gaming don't seem to be intrested. i think the proposed fermi architecture by nvidea supports hardware acceleration in situations like that though, there was some video posted and they raytraced a model car in real time. it was fairly intresting!
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 08, 2010, 01:04:14 am
yep.
i imagine CAD stuff and other pure math programs support higher cores/threas/processors to accommodate multi-cpu and multi-computer setups though.

also thanks for that tidbit, i was wondering why it intrested you, since i see a lot of people that are into gaming don't seem to be intrested. i think the proposed fermi architecture by nvidea supports hardware acceleration in situations like that though, there was some video posted and they raytraced a model car in real time. it was fairly intresting!
ah i watched a movie about that. that's just to show that using a GPU raytracing is getting faster (but not fast enough to use it in real time) in lightwave it can take somthing like 10 mins to render a simple scene with raytracing, that's like low poly, low res, low amount of effects reflections lights etc. it's showing that consumer raytradcing (and raytracing on the GPU) is now viable and that in the future, it can only get better (wow, pun) i had a scene take 30 mins to render one single frame... ah i do have something rendered with raytracing that i did as a poster, i was proud becuase it was my first proper model i put work into and my first attempt at lighting composition i could link if your interested and explain why ray tracing is so desrable as a rendering method if you want.

EDIT: For the record, i would love a dualce CPU am3 mobo so i can plug two hexacores into it, that would be for INSAIN rendering :D (well compaired to what i have now at least, 3X more since it's 3X more cores)
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 08, 2010, 02:30:02 am
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OptiX
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 08, 2010, 02:48:21 am
huh, i thought it wasn't real time raytracing, just faster becuase of what the dude in the video clip said, that you get a composit version when your moving it around and stuff and then when the final picture is taken it raytraces it, but reguardless it still wouldn't be fast enough for high pacing but it show's that it's getting there.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 08, 2010, 03:13:20 am
what's happening is at the silicon level, the nanolevel substrate on which the architecture is constructed specifically for iterates calculations during both pre and post filter analyses and it allows the rendering to be done dynamically at this level based on quantum theoretical stuff (since the pixels are reduced to such a point)
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 08, 2010, 03:34:32 am
Ok, that just went way over my head, i only some what understood that, since when did processing units use quantum mechanics i thought that wasn't doable just yet?
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 08, 2010, 03:58:52 am
uhhhh the new falsetto double jump has allowed it for a fair while but it's one of those things that until the code can come along at a more basic level and facilitate optimisation no-one in their right mind is going to attempt to utilitise it. writing a whole new instruction set isn't for hobbyists on linux
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: dragonx on April 08, 2010, 07:15:13 am
i think after reading this i love you climbtree
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 08, 2010, 07:57:32 pm
uhhhh the new falsetto double jump has allowed it for a fair while but it's one of those things that until the code can come along at a more basic level and facilitate optimisation no-one in their right mind is going to attempt to utilitise it. writing a whole new instruction set isn't for hobbyists on linux
well duh, it requires understanding of CPU architecture and how command sets are added to a CPU circuitry wise and how to intergrate it into a CPU. Currently the most used CPU ever is the ARM architecture, then x86 and it's extension X64, I'm not sure if it's more or less popular then power PC, you also have Solaris is from SUN (the java guys) and umm... i can't remember any more ATM.

the problem with designing a quantum CPU is that current architecture understanding would have to be scrapped and an entirely new from the ground up frame work would have to be implemented along with it's understanding.
i think quantum CPU's are either going to be quantum processing units inside of a more known wrapper style architecture so it's easier to connect to or a hybrid that uses modern CPU architecture but uses quantum mechanics for actual data processing, storage and moving data about (quantum entanglement).
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: reko on April 09, 2010, 09:26:52 am
well duh, it requires understanding of CPU architecture and how command sets are added to a CPU circuitry wise and how to intergrate it into a CPU. Currently the most used CPU ever is the ARM architecture, then x86 and it's extension X64, I'm not sure if it's more or less popular then power PC, you also have Solaris is from SUN (the java guys) and umm... i can't remember any more ATM.

the problem with designing a quantum CPU is that current architecture understanding would have to be scrapped and an entirely new from the ground up frame work would have to be implemented along with it's understanding.
i think quantum CPU's are either going to be quantum processing units inside of a more known wrapper style architecture so it's easier to connect to or a hybrid that uses modern CPU architecture but uses quantum mechanics for actual data processing, storage and moving data about (quantum entanglement).
the problem with quantum CPU design is that the current instruction set of ARM-based architectures are limited to 64-bit transfers on maximum of 4 to 6 cores depending on the specification of the ISO-9001 standard. for example the following code would not work on a quantum CPU:
int main(int argv, char *argv[]) {
    __asm {
        mov     cl,byte ptr [DGROUP:CMD_LINE_LEN]
        or      cl,cl
        jz      Usage
        mov     si,CMD_LINE             
        mov     al,' '                 
        repe    cmpsb
        mov     dx,si
        repne   cmpsb
        cmp     byte ptr [si],SPACE
        ja      skip
        mov     byte ptr [si],NUL
        mov     si,seg DGROUP           
        mov     ds,si                   
        mov     es,si
        mov     si,offset err_fopen
    }
}

the issue is that when the core numbers increases the processor can't guarantee the atomicity of a transfer on the current instruction set implementation, and this can result in a heap corruption which basically means instability, loss of data, and at worst case bsod. The boost foundation has suggested an implementation that would fix this issue, but it's still a work in progress, and it might take a few years for the design to be finalized. but basically the suggestion entails introducing an EBNF-like grammer to the C/C++ languages that lets you bypass the limitations of the current instruction-set (basically it just creates a shared lock on the memory address so only maximum of 4 to 6 cores can access a particular memory address at a given time window). here's an example of how it works:

namespace arm_instr_fix
{
    template <typename Iterator>
    bool instr_complex(Iterator first, Iterator last, std::complex<int>& c)
    {
        using boost::instr::qi::double_;
        using boost::instr::qi::_1;
        using boost::instr::qi::phrase_instruction;
        using boost::instr::ascii::space;
        using boost::phoenix::ref;

        double rN = 0.0;
        double iN = 0.0;
        bool r = phrase_instruction(first, last, // continuous integration of phrase instruction lock
            (
                    '(' >> double_[ref(rN) = _1]
                        >> -(',' >> double_[ref(iN) = _1]) >> ')'
                |   double_[ref(rN) = _1]
            ),

            space);

        if (!r || first != last) // fail if we did not get a full lock
            return false;
        c = std::complex<double>(rN, iN);
        return r;
    }
}

if this suggestion gets approved and manufactures start to adapt it in their products, we could see quantum cpus in the near future.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 09, 2010, 03:55:17 pm
i thought the problem lay in the actual physical structure of the CPU being so differant in a quantum CPU compaired to modern day architecture is what would make it hard, i thought they would implement a completely differant instruction set, so it's simply a matter of limitation and not because it's implemented differant physically?
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 09, 2010, 10:45:34 pm
ugh what? what you're saying makes no sense, re-read the posts
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: everyclear on April 09, 2010, 11:26:47 pm
swordfish do you even know what the word "quantum" means?
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 10, 2010, 04:09:55 pm
It does, according to your post the problem lies with the instruction set, not with how the CPU is built physically. I thought that because a quantum CPU would have to be built differently that they would need to redesign everything from the ground up, but from what i read on your post they wouldn't just need to implement a differant instruction set.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 11, 2010, 02:02:01 am
the hardware has been able to prefix quantum level mechanisations almost by definition since the turn of the millenium but this functionality has been stunted by how difficult it is to code for and limited demand. up until now i think the only utilization was in hardware support for inertial rotations to the third and fourth degree, and it was pretty darn sloppy. with each new process shrink the physical addresses increased exponentially and now it's extremely feasible to start using 'all of the buffalo' economically, the extra money required to write a new instruction set is now minimal compared to the gains in silicon capital (imagine pixel to pixel jump settings within the new core based on fully functioning Riemann zeta based algorithmic decomposition)
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 11, 2010, 04:47:16 am
so your saying that we can do quantum CPUs, it's just difficult and what we have tried wasn't very good... but i thought... ok maybe i should try thinking when i'm not really really really tired. i'ts just i thought it's still relied on electon moving through transisters, not qbits and atomic spins and such.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 11, 2010, 05:33:38 am
...quantum states can be reduced to binary switches
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: dragonx on April 11, 2010, 06:08:04 am
climbtree you got kinda sloppy in that second last post
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: everyclear on April 11, 2010, 06:23:21 am
nobody is perfect
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 11, 2010, 05:06:40 pm
...quantum states can be reduced to binary switches
But what would be the point then since you wouldn't be able to use the full capabilities that quantum supposition gives and it would be ignoring that Q-bits can be more then one state at any time. That's why i said current architecture even re-designed wouldn't work so well for quantum CPU's
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: everyclear on April 11, 2010, 05:47:54 pm
Swordfish are you trying to troll?
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: dragonx on April 11, 2010, 07:55:12 pm
no hes this dumb
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: big ass skelly on April 11, 2010, 08:20:43 pm
I'm not a scientist but nothing he's said has been dumb? Don't be a jerk dragonx
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 11, 2010, 09:16:36 pm
nah he's doing this on purpose:

(https://legacy.gamingw.net/etc/stat.rumandmonkey.com/tests/9/9/6199/25767.jpeg)
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 11, 2010, 09:39:14 pm
I'm not doing anything on purpose I'm just having a debate of sorts if you think I'm griefing then I'm sorry that wasn't my intention.
@everyclear: I'm surprised you haven't realised I'm just ignoring you, i mean i thought you would have got it by the 3rd ignored post; this is the only time I'm acknowledging you.
I've decided to ignore idiots and there ilk instead of acknowledging them; it's funny to see them get worked up when they realise that there being ignored.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: dada on April 11, 2010, 10:55:55 pm

 - -- o <-- everything.


      o <-- your head
     /|\
     / \

Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Brown on April 12, 2010, 12:49:45 am
      o <-- your head
     /|\
     /*\
<-- your balls


 :fogetcool: :fogetcool:
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: big ass skelly on April 12, 2010, 01:24:46 am
Didn't you post that before recently and then delete it Dada? Let me check my diary of gamingw goings-on. Yep, yep, it says here you did. Were you waiting for the right time to use it? I think you picked a good time.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Swordfish on April 12, 2010, 02:45:46 am

 - -- o <-- everything.


      o <-- your head
     /|\
     / \


i don't get it.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: dada on April 12, 2010, 08:54:21 am
Didn't you post that before recently and then delete it Dada? Let me check my diary of gamingw goings-on. Yep, yep, it says here you did. Were you waiting for the right time to use it? I think you picked a good time.
back then I was still naive and under the impression that it was all just a big ruse.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: dada on April 12, 2010, 09:18:08 am
i don't get it.
it means you have the IQ of a fence post.
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: dada on April 28, 2010, 10:23:06 pm
here are all the answers you seek.

(http://wedemandhtml.com/tmp/nonsense_textbox.png)
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on April 28, 2010, 10:27:18 pm
mithril nunchuks?!?
Title: AMD-intel
Post by: everyclear on April 29, 2010, 03:06:47 am
it means you have the IQ of a fence post.
ha ha its funny because its so true