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General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 08:23:40 am

Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 08:23:40 am
I was reading some article about this on a website the other day, and it's something that I think about sometimes. I think it's got something to do with why everybody keeps saying gw stinks now, although that is really just a totally unimportant symptom of what this is.

The article I was reading was all about how we're in a 'golden cultural age', and I don't know how you can possibly measure this but basically the gist of it was how people are always saying how whatever decade was better for music, movies, whatever, but that generally it's never true. I think I agree with that, and none of it is really a revelation or anything I think alot of us know this, even the people who come out with shit like that - it's lazy, it's nostalgia. I think the whole cultural aspect of it is just the way it manifests when people talk about culture, but it's just something that happens to people as they pass from one stage of their life to the next. I already feel it and I'm only 21. Well, I feel myself feeling it and then try to disregard that bullshit as best as I can, if that makes sense.

What I mean to say is if we're talking culture stuff then yeah I think there's a good case to be made that things right now are better than ever. All media can be accessed for free by us westerners, so there's the fact that right now isn't the 2010 really, there are so many people getting into so many subcultures and niches that it can be whatever time you want to escape into. The vast majority of people probably won't be there with you, but would they ever really have been even when that thing you're into was at it's peak? I don't think it's worth worrying about how mainstream stuff is going as long as the stuff you are into is being provided for, and there is so much space with the internet now that I think you can probably find anything. I read it mentioned that TV is going through a golden age now and that is absolutely true. The amount of good TV on this past decade has been so much more than all the stuff on in years past. I'm not talking about Lost - forget about lost, it could have been made in the 60's or any time, but starting from around the sopranos there have been probably like a dozen tv shows that you weren't being made before - breaking bad is on now, there was the wire, there was deadwood, there were some other ones I heard were great but I haven't seen yet. You've even got the crap which was trying new things but it didn't turn out too well - Oz and Dexter. Actually those are both made by the same people, come to think of it. Actually, fuck those shows. TV is so regularly good right now that you don't even need to put up with it.  I don't know of any TV show was actually just pure high quality not just for tv stuff before this time other than twin peaks. I mean you can talk about buffy or the x files I guess but I think those shows are pretty trash, too.

But that isn't really what I was gonna talk about that's just some rambling. What it relates to is that you get alot of people talking about how this or that was better before and it's not true, really. I mean it might be true with some things, but it doesn't mean everything has gone to hell now it just means it's time to move on to the next thing.

I'm 21 and I still reminisce about my teenage years now. They were only a couple of years ago, and I didn't even have a very good time when I was a teenager. By the end of high school I had lost touch with all my friends, they didn't like me and I was just wandering around but it doesn't even matter what actually HAPPENED, I was going to get nostalgic about it anyway because I think it's just a programmed inclination to be attracted to what is known/safe and stuff and it is boring as fuck when you actually try to recapture whatever it was after you get beyond the initial flood of emotion over seeing something you haven't seen in a long time that you used to care about. Because you aren't actually trying to recapture anything other than your feelings, and they probably had very little to do with the object you are using to recapture them.

I want to keep moving on and looking forward to things that are still to come as well as things right now. Nothing is over! I wish I was better at keeping my guard up against ideas that something is over because nothing is friggin over it's just harder to get excited over dumb bullshit now which is actually a good thing because now the really good stuff that's out there is going to start coming in to my life more and more.

cos I'm going to uni in september and I am just mega excited for what I could start doing. I'm gonna get a more level start on that whole thing (this is my second try at uni) and just focus on what I actually want to be doing and actually doing the things I know I should be doing. I hope everyone here is here to hear all about it...

sorry this topic turned out kind of similar to some other ones including ones I made, but I think there's some stuff I wanted to talk about here that I haven't.




Title: how good things are now
Post by: King of Spooks on June 27, 2010, 08:31:51 am
what if this is 'as good as it gets?' -J.nichol
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Marge on June 27, 2010, 09:16:39 am
I know the general thing, but I don't personally feel this practically at all. It's very clear to me even on an emotional level my life is better right now than it's probably even been, and when I look back a few years there are a few things I can say I miss, but those are single aspects of my life then and it's on a rational level. When I think about, it would be nice to have a similar social environment in the university as I had in high school (or the Finnish equivalent), where everybody knew everybody on some level. In the university I've got a few friends and then a mass of people I know absolutely nothing about. But that's an exception I can find when I start to really think about it. Generally when I look back at the things I used to do then I feel no attraction, no nostalgia but sometimes a little repulsion. Not because of self-hatred, but I'm just glad I got over some of those things and am doing something else now. As a feeling, that's stronger for me than any nostalgia.

That of course is much due to things actually going fine for me, but it hasn't all been good. It relates to a sort of personal optimism I have that isn't rational. When I think about the world in 50 years time, I feel optimistic. Make that 5 yeras and that optimism disappears and is replaced by a more balanced realistic view. But when I think about my personal future, the same optimism makes a strong comeback. I have always had and still have a strong trust that my life is gonna be even better in a few years. So three years ago I was thinking "aint' life great, but man it's gonna be even better when I get to university and live on my own etc." so now that those things have actually happened, I study in the uni and live on my own etc., I almost suppose life has to better than it was, because this is after all what I was waiting for then. And that cycle goes on, now I'm waiting to get my masters in a few years and start working on a PhD, damn life must be great then.


--------------------------------------


What are going to study jamie?
Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 09:20:49 am

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What are going to study jamie?

it's called a general arts degree, so i have alot of flexibility in what i end up going for honours in but i'm going to be focusing on film studies and take a few classes in other areas here and there.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: GaZZwa on June 27, 2010, 09:21:54 am
Did you read this article at the AV Club?

Anyway, I completely agree. We have the huge privalege of having access to everything that's come before, as well as the great unknown - the future, so things are always getting better, right?

to bring up the counterargument, however, I totally get it. I think it's a little unhealthy towards art to be always looking backwards and moaning "things were better [when ][/when]", but I get it. For a start, we've all seen a movie or looked at a black and white photo of a band playing live and just "goddamn, if only I was there then". And, I was thinking about this the other day, and there was once a topic here about roughly the same thing, what a good year for music 2007 was. In 2007 there were all these records coming out by bands I loved, there were bands I'd never heard of putting out records that I discovered, I had the money to go see many of these bands live, I was at university, my own band was finally starting to come into our own a bit, my friends were making music that was good...looking back it seems that this was one amazing year. And yeah, there was some really good stuff released, but it wasn't a revolutionary year in the way that people talk about 1977 or 1967 or 1991, it just so happened that a bunch of bands I liked who had been doing their thing throughout the decade put out their best or defining albums in that year. Or that I discovered them in that year, so they seemed new and fresh and exciting to me. Fact is, it's not important. Keep looking ahead. That's important.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 09:26:34 am
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Did you read this article at the AV Club?

yeah i think i clicked a link on imdb. usually the links there are total trash but i guess i thought this one was pretty interesting.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Marge on June 27, 2010, 11:29:52 am
You can't really argue against the fact that through fast and easy information transferring and globalization as a whole, internet being the culmination of all that, all kinds of cultural phenomena can spread in a completely different way than any time before. That's a fact and it's huge advantage. Or not really even an advantage, it changes the whole playing field, it's a categorical leap. It really makes zero difference today if I wanna find an album that's 5 years old or 50 years old, and I live 600km from proper civilization. That really is something new.

But what if we drop that? If we just focus on what's actually new and currently relevant? I don't really watch tv but even I have noticed that tv series have really been living a golden age the past decade. Is this still going on by the way? Did any promising new series come out last year? That's just a side note, I'm curious.

And music then? Of course there all kinds of subcultures going around that I know very little about that are probably pushing out all kinds of good stuff, 2010, the best year of minimal techno in history! Most of that will be niche forever, some may rise to popularity later on. Mainstream then? Quick look at Spotify top 10 looks depressing at first, popular music sucks today, but then when you get top 10 hit singles from '72 it isn't really filled with classics either, most of the stuff is something nobody ever listens anymore, and probably for a reason. But some stuff will live on, and most artists people are getting nostalgic about now were at least somewhat popular in their time as well. I love guessing which now popular artists will be remembered and which will not. Radiohead, yeah, people are gonna listen to that in 30 years as well. Coldplay? Hmm, probably somewhat. Foo Fighters? Nope. Rihanna? Nope. Arctic Monkeys? I think so. Shakira? Could be. Most of those have made their supposedly most memorable records before 2005, so when we are really talking last two years I don't have any idea. For example all these indie bands, Fleet Foxes and whatnot. I haven't really listened to them much, but most of it is obviously garbage, but I would be very surprised if one or two don't live on, and I would be extremely curious to know which ones.

I just reread the opening post and realised jamie is talking more about psychology and less about culture, but I'll post this anyway now that I've written it, this is a cool topic.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 12:42:38 pm
well it was all to do with how people say things about when culture was better generally based on their own nostalgia. even if they weren't there! like i know alot of people (including myself) who kind of let themselves think that music was in a better situation 20 years ago than it is today, i guess because now since ANYBODY can make music that it matters a whole lot less, that it's harder to get to grips with what the heck is going on - but that's just bullshit talking, i think. it's taking a lazy, conservative kind of way of thinking that just because things from the past are easier to understand (and they are only easier to understand because what has been passed down to today is like a tiny fraction of what actually happened), they are better.

and there are peripheral things you learned to attach to that kind of nostalgia that don't really mean anything like say how all old music videos are shot in really soft lighting with blurrier cameras, or are transferred onto video and lose some clarity and stuff like that. it LOOKS old and gives me a little thrill of comfort despite the fact i was never even really around back then? i mean maybe i picked up some stuff when i was like 4 - and picking up stuff like that when you are a kid I think throws people on whatever track they're going on - but i think it mostly all springs out of how you associate stuff like that with just seeming simpler and more important. like nirvana was alot more important to the early 1990's in most people's memory than I suppose they would SEEM right now because you can pretty much choose entirely what part of popular culture you want to spend your time exploring now, and maybe not even popular culture at all, because while I am more or less aware of people like lady gaga i honestly didn't know what she looked like until i just looked it up right now. i couldn't care less about lady gaga because i've been able to totally avoid her in my life besides hearing people put here songs on the radio at work sometimes. i get to avoid all that crap now. I'm off doing my own thing.

man oh man I don't even really know what I just said but I'm gonna call it a post and then post again.




Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 12:51:09 pm
on a smaller scale, nothing to do with media, I think it's just totally ingrained in people to seek out safer, smaller things in the past. I mean that's a really obvious thing to say I know, but I don't think most people ever really even challenge the notion in themselves and it leads to alot of diving into dumpsters of your past to to try grab whatever rotten, slimy piece of garbage you haven't already chewed up. It doesn't even feel that good, you know? Like going back to your home town after having been away for a long time - I know that feeling. I went back and walked around the streets for a while just getting a rush over like 'shit i haven't seen that betting shop in like 10 months! i used to see it every day walking to school!!!' etc but after like 2 days i realised that the whole place was empty now. all my friends were gone, i didn't even talk to them, my home seemed a little sadder because i wasn't a kid anymore so the warmth of crawling back in there was a little less comforting, all the sounds/sights/smells/events of the place had faded away. I'm not saying you've got to leave home and never return - I'm even going back there this autumn - I just mean to say if you are going in expecting to be cuddled just like it feels like you were before, it's not going to happen. Whatever you thought was there never really was, but time passes on and you forget everything that made it seem harsh and remember only the things you understood about that period and that makes the whole thing seem very safe. When I go back I assume I'm going back to nothing, except my family who are actually a continuing source of comfort and support, and I'm going to work outwards from there and start making things happen.


Title: how good things are now
Post by: Hundley on June 27, 2010, 01:01:11 pm
i don't think that the way television has changed over the past ten years is all that you really need to proclaim this era of artistic accomplishment as a golden period. really all television has done is fill the same function radio did roughly around the 40s to the 60s, and to a significantly poorer degree. NOBODY is doing with television what people like orson welles and spike milligan and countless others did with radio. i wouldn't even argue that television has necessarily reached some apex right now. i'm not familiar with a television show made within the last ten years that is as strong as serling's the twilight zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twilight_Zone).

you also have the problem that film is going through its DARK AGES at the moment. the past ten years have been an exceptionally bad period for film. i could only name like two or three people honestly doing significant and/or interesting work out there. more than any other era, film has been completely industrialized, leaving virtually no room for legitimate artistic endeavor. i'd be completely at a loss for words if someone challenged me to name the best film of the past ten years. i'd probably say something like revolver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver_%28film%29) or children of men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Men), which is completely absurd as neither are particularly great movies.

another problem is that a significant chunk of the cultural spotlight is being hogged by the artistic black hole of videogames, which is a medium i don't really think anybody could HONESTLY tell me is of any real significance or merit at this point.

yeah, i just don't see it. every decade has had these cornerstone creative accomplishments that you could point to as the best of that time period, and we've gone ten years without anything really like that. if there HAS been stuff like that, i'd be overjoyed if someone could point it out to me, because i'm not familiar with anything like that.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 01:02:06 pm
i don't mean to say that enjoying memories is a bad thing, because that's just ridiculously harsh and i don't think anybody would even want to try and deny themselves that. i just think it's important not to let ourselves mix that up with seeking out those memories to re-experience them, because they are gone and seeking them out like that will probably just ruin them. sometimes that's a good thing if you need to be woken up. like when i was 14 i used to listen to placebo. so last year i thought 'man, why did i ever stop listening to those guys?' so i checked em out once again and three songs about having sex while pretending to be on drugs later i was cured of giving a shit. so maybe people need to go through a certain amount of seeking out the past to realize what they are actually doing.

something else was, i was out with this person a while ago and she is like 21 one and i was out with someone who she went to the same school as and she kept going on and on about their old school like, how she went to the old school all the time and was going on about old teachers they had and their reputations back in those days and how she's gonna go to the friggin 4 year reunion and i don't want to insult her because she really doesn't deserve it but ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ.

Title: how good things are now
Post by: Hundley on June 27, 2010, 01:02:16 pm
edit: actually no wong kar-wai made in the mood for love (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_the_Mood_for_Love) in 2000, so that's something. still, ONE great movie in a decade is awful.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 01:05:50 pm
Quote
could only name like two or three people honestly doing significant and/or interesting work out there.

you know i wonder what kind of movies you are watching because while i don't know nearly as much as you about this stuff (YET sucker i'm gonna catch up on ya) i've seen like 50 movies this year i really liked and i don't think our standards are necessarily very different?

okay you just mentioned wong kar wai and he'd probably be one of the names i'd mention as an example of someone who is doing good stuff now but i don't know if he'd even be in my top 5 lately because hasn't he fallen off a bit? and there are frigging lots of asian directors going nuts over there right now. there's stuff going on in film!! i mean CINEMAS themselves are packed with 100% pure bullshit yeah but there is stuff that has been coming out and stuff still to come out I am really excited about.

edit: like i'd wonder what your stance is on all this art film stuff that is coming out cos there is alot of it and alot of it is being recieved really well - not that that matters, but i have checked out alot of it by now and some of it i really like. i don't know what to make of some of it but i don't feel comfortable dismissing it. like uh goodbye, dragon inn made me actually laugh by how slow it was but that film was actually kind of creepy too and there was so little said i had to pay attention in a way i usually don't. so like, i'd be ready to listen to someone saying that film stank just as much as someone saying it was the best one they'd seen in a while (although i don't really with either opinion).

in the same kind of area though there is jia zhangke who i think is great and apichatpong 'skibblybipblipple' weerasethakul who has been getting all kinds of awards lately who i like, too. and hou hsiao-hsien who made millenium mambo which i don't think i was that crazy about, but it reminded me of wong kar wai especially like days of being wild or chungking express.





Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 27, 2010, 01:20:47 pm
i am at a slight risk of over-loading this topic.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Hundley on June 27, 2010, 01:38:05 pm
you know i wonder what kind of movies you are watching because while i don't know nearly as much as you about this stuff (YET sucker i'm gonna catch up on ya) i've seen like 50 movies this year i really liked and i don't think our standards are necessarily very different?

okay you just mentioned wong kar wai and he'd probably be one of the names i'd mention as an example of someone who is doing good stuff now but i don't know if he'd even be in my top 5 lately because hasn't he fallen off a bit? and there are frigging lots of asian directors going nuts over there right now. there's stuff going on in film!! i mean CINEMAS themselves are packed with 100% pure bullshit yeah but there is stuff that has been coming out and stuff still to come out I am really excited about.

edit: like i'd wonder what your stance is on all this art film stuff that is coming out cos there is alot of it and alot of it is being recieved really well - not that that matters, but i have checked out alot of it by now and some of it i really like. i don't know what to make of some of it but i don't feel comfortable dismissing it. like uh goodbye, dragon inn made me actually laugh by how slow it was but that film was actually kind of creepy too and there was so little said i had to pay attention in a way i usually don't. so like, i'd be ready to listen to someone saying that film stank just as much as someone saying it was the best one they'd seen in a while (although i don't really with either opinion).

in the same kind of area though there is jia zhangke who i think is great and apichatpong 'skibblybipblipple' weerasethakul who has been getting all kinds of awards lately who i like, too. and hou hsiao-hsien who made millenium mambo which i don't think i was that crazy about, but it reminded me of wong kar wai especially like days of being wild or chungking express.
humor me and suggest some recent titles then, because i've had no luck finding good stuff. i've been finding myself going rather far back for things to watch rather than even bother with contemporary work of late. i don't doubt that there are great things that i'm missing, particularly in light of the fact that i never dug too deeply into asian cinema, which seems to be one of the best places to look right now. but it feels like american film(admittedly the easiest for me to keep tabs on) can be taken out of the equation almost entirely right now.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: thecatamites on June 27, 2010, 03:18:17 pm
I'm not even sure if this decade had any real culture to speak of. I'm not being snippy but it seems like a time of... subdivisions, basically. Maybe this is just INTERNETPERSPECTIVE but it's like everything crawled into its own little niche. Like, uh, I'm sure there are a ton of good art films but I can't see any of them because my local cinemas are all playing Gerald Butler action films. There's a ton of great music but you won't hear any of it unless you actively work to check out all the minute subcategories (shitgaze lol). Maybe this is reactionary thinking etc and I certainly don't want to be dismissive of the possibilities of cheaply-produced-and-distributed art but I think when you're talking about CULTURE MOVEMENTS you have to consider them not in terms of specifics but as general, uh, overarching paradigms (don't hit me) for the whole decade. Basically I think a worthwhile cultural moment doesn't just involve the underground presence of good art, it involves the values of that art shifting the culture as a whole. I'm rambling but basically I think what was worthwhile about previous decades wasn't actually the quality of what was produced but the way it took over the public...cultural...sphere thing so you had PiL on Top Of The Pops and Public Enemy in the charts. Nowadays I'm not sure if that public sphere even exists (and if it does I suspect it's more about Britain's Got Talent and awful reality shows than Dubstep or The Wire or anything people here would hold up as worthwhile). Like I say this is kind of a reactionary/nostalgic way of looking at things in itself but I just think that whatever a GOOD CULTURE DECADE is it would involve bringing people together through that culture and not splitting them into ever-more-arbitrary subdivisons.

Also even when considering the good stuff, that doesn't mean it's all good in the same way! I enjoyed watching The Wire more than Twin Peaks but I don't think it's as interesting a show: it's great but still basically traditional in format, in style, etc. (or not exactly traditional but you know what I mean). There's been some good books but have any of them been as revolutionary as modernist shit from almost a century ago? There's some great bands but aren't they basically an extension or mixing of ideas from previous decades?

I dunno maybe I'm just too pessimistic/thinking about it the wrong way?? Just Points To Ponder anyway  :fogetlaugh: *retreats to cave trips over beard*

edit: aaaa this sounded horrible! basically I dislike nostalgia but I don't think the antidote is to be ahistorical or whatever, and I think if this were really a golden age people would be less defensive about it (every time someone brings up the arctic monkeys it's like WELL THEY'RE GOOD FOR WHAT THEY ARE or THEY'RE DERIVATIVE BUT or something and it always depresses me because I understand the urge to defend your culture against smirking nostalgia dorks but that doesn't mean lowering your standards to whatevers going on at the moment and then saying YEAH THIS IS ME)
Title: how good things are now
Post by: vt trees on June 27, 2010, 03:20:24 pm
I think about this a lot. I love being a part of the first generation to have free, unlimited access to all of the information in the world. Nobody's had anything close to this in the past, ever. (Google)

https://www.adbusters.org/magazine/88/the_coming_barbarism.html
lazy
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Shadow Kirby on June 27, 2010, 04:55:04 pm
film has been completely industrialized, leaving virtually no room for legitimate artistic endeavor.
...
another problem is that a significant chunk of the cultural spotlight is being hogged by the artistic black hole of videogames, which is a medium i don't really think anybody could HONESTLY tell me is of any real significance or merit at this point.


The video game industry has exactly the same problem the movie industry is having; it was completely industrialized. Even worse, video games didn't really have time to enjoy an era of artistic freedom before become a mass producing industry, leaving anything creative on the margin.

There are probably some amazing films made in China, Africa, South America, who knows where, that will never get out of their country because they will never attract the attention of big companies to bring them to the world. Same thing for games but the divide isn't between rich/poor country, it's between games by companies made by focus group trying to sell to a target group and dudes in their room trying to say something through the medium. Not to say you can't find anything interesting to say about AAA tittle (Tom Bissell does a good job at this with Fallout 3, Gears of War, Far Cry and GTA4 in his new book (http://www.randomhouse.com/catalog/display.pperl?isbn=9780307378705) ), but you have to search a little deeper in the cracks of the Internet in order to find interesting games that could be considered as a legitimate artistic endeavour.

Leigh Alexander pointed me to this game (http://www.alexanderocias.com/loved.php) two days ago. It's a game made by an individual with a message or an idea to pass through the specific tools of the medium. I think that can be called an artistic endeavour.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 28, 2010, 08:24:49 am
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humor me and suggest some recent titles then,

okay, a few released from the last couple of years I can think of quickly are:

Platform, directed by Jia Zhang Ke. It's about a traveling stage group in 1980's China and like all of his movies about how the old communist China is morphing into the new open market China and leaving a lot of people behind. I liked this one alot, but another one he directed I also liked is The World, which is about a theme park in Beijing which actually exists and it's slogan is 'experience the entire world without ever leaving Beijing' and it's just about the same theme as the other movie set in this crazy, hollow, bogus theme park. There's also 24 City by the same director, which I think is his most recent movie. I just saw it a few weeks ago - it's like a faux-documentary mixed in with some actual real stories of a factory being closed down in a small town in China. You get the idea with this guy - it's interesting if you give a flying hoot about what's happening in China.

Songs from the Second Floor, directed by Roy Andersson. This guy is really distinctive - he uses pretty much only these very detailed wide shots which are kind of desaturated and look like paintings because there is so little movement in them alot of the time. I really liked this movie - my current avatar is of the stomach of one of the main characters. It's really funny and also pretty cruel and sad sometimes. There's a trailer on youtube but it's kinda crappy, you get an idea of the scope of some of the shots, though:


That director has only done like 3 films and he's 60 or something. I think he only started directing this decade.

And there are the Dardenne bros who make the kind of small, real life movies about people who have pretty shitty lives. I like these, I could list off a whole bunch of them but I guess maybe check out Rosetta to see if you like them. I won't link the trailer cos like alot of these films the trailers are obviously made by james lipton like assholes after the fact of the movie when it gets some awards recognition.

these ones are all kind of slow, sparse kinds of movies. I have been watching alot of that lately though. I watch movies from every time period, like you I go back to find things from decades ago, but as far as good stuff coming out these days that isn't immediately obvious, this is the kind of stuff I have found. i'd talk about it some more but i wanna keep talking about the other stuff in the topic, too.


Title: how good things are now
Post by: jamie on June 21, 2011, 03:48:09 pm
HEY HUNDLEY, DID YOU EVER CHECK OUT ANY OF THOSE MOVIES?

You are officially on call. Time to step up to the plate, champ. The deal is done.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: thecatamites on June 21, 2011, 06:13:20 pm
not sure if i still feel the same way as i did when i posted here last year, maybe because i feel more aware of neat games people are making and good youtube vids that only work in the context of youtube in general and other cool creative shit that probably couldn't exist at any other time and that i feel is legit interesting. there's still a kind of unpleasant sense of an ever-widening gap between this interesting stuff and Wider Culture As A Whole, though. there's always been a break between them but for me right now at least it feels like there's a sense that it's absolutely taken for granted that big new films will be awful, that new big popmusic stuff with at most be good for what it is, that there is really nothing going on at these levels and that you will actively need to FORAGE to gain any kind of sustainance at all. i don't think this has always been the case and i don't think it's a particularly good thing either: or at least not in that it leads to some sense that UGH.. MAINSTREAM WILL ALWAYS BE GARBAGE, DON'T EVEN THINK OTHERWISE which i definitely think is bad news. i saw some video trying to dissuade people from entering Big Games Biz where one of the comments was that people in walmart don't care about interesting or original stuff, that you have to frontload it with spacemarine garbage to hook the 'plebes', and i felt pretty irritated!! what is this stupid selfserving industry hack shit, you can't just airbrush decades of popular experimentation out of the picture, grr... that kind of self-perpetuating bullshit is what's really dangerous about the idea of conceding the 'mainstream' to awful trash, it's an attitude that spreads down to infect all areas with smug & insular toad thinking...

maybe that's just me! there's always some level of self-serving garbage in any attempt to define the creative merit of an age though and i'm definitely not exempt but idk. all the bands playing here are leftover 80s stadium garbage like Journey and Def Lepperd and Chris De Burgh and whoever else, and all the films playing are really fucking abysmal to the point where even listing their names feels like really cheap and obvious parody (YOGI BEAR 3D), and it is increasingly difficult to shake off the feeling of a cultural wasteland. but there is a lot of cool shit that seems to be springing up on the margins in response to this, though, like these guys (http://www.cfcp.ie/) are new and putting on a lot of good stuff and they're not the only ones. also uh it seems fanboyish to say it or whatever but the one exception i can think of for the interesting/massculture divide is in videogames like minecraft and journey and whatever else (also i guess tv shows in the OP but i don't watch much these days so i don't know)
 
so overall i guess my "stance" on the last decade is that of a vague dissatisfaction and my "stance" on the new one is guarded optimism at what seems like in some quarters at least a renewed sense of focus and engagement??  t i m e  w i l l  t e l l . . .
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Ragnar on June 21, 2011, 10:13:20 pm
I agree with Catamites on the FORAGING thing I seriously do not understand how someone can just TV Radio superhero movies 3d cartoons movies spacebook and remain a sane human being. I do try to be like, erm this is probably like the ultimate time in history to be a kid right now with like 5000 3D superhero flicks per month and they will probably FORGE their own nostalgic memories of it being totally awesome and um I lost my train of thought. Like Chronicles of Narnia movies are just the culmination of random musty muppet fantasy movies from the 80's 90's. And erm that's it I can't even fathom how REAL it must seem if you're like 5 right now and watching a Chronicles of Narnia, if like The Princess Bride etc. seemed IMMERSIVE etc. (although I don't think all these 3D CG armies of monsters splashed across the screen in epic CG war movies are immersive at all). And I don't have any delusions that the 80's/90's were incredible but they were more human/flawed etc.? I think someone said every movie TV show made right now like completely understands their target audience in this creepy way like movie explosions made specifically to conform to a fractal grid golden ratio like even stuff that is ok like The Office has like [zoom ][/zoom] just a glorified visual version of laugh track.  And erm sometimes when looking up stuff from the 90's I get this moment of existential terror because Jerry's apartment wasn't shot with perfect HD lighting and I think I see some shadow of something moving. Oh erm maybe we will completely rework our paradigms of what's funny/exciting/fun now that we have the technology that we made the perfect Hollywood chase scene and there is nowhere to go and we feel kind of weird and creepy for being so obsessed
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on June 21, 2011, 11:16:47 pm
we're in a cartoon golden age right now. this generation of kids will be creative geniuses just like us.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Ragnar on June 21, 2011, 11:41:58 pm
I kind of think like the whole Somethingawful culture of GW was kind of the IMPETUS for me making music in the first place. Like horrible internet weirdos doing their marriage proposal on Minecraft etc. and spending 5000 hours making a turing machine in Little Big Planet, like how far the loserness goes, and beyond just mere speculation, having it laid out like that, and anxiety that there is something toxic about the things I like, and making something new I find meaning in. CREATE A SUBCULTURE OR FACE BLOODSHED. No but seriously I am pretty jaded and I want to fill the internet with this terrifying uncanny music than spend a second pretending to have 'fun'
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Biggles on June 22, 2011, 02:18:51 pm
joy has been outsourced. computers, sports franchises and people in advertisements now have the fun. we watch and wonder what it might be like to be picked out by the invisible hand.

just kidding. i drink shitloads of coffee and freestyle in the shower. this week, my flatmates and i solved the mystery of self and played a lot of tennis. culture isn't a bunch of movies and books and shit. it's also brushing your teeth and going to school and breakfast and initiation and failure and weeks and keyboards and paperclips and sweeping the floor and the self and the idea of a mind and almost everything else we ever talk about. it never declines or improves. we thrive and drown in it. decades and high culture are a scam. eat sleep think fight fuck paint walk die. products and identity were tangled up less than one hundred years ago. escape while you have the chance.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Ragnar on June 22, 2011, 04:15:47 pm
don't get me wrong I love doing my own thing and the internet really facilitates that. I've barely even paid attention to TV since like 2007 you mean it's still going on?? I also don't have cable though maybe cable still has some stuff worth caring about. I still need SOMETHING that's this surge of random ideas like TV is and internet does that now so I don't really care about TV

it is really weird actually internet seems like this weird twilight version of watching TV. Like I discover all these funny video clips and new music that exists seemingly nowhere else. Picture of a record against black background while music plays. Totally not caring about dodgy quality or authorship or anything. Youtube/Internet is the revival of that tape I watched as a kid with all the weird commercial parodies and I just thought it came from nowhere while it was actually clips from Saturday Night Live. In my waking life I am a total graphics/cinematography whore but suddenly with the internet I will listen to the fuzziest low bitrate music and a clip of some guy doing something funny that has the video quality of a snuff movie, as long as it's on youtube and I don't have to play it in Windows Media Player or something that says "Buffering..." and the music/movie clips can totally suck but I don't care because at least I chose to do it. I judge the quality of it by some completely different standard from the rest of life and I can't even really tell if I had 'a better time' or not it's just so separated from normal existence

but yeah I think decades are kind of over in a way everybody will hopefully be doing their own thing again within a few years

but yeah I get a certain excitement from things not being available in this fractally perfect form once again like the 90's, not exactly knowing how something was intended to come across and maybe some menace existing in a song/video that wasn't meant to be there

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zlDpAMyq43k
Title: how good things are now
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on June 24, 2011, 04:49:02 pm
I could go at a topic like this at length if I wanted to.

But it's all really capitalism's fault. You can try to make people want things that are more enlightening or more cultural and artistic, but it all boils down to being part of an age where because people can be exposed to pretty much anything, they will always, unanimously, and unfailingly choose to the thing that they want, and there is no level of social intervention or cultural revolution that will control what people want.

I mean it has always been like this, but the only reason that it worked out in the past was because the only times in history were people actually got stuff they needed, were the times where they weren't already getting stuff they want. At the moment though, it is entirely possible to get things you want with practically all the time you as an individual have left on this world. The simple fact of the matter is that this is the one thing that has changed about civilized society, and everything we as a society experience now is because of this.

Anything I say beyond that much is really just me ranting.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Kaworu on June 24, 2011, 07:24:32 pm
watch the century of the self (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Century_of_the_Self). It's a great documentary series about how culture has shifted from what we need towards what we want, and how that outlook's being used to control the population.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: bonzi_buddy on June 25, 2011, 03:41:48 pm
i don't think that the way television has changed over the past ten years is all that you really need to proclaim this era of artistic accomplishment as a golden period. really all television has done is fill the same function radio did roughly around the 40s to the 60s, and to a significantly poorer degree. NOBODY is doing with television what people like orson welles and spike milligan and countless others did with radio. i wouldn't even argue that television has necessarily reached some apex right now. i'm not familiar with a television show made within the last ten years that is as strong as serling's the twilight zone (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Twilight_Zone).

you also have the problem that film is going through its DARK AGES at the moment. the past ten years have been an exceptionally bad period for film. i could only name like two or three people honestly doing significant and/or interesting work out there. more than any other era, film has been completely industrialized, leaving virtually no room for legitimate artistic endeavor. i'd be completely at a loss for words if someone challenged me to name the best film of the past ten years. i'd probably say something like revolver (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revolver_%28film%29) or children of men (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Children_of_Men), which is completely absurd as neither are particularly great movies.

another problem is that a significant chunk of the cultural spotlight is being hogged by the artistic black hole of videogames, which is a medium i don't really think anybody could HONESTLY tell me is of any real significance or merit at this point.

yeah, i just don't see it. every decade has had these cornerstone creative accomplishments that you could point to as the best of that time period, and we've gone ten years without anything really like that. if there HAS been stuff like that, i'd be overjoyed if someone could point it out to me, because i'm not familiar with anything like that.
I'd say both music and film culture in general is living in a sort of a strange phase of no real canon or inherent messages or individuals and i guess a lot of the problem with current musical canons and likewise critique stems from the culmination...... ... well, some kind of elevated focus on DESIGN in all creative outlets than messages or motives. You know, results versus process of the art. Would you find a person making music these days without caring if the results WOULDN'T fit into the sensibilities of the supposed audience? Every artist has an invicible audience he makes his art for and these days the sensibilities and the audience is automaticly assumed to be the larger audience of eg pitchfork or whatever. think about this with James Blake and if you think it's real good then think of the lyrics he fucking sings about contrasted to the sounds and music he makes. who cares about the motives of the artist / for the greater audience and capital / barf barf bad poem. ~~ postmodern man. 
If someone said to me that the surplus of choices has ruined the decade or medium i'd propably stab him in his kidney like a true gypsy but i would agree on the dissonance between effort (something that worked in the 80's to some extent with DIY and actual exploration of popular culture) vs design. Medialization and capital getting into creativity results to design i guess. Who DOESN'T like design but there is a huge difference between art and design and these days you are hellbent to find individuals who wouldn't give a shit on ongoing social media canons and trends formed.

I'm pretty sure you'll see... well, CITIZEN KANE'S of the games in the future IF and ONLY IF!!!! some gifted individual(s) take the medium as their form of expression. Arthur Russell's of games and so forth.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Ragnar on June 25, 2011, 06:49:52 pm
whenever I can't figure out the philosophy/message of a band/movie these days I just assume it's about the illuminati/reptilians/ron paul/legalizing weed
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Moriason on June 26, 2011, 01:46:11 pm
The worst thing humanity ever did was invent agriculture - disease and populations beyond what was ever feasibly 'natural' for us came with it, and perhaps the most dreaded thing of all: The death of egalitarianism.


We're better off than we were the last couple thousand years, but ARE we in fact better and happier as a people now we've traded our small, tribal nomadic and incredibly sustainable existences in the name of competition, self-aggrandizement, etc?


Not saying that's how I feel, just food for thought. Gettin' Jared Diamond up in this shit.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Malad on June 27, 2011, 12:12:50 pm
I'd choose toilet paper over leaves any day
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Biggles on June 27, 2011, 12:34:28 pm
it's unfair to equate pastoralism with a lack of technological 'advancement'. as far as i know, there's little evidence to suggest that agriculture lead to the nice bits of technology we take for granted. certainly, not having agriculture would vastly change the kinds of technology people develop, but whether it would be less effective is an entirely different question. it seems like a lot of people's ideas about this question are coloured by their views of commercial products as positive and life-enhancing. products as The Exciting New Thing only really arose about halfway through last century as a strategy for coping with excess production. some people think they were a terrible invention, whereas others argue that utility is utility whether or not the initial want comes from the TV.

i mean personally i'm very attached to farms and the idea of farms. my mother grew up on a farm, i spent a lot of time on my grandparents' one as a kid, and i like the imagery associated with them. it would be irrational to assume that farms are therefore happiness production centres for #1 humanity advancement. the more i think about it, the more i feel like my ideas about farms are are constructed based on nostalgia and picture books about how the cow goes moo and not much else. it's "duh mum, meat comes from the supermarket" all over again.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Moriason on June 27, 2011, 12:54:34 pm
it's unfair to equate pastoralism with a lack of technological 'advancement'. as far as i know, there's little evidence to suggest that agriculture lead to the nice bits of technology we take for granted. certainly, not having agriculture would vastly change the kinds of technology people develop, but whether it would be less effective is an entirely different question. it seems like a lot of people's ideas about this question are coloured by their views of commercial products as positive and life-enhancing. products as The Exciting New Thing only really arose about halfway through last century as a strategy for coping with excess production. some people think they were a terrible invention, whereas others argue that utility is utility whether or not the initial want comes from the TV.

i mean personally i'm very attached to farms and the idea of farms. my mother grew up on a farm, i spent a lot of time on my grandparents' one as a kid, and i like the imagery associated with them. it would be irrational to assume that farms are therefore happiness production centres for #1 humanity advancement. the more i think about it, the more i feel like my ideas about farms are are constructed based on nostalgia and picture books about how the cow goes moo and not much else. it's "duh mum, meat comes from the supermarket" all over again.

I say agriculture because agriculture is the moment humanity left its nomadic roots behind it - it's also the moment we started managing and controlling crops, and maintaining pools of water and what not to maintain the crops. The large numbers of people that began to live together, all situated in one place which was something that hadn't happened before, we began to develop new diseases from things like mosquitos living in the small ponds that would emerge in our crop fields, get in the crops, etc. etc.

Basically, settling down and tending to crops meant that others could attend to things they hadn't concerned themselves with before due to lack of time, AND they the crops needed protection. If we're all staying in one place, there's things to be done. Houses to be built (builders), storage to keep those crops and other collected items (potters), protection for those crops (first versions of armies). What this led to is something that ALSO never really existed much beforehand, caste systems.

The argument is that if we had never settled down, we may have remained in small, nomadic tribes of people that, while in their own right "savage" in ways (not any different than modern ways really, they killed to protect their tribes just as we do, etc.), did have a certain respect that was essential for a small group of people living together, understanding that to survive they all needed each other and had to work together.

There is tons of evidence to support claims like that, and dozens of books written on the subject (A great one of which is Guns, Germs and Steel by Jared Diamond which is where I lifted the core functions of this idea in the first place, and where he goes into the concept that settling down created diseases which we never faced when travelling in small tribes and have slowly been chipping away at us for thousands of years now in LARGE numbers). I'm not going into it EXACTLY perfect, but I figured this sort of outlook is important to consider when you're discussing matters such as this.

Again, not really my opinion. I'm a 20th century product just like the rest of us, I grew up with and love technology - and I weep for a cage, just like you.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: big ass skelly on June 27, 2011, 01:09:56 pm
Who would listen to anything someone called Jared Diamond has to say
Title: how good things are now
Post by: tuxedo marx on June 27, 2011, 01:12:08 pm
zander diamond
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on June 27, 2011, 01:55:16 pm
and I weep for a cage, just like you.
stop it
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Moriason on June 27, 2011, 02:24:01 pm
stop it

But it's a good quote! Not like I just made it up, nor is it like it doesn't describe the human condition.

I post like once a month these days, every time I do you quote me basically just to make some dumb one or two-word statement that literally just suggests I shouldn't post here on the site I've been posting at for the last 9 years.




stop it :(​((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Vellfire on June 27, 2011, 03:20:42 pm
I don't really see the point in arguing what human nature would be like if we hadn't started farming.  It's not like we're going to go back to being nomadic and there's nothing we can do about what happened that long ago.  Not that it's not interesting reading how agriculture affected us but it's the bit where you actually feel a little mad at humanity for it that is totally nonsense.


edit: when I say YOU I don't mean you specifically gloomy djinni just I see this come up every now and then and I don't get it


I mean with something so vital to how our world is shaped, how can you even try to predict how things would be now if we hadn't started farming.  There's no telling what bad things could have happened as a result of it, but all we have are the bad (and good) things that happened as a result of the path we did choose.  It's not worth speculating over.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Moriason on June 27, 2011, 04:11:38 pm
I don't really see the point in arguing what human nature would be like if we hadn't started farming.  It's not like we're going to go back to being nomadic and there's nothing we can do about what happened that long ago.  Not that it's not interesting reading how agriculture affected us but it's the bit where you actually feel a little mad at humanity for it that is totally nonsense.


edit: when I say YOU I don't mean you specifically gloomy djinni just I see this come up every now and then and I don't get it


I mean with something so vital to how our world is shaped, how can you even try to predict how things would be now if we hadn't started farming.  There's no telling what bad things could have happened as a result of it, but all we have are the bad (and good) things that happened as a result of the path we did choose.  It's not worth speculating over.


I agree, actually. That's why I didn't bring my own opinions into it, I just brought that up for sake of argument since this topic's question is heavily based around that concept. I'm not mad at agriculture/the shifts that came with it whatsoever. I just try to keep a level-headed view on my existence, where I/we are currently in the human timeline and how we got here (which is a fascinating subject).

At the end of the day, who knows if we'd be better off or worse off? The ball that is society has been rolling for so long now that to distinguish particular stages of how 'good' life is (or especially how life was BEFORE it) at the time is impossible. It's always based on perspective and understanding of one's own standing in the world - it's easy to love a world when it's the only world I've ever lived in (For example, a lot of 'primitive' tribes never knew they were primitive until 'developed' people came over and told them all the things they were missing). I really just brought all that up because it gets to the heart of the question that's being asked here: How good are things now, and I felt like it was a perspective that wasn't really being explored here. Where we are now, AND how 'good' things are is directly related to the existence of agriculture, so I felt it was worth throwing that in there if you REALLY want to get analytical on that sort of question.

MY actual opinion on this? I love this world and I think we live in one of the most exciting times in history to yet come. But just the same, I get that I WOULD feel that way considering it's the time I live in. But I've got absolutely no problem with that, that's life and I'm a fan of the ride.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Vellfire on June 27, 2011, 04:16:04 pm
MY actual opinion on this? I love this world and I think we live in one of the most exciting times in history to yet come. But just the same, I get that I WOULD feel that way considering it's the time I live in. But I've got absolutely no problem with that, that's life and I'm a fan of the ride.

I like this attitude a lot.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Biggles on June 27, 2011, 09:56:51 pm
I don't really see the point in arguing what human nature would be like if we hadn't started farming.  It's not like we're going to go back to being nomadic and there's nothing we can do about what happened that long ago.  Not that it's not interesting reading how agriculture affected us but it's the bit where you actually feel a little mad at humanity for it that is totally nonsense.


edit: when I say YOU I don't mean you specifically gloomy djinni just I see this come up every now and then and I don't get it


I mean with something so vital to how our world is shaped, how can you even try to predict how things would be now if we hadn't started farming.  There's no telling what bad things could have happened as a result of it, but all we have are the bad (and good) things that happened as a result of the path we did choose.  It's not worth speculating over.
well humanity as a whole is only ceasing to be nomadic around now and a large part of it is IMF structural adjustment related afaik. it's not really a matter of "going back" because there are contemporary nomadic societies. there are also contemporary hunter-gatherer populations. on a basic level it's a question of whether or not we're being assholes for assuming that we're living an objectively better life than these people. this is complicated by the fact that agriculturalists often make things hard for hunter-gatherers. i asked my flatmate who has done some papers on it and he said that hunter-gatherer societies are generally considered to be relatively sustainable and nutritious in principle. i don't have papers to cite on that though. part of the reason i point this out is that some people (particularly researchers from cultures that were hunter-gatherer and then HI IT'S THE BRITISH EMPIRE WE HAVE GUNS) will blow up at you if you say it's "going back" to return to this kind of way of life. (a friend of mine said it by mistake and he got an hour long lecture.)

part of the reason i think it's interesting is that there could be cool things we could learn from pastoral and hunter gather people. looking at other people's ways of life could help us build better technology and live more sustainably. it's also important as far as development goes. some sustainable pastoral societies have been fucked up by the introduction of capitalism based on the belief that it's axiomatically better freemarket freemarket. i mean it's not like you have to care but i think pretty much everything is interesting so yeah.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on June 27, 2011, 10:59:36 pm
But it's a good quote! Not like I just made it up, nor is it like it doesn't describe the human condition.

I post like once a month these days, every time I do you quote me basically just to make some dumb one or two-word statement that literally just suggests I shouldn't post here on the site I've been posting at for the last 9 years.




stop it :(​((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((((
wow it was a joke and I don't remember doing anything like that because I don't even know who you are. it's because you have one of those halloween names, but I can't even see your original name by clicking on your profile. you can link me to these posts if you want tho.

Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on June 28, 2011, 12:03:41 am
Quote
protection for those crops (first versions of armies)
this isn't true. inter-tribe battle is something that existed long before agriculture. agriculture is what made it possible for dense walled cities to be built, but then they weren't protecting crops so much as the people who lived in them.

but regardless of that, to me this Diamond guy's stuff sounds like it's probably dumb theoretical bullshit not at all based upon science and only adhering to historical evidence when convenient. trying to REASON THROUGH LOGIC AND A LIMITED UNDERSTANDING OF SCIENCE AND HISTORY what's natural for humans is a complete waste of time/masturbation, depending on how much it entertains you. people almost invariably immediately think back to neo/paleolithic times, which stems from a poor understanding of evolution and is entirely erroneous. people were no more 'natural' back then than they were in the middle ages. the hunter-gatherers were people responding to their surroundings, as all people have in any 'unenlightened' age, arguably any age at all. humans are also extremely complex creatures, and what seemed natural back then is likely entirely different from what's thought to be natural today. really, if you follow the history of the human conception of nature, you'll find it has changed greatly through time (not in one linear direction, either) and varies strongly from culture to culture. interestingly, regardless of how the perception of it has changed, it has always been a subject of fascination. this relatively recent preoccupation with nature's therapeutic/wholesome/roots properties has not always existed, and is just another manifestation of the human fascination with nature. personally, I think this manifestation comes from the contemporary obsession with finding some nifty SECRET TO LIFE that will make everything wonderful and happy and full of life and energy--the same reason why people adopt all these absurd diets (raw food, atkins, paleolithic), watch doctor oz, join cults. really, all they're doing is responding to the stresses caused by modern capitalism

sorry I didn't break that up into paragraphs!! read it anyway!!

concerning sustainability, it's what velf said: really doesn't help us out at all. if someone could figure out a way that it does, that'd be neat.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Warped655 on June 28, 2011, 02:04:05 am
I'm with earlchip on the agriculture thing. The idea that we'd be better off had we stuck to nomadic tribes without agriculture is 'eye-rolling at stupidity' at best and groan worthy at worst. IMHO.

What I'd say though is I'm a little surprised that agriculture isn't 100% automated at this point. Kind of wish it was. Actually kind of wish most stuff was automated.

On the topic of culture, I definitely think people simplify culture to much from the past. but there ARE general majority cultures for the past decades. In fact I personally think there is a sort of pattern (at least for the US), but a pattern that is starting to fade with time and technology. 10's were warring, 20's were roaring, 30's were depressing (with calls for change) 40's were warring, 50's we were rich again, 60's and 70's had more calls for change and a bit of war.

Then the 80's and 90's as far as I can tell culturally-wise were cynical, bored, and apathetic. I also think the past 10 or so years have largely been a technology focused age culturally. But maybe I'm just biased because I spend far too much time on the internet. Hopefully soon, we'll have less dividing lines culturally. Eventually merging into a singular mega-culture or something because of the ubiquitous-ness of connective technology. *shrugs* maybe not. Maybe I'm just full of bullshit. I think that why a lot of people think that culture is 'weaker' today though. because we are becoming all more like minded to a extent, making vastly different cultures disappear or merge with others.

Another problem that I actually have on the concept of 'culture' in the first place is people usually complain they someone might not have enough of it or excuse behavior because its just a different/our culture.

Don't drink heavily during parties? That's not very American! Don't participate in asinine culturally established events or holidays? That's not very American! You separate yourself from our culture! (Ok, maybe some of these aren't completely American only, they are still culturally enforced)

Kid sticks hand into glove of bullet ants for hours on end for the third time to experience horrible agony and probably develop serious nerve issues in the hands and arms itself? Its just their culture! You have no right to judge!

I hate that sort of shit. But at the same time I have just as much issue with people who try and be counter culture just for the sake of it. And I'd go into that as well but I think that's already pretty well tread ground. In short: Trying to be the opposite of culture is still letting culture effect your decisions. Usually in very illogical ways.

When making decisions. I try to ignore culture, not conform to or complete oppose it. I'd like to think I try to do what logical or smart or productive. and now I'm rambling so I'm going to shut up.

Title: how good things are now
Post by: Biggles on June 28, 2011, 09:01:12 am
oh i didn't notice that there was a 'human nature' discussion going on. yeah, human nature is silly. afaik it's a pointedly western obsession, much like the obsession with the idea of a mind or consciousness as separate to the body. i don't think anything i was saying human nature based. i also assume that earlchip wasn't really responding to my post but yeah. nature. hahaha. aeroplanes are natural.
warped655: you can't escape culture. unless you are unconnected from other people and language as a whole, it colours most elements of your life. i use the word culture in a wider sense though. not just like popular culture or high culture.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on June 28, 2011, 01:40:43 pm
I only browsed over these posts. I read the description of Jared diamond's stuff, which seems to be based on the idea that nomadism is a more natural way of life for humankind. at least I assume so, I hope he didn't write a book based solely upon a useless sustainability argument. regardless someone said human nature and I think it applies to most discussions on whether humans would be 'happier' or better off living/eating/having sex like cave men. at least in western society, it has become a pretty pervasive thought that humans were better off and more natural back then, and that's pretty much bull. bull for the reasons people commonly come up with at least
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Biggles on June 28, 2011, 02:43:54 pm
yeah. i mean Russell blamed it on Rousseau's idea of the 'noble savage', but it's silly whoever came up with it. it's clear that pastoral and hunter-gatherer people are not cave men or cave women or savages. they're contemporary people, who frequently (to the best of my knowledge) have ways of life that are coherent and stable and sustainable where they are. this doesn't mean that living like them is 'natural' for us or even that it would be beneficial where we live. similarly, there is no reason to assume without evidence that our way of life is better, or would help these people achieve some supposed betterment. i do think though, that we can probably learn some things from each other. i definitely remember a public radio interview with an australian who married into a nomadic group and felt that westerners could learn from some of their ideas. i think she was also actively helping to introduce some western medicine to the group, since that has pretty clear benefits. condoms and things also iirc. anyway i'm sure y'all already know. i'm just kind of infodumping to clarify my position.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: bort on June 28, 2011, 02:52:49 pm
yeah. i mean Russell blamed it on Rousseau's idea of the 'noble savage', but it's silly whoever came up with it. it's clear that pastoral and hunter-gatherer people are not cave men or cave women or savages.
when is it clear 'savages' last existed?
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Biggles on June 28, 2011, 11:12:54 pm
around when racism was last acceptable in academic discourse, i guess!

i mean yes clearly i believe in savages haha ok
Title: how good things are now
Post by: big ass skelly on June 29, 2011, 12:09:01 am
when is it clear 'savages' last existed?
Heh... maybe have a look in ya own united states congress

or something. A post like that.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on June 29, 2011, 12:22:41 am
this isn't england with all your houses and shit, no one here cares about congress except when the news calls them a lame duck
Title: how good things are now
Post by: big ass skelly on June 29, 2011, 08:32:58 am
What do I say for a post like that. the white house?
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Barack Obama on June 29, 2011, 08:36:50 am
all that hunter-gatherer romanticism is a bunch of horseshit that really only gets taken seriously in university halls, nobody but a bunch of shitty anthropologists think that humanity was better off prior to shit like modern medicine. Clinging to that garbage seems like more of a symptom of a boring and unfulfilling life more than anything else.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Biggles on June 29, 2011, 11:48:23 am
doesn't seem like any of the anthropologists i know have boring and unfulfilling lives. they'd also agree that romanticising hunter gatherers is bullshit though. i do too!
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Barack Obama on June 29, 2011, 12:11:19 pm
it's a generalization. all of that deep-ecology and anti-civilization stuff typically takes hold among anthropology types and/or misanthropes who hate themselves and others because of their boring suburban life. it's a stupid posture at it's most benign but incredibly dangerous and antisocial at its worst.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: dada on June 29, 2011, 01:41:41 pm
all that hunter-gatherer romanticism is a bunch of horseshit that really only gets taken seriously in university halls
A lot of anarchistic ideas that I've read about online, even the good ones, tend to be similarly intellectually distant in that they're not practical to implement until you accomplish a million other things. Like abolishing the state. Nice idea, but it will only lead to a massive collapse of everything until you can, at the very least, build some sort of framework to fill the void once you do so. Some people that I've talked with about that either don't seem to realize this or just aren't interested in thinking in practical, a-to-b terms.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on June 29, 2011, 02:30:24 pm
they are opposed to all organized thought
What do I say for a post like that. the white house?
maybe, or something to do with a local government. nothing gets people more riled up than a proposal to reduce their parking spaces

edit: I had a guy in summary call me a malefactor with "no consideration for my fellow human beings" for not parking in a space as he saw fit (I was only being polite to him)

dok is our resident anti-civilization anarchist
Title: how good things are now
Post by: tuxedo marx on June 29, 2011, 02:59:01 pm
if someone had called me a malefactor with no consideration for my fellow human beings i'd shake his hand and give him a write-in for the next election. they know.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Faust on June 29, 2011, 06:27:35 pm
Quote
A lot of anarchistic ideas that I've read about online, even the good ones, tend to be similarly intellectually distant in that they're not practical to implement until you accomplish a million other things. Like abolishing the state. Nice idea, but it will only lead to a massive collapse of everything until you can, at the very least, build some sort of framework to fill the void once you do so. Some people that I've talked with about that either don't seem to realize this or just aren't interested in thinking in practical, a-to-b terms.

It's why it's a faulty concept and those that preach it are, frankly, naive and ill-suited to discussions like this. I've had people tell me about a "Chaocracy" before, where people are chosen entirely randomly day by day to run the state. What a wonderfully egalitarian principle, until you realise that most people are actually idiots and don't have the skills, intelligence, or basic worth to govern our lives (and indeed our societies DO need governance, otherwise order breaks down and everything is infinitely shittier than it is already). For some reason certain individuals see this allowing everymen to have significant influence over important matters as being BETTER than people trained and suited for doing the job. Sure, there are/will be comments along the lines of "LOLS our governmant suxor already, how dis worse?", but in actuality I haven't noticed significant danger to my person in the current society that I inhabit. Allow Joe BNP, Mrs. Can'tspell, and Fred "I hate sinners" Gospelman to be randomly selected to make policy and BAM, that situation changes quite a lot.

Also fuck hunter/gatherer societies. Civilisation is about more than just surviving. Why the hell would anyone EVER propose this as a valid alternative, let alone a better one, to the current?
Title: how good things are now
Post by: dada on June 29, 2011, 09:57:47 pm
dok is our resident anti-civilization anarchist
Not anymore as I recall it.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: dada on June 29, 2011, 10:21:22 pm
It's why it's a faulty concept and those that preach it are, frankly, naive and ill-suited to discussions like this. I've had people tell me about a "Chaocracy" before, where people are chosen entirely randomly day by day to run the state. What a wonderfully egalitarian principle, until you realise that most people are actually idiots and don't have the skills, intelligence, or basic worth to govern our lives (and indeed our societies DO need governance, otherwise order breaks down and everything is infinitely shittier than it is already).
I don't get why some people prefer to think of society as being a mathematical construct that you can perform equations on to manage its statistical properties. I actually think anarchists tend to be smarter about at this than, say, mainstream US libertarians, because they tend to be more self-conscious about it, whereas libertarians genuinely believe that destroying government will solve everything. Libertarians tend to see the abolishing of government as an end in and of itself whereas to the more reputable anarchists like Chomsky it's more like an eventual result of doing other things. I'm lookin' at Diet to see if I'm somewhat right on that.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on June 29, 2011, 10:54:50 pm
chomsky is just as dumb as anyone else
Title: how good things are now
Post by: dada on June 30, 2011, 01:23:24 am
chomsky more like chimpsky
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Barack Obama on June 30, 2011, 06:00:58 am
Chomsky is a pretty brilliant guy and it's pretty sad that he's probably gonna be gone in like 5-10 years

IDK, "anarchist" is a pretty broad category that encompasses a lot of different approaches from anti-civ fantasy garbage & isolated conspiratorial bombthrowers, to historically relevant movements/organizations like the CNT in Spain and the IWW in the US. A lot of self-identified anarchists I know are some of the most intelligent and dedicated people I've met in my life but I also know a lot who are dumb as a bag of hammers.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on June 30, 2011, 04:23:36 pm
Qualifying anything into broad categories using 'words' such as "anarchist" or "civilization" or even "dumb" is invariably going to lead to generalizations among any number of things that may actually have very little in common.

It only works that way because our biologically crafted brains were built to make communicating information as efficiently as possible. It's all about the various contexts in which that interchange of information transpires throughout such an ultimately limited lifetime filled with various such experiences.

In that sense, everyone is as dumb as anybody. Chomsky isn't even special enough to single him out on who he is as dumb as, and the only thing dumber is even having to ask the question in the first place.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: dada on June 30, 2011, 08:33:43 pm
Qualifying anything into broad categories using 'words' such as "anarchist" or "civilization" or even "dumb" is invariably going to lead to generalizations among any number of things that may actually have very little in common.

It only works that way because our biologically crafted brains were built to make communicating information as efficiently as possible. It's all about the various contexts in which that interchange of information transpires throughout such an ultimately limited lifetime filled with various such experiences.

In that sense, everyone is as dumb as anybody. Chomsky isn't even special enough to single him out on who he is as dumb as, and the only thing dumber is even having to ask the question in the first place.
(https://legacy.gamingw.net/etc/i53.tinypic.com/2dn9lk.gif)
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Barack Obama on June 30, 2011, 10:46:36 pm
It only works that way because our biologically crafted brains were built to make communicating information as efficiently as possible.
not really...
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Farren on July 02, 2011, 08:52:17 am
chomsky is just as dumb as anyone else

why? why do people keep posting shit like this without even another statement to back it up?
Title: how good things are now
Post by: Biggles on July 02, 2011, 11:33:28 am
sidepart moustache posting is justified antirationally through the inherent phenomenological self-authority of the author. it is only through the pre-reflective self-conscious truth that the post can be, and indeed needs to be justified.

(it irks me too)
(someones gonna ugh this post :D​)
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on July 02, 2011, 07:06:15 pm
why? why do people keep posting shit like this without even another statement to back it up?
not worth it
Title: how good things are now
Post by: gargonherd on July 23, 2011, 02:14:10 pm
Chomsky is a pretty brilliant guy and it's pretty sad that he's probably gonna be gone in like 5-10 years


This is by no means an insult to you, or anyone really, but I think this is an interesting point. The thing a lot of people I know can't seem to differentiate is that Chomsky is a brilliant person, but his political ideology isn't. To be fair no particular political ideology is even nearing perfect but instead of abolishing all the work towards the current structure in favor of a non-hierarchical system based upon some of the most flawed, idealistic aspects of communism is kind of counter-intuitive. People only view these subjects as binary: they're smart, or they're not. They have the right idea, or they don't. The thing is almost all philosophies have some valid basis but the actual implementation these ideas require isn't usually possible or effective with most people. People get generalized: what works for one person won't work for another. And that's why no system can truly be perfect- because perfection is defined by the individual and unless all the people are exactly the same no one will come to a unanimous conclusion.


I've been thinking about this a lot because I recently got back from a trip to Baltimore where I was staying in a townhouse with a group of about 7 punks. Almost all of them were anarcho-communists and I think it's interesting to note that they all had personal disagreements about how this revolution would work and how it would be handled afterwards. If after hundreds of years with (now) millions of people working to improve our system, and very slow progress, what leads them to believe abolishing all that and replacing it with some infrastructure they can't even agree upon would just work? Everyone wants to think they have an answer to the major world issues but ultimately it's something we have to spend a lot of time analyzing and trying to make better, not just a simple question with an answer. You can make things better for most people, but you won't please everyone.


Ultimately I think these are the best times to live in as the original subject of this thread was. I know plenty of people who discuss the individual being alienated by technology, government, etc. but it ultimately is just romanticizing over abstract ideas of the past that, in reality, never were much better in the first place. Many people are so pessimistic about the future but all I can see is the same improvement we've experienced over the course of our duration- only now it's advancing quicker than ever. I am excited to see what things time brings even if they're not always the greatest- because what purpose does greatness have if we can't contrast it against the struggles?


I am glad this thread exists because even if I don't necessarily agree with everything said 100% it is still being put out there and is giving me something to think about.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: crone_lover720 on July 23, 2011, 03:37:18 pm
welcome, nice avatar!

I don't disagree with your feelings on chomsky's ideas about government, but I disagree with part of your reasoning. the concept of not being able to please everyone is insignificant, and kind of leaning towards libertarian thinking, where terrible people try to excuse horrible shit by saying it's what the people want. what people want is so controlled by big business, the media, marketing, and culture/pseudoculture that it's a pretty terrible determinant of what would be GOOD for everyone. philosophy is pretty much the same thing. the times change, and so do people. the only semi-reliable information comes from scientific data, which is still left up to the motivations of the individual to gather and interpret

I know CHIMPsky calls his ideas "libertarian socialism" or something like that so I'm not sure how well "doesn't please everyone" applies, so if it doesn't apply to his ivory tower philosophical drivel my post still applies to communism other ideas about government

if you say "chomsky is brilliant, but his political shit isn't", you must like his linguistic work, his ability to put together pretty sentences, or you have a different idea of what makes someone brilliant. I call him dumb because he's a big baby playing around with his intellectual tinker tots for a living, and people, for various reasons, are so willing to change his diaper and breastfeed his philosophical ego. it's all garbage as far as I'm concerned. his linguistic stuff could have been a little interesting, but apparently it has all been a big waste of time? not totally sure, but I'm not inclined to look it up.
Title: how good things are now
Post by: gargonherd on July 23, 2011, 06:13:10 pm
Thanks, I do a lot of sprites like this so I'm glad you like it! I spend a lot of time on it.


Yeah, that's fair enough. I didn't think of it that way so much, but that's actually a good point. The culture of the time and the influence of other people plays a role way more than what people actually want deep down even from personal experience. If an idea isn't present in your culture, there isn't really any demand for it. This gets into language ultimately where if you can't express an idea you can't really understand it entirely. The whole thing with Chompsky is that he's interesting in his philosophy on linguistics and obviously is a bright person (to me at least) but I really don't agree with him as far as a lot of his political views go, and even the social implications on some of his linguistic writings. I really don't feel like I have to agree with him entirely to give him a degree of credit as an influential linguist and smart guy overall, but I see where you're coming from. A lot of intellectuals alienate others with an inflated sense of worth that really makes it hard to relate with them on any level really. Of course there are always people willing to eat it up and continue buying into it so as you say, they're only feeding those peoples' egos. I think Chompsky is a pretty damn smart guy (even if some of it is squandered) but I can understand what you mean.