Gaming World Forums
General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: Ryan on October 26, 2007, 05:50:36 pm
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http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/10/25/israel.gaza/index.html
this is pretty horrible! i'm not exactly sure of my position on the Israeli-Palestinian dispute, but shit like this is just terrible. there's absolutely no justification for punishing the regular citizens of Gaza, even if there is a large terrorist/insurgent presence there.
man, kk4/doktormartini are gonna have a field day on this one but fuck this is disgusting
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That's pretty crazy.
So is this statement:
According to figures compiled by the Israel Defense Forces, approximately 800 rockets were fired from Gaza into Israel from June to September, compared with approximately 500 during the same period last year.
...talking about rocket attacks like they are housing prices or something. It's crazy that something like that is just an accepted statistic. Something does have to happen - though I am not condoning this power outage.
What is the beef in that area, anyway?
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This kind of mass punishment is counter productive and is used to create more tension and hatred. Israel is a socialist state and cannot exist without an outside entity to provide unity for the population. The whole friggin' situation there is terrible. There are also a lot of unseen and things that rarely get seen in the papers, especially in the US news.
The people in Israel are good people, and so are the Palestinians, their leaders and the political ideology they espouse however is despicable.
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This kind of mass punishment is counter productive and is used to create more tension and hatred. Israel is a socialist state and cannot exist without an outside entity to provide unity for the population. The whole friggin' situation there is terrible. There are also a lot of unseen and things that rarely get seen in the papers, especially in the US news.
The people in Israel are good people, and so are the Palestinians, their leaders and the political ideology they espouse however is despicable.
A socialist country? Oh god... You SOOO have no idea what you are talking about.
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when did we get a doktormartini2???
Other than that though, this is a pretty dumb move, people(doktormartini) are just looking to fuel the LOL ISRAEL fire............
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Didn't Israel hand over the gaza strip to the palestinians anyway? why would they continue powering it?
guh how is this even so bad? they're keeping important places powered, it's just the houses. THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO CHARGE THEIR CELLPHONES??
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Israel is a socialist state and cannot exist without an outside entity to provide unity for the population.
You have no idea what socialism is if you think this. Isreal is a parliamentary democracy.
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I find it more amazing he compared Israel to Oceania from 1984, as if Big Brother hook nose jew is perpetually providing conflict so that he can maintain his ZOG. seriously, who the fuck seriously thinks Israel NEEDS to be hated by the entire muslim world just so they can get sympathy and maintain order.
then again apparently no one else seems to notice this anti-semitic shit but myabe it's because I'm just so goofty ^_^
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Didn't Israel hand over the gaza strip to the palestinians anyway? why would they continue powering it?
guh how is this even so bad? they're keeping important places powered, it's just the houses. THEY WON'T BE ABLE TO CHARGE THEIR CELLPHONES??
guh maybe because it's leaving thousands with no power?? yeah they won't be able to charge their cellphones, but they also won't be able to REFRIGERATE FOOD/MEDICINE? i mean seriously you are blind as shit if you don't see why this is a problem
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guh maybe because it's leaving thousands with no power?? yeah they won't be able to charge their cellphones, but they also won't be able to REFRIGERATE FOOD/MEDICINE? i mean seriously you are blind as shit if you don't see why this is a problem
Well majority of Palestinians can't get medicine and the food they have is limited...
Not much else to say than Israel sucks. Not a good move on their part...get the fuck out of Gaza and the West Bank =o)
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guh maybe because it's leaving thousands with no power?? yeah they won't be able to charge their cellphones, but they also won't be able to REFRIGERATE FOOD/MEDICINE? i mean seriously you are blind as shit if you don't see why this is a problem
well the people on the gaza strip are relatively new, and it sounds like they're mostly young rocket launchers. they're given warning that their power will be cut and there's still power in the surrounding palestinian powered places???
my first though was LOOTING and RIOTING like in america but i don't know how stuff like that goes down in the middle east.
it just sounds to me like the power company is saying "hey, we're re-routing our power so you guys are gonna have to find a new company. we'll leave it on for a bit though, and until your hospitals and crap are sorted"
this doesn't seem like it's even a war thing.
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well the people on the gaza strip are relatively new
The Palestinians that have lived there pre-Israel (before 1948) and now...some have ancestors dating back to Biblical times. You get farmers who have a family farm that goes back generations upon generations upon generations.
In case you didn't know, Palestinians were one of the groups of people who heard Jesus deliver The Sermon on the Mount (according to the Bible).
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Thanks for stabbing the Middle East in the chest again, Israel. This is another example of bullshit foreign policy by the highest level of government fucking over its people and the people of neighbouring countries!
Seriously. The fact that the Israeli government doesn't realize that this is a bad idea (or does and forges ahead anyways) is appalling. There are lots of brilliant political minds to come out of Israel, how is it that they can continuously make AWFUL fucking decisions?
How hard is it to say "hey, I know you guys killed some of our people, but here is some land we took from you back and some food to give to your starving people. Oh, you don't want it because you hate us? Well, we'll just leave it here on this table then, and go back to our homes. If it's not here when we get back, we'll understand!".
I would never be pro-terrorism, but there is a far greater chance that the terrorism in Palestine will stop once the Israeli government stops raping Palestine then the Israeli government stopping their slow but steady schemes (lol) to dominate their region once terrorism stopped.
This is a pretty ridiculous quagmire, and if so many people on both sides weren't such assholes to one another then it would have been settled fifty years ago.
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The Palestinians that have lived there pre-Israel (before 1948) and now...some have ancestors dating back to Biblical times. You get farmers who have a family farm that goes back generations upon generations upon generations.
In case you didn't know, Palestinians were one of the groups of people who heard Jesus deliver The Sermon on the Mount (according to the Bible).
That's cute, Doktormartini. Thanks for sharing.
Palestinians did NOT EXIST before the 20th century, because they're arab refugees with no culture of their own.
I am not saying they don't deserve their own state, but they're certainly not getting one until they agree to recognize Israel as a legitimate authority.
Also, Jews have been living in Israel since biblical times too. What's more, there have been Jewish colonists in Canaan since 1891 when Theodore Herzl wrote his book "The Jewish State"
They bought and farmed swamp and desert-land into what it is today.
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Also, Jews have been living in Israel since biblical times too. What's more, there have been Jewish colonists in Canaan since 1891 when Theodore Herzl wrote his book "The Jewish State"
They bought and farmed swamp and desert-land into what it is today.
They didn't buy the land they went in and took it. The Jews went in with pieces of paper claiming the farm land was theirs (even though the family may have owned the farm for generations) and if the Palestinians were lucky they would then get jobs on the farm.
Here read some quotes from Israel's first prime minister, David Ben Gurion:
“If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti - Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?”
“We must use terror, assassination, intimidation, land confiscation, and the cutting of all social services to rid the Galilee of its Arab population.”
“We must expel the Arabs and take their places.”
Keep in mind Palestinians Christains, Arabs, and the Jewish population lived together in piece before the huge migration of EUROPEAN JEWS came. Even to the point of going over and celebrating other religious holidays with people.
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That's cute, Doktormartini. Thanks for sharing.
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It is also very awful that people are being killed by rockets.
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It is also very awful that people are being killed by rockets.
Yes I agree. Living under a military occupation makes you kinda mad though (at least I would be). Granted it shouldn't happen anyways.
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Anyone who disagrees with anything Israel does is a filthy anti-semite who should be shot Doktormartini, the jews (even WHITE non-arab jews) lived there since Jesus's times and therefore only them deserve to live there and nobody else
It's such a shame that there is so much anti-semitism in the world!
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The Palestinians that have lived there pre-Israel (before 1948) and now...some have ancestors dating back to Biblical times. You get farmers who have a family farm that goes back generations upon generations upon generations.
In case you didn't know, Palestinians were one of the groups of people who heard Jesus deliver The Sermon on the Mount (according to the Bible).
when israel handed back the gaza strip i doubt people poured back into their traditional family farms they abandoned, which is my point. the people that are settling in now are probably still settling in. I really doubt not having power for a while will make much difference!
also how expensive is a rocket???
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when israel handed back the gaza strip i doubt people poured back into their traditional family farms they abandoned, which is my point. the people that are settling in now are probably still settling in. I really doubt not having power for a while will make much difference!
also how expensive is a rocket???
They are under a military occupation what do you expect?
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Thanks for stabbing the Middle East in the chest again, Israel. This is another example of bullshit foreign policy by the highest level of government fucking over its people and the people of neighbouring countries!
Seriously. The fact that the Israeli government doesn't realize that this is a bad idea (or does and forges ahead anyways) is appalling. There are lots of brilliant political minds to come out of Israel, how is it that they can continuously make AWFUL fucking decisions?
How hard is it to say "hey, I know you guys killed some of our people, but here is some land we took from you back and some food to give to your starving people. Oh, you don't want it because you hate us? Well, we'll just leave it here on this table then, and go back to our homes. If it's not here when we get back, we'll understand!".
I would never be pro-terrorism, but there is a far greater chance that the terrorism in Palestine will stop once the Israeli government stops raping Palestine then the Israeli government stopping their slow but steady schemes (lol) to dominate their region once terrorism stopped.
This is a pretty ridiculous quagmire, and if so many people on both sides weren't such assholes to one another then it would have been settled fifty years ago.
By the way, I forgot about this argument.
You are an utter idiot because you clearly talk without informing yourself.
Even if Israel stopped retaliating, it is OBVIOUS terrorism would not stop. Because the WHOLE PROBLEM is that the terrorists DO NOT RECOGNIZE Israel as being a LEGITIMATE country.
Also, Doktormartini... What farm-land? There was no farmland before the immigrations, it was all desert.
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when I read a lot of these post, I really can't help to think how narrow minded some of you are, to simply label it in black and white with such ease...and some of you feel so convinced in what your saying, even though its full of errors on every level.
Whatever, sucks for those people though, I wish them the best.
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Why can't those people live in PEACE? Aren't they all arabs?
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Why can't those people live in PEACE? Aren't they all arabs?
I'm assuming that was a joke but...no.
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Summary:
Doktormartini: Israel does some bad things.
Everyone else: LOL NO. UR stupid.
Do you guys even know what the fuck your talking about of are you basing your entire train of thought on the fact that you don't like Doktormatrini? You people need to grow the fuck up, really. Look beyond your narrow fucking viewpoints.
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The Israel-Palestine conflict is a waste of time, regardless of any claim to moral superiority a side might make. It simply is not going to stop until there is a politically compatible government for both sides (in like a million years) or one of the sides is destroyed.
US involvement would be futile and would inevitably prolong the violence.
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Summary:
Doktormartini: Israel does some bad things.
Everyone else: LOL NO. UR stupid.
Do you guys even know what the fuck your talking about of are you basing your entire train of thought on the fact that you don't like Doktormatrini? You people need to grow the fuck up, really. Look beyond your narrow fucking viewpoints.
do you even know why we all fucking dislike doktormartini?
hint: it's because he preaches in just about every semi-relevant topic (comparable to your dicksucking of paul/libertarianism) on how evil israel is, and has pretty much ridiculous opinions on everything. and instead of actually providing a somewhat intelligent/credible source, he posts some ridiculous 9/11 truth website or www.ihateisrael.com/fuckingjews
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Summary:
Doktormartini: Israel does some bad things.
Everyone else: LOL NO. UR stupid.
Do you guys even know what the fuck your talking about of are you basing your entire train of thought on the fact that you don't like Doktormatrini? You people need to grow the fuck up, really. Look beyond your narrow fucking viewpoints.
Not used to two sided discussions, are you? If there where more who took his stance it wouldn't seem like trolling, now would it? No. You are probably right. They are just being narrowminded. Fuck them for not agreeing with you or Doktor.
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Even if you don't like someone, even hate them, there should be a respectful discussion of opinions. Disrespect is how things degenerate into pointless and time consuming flame wars. I am a member of various other forums where flame wars have pretty much crippled the effectiveness of the forum and as a result some very terrible new legislation was passed under out noses before we got a chance to raise hell.
I don't care if you dislike the guy, but just hear him out. Then when if what he's said is fucking stupid nail him on it. IMHO it just seems that you're dismissing what he says because it is being said by him (which will most likely happen to this post because I, KK4, wrote it).
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Even if you don't like someone, even hate them, there should be a respectful discussion of opinions. Disrespect is how things degenerate into pointless and time consuming flame wars. I am a member of various other forums where flame wars have pretty much crippled the effectiveness of the forum and as a result some very terrible new legislation was passed under out noses before we got a chance to raise hell.
I don't care if you dislike the guy, but just hear him out. Then when if what he's said is fucking stupid nail him on it. IMHO it just seems that you're dismissing what he says because it is being said by him (which will most likely happen to this post because I, KK4, wrote it).
could you for once actually engage in debate instead of dodging anything that's not the softest of a softball question
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I've noticed most discussions I take part in turn into shit storms, and I would like to avoid that. I've pretty much said my peace on the issue but will continue to observe until something catches my interests.
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so basically you just ignored anything that you didn't agree with
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So I should provide a reliable source that the Palestinians are treated like shit?
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So I should provide a reliable source that the Palestinians are treated like shit?
everyone knows they're treated like shit. i was referring more to the whole 9/11 Truth shit you're into and the other genuinely wacky stuff
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I usually support Israel, but I see how cutting off electricty to Gaza might be counter productive to stabilizing the area. I don't see what else the Israelis are supposed to do when they're having rockets launched at their cities, aside from react punitively. Its the kind of thing that you can't just let happen until it dies down because they are out of rockets.
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basically doktormartini is the only person I've seen fail at convincing people the US has an unhealthy interest in Israel.
I have an urge to wear a yarmulke and chant Hava Nagila when he posts.
Even if you don't like someone, even hate them, there should be a respectful discussion of opinions. Disrespect is how things degenerate into pointless and time consuming flame wars. I am a member of various other forums where flame wars have pretty much crippled the effectiveness of the forum and as a result some very terrible new legislation was passed under out noses before we got a chance to raise hell.
no, there shouldn't. the problem with this opinion is it raises the belief that there are not only JUST TWO VIEWPOINTS to an issue but that both viewpoints are legitimate and deserves to be heard.
I'm not talking to you because you're a moron but to anyone who thinks discussion is possible with some of these people; it's UNFAIR to honestly debate something that a non-monster would regard as true.
if Martini hadn't bungled his way in here screaming about Zionists, this would have been a normal news topic, maybe with suitable discussion, but now I'm almost tempted to compensate for his fuckery and become a zionistic troll posting about how the jews SHOULD rule everything.
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so basically you just ignored anything that you didn't agree with
I believe you're making an assumption without really understanding what I am trying to say. No, I don't ignore anything that I don't agree with. However, I pay attention to the manner in which information is presented and if it is presented in a defamatory/disrespectful and combative way I think that the person most likely isn't someone who I would like to have a discussion with and fade out. I am very big on respect and politeness, and much of this activity clashes with my view of what should characterize discussions about important topics. That isn't to say that I can't be rude, combative or disrespectful, but when discussing an issue I would like to avoid such things because peaceful discussions, imho, are more productive than shouting matches. I'm more than happy to explain myself if asked in a respectful manner to do so, and I will also ask others to explain their positions in a respectful manner.
I'm not talking to you because you're a moron but to anyone who thinks discussion is possible with some of these people; it's UNFAIR to honestly debate something that a non-monster would regard as true.
This is exactly what I am talking about.
The situation in Israel is very complicated and has a history that stretches back into the biblical days, and I do not think that you guys are seriously taking this into consideration and are just attacking each other, and I do not believe that's productive at all. Things are not black and white, and both sides have done some pretty seriously fucked up shit. However, it must be asked who benefits from all of this. Neither the people of Israel or the Palestinians will benefit from this, because such an action is only going to foster more negativity and continue to perpetuate the violence.
Think of the kids here ( and no not in a Mrs. Lovejoy kind of way), the Little Israelis are growing up in fear of being blown up or killed by the Arabs, and the Palestinians are growing up under the boot of oppression and collective punishment. Either side who asks, "Why me, why am I being targeted" is going to hate their perceived enemy and the cycle will continue when they grow up and there will be no peace.
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By the way, I forgot about this argument.
You are an utter idiot because you clearly talk without informing yourself.
Even if Israel stopped retaliating, it is OBVIOUS terrorism would not stop. Because the WHOLE PROBLEM is that the terrorists DO NOT RECOGNIZE Israel as being a LEGITIMATE country.
So I guess, instead of acting out of good faith, they should continue to launch larger and larger attacks against one another? That will fix the middle East, man, I'm sure of it. I didn't mean to say that terrorism would magically stop if the Israeli government stopped being such douchebags, I meant that perhaps the attacks would quiet down MAYBE ONLY A LITTLE TINY BIT which would still be a GOOD thing because less people would be dying.
But hey, fuck me for thinking that less people dying is ever a good thing, right?
No, wait, fuck you for assuming that because the terrorists DO NOT RECOGNIZE Israel as being a LEGITIMATE country that the more moderate people who support (or even tolerate) terrorist radicals who are launching the attacks. The problem with terrorists isn't that they're bad people (because if that were the only problem, they'd just be regular criminals) it's that they are organized and funded by other groups, and they have an agenda. If you remove any of that funding or make any of them reconsider their agenda, that will almost certainly mean lives saved, even if it is only a few.
So fuck you for saying that I am an idiot who is "uninformed" because I don't have a solution to the Middle East crisis and just want to see less people dying and a more viable backdrop for peace.
edit: KK4 and steel, take your shitfest elsewhere. While I agree with steel here, I don't want to see ever topic turn into a public debate between you two faggots (well, one faggot).
double edit: I just realized my post was pretty mean but Lord Kamina was mean to me =(. Anyways, if he responds then we'll probably just be flaming each other, so I'm sorry I was so mean, let's continue to be friends (or friendly acquaintances or whatever) outside this topic!
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Wow, what a shitty topic. I honestly lost a lot of respect for some of the members here. It is almost impossible to have a serious topic that is free of stupid ignorant comments. I've come to accept that (it's the internet, what can you expect?)... But I'm just going to give a fair suggestion to everyone here that you should always speak with an open mind and look at facts before you spout garbage.
A couple of people come to mind, but to avoid defensive responses and a flame war, I just won't mention who. You guys do realize that it's this very ignorance that allow things to get as bad as they are. The whole Palestine and Israel is just example.
The issue amongst these people is VERY complex. You really would have to read about the history of Palestine and Israel to get a base to even begin to comprehend things. It gets even more complex with other countries involvement in this whole skirmish.
This feud did not just recently begin if that is what some people believe. It's a well known fact that Israel has broken many international laws and have not been penalized in anyway yet at all. You got to understand that the top dog in this whole thing is Israel. Palestine, militarily does NOT compare at all. Is suicide bombing of public places in Israel wrong? Yes, it most definately is. However, I don't think it's fair for anyone to sit here and judge these people that are clearly being suppressed in more ways then one. But hey, "They attack our public so we have to protect ourselves". It's an endless card that will be played time and time again and the problem will not be solved.
The news media networks in the United States is absolutely terrible. Seriously, just analyze the small things and you'll get the bigger picture of what they're promoting. A good example that anyone of us can do is just listen to the choice of words used, the tone, the imagery, and the conviently left out details. You guys should all take a media course once in your life, it would improve your awareness.
I'll try and get some information for you guys so you can have a better understanding of things. To really form a fair opinion on things, you got to look at all the details and facts. Don't just form an opinion on something without taking as much issues as you can into consideration.
I'm almost sure none of us can relate to the hardships that is happening everyday there. The least we can do is try are best to understand the situation without ridiculing it.
KK, Doktormartini, you do have some good points sometimes. But you have to understand that your strong opinions are not viewed the same in other people's eyes and can not be forced upon anyone. The best you can do is try to point out examples as to why you feel the way you do openly. No matter how credible you are, people tend to ignore opinions that are too one sided.
Hopefully an agreement will be made so this suffering can just stop. The only reason I side with Palestine is because the land distribution issue will forever be a problem and both sides will claim the lands. Israel is really the top dog here, as I said. They have the ability to get so much outside help and are far superior when it comes to political influence as well.
Desperate times calls for desperate measures. If a country does not have the means to defend themselves. There will always be groups formed to do just that, try and defend their country. The problem is Palestine will never compare to Israel militarily so terrorism will be there ONLY option (not that it is right or anything).
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The situation in Israel is very complicated and has a history that stretches back into the biblical days, and I do not think that you guys are seriously taking this into consideration and are just attacking each other, and I do not believe that's productive at all. Things are not black and white, and both sides have done some pretty seriously fucked up shit. However, it must be asked who benefits from all of this. Neither the people of Israel or the Palestinians will benefit from this, because such an action is only going to foster more negativity and continue to perpetuate the violence.
Think of the kids here ( and no not in a Mrs. Lovejoy kind of way), the Little Israelis are growing up in fear of being blown up or killed by the Arabs, and the Palestinians are growing up under the boot of oppression and collective punishment. Either side who asks, "Why me, why am I being targeted" is going to hate their perceived enemy and the cycle will continue when they grow up and there will be no peace.
For the first time ever I am seeing you spout a sensible post, and I can NOT believe it.
Kaempfer, the problem is that the people funding the terrorists ARE the people in power and THEY TOO believe Israel shouldn't exist.
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It's shit like this that makes me tend to favour the Palestinian side of things. Israel seriously pisses me off sometimes. Of course, it's a complex situation, and I try not to take sides. But, I'll admit, growing up with a lot of Arabic kids may have biased me toward the Palestinian side of things, a little bit. Plus, I always cheer for the underdog.
One day, there will be peace. It will be brought about by comedians and artists. And, believe it or not, I'm actually half-serious.
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Just to clear things up if people are wondering Ahmadenijad didn't say wipe Israel off the map he said get rid of the Zionist regime.
Also Macubex for prez '08
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Kaempfer, the problem is that the people funding the terrorists ARE the people in power and THEY TOO believe Israel shouldn't exist.
Yeah, I understand the sad reality of that. But they might not always be in power, and if moderates somehow make it to the top and are not faced with "Israel is throwing bombs at us, what do we do?" but instead "Israel wants to talk, what do we do?" then I think the stage will be set for some real progress. I am not saying that peace will magically happen, but eventually you have to stop (or at least restrain yourself) if you want you enemy to listen to you, or your enemy's children to listen to your children. I understand that Israel wants to defend herself, but it's things like this (cutting off power) that go beyond defense and into the realm of overt belligerence. If doing something makes people who are not directly affected think "wow, what a dick move", then the people who are direct affected will obviously have a very strong reaction to that.
I'm sure Israel had perfectly sound reasons for doing this, but when you spend your life being shot at and displaced and listening to anti-Israel propaganda, you don't look at the reasons behind the actions, only the actions themselves. It only takes one major event to galvanize a person, to take them from predisposed hatred to active aggression. And if both sides keep launching them, then more and more new people will be brought into the fold, and that's always a bad thing.
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Sadly Kaempfer, The moderates who do manage to come to power don't stay in power for very long because they're replaced by hard liners and/or assassinated. It's hard to say "Let's talk about things" when people are blowing themselves up in retaliation for retaliations for retaliations of attacks that happened in 1917 or earlier. When a group is attacked their collective consciousness says that there is a threat and so logic is preempted by the fight or flight response. When people attack, you don't say "I wonder why they're doing this." Instead we grab a gun, rock, knife or sharp stick and say "Let's do this shit!" and then rush in screaming "LEEEEEEEROY JENKIIIIIIINS" and fuck shit up even more.
Post 9-11 is a perfect example, after the attacks we didn't say "hmm, there should be a reason why our buildings were just blown up and 3k just died. I wonder what we did to someone to get them so pissed off." But instead we said something along the lines of "KILL'EM SONS A BITCHES!" and the rest is history. Now imagine having to deal with attacks and reprisals to the past 80 or so years (still recent history when they are still mad about something that happened in 325BC) and you'll realize how hard it is for a peacemaker to come to power and how easy it is for a meathead with a Kalashnikov, questionable ideals, fussy logic and a unsettling lack of trigger control to come to power.
I think it's all basic psychology stuff really.
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sweet I'm glad we all became experts on international politics.
here's a wikipedia link.
this is ridiculous.
DOESN'T ISRAEL KNOW IT WILL GET PALESTINIANS MAD????? UGH MORE VIOLENCE????
WELL ITS JUST LIKE HOW PEOPLE WORK....THEYRE ALL JERKS
for fuck's sake why did everyone suddenly decide they can figure the ramifications of shutting off the power way better than the Israelis!!!
something tells me they might know how the palestinians will react.
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I was reading through this topic and handing out warns just now. I thought at some point that I should lock it when I'm done but it seems that things settled down somewhat, so I'm just going to leave it open for now.
I myself don't really have an opinion on this because of all global conflicts, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is the one that I know the least about. I really just know that Israel was declared independent in 1948 and has been in territorial conflict with the Arabs ever since, waging countless wars in the meantime. It doesn't seem to me like it's going to end soon.
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Sadly Kaempfer, The moderates who do manage to come to power don't stay in power for very long because they're replaced by hard liners and/or assassinated. It's hard to say "Let's talk about things" when people are blowing themselves up in retaliation for retaliations for retaliations of attacks that happened in 1917 or earlier. When a group is attacked their collective consciousness says that there is a threat and so logic is preempted by the fight or flight response. When people attack, you don't say "I wonder why they're doing this." Instead we grab a gun, rock, knife or sharp stick and say "Let's do this shit!" and then rush in screaming "LEEEEEEEROY JENKIIIIIIINS" and fuck shit up even more.
Post 9-11 is a perfect example, after the attacks we didn't say "hmm, there should be a reason why our buildings were just blown up and 3k just died. I wonder what we did to someone to get them so pissed off." But instead we said something along the lines of "KILL'EM SONS A BITCHES!" and the rest is history. Now imagine having to deal with attacks and reprisals to the past 80 or so years (still recent history when they are still mad about something that happened in 325BC) and you'll realize how hard it is for a peacemaker to come to power and how easy it is for a meathead with a Kalashnikov, questionable ideals, fussy logic and a unsettling lack of trigger control to come to power.
I think it's all basic psychology stuff really.
Now, you are saying relatively-sensible things. And what you are saying is pretty true. Assasinations of peace-pursuing people have happened on both sides.
Also, you really need to stop spouting this "Palestine is the underdog" shit because, really... They've got a smaller army... But, have you EVER taken a look at a map of the middle east?
(http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/29585/MiddleEastMap1.JPG)
Do you honestly think the Palestinians have no "outside support"?
And Steel... I don't presume to know the ramifications and/or consequences to Israel's actions. I am just stating my point of view as a person who is more than just fairly informed on the history of the conflict.
And seriously, just about everyone wants peace. But as long as ONE PERSON does not want it, and has resources to make bombs or shit, it's just not going to happen. Another one of the main problems here is that Palestinians' stance (Since the trouble ones do not recognize Israel) is "Fuck you Israel, give us Jerusalem and all your territory."
And that is just NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. The point of negotiations is to establish a win/win situation. As long as there's Palestinians in power saying "I win, you lose." an agreement won't be made.
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Just to clear things up if people are wondering Ahmadenijad didn't say wipe Israel off the map he said get rid of the Zionist regime.
Also Macubex for prez '08
he still denies the holocaust, focuses on provoking other countries at the detriment of his own people, and doubts terrorist involvement in 9/11
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What exactly is your point Lord Kamina?
None of those neighbouring muslim countries help Palestine much at all. Also, aside from Iran and maybe Syria, they don't really compare militarily to Israel either. I'll admit though, Iran is basically the only middle east nation that is warning United States to stay out of the middle east exusing them of them of foul play. I don't blame them at all either, United States never do anything without an agenda up their sleeves. They are the most calculative super powers around man.
Saudia Arabia and the whole United Arab Emmitrate in general are fucking spineless too. Instead of helping their neighbours they do trades with on a daily basis - They build resorts, high-tech infrastructure and strategies on how to increase their oil revenues and their GDP. It's like they live in their own little world, while so many are dying everyday around them... I find it completely pathetic.
I bet you didn't even know that a lot of Arabs are actually racist to a lot of muslims nations aside from like Yemen and a few countries other middle east countries, lmao.
You also would probablly be surprised to know that one of the biggest supporters of Palestine is Russia. They've trained many of the people of Palestine and provided them with rockets and other explosives. I guess you can always count on Russia to automatically choose the opposite side of Israel or the United States.
Oh and Ryan, Ahmadenijad is one strange and wonky dude man I'll admit. However, he is much more educated then Bush and a lot of the members of the Bush Administration. Him questioning the whole holocaust thing is his own problem, however dumb it may sound. Personally, I'm sure the holocaust did happen but I still have a lot of questions and remain skeptical about the deathtoll and other statistics. I think what he is just doing is pushing the whole Zionist control of the media thing to the extreme. It seems he is completely consumed by that idea. Frankly though, I would not be surprised if he was actually right though.
I don't really trust Ahmadenijad entirely though don't get me wrong. Some of his points are really great and others are a little iffy. I will make my OWN judgement on him myself through my own analyzation of his actions and words. I will not blindly follow the words of United States, Israel, or anyone else for that matter.
Btw, you guys do know who the biggest terrorist in the world is right?
The United States... God bless them, and no place else, LMAO
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Oh and Ryan, Ahmadenijad is one strange and wonky dude man I'll admit. However, he is much more educated then Bush and a lot of the members of the Bush Administration. Him questioning the whole holocaust thing is his own problem, however dumb it may sound. Personally, I'm sure the holocaust did happen but I still have a lot of questions and remain skeptical about the deathtoll and other statistics. I think what he is just doing is pushing the whole Zionist control of the media thing to the extreme. It seems he is completely consumed by that idea. Frankly though, I would not be surprised if he was actually right though.
Ahmadenijad's education is relatively on par with Bush. Bush graudated from Harvard, and Ahmadenijad graduated from the Iran University of Science and Technology. I don't know where you got the idea that Ahmadenijad was more educated! Not to mention, uh, Ahmadenijad denies the holocaust, believes a 16 year old girl created nuclear energy in her own home, believes in a worldwide Jewish conspiracy, and coincidently doubts terrorist involvement in 9/11.
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Damn, I really need a crash course on middle east history/geography... I don't even know WHAT Israel and Palestine are. That being said I wont make comments...
However, this issue begs the question; if Israel and Palestine are not exactly friends... Why is was Israel providing power to Palestine to begin with?
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Lmao, you believe Bush is a harvard graduate?
He most definately is, on paper. I bet you didn't know that it's VERY hard to fail at harvarrd. Why? Because people don't pay up $50,000 or more a year to fail. There is a system setup to help as much as people pass even though they don't even deserve it, I know 4 people personally that graduated from harvard and they all told me this on seperation occasion (they don't know each other either). Plus the fact that he can't even pronounce anything correctly or construct a damn sentence himself...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mi49tvs8jp8
They are not laughing with him, trust me. Do I need to say more? He has no clue what he is talking about, period. Compare that to the speech of Ahmadineja at the U.N.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXZ4OFtI8Gw
There is no comparison, I'm absolutely sure he understands what he is talking about too.
About the terrorist involvement in 9/11? Why the hell can't he doubt it? He isn't the first person to either. Although it is highly probable that it WAS a terrorist act, I believe it myself. You can't rule out the fact that it probablly wasn't a terrorist attack.
Bin Laden isn't as powerful and resourceful as United States paint them. Infact, many of his videos he made about the Al Qaeda boot camps had hired goons to run around with AK's. A lot of the citizen in Afghanistan admitted this fact themselves.
I know I sound real negative to United States or Israel and all but I'm actually quite neutral. I just can't stand the fact that Bush comes on T.V and constantly says "Evil Doers" and so on. If you only knew the tract record of the United States man... Panama and the war on drugs, CIA activities, Somalia, the list goes on and on.
They put a video of a dog being gased in Afganistan allegely by Al Queda. Did you know the United States used to gas PEOPLE 10-20 years ago? They also have a habit of sticking their nose and fingers into everything. They're motto seems like it will always be "If your not with us, your against us."
Did you guys know that the whole "Invasion of Iraq for it's oil" was planned many years ago by one of the Bush's Administrators? The fucking guy basically made up a whole plot and exuse to say Iraq has weapon of mass destruction so let's go get him (and their oil). He wrote a paper about this a few years before 9/11. Low and behold 9/11 happens, a perfect catalyst to execute this brilliant plan. Too bad it blew right back in their face.
Iraq has the third largest reserves of oil in the world estimated to be around 112 Gigabarrels. Do you know how much that is? One gigabarrel is basically a Billion barrels. Iraq has about 11-15% of the world's oil found supply, easily enough to sustain United States for quite sometime. It's even cheaper over there because of the labour costs as well over there. This was just too juicy for Uncle Sam to pass up lol.
Oh I also really really hate the term Anti-semite. It's actually makes no sense when applied to arab people and the people of the middle east in general. The root word by defination is used to describe the people of the middle east, including BOTH Arabs and Jewish people and their language. I will never accept that word as a term of discrimination to jewish people until the root word is changed accordingly, sorry.
To be fair, all countries at one point have/had a dirty tract record though.
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I'm not saying people can't discuss this, it is just kind of amazing to read a bunch of people say OH MY GOD...DON'T THEY KNOW THIS WILL MAKE THINGS WORSE and then having someone actually posit it's for PITY and ISRAEL NEEDS AN ENEMY TO STAY IN POWER.
yes I think a country as steeped in foreign policy as Israel might have a grasp of ramifications a little better than forum member x.
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I still don't have no clue what your talking about danger, sorry.
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Oh I also really really hate the term Anti-semite. It's actually makes no sense when applied to arab people and the people of the middle east in general. The root word by defination is used to describe the people of the middle east, including BOTH Arabs and Jewish people and their language. I will never accept that word as a term of discrimination to jewish people until the root word is changed accordingly, sorry.
To be fair, all countries at one point have/had a dirty tract record though.
A lot of Jews nowadays realize the folly of this and use the term Judeophobe.
Also Steel, yeah. I just noticed that wasn't really directed at me. (At least I think it wasn't)
Additionally, on the bush argument... Like many other people, I believe Bush might have some kind of degenerative mental disease that's being pretty badly covered up. There was a video in youtube comparing Bush's speeches from a few years ago from what he says now and the difference is truly astounding.
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Lmao, you believe Bush is a harvard graduate?
He most definately is, on paper. I bet you didn't know that it's VERY hard to fail at harvarrd. Why? Because people don't pay up $50,000 or more a year to fail. There is a system setup to help as much as people pass even though they don't even deserve it, I know 4 people personally that graduated from harvard and they all told me this on seperation occasion (they don't know each other either). Plus the fact that he can't even pronounce anything correctly or construct a damn sentence himself...
Let's not drag every single conspiracy theory in existence into this, please.
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Lol, alright sure, but you should ask around yourself Dada. I have heard this on more then one occasion though as exaggerated as it sounds.
It probablly isn't true, just saying I heard that from some close friends of my family.
@Lord Kamina
Oh I never heard of that term, guess I learned something. I also never took into consideration that he is either having that brain issue you mentioned or he is just getting pretty old and clueless, good point.
The brain really is like a muscle. If you don't use your muscles much then atrophy is bond to happen. The same thing sort of applies to the brain. That's why all those T.V dads who sit on the couch and watch T.V all day become vegetables when they become seniors.
Maybe Bush isn't actively using his brain too much :D. In all seriousness though if it's a condition then I would understand.
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I also never took into consideration that he is either having that brain issue you mentioned or he is just getting pretty old and clueless, good point.
The brain really is like a muscle. If you don't use your muscles much then atrophy is bond to happen. The same thing sort of applies to the brain. That's why all those T.V dads who sit on the couch and watch T.V all day become vegetables when they become seniors.
Maybe Bush isn't actively using his brain too much :D. In all seriousness though if it's a condition then I would understand.
Note that all this shit is just a theory based on nothing more than comparison, but... It kinda would make sense, really.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvVilAlCBYc
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Lmao, you believe Bush is a harvard graduate?
He most definately is, on paper. I bet you didn't know that it's VERY hard to fail at harvarrd. Why? Because people don't pay up $50,000 or more a year to fail. There is a system setup to help as much as people pass even though they don't even deserve it, I know 4 people personally that graduated from harvard and they all told me this on seperation occasion (they don't know each other either). Plus the fact that he can't even pronounce anything correctly or construct a damn sentence himself...
lmao i believe bush is an alien @_@ (stupid one too lol)
he cant pronounce stuff wat a dummy
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"Oh and Ryan, Ahmadenijad is one strange and wonky dude man I'll admit. However, he is much more educated then Bush and a lot of the members of the Bush Administration. Him questioning the whole holocaust thing is his own problem, however dumb it may sound. Personally, I'm sure the holocaust did happen but I still have a lot of questions and remain skeptical about the deathtoll and other statistics. I think what he is just doing is pushing the whole Zionist control of the media thing to the extreme. It seems he is completely consumed by that idea. Frankly though, I would not be surprised if he was actually right though."
Did someone miss the University speech with this guy? He refused to answer very basic yes or no questions. One of which happened to be, "Did you say that you wanted the destruction of Israel as a state?" There's a difference between education and civility by the way. I don't believe that Ahmadenijad has one ounce of what we would describe as civility. He mentioned that, "There are no homosexuals in Iran like you have here in the United States." ..yeah, because they stone them all. I am not sold on the validity of this man's ability to lead in a unbiased manner anymore than I am Bush. Though, so what if Bush can't speak all that well? As for the argument that, "Bush would do it if he could." ..I don't think he would, and then you have someone on the opposite spectrum promoting their own propaganda that IS doing it, and has done nothing to condone it. But, this person is more educated and cultured than Bush. If you also noticed? He got offended that they were asking him questions of this nature and walked off stage, saying that he was being treated badly. Why? Because the Press just started to ask him actual legitimate questions about his government and his country that we've heard about for YEARS. Bush deals with this all the time. Hm.
The Holocaust's numbers are accurate simply because of the fact that the Germans were meticulous in their record keeping of all the people they killed and all the ways that they killed them. The numbers are not made up, nor is the evidence, anyone that can honestly have any doubt of this after Germany has admitted it and shunned the Nazi culture? I'm not sure what to say about your point of view on the matter, other than it's absolutely wrong. Yes. Omg. Your opinion on the matter is wrong, and you must have been protected from this 'touchy' subject matter in school.
As for the actual topic. What Israel did here, is morally wrong. I don't blame them for having done it, but I still believe it's wrong that they're punishing the people of the Gaza strip because of people that shoot rockets from the Gaza strip at them. Simply for the fact that, it's likely military from Egypt doing it.
The Palestinians sold the land to the Israelies, The Israelies cultivated it, the Palestinians wanted it back, the Israelies didn't want to give it up. If you look up something called the Six Day Way, you can learn a lot about the war over the Gaza Strip and what all this infighting is all about. It's a LONG read for something that only actually occurred for 6 days, but there's a lot of information in that - that you can't learn from anything else. They've spent more than 40 years trying to undo the effects of this particular event, and that's what a lot of the problems are caused by. This also happens to be why most people are confused as to the ownership over the Gaza Strip. This small footnote in history is the cause of what have been years of aggression and bloodshed.
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Yeah Blizzard your right on a few points there. I'm not entirely sure about the validity of land ownership just yet so I won't comment on that.
I also like to point out that harvard shit is just something I heard and I probablly shouldn't have even mentioned it. It would be nice if someone could try and confirm that though.
As for my viewpoint on the holocaust. I'm not going to sit here and deny it happen when I know for a fact it did, I acknowledge it 100%. I also acknowledge how much the Jewish people suffered and fuck genocide isn't cool at all man. I don't think it's right for you to say I have to believe everything I heard and read about though. I told you I had question SOME statistics personally that's all, am I not entitled to my own opinion on the matter?
I think Israel and Palestine should try there best to work this stuff before it gets even more out of hand. Israel is already in dangerous situation because of it's location and the many muslim enemies they've seem to accumalated. They don't have a very big population either which is even more scarier.
The worst thing that can happen is that Israel provokes even more of the neighbouring countries and Iran gets invovled. Another scenario would be the United States invading Iran which they're definately in no state to try and do right now. I think those two situations would spell a world war.
What do you guys think?
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" I don't think it's right for you to say I have to believe everything I heard and read about though. "
I didn't quite say that. Again, the Nazi's were incredibly meticulous in their record keeping. That's why we can say for certain how many were killed. Then again, that's not even the greatest genocide in history. Stalin killed more of his own men than Hitler did. We didn't seem to care about that one too much though.
Personally, I think the US should worry more about the mass exodus of Mexico on it's southern border than about countries that aren't even close to being able to actually injure it really. It has what is essentially a 3rd world country as it's next door neighbor, and has done nothing to attempt to help them.
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(http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/36080/moof%7Ehappyeast.gif) (http://www.somethingawful.com/d/news/2004-look-ahead.php)
one day.........
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Blame the french.
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Blame the french. England
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Blame the french. England. Ottoman Empire.
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Blame the french. England. Ottoman Empire. Roman Empire.
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Blame the french. England. Ottoman Empire. Roman Empire..Cavemen
Man seriously I don't even wanna comment on this shit anymore... There have been a ton of Palestinian/Israeli threads of issues in the past so you all already know my opinion towards this... but a lot of the comments in this topic have been full of shit and show so much ignorance and bias ism, its sickening.. (Inri on one end and Martini on the other but the Doc makes some worthwhile points that you can't ignore so I'm puzzled as to why Inri's shitty and ignorant comments didn't get as much flack as Martini's!)
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(Inri on one end and Martini on the other but the Doc makes some worthwhile points that you can't ignore so I'm puzzled as to why Inri's shitty and ignorant comments didn't get as much flack as Martini's!)
Because no one has ever taken him seriously (he is practically a joke account). Doktormartini on the other hand firmly, truly believes everything he says.