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General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: Izekeal on November 28, 2007, 10:12:57 pm

Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on November 28, 2007, 10:12:57 pm
I had a talk with a musician the other day.  I was mentioning how I downloaded all the episodes of Monty Python's Flying Circus and burned a few dvds with some episodes for my dad.  She equated that to going into a store and walking out with the official dvds.  We had a bit of a discussion about internet piracy, but not for as long as I would have liked.  The talk, however, got me thinking as to how I view internet piracy.  I came to a few conclusions.

First, I would never walk into a store and steal something off the shelves.  But, at the same time, I have no problem stealing the same product by using torrents, irc, p2p, etc.  The simplest answer I could come up with is the anonymity of the crime.  No store clerk, security camera, patron, or theft detector is going to catch me if I download something using the internet.  There's no fear of being caught, and the crime has become faceless; I don't have to see the face of the person/business I'm stealing from so it lowers the amount of guilt.  Do I still consider it stealing?  I guess, but I don't consider it the same as shoplifting because if I were to shoplift then I have stolen a hard copy of something (a CD, shoes, whatever), and the company that made that product will have to manufacture another to replace the one I've stolen.  But, when I download something, it's a digital copy made from a hard copy that was purchased.  The company doesn't have to make another item to replace the one I've downloaded, they'll just end up over producing and having more supply than demand (for all the people that don't buy their product).  It's sort of similar to only ever buying pre-owned/used goods.  The company that originally made the stuff isn't seeing a dime from your purchase.

Secondly, I do it because for most of these products, I wouldn't buy them in the first place.  This seems like a fairly hollow argument as I could say the same thing if I was apprehended for shoplifting: "Well officer, you see, I didn't actually want these so I thought I shouldn't have to pay for them".  However, when I look at this a little deeper, I realize that it might be because the things I'm stealing have no value in my mind.  The CD that I just downloaded isn't worth the $20 it would cost at a store, mainly because I can spend a few minutes searching the internet and download it for free.  That book I was interested in reading that costs $50 can be found in a torrent somewhere.  These things just aren't worth my money because they can be found anywhere and, in most cases, are exactly the same quality as they would be if you bought it from a store.

I guess I'll stop for now to keep the size of this post down, and to collect more thoughts about this.  But for now, I'm wondering what everyone else thinks about piracy.  Do you consider it stealing?  Are you concerned about companies that are losing money because of this?  Do you download pretty much everything you can, even if it's something you would normally support (a game by a company, album by an artist, etc)? 

Finally, what do you think could be done to fix the situation of internet piracy?

I'm not really sure as to what could be done about internet piracy.  It might have something to do with making products worth more in the eyes of a potential buyer.  I know for a fact that attempting to shut down p2p sites is a wasted effort as it's like cutting the heads off of a hydra.  I'll have to think for a while longer before I can come up with something good.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Medieve on November 28, 2007, 10:21:57 pm
I tend to play computer games I download as kind of demos... ones that I stop playing. As far as music goes, I've switched over to Pandora for the most part. Whatever music or misc stuff I've download I'll usually do "guilt" buys. I'll go out and buy something I wanted but would otherwise have downloaded.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on November 28, 2007, 10:28:38 pm
I download pretty much anything I can get my hands on.  But I will still buy things if I can't find them online and/or want to support the creators.  The greatest example is music; I haven't bought a CD in over two years, and even before that I was purchasing maybe one or two CDs a year.  However, I buy novels by my favourite authours, even brand new, but I'll still download pdfs of other books.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: the bloddy ghost on November 28, 2007, 10:34:21 pm
Without internet piracy, there would have been no other way for me to be exposed to so many types of music. I buy an album every few months, and I love having a hard copy of an album.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Sarah on November 28, 2007, 10:42:33 pm
I download everything.

I started doing this because it was really just EASIER. But then when I decided to open a store it became more cost efficient and a way to get what I wanted while still being able to accomplish my other goals.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Iaman on November 28, 2007, 10:45:24 pm
I tend to use piracy to test out if I actually WANT to buy things.  With movies, I'll download them and watch through them, then decide if I want to buy them.  Same thing with music, which is something that I've been really working on doing lately.

The one thing I don't pirate, though, is video games.  I don't know why, I just don't ever feel like pirating them, I guess.  I dunno.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Trujin on November 28, 2007, 10:52:38 pm
Downloading music and movies isn't even illigal in my country.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Standard Toaster on November 28, 2007, 10:55:54 pm
I only download things that are:

a. Not available in the US
b. Really rare/overpriced in the US
c. Single songs that I don't want the entire album for

I don't pirate games either. Without me having access to a credit card/online shopping/importing I don't really have an option to do anything but download them. (besides not having them of course)
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Cardinal Ximenez on November 28, 2007, 11:06:25 pm
"Intellectual property" is a misnomer. Essentially, IP grants its holder control over a whole class of information and its copies.

It would be much like the difference between owning a pine tree, and 'owning' the pine tree species. Stealing from a store is like taking a pine tree from someone's yard; wrong under most paradigms of property and ethics. However, what if someone gave you a pine tree for free that they raised in their orchid, without paying the pine tree species owner whatever they wanted?

Most justifications of this have to do with 'market regulation' or 'encouraging innovation'. I disagree that IP is necessary.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Doktormartini on November 28, 2007, 11:14:19 pm
The only thing I download is music and I download really rare stuff or if I download something not rare I usually go out and by the album.  Also, like others have stated, it has got me into so many new bands and styles of music!
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: missingno on November 28, 2007, 11:19:02 pm
Quote

This. It doesn't really justify doing anything illegal but when it comes down to it it's just the way it is. I download movies and shit that I would never pay money for, especially since a lot of the time I download random movies that I've never seen/heard before and just want to try them out. If I saw something like SHANGHAI KISS at a store I wouldn't even think about buying it, but since it was in the Zoo I figured "sure why not" and it was actually a much better movie than I expected.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Drule on November 29, 2007, 12:32:57 am
Well most shit is ridiculously overpriced, and the entertainment industry deserves a few blows in favor of systems that allow more talented artists to get attention.

And plus, like you said, it's not stealing at all. Organizations like to make up dumb numbers they equal to loss of income when in reality they are just estimations on how much people have downloaded. I wouldn't even buy one tenth of the crap I download, which is why I do it in the first place. I want to decide for myself whether or not a production is worth my money (or time) rather than having publishers tell me which artists to listen to, or being lied to by the back of a DVD cover at the video store.

Also, you want the experience of having played, seen or heard a something, even if it's bad, but that alone doesn't make a product worth buying.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Wash Cycle on November 29, 2007, 01:07:37 am
yeah I pretty much download music and movies because I dont have the kind of disposable income to support the collection that I like to maintain
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Madolah on November 29, 2007, 01:29:12 am
currently honing 32gigs of music i'll probably never listen to half of, cs3 master suite collection a few movies and tv box-sets. none have i payed for... don't feel the need for having to really. only time i'll buy stuff is if i'm getting a game... or a book (not reading often i dont mind paying for an occasional treat to read.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: XxSylverxX on November 29, 2007, 01:33:18 am
i replaced being a moralist with being an oppritunist a long time ago.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Sludgelord on November 29, 2007, 01:44:14 am
Quote from: XxSylverxX on November 29, 2007, 01:33:18 am
i replaced being a moralist with being an oppritunist a long time ago.
heh me too *downloads the latest drizzt book and retires to a candlelit coven*
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Lord Kamina on November 29, 2007, 01:48:05 am
Well for me, it goes kinda like this:

Music:

Well, music is really fucking overpriced AND there's a really small variety here in Chile. Without Internet I would have never heard of Concerto Moon, Eva Cassidy or others, or I might have ended up paying $100 for a CD... So, I download it.

Movies, series & anime:
Pretty much the save with the addition that it's actually hard to find non-dubbed shit here...

Books:
Books I actually pay for. I can order them from ebay at reasonable prices and I can read them wherever.
This is extensible to some comics... For example, I am expecting The Sandman to arrive next week. I spent $120 on it...

Now, I've always done a difference in my mind... I don't know if this make sense to you guys, but... For me it isn't the same to download something from the internet than to buy or sell it to someone else... When doing the second, you are actually encouraging and letting someone thrive on it.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Moriason on November 29, 2007, 01:59:22 am
I don't have a bullshit excuse as to why I pirate except that it's free and easy.

What else can one say? There's no just answer.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: cowardknower on November 29, 2007, 02:07:52 am
Quote from: Moriason on November 29, 2007, 01:59:22 am
I don't have a bullshit excuse as to why I pirate except that it's free and easy.

What else can one say? There's no just answer.

agreed
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on November 29, 2007, 03:29:34 am
I came in here to post basically what Moriason said. I really have no excuse for internet piracy. I do it because it saves me money. If that's wrong, that's a sin I'm willing to bear. I have no excuse.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Killface on November 29, 2007, 03:37:43 am
Quote from: Moriason on November 29, 2007, 01:59:22 am
I don't have a bullshit excuse as to why I pirate except that it's free and easy.

What else can one say? There's no just answer.
This is true. YAY FREENESS!
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: the_hoodie on November 29, 2007, 04:08:42 am
Quote from: Trujin on November 28, 2007, 10:52:38 pm
Downloading music and movies isn't even illigal in my country.
This as far as I know
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: GirlBones on November 29, 2007, 05:31:51 am
My feelings on piracy are pretty much anything goes. I'm not so sure about downloading books, but the distribution aspects of other forms of media such as music and movies have become so bloated and greedy that they need to be taken down a notch.

Pirating music off the internet is akin to purchasing free-trade coffee in the supermarket. In my situation, it's only taking money away from the middle men. If I bought every CD I have, I'd probably be out $8,000 but out of all those thousands of dollars, probably only fifty bucks or so would actually go to the various artists. The way most artists make their money is by performing live and selling merch, and I've been attending 10-15 shows a year for the last two years.


I don't think that "internet piracy" is wrong. The fact that "Piracy" is so pervasive is just evidence that you reap what you sow. If the media distributors hadn't been so greedy, they wouldn't be experiencing the issues they are now.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on November 29, 2007, 05:40:34 am
Quote from: Girl Bones on November 29, 2007, 05:31:51 am
I don't think that "internet piracy" is wrong. The fact that "Piracy" is so pervasive is just evidence that you reap what you sow. If the media distributors hadn't been so greedy, they wouldn't be experiencing the issues they are now.

I find it hard to believe that.  I'd probably be pirating music even if CDs became a lot cheaper, mainly because pirating the music is free and I wouldn't feel like spending money if I didn't have to.  It isn't the fault of the industry, in my mind, it's really just because pirating is too easy.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: GirlBones on November 29, 2007, 05:42:24 am
Quote from: Izekeal on November 29, 2007, 05:40:34 am
I find it hard to believe that.  I'd probably be pirating music even if CDs became a lot cheaper, mainly because pirating the music is free and I wouldn't feel like spending money if I didn't have to.  It isn't the fault of the industry, in my mind, it's really just because pirating is too easy.

Well, I guess that's just because you're a bad person. Still, even if the media giants lowered their prices ten-fold and people still pirated, I wouldn't care if they collapsed. Some might say that it would negatively affect the economy, but paying $22 for a CD negatively affects my soul.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on November 29, 2007, 05:43:43 am
Quote from: Girl Bones on November 29, 2007, 05:42:24 am
Well, I guess that's just because you're a bad person.

But I'm not a bad person if I pirate because I want to "stick it to the man"?  Stealing is still stealing, regardless of the flavour of sugar coating you spread on it.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: GirlBones on November 29, 2007, 05:45:38 am
heh heh heh, sorry man, I didn't mean for that to be a dig at you i just didn't edit my post quick enough.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on November 29, 2007, 05:49:55 am
Well, I can see what you're getting at.  It goes back to the point I made about media not being worth anything to people.  If they can download it then its effective worth is zero dollars.  Why pay more than what you think something is worth?  Also, I know some people in the music industry, mainly musicians, and it's pretty rough.  But I think the industry needs to change as it can't just perpetuate the way it always has; it needs to find a way to get with the times or else it will probably collapse.  I'm not certain that lowering CD prices will make a difference, although if I could get an album for around $5 I might actually consider picking one up.... maybe..
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Kaempfer on November 29, 2007, 05:53:19 am
I am cheap and lazy and I actually don't like going to stores (because I am so lazy). I will purchase a game if I know it's good; this is true of console games that I usually buy used if I have played them beforehand. Most games these days are pretty shitty though and generally not worth the money, so I would feel ripped off if I went and paid $80 for them. The place I used to work had an independently owned (as in not EB games or some shit) store literally right next to it and so every week I'd pop in there and buy a new game. It was convenient and they didn't overcharge me for games (usually they were +/- two bucks or so) so why not? I'm not going to get on the bus and go downtown so I can buy a fucking PC game, though, when it would actually take me less time to find and download the torrent.

For music, I don't buy CDs because they are clunky media and my CD player is huge; my iPod (which I rarely use) is much smaller and I don't have to switch CDs all the time. And if you think I am going to PAY for .mp3s, think again! The illogical of that completely outweighs the immorality of it, as far as I am concerned.

I download a lot of software because it is grievously overpriced; like Photoshop or something. Photoshop can charge whatever they want to companies who have to use it legally, but I am not paying however many hundreds of dollars it is so I can change the colour depth on my sweet RM2k3 chipsets.

Quote from: Moriason
I don't have a bullshit excuse as to why I pirate except that it's free and easy.

What else can one say? There's no just answer.

Mostly this, though.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: helter skelter on November 29, 2007, 05:59:59 am
I only download TV shows and movies. Games or music I always buy. I'm not sure why...
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Neophyte on November 29, 2007, 06:04:53 am
Quote from: Moriason on November 29, 2007, 01:59:22 am
I don't have a bullshit excuse as to why I pirate except that it's free and easy.

What else can one say? There's no just answer.
I will not hide in the shadows....I fully agree with this.

I do buy games though. As for music, if it's an artist I really support(underground, etc), then I'll shell out my money for the CD. But I'm not going to pay for stuff that I rarely use. Basically, if I like you a lot, you get my money.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Sarah on November 29, 2007, 06:11:50 am
Also, yeah, I just said this on IRC but even if I had loads of cash at my disposal (that's not engaged in other things) I probably wouldn't buy any of the stuff I download because it's so much less convenient, and also I am terribly shallow person. I would have to go out, waste gas to go to the store, find what I'm looking for (IF THEY HAVE IT), and if it's behind glass I have to wait for someone to come help me get it, and then I have to wait in line for about five minutes.

I am also terribly self-concious about people looking at what I am buying. I go grocery shopping and buy a bunch of really good stuff that makes me look great at like 7:00 at night and then if there's something that I am ashamed of (YES I AM ASHAMED OF FOOD) I will go back at like 2:00 AM when I know no one is around to buy it.

I feel the same way about buying shit like games. I don't go to EB Games very often because not only is it expensive, but good lord, if someone saw me buying some random japanese game I would feel pretty awkward. Also, again with people. I can't stand the people who go to those stores who want to talk to you about what you are buying. I bought FFXII last year and some guy in line started telling me ways to LEVEL UP EASY and about his favourite weapons and I just wanted to kick him in the jaw.

Same with music. People are so incredibly judgemental about musical taste and although I am not embarrassed by what I listen to (EMOPS) there is a BAD MENTALITY and people do hassle me jokingly about it and I don't want their opinions.


So basically, downloading cuts out all that shit so I can get what I want without feeling bad about getting it.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Cardinal Ximenez on November 29, 2007, 06:36:39 am
If you people are so fucking lazy not to be principled, why not just go for the people who are actually giving away their music for free (http://jamendo.com)? I fully anticipate and embrace the collapse of Hollywood and the formation of the new open content empire (powered by linux).  :fogetlaugh:

Dream Theater has released enough albums anyways. :)
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: The Ghost on November 29, 2007, 07:29:00 am
Internet Piracy is inevitable, at least for now. Sure, we heard all those attempts of the companies trying to get to the average user via ISP, but why would the ISP obliged to their ranting and lose customers?

What these entertainment companies need to be doing is stop putting such a huge effort to fight us off and focus on ways to evolve. I'm not saying that that they should ignore us entirely, sure try and protect your intellectual rights/property, they should. They must understand though that money WILL be lost due to internet piracy (while promoting the product some what as well). It is also a huge waste of time to be caught up in the court rooms. Legal disputes almost always require the company to spend more money then they will get back, and it just makes them looks like bullies anyways. Many record companies in the industry now were established and got huge from us, the fans years ago. They really shouldn't be expecting everyone to pay that retarded price for Cd's that really only have 2-4 decent tracks on them, aside from the single they most likely sucked dried on television/radio.

The key again is to evolve, sort of like what apples has done. The average user does not resort to internet piracy. Putting up glossy pictures and one click purchases in a software REQUIRED to transfer songs on a unit is ingenious to be honest. Apple has always been a creative company in my mind and they are doing well in doing things that other companies just don't do. They always introduce new units when they already have great products, it really looks like they are catering to us and not just waiting to milk their previous products dry. I believe they now make they're itunes stuff products mp3 so they can be put on any mp3 player now, that's called thinking folks.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: dada on November 29, 2007, 07:31:22 am
Quote from: Izekeal on November 28, 2007, 10:12:57 pm
I had a talk with a musician the other day.  I was mentioning how I downloaded all the episodes of Monty Python's Flying Circus and burned a few dvds with some episodes for my dad.  She equated that to going into a store and walking out with the official dvds.
This is the absolute worst anti-piracy argument anyone can possibly come up with, and let me explain once and for all why it is so flawed:

Quote from: Izekeal on November 28, 2007, 10:12:57 pm
[...] I have no problem stealing the same product by using torrents, irc, p2p, etc.
Not stealing. Copying! Please don't equate piracy with theft.

Quote from: Izekeal on November 28, 2007, 10:12:57 pm
Secondly, I do it because for most of these products, I wouldn't buy them in the first place.
This is a good argument. Let me mention a few others:

Quote from: Izekeal on November 28, 2007, 10:12:57 pm
Do you consider it stealing?
I don't even care what people consider.

Piracy is not stealing according to almost all law systems in the world. You are free to think of it as such, but you are not correct in front of a court, and that's what really matters.

Quote from: Izekeal on November 28, 2007, 10:12:57 pm
Are you concerned about companies that are losing money because of this?
Record companies and the likes are ridiculously rich. They make such bizarre amounts of money that I really don't care about them losing any. But in reality, it has never been proven that copyright infringement over the Internet has caused the record industry to lose substantial amounts of money. There is no indication of causation, although there's a correlation. But the world's temperature has been rising lately, too; that's as much a correlation as illegal downloading is. (Note that "correlation" is merely an indication that two or more variables tend to vary together. It does not equal causation.)
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: The Ghost on November 29, 2007, 07:50:17 am
I agree with a lot of Dada said, I was going to say it myself.

No, they did not lose a customer who had no intention of buying your product in the first place. The COPY I downloaded in no way cost you money, as Dada said it's purely digital. So in reality, all I've done is take their product without costing them a cent while still benefiting from the product itself.

If anything it's the ISP that should be complaining with the amount of traffic we abuse, but that's an entirely new arguement that I won't go into anyways. ISP's tried to cap us but that definately didn't work either.

I don't see anything wrong with pirating, especially if there was no intent of actually purchasing the product.

I think the film industry is fucking ridiculous. Hello? I'm not at the airport nor have I been pulled over. Why the fuck are you running some metal detector on me at a movie theatre?

I remember taking some girl to the theatre for a new movie (forgot the movie). I got the tickets and shit and some guy who apparently thought he had size on me step to me with a metal detector. I told him if that goes anywhere near me you'll see what happens (always keep threats indirect for legal reason). He step closer to me, I step closer to him, I wasn't playing at all. Then he step back and I said go call your manager.

The manager came back and I was holding everyone up so he wanted to resolve the situation quickly, I knew this of course. I told him that he has no right to search me, I came hear to enjoy a movie (showed him the tickets) with my girl here and arrive to this boot camp with nothing but hostility in the air. Do you see what's in my hands? $20 worth of food bought at the consession stand + my tickets, and I don't deserve this. He basically said it's policy and I said well you just lost yourself a customer, I'm not coming here anymore, infact I'll probably find a good version to download and watch at home. He stop me and gave me a coupon for both the tickets and just let me and my girl go in.

Moral of the story, don't let anyone hold you done for a stupid lost cause. They don't do searches for cameras at every location and they only do it for the first day releases, don't waste people's time.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Drule on November 29, 2007, 09:06:58 am
You are fucking retarded.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: The Ghost on November 29, 2007, 09:15:09 am
I never thought much of you either, so go ahead and suck yourself.

I was going to accept it anyways I was just making a scene because I knew he would let me go in. I had a lot of shit in my hand and I didn't want to put it down. Plus I did it when they FIRST started to check people, I never cared later when they were checking everyone (including myself) on debuts for other movies.

The girl didn't want anyone going through her purse either, they were sticking their fucking hands in it.

So I'm sorry for not standing there like a bitch.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Lord Kamina on November 29, 2007, 10:36:02 am
I forgot to say this too... But piracy is kinda like a fucking conspiration... Have you ever stopped to think for a while? back in the 80s and early 90s... It was commonplace to borrow a cassette or a VHS from a friend and copy it... And nobody would say anything, it was as normal as it got... Or recording from the radio or TV.

Today, however... Doing the same is "STEALING." In the end, it's all just a fucking ginormous lobby by the media industry.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: #1 Vodka fan on November 29, 2007, 10:49:22 am
Quote
Most games these days are pretty shitty though and generally not worth the money, so I would feel ripped off if I went and paid $80 for them

I agree. I wouldn't pay that much on something I beat in 3 hours.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: The Ghost on November 29, 2007, 11:40:00 am
Ok guys after much thought I decided that piracy is plain wrong because... Just think about it for a moment.

You wouldn't steal a car would you?

You wouldn't steal a purse

You wouldn't steal a cell phone

You wouldn't steal a movie

Buying pirated movies is STEALING. Stealing is against the law! Piracy IS stealing.

I hope you learned something. Let me now apply what I've just said to a suspenseful music.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k0g1PpuJcis&feature=related


Another reasons why I changed my mind is because celebrities told me that it's wrong.



Against:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u_oAplHmZEA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7lct4Efa8O0

WATCH OUT FOR PIRACY ASSASSINS.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MTbX1aMajow

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DcMNl-JBJ8U&feature=related
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Hundley on November 29, 2007, 11:54:21 am
Quote from: DJH47 on November 29, 2007, 06:36:39 am
If you people are so fucking lazy not to be principled, why not just go for the people who are actually giving away their music for free (http://jamendo.com)?
who says we don't? in terms of minutes of music, i have more independent music on my computer than "professional" music.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Carrion Crow on November 29, 2007, 11:56:13 am
Quote from: Macubex on November 29, 2007, 07:50:17 am
Some strange rant

Ok people of gamingW. Imagine this, but in the voice of butters from South Park.

(https://legacy.gamingw.net/etc/media.urbandictionary.com/image/large/butters-37190.jpeg)
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on November 29, 2007, 12:05:51 pm
i don't listen to music so i don't download it, but when it comes to movies and cartoons etc, i've always figured if it's been on TV before then it shouldn't be a problem at all!
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: The Ghost on November 29, 2007, 12:10:48 pm
Quote from: Eddie on November 29, 2007, 11:56:13 am
Ok people of gamingW. Imagine this, but in the voice of butters from South Park.

Southpark dude

Imagine me pirating the manager of a movie theatre.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Mama Luigi on November 29, 2007, 02:25:49 pm
I actually would buy music CD's over downloading them if they were:

A) Cheaper.... WAY cheaper. I won't pay $20 for a music CD, but $5, $6 or maybe even $7 would be much more reasonable.
B) More available. The kind of music I listen to is not exactly mainstream so it's difficult to pick up a disc at the local music store.
C) Amazon ACCEPT PAYPAL PLZ. They have music available for download but they don't accept PayPal >_>
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: CorporateGreed on November 29, 2007, 03:25:49 pm
I download almost everything, but I end up buying a lot of the same stuff as well.

It's really just 'try before you buy', and I think that'show it should be used. I'm not going to pay for
a movie or album if I don't know if it's good or not. If it's good however, it's eventually destined
to end up in my shelves. I even do this with some anime's when they are released over here;
Buying Great Teacher Onizuka is one of the greatest things I've ever done.

Software however, i rarely pay for. As a musician, I use a lot of software, ranging from VSTi's and
sequencers to high class music software like ProTools and Ableton Live. I can't afford it, but I still
want to make use of the software. If I ever end up doing this shit for a living, I'll buy it; I've done
so with Guitar Rig II already (although that's because it comes with hardware).

We don't want the commercial industry to die, of course.

As for the 'gimme cheaper' argument... I understand you feel that way, but maybe, just maybe, they
have to keep the prices this high because *gasp* half the world downloads the products?

Of course, even if we'd download less and bought more, the industry would keep the prices high,
because they'd make more money, so it's a no-win situation in the end.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: chanicakes on November 29, 2007, 03:37:43 pm
I consider my downloading to be like pre-viewing something I want. In my case I actually end up buying basically everything I download. So for me it isn't quite stealing but pre-viewing.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Zeratul on November 29, 2007, 03:49:16 pm
I think it's terrible that anyone has had to pay a cent to the RIAA because "BOOHOO BECAUSE PEOPLE DOWNLOAD OUR MUSIC WE'RE LOSING 3 BILLION DOLLARS" (Yeah I know that's not the actual number, but the fact is that the number is ridiculous no matter what it is).
CDs are a dying format. Almost no one carries CD players anymore. They probably won't die entirely for like 20 years or so, but surely the record companies couldn't expect to sell CDs forever. It's not "piracy" that's causing them lost sales; people have been "pirating" for years. Shit, I can't count how many VHS tapes and cassette tapes I borrowed from friends and family members and just copied over. They're losing sales because they're sticking to a business model which is failing. Downloading doesn't cost them a cent and they know it. Anyone who would pirate music would've found a way anyways and they wouldn't have bought the album, not to mention that most people don't pirate an entire album anyways, but rather one or two songs.
There are CD stores closing left and right, store hours being cut, employees not getting enough hours and so forth, and they think the problem is illegal downloading? It's not the high prices, oh no, where did you get that silly idea?
I'm glad that there are ISPs out there that refuse to give information to the RIAA without a court subpoena. Even though piracy is illegal, there's no reason to make it so easy on the RIAA. Let them spend millions of dollars to try and get a few hundred thousand out of my pocket.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: LORd on November 29, 2007, 05:48:26 pm
I would like to think that I have some set of "ethics" as regards to piracy, like only pirating things that aren't readily available in Finland, but the truth really is that such things far outnumber what little domestically available entertainment I consume. If I hear a catchy ANIMU/VIDCON BEAT, I prefer eMuling it to ordering The Official SoundTrack from Japan-land with a stellar postal fee just for that one track. Generally, if acquiring it requires me to use the Internet, I might just as well hit The Pirate Bay rather than go through a complex net auction process.

I do have to confess that I've actually recently begun to believe such CRAZY TALK as net piracy and the Internet giving more freedom of choice to the consumer, deconstructing a deathly ill business model, and paving the way to a socialist utopia where information is free and infinite and everybody brushes their teeth after a meal.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on November 29, 2007, 05:54:58 pm
Dada made a good point about unliscenced anime.  However, almost everything (read: 95% or so) of the things I download I could have bought.  His other good point is one that I tried to raise with the musician I was talking to; downloading something is not the same as taking it off a shelf from a store.  Someone out there had to buy whatever I've downloaded so an original purchase was made.  But if I shoplift then it costs the company money to replace the stolen item. 

I've thought of another question.  What do you think will happen to the industries if piracy continues along at its current pace (or becomes more widespread)?  Will the industries crumble, or will they buckle under the pressure and find a way to make money?

Edit: I personally think that the industries will do one of two things.  Perpetuate until they no longer exist (in the way the exist now), or adapt their distribution and development process to allow them to make money.  Pretty vague answer, but it's all I can come up with for now.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: bonermobile on November 29, 2007, 06:47:23 pm
I haven't bought music/a movie/a game in probably 2 years.

Its free, its fast, its easy.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on November 29, 2007, 07:07:57 pm
i download rap music because i want the artists to lose money
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Mince Wobley on November 29, 2007, 07:33:30 pm
I think that if those companies didn't want to "lose money" to piracy they should just invent another way to make money, and I'm pretty sure they can do that. Nobody wants to buy their tiny, round plastic discs anymore, they should accept it instead of trying to sue everyone and saying "PIRACY IS STEALING!!", that will just make everyone hate them.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: dada on November 29, 2007, 07:58:31 pm
Quote from: Zeratul on November 29, 2007, 03:49:16 pm
I think it's terrible that anyone has had to pay a cent to the RIAA because "BOOHOO BECAUSE PEOPLE DOWNLOAD OUR MUSIC WE'RE LOSING 3 BILLION DOLLARS" (Yeah I know that's not the actual number, but the fact is that the number is ridiculous no matter what it is).
Yeah, this is ridiculous. The blank CDs I buy are more expensive because the **AA says they're being used to hurt their sales. Even if we assume that this is correct, nobody uses CDs anymore to copy stuff around. We've got torrents now. You can stop taxing that old media now, since whatever potential it had for piracy is now long gone.

Besides, any new music that I buy goes straight to the iPod. I also digitized all games that I'd like to keep. Why should I leave them on an unstable old physical disc that does nothing but deteriorate on my shelve?

Quote from: Izekeal on November 29, 2007, 05:54:58 pm
I've thought of another question.  What do you think will happen to the industries if piracy continues along at its current pace (or becomes more widespread)?  Will the industries crumble, or will they buckle under the pressure and find a way to make money?
Piracy is going only one way: it's growing, and will continue to grow unless something else becomes more attractive to the users. That means the media companies will need to make it easier for us to get content quickly and at a low price. iTunes is a good start, for example. They need to expand on that concept.

If they don't, they will eventually start losing money because you can't sell a product that nobody wants. And if all they're going to be churning out are ridiculously expensive CDs, they won't have a viable business model. No matter how large, the dinosaur will fall.

Besides, there's absolutely no way that piracy can be stopped. Hackers will find their way around everything. The only thing that scares a hacker is a hardware lock, but even those will eventually be cracked, if they ever come to be (they most likely won't). Just take a look at the PSP, for example. Every single copy protection they've come up with has been cracked eventually. I'm not sure if they're still working on the latest. They've patched the thing up a zillion times, and even so it's still a matter of looking up the right documents; you can crack your PSP within 10 minutes if you know where to look. This has been true for every single software product as well. I think it's fair to predict that the only way to "stop" piracy is through legal means, but they have been losing support for that route for some time now.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Tatsujinken on November 29, 2007, 10:37:03 pm
Piracy is harder to quit than smoking. I know I'm not going to switch sides anytime soon...!
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: missingno on November 29, 2007, 11:25:41 pm
Quote
Buying Great Teacher Onizuka is one of the greatest things I've ever done.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Grunthor on November 30, 2007, 12:06:07 am
Quote from: Lord Kamina on November 29, 2007, 10:36:02 am
I forgot to say this too... But piracy is kinda like a fucking conspiration... Have you ever stopped to think for a while? back in the 80s and early 90s... It was commonplace to borrow a cassette or a VHS from a friend and copy it... And nobody would say anything, it was as normal as it got... Or recording from the radio or TV.

Today, however... Doing the same is "STEALING." In the end, it's all just a fucking ginormous lobby by the media industry.

The movie and recording industries both tried to put a stop to VHS and cassettes back in the early 80's by claiming that people would use the technology to steal their property and that it would hurt their sales.  Obviously they weren't hurt by the technology since both industries were still having record sales well into the late 90's.  

I don't really pirate much of anything these days.  I only do so if the thing I want is out of print or extremely hard to find.  I also refuse to pirate games for current systems.  Movie studios can always put their movies on television and get the money back from advertising or licensing fees.  Musicians can go on tour and make money that way.  Game companies can't do that sort of thing.  They rely solely on sales.    
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Iaman on November 30, 2007, 02:47:06 am
I don't honestly think that piracy is affecting the music and recording industries as much as they claim, I think it's more that it's an easy scapegoat for the larger problem that those industries face, which is that people simply don't want to buy a lot of the product they offer.  I mean, half of the movies I download are things that I would NEVER buy, and I just grab for shits and giggles every now and then. I would have never bought it anyway, so it's not really all that bad that I'm downloading it, imo.

Just thought I'd throw that out there
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: JJ on November 30, 2007, 11:37:46 pm
(http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/31343/piracy-global-warming.jpg)
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Fatboys #4 on December 01, 2007, 04:28:53 pm
I think of it like this. If I knew someone who had all the cds I wanted, I could just as easily borrow the cds and rip them to my computer. That action is not stealing, it's perfectly legal. The only illegal thing to do, would be to make copies of that cd or to start sharing them with everyone on the internet. The same goes with pretty much any media. If it's a game, you could just as easily borrow that game from a friend until you're done, and then return it (or in case of a download, delete). I believe that you can leech all you want to, but once you start contributing to MASS AMOUNTS of sharing, downloading, uploading then it becomes a problem and then and only then will anyone really care.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: dada on December 01, 2007, 04:43:25 pm
Quote from: Fatboys #4 on December 01, 2007, 04:28:53 pm
I think of it like this. If I knew someone who had all the cds I wanted, I could just as easily borrow the cds and rip them to my computer. That action is not stealing, it's perfectly legal.
Actually, you can only make rips of the CDs that you own. You can't borrow someone else's CDs and copy them. It's a civil violation to do so. But if you buy a CD, you're free to dump the contents of the disc on your computer as a binary stream of data. That's a perfect example of fair use. After all, you're ripping the CD so you can (among various other things) listen to it on your computer, right?

Quote from: Fatboys #4 on December 01, 2007, 04:28:53 pm
[...] once you start contributing to MASS AMOUNTS of sharing, downloading, uploading then it becomes a problem and then and only then will anyone really care.
Except for the downloading bit, what you say is true in practice. Nobody's going to do anything about your sharing behavior until you begin to attract attention.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: mkkmypet on December 02, 2007, 05:57:01 am
music:
i usually only pirate foreign (okay well japanese) music that i wouldnt even be able to find around here. though most of the music that i have on my computer is pirated by my sister. and i guess if she hadnt pirated those songs, i would be pirating them. but anyways, i think that downloading music is great and that it shouldnt be illegal. to me, a life without music is severely lacking. just because someone may not have a lot of money doesnt mean they shouldnt get to experience good music.
i wish there were more artists who like people to download their songs. for example: weird al! he wrote a song called "dont download this song" that has a lot of sarcastic things in it about pirating; it's obvious he is supporting it. he's said before in interviews and stuff that he supports it, because it allows more people to hear of him and enjoy his music. and there are plenty of people who end up buying CDs because they liked some music they heard online. if i had never pirated music, i would never have heard hardly any music at all because nobody in my family has money to spend on ridiculously overpriced CDs.
and also, CDs have a bunch of songs by the same band on them (excluding mixes). for me, i don't really listen to a bunch of songs by the same band, same time, same everything. i listen to a few songs from one cd, a few from another, etc... whatever i find online. and i try to hear a variety of a band's songs. an album has ones all from the same time period, whereas i can find ones from when the band was new and ones from maybe 20 years after it was formed. and thats much more interesting to me.
i highly encourage pirating music. i think it shouldnt be illegal. it does NO HARM to the companies; it's way different than something like shoplifting. you're not taking anything physical. but then you are more likely to go buy something physical if you've heard a few songs online than if you never heard of them at all. and maybe you'll buy something to support them. but if you've never heard any songs free, then you'll have no idea what the band is like.

anime:
i think downloading/streaming anime shouldn't be illegal, too. first of all, there are many many many good animes that aren't even available in countries other than japan in any form. so it's not like we would be able to get them any other way anyways.
and if there's an english version of an anime being shown on american tv station, it's very likely that it: has terrible voices, terrible translation of dialogue, removal of scenes/unnecessary editing, and chances are that they wont show it again after it finishes and so if you miss it, then you have to buy the dvd. but that is really unfair. people who saw it on television didn't have to pay extra for it, so why should you? and not to mention that it could end up not being as great as you thought it was and then you just wasted money.
however, if you watch anime online (fansubbed) that has a crappy american version but you like the story and characters and all that in the japanese version, you might want to buy merchandise for it. but if you had only seen the american version, you wouldn't have liked it. and, like with music, you're not stealing anything physical so you're not costing the company money.

basically my views on all this:
if you hadn't gotten the product online (which wouldn't cost nor give the company any money), you wouldn't have gotten it at all (which wouldn't cost nor give the company any money).
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: goat on December 02, 2007, 08:26:39 am
Quote from: Tomato on November 28, 2007, 10:34:21 pm
Without internet piracy, there would have been no other way for me to be exposed to so many types of music. I buy an album every few months, and I love having a hard copy of an album.


Same goes for me and games, If it wasn't for piracy I wouldn't have even seen 1/10 the games I have in the 12 years I've known about it. Also if it wasn't for emulation, which is pretty piratey, I would never be able to play all these classic arcade, nes, snes, genesis, etc. titles against people all over the globe. But I do buy the few I actually enjoy (not many), and nowadays you pretty much have to for internet play, as far as PC games.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: fatty on December 03, 2007, 11:42:15 am
Quote from: Macubex on November 29, 2007, 09:15:09 am
I never thought much of you either, so go ahead and suck yourself.

I was going to accept it anyways I was just making a scene because I knew he would let me go in. I had a lot of shit in my hand and I didn't want to put it down. Plus I did it when they FIRST started to check people, I never cared later when they were checking everyone (including myself) on debuts for other movies.

The girl didn't want anyone going through her purse either, they were sticking their fucking hands in it.

So I'm sorry for not standing there like a bitch.
I don't get it. Why couldn't you just LET HIM SCAN YOU?
I mean, you didn't have a reason to go up to the security guard and be all MACHO-MACHO for no reason, I mean,
it just seems to me that you wanted to get the pussy ( :naughty:​) that day and you felt that you REALLY HAD TO BE A CUNT towards a random person DOING WHAT HE'S PAYED TO DO. I mean, SURE, the whole proccess is UNPLEASANT but still, you have to go through it without whining!
Standing there like a bitch>Whining like a bitch imho :fogetsmile:

I am not even going to touch the issue of piracy here. Feel free to warn me for this post but that was just my two cents. :rolleyes:


EDIT: Actually, there's something I need to say about piracy. I don't think there should be any discussion on piracy at all. It is just a really fucked up subject that can only spawn endless flaming from both sides of the argument. All I can really say right now is  :fogetshh: :fogetshh: :fogetshh: because prety much everyone who can log on to a computer has illegally downloaded a song online so yeah  :fogetshh: :fogetshh: :shh:
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Drule on December 03, 2007, 12:07:41 pm
fatty stop trying to steel.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: The Ghost on December 03, 2007, 02:58:31 pm
That really was a Steel move. You jerk, me and Drule just got over this little argument. We promised each other that we would never call each other names again, no homo x10.

Hmm, now that I have a chance to sit down and reflect, I may have been an asshole.

To behonest I was trying to keep my P Shooter concealed.

To stay on topic:

Here are some very influencial people that have changed my view of piracy entirely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LkWKvMCzqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4pnY1wFiU


Director Cut of the popular "You wouldn't StEaL..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wRxfz_6E7o
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on December 04, 2007, 08:20:36 am
I was talking to my dad about this and he mentioned that big name record labels; BMG, EMI, etc give very little money from the sale of a CD back to the band.  However, independant record labels give almost all the money on the sale of a CD back to the band.  My dad released a solo album and is able to keep all the money he's making from CD sales.  So, if you're being picky as to what bands you want to support, take a look at an album and see if it was produced/released by an independant record label as you'll be able to directly support the band/artist if you buy it.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Nessiah on December 04, 2007, 08:37:02 am
Quote from: NinjaPirate on November 28, 2007, 10:55:54 pm
I only download things that are:

a. Not available in the US
b. Really rare/overpriced in the US
c. Single songs that I don't want the entire album for

I don't pirate games either. Without me having access to a credit card/online shopping/importing I don't really have an option to do anything but download them. (besides not having them of course)

:rite:

except this is all in Aussie XD

Sometimes I download them first and see if they are good :D
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Vellfire on December 04, 2007, 02:40:37 pm
I download pretty much anything, but if I can find it, I'll buy it.  The reason I pirate these things is that there was a HUGE gap between when I downloaded movies like Delicatessen and Pretty Persuasion and actually FOUND them somewhere.  Those companies still got their money, it just took a while.  Sometimes I just pirate things because I either lost the original or don't want to rip it myself.  As for music, I rarely purchase the music that I download, but people are rarely downloading THOUSANDS of movies the same as they download thousands of songs.  If I had to pay for every song I downloaded, it'd be about impossible.  I do occasionally buy things I can't find downloads for off of iTunes, though.

I stopped caring about pirating music when I saw the soundtrack to Chess for sale for over $50, when I only wanted to buy it because of One Night in Bangkok (and the chance that other songs were also good).
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: JoshAP2007 on December 04, 2007, 03:18:53 pm
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Why are people still having this discussion? There's nothing you can do to justify piracy. You're getting something for free that was released in stores, either in this country or another. You'e not paying a cent for it. It's stealing. Just admit that you know it's wrong but still do it anyways, because I do.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Vellfire on December 04, 2007, 03:32:54 pm
Also when it comes to things that you can't just obtain so easily, I would think it's better the companies don't get anything than some person selling pirated DVDs gets money and the companies STILL don't get anything.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: JoshAP2007 on December 04, 2007, 03:33:32 pm
You have a point. And I do agree.

But I meant to refer to the more recent material released in your area. Like downloading a CD that was released yesterday. That's robbery.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Vellfire on December 04, 2007, 03:34:54 pm
Almost no one here is trying to justify doing that at all.  Most of us are justifying things that aren't that easy to get.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: chanicakes on December 04, 2007, 04:14:09 pm
If it's so bad to download why do the companies now provide it in the same format people now download themselves for free, if they did't want this they could take certain possibly low cost measures that would keep anyone from ripping music and stuff from the cd's. People record at concerts, should they not be allowed there too, piracy today is just another way of saying quit taking the money back from what I took excessively from you.

If CD's weren't up to 40$ a disc I am sure people would buy it more often.... it honestly can cost as little as 14c to manufacture a CD, and for each CD it takes up to 3$ to make it into a saleable product for entertainment... so why do they jack up the price so damn much? Average cost for the entire process for each disc as I have been told was 7$ THE ENTIRE PROCESS ON AVG FOR EACH DISC FOR ANY ARTIST IS ACTUALLY LESS THAN 1/2 IT'S RELEASE PRICE.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: jman00 on December 04, 2007, 04:40:33 pm
Why buy a music CD of only a few song on it you like? I just download the songs I like the most and say fek off to the rest. I download roms and such because like what if I really REALLY wanted to play Super Adventure Island 2, but never played it in such a long time... think I would want to waste another 10 years wanting to play something that i haven't played when I can just bop there we go, can play it through downloading. Seriously, old games like SNES, Gameboy, its not like if we sold em' at a pawnshop we'd make much money we're talkin' 5 bucks or whatever, the only places that games like those are sold are those Video Game Trading shops and those game are expensive as hell. So save the 120 bucks (depending on what it is.) and just download it....

ORRRR you can move to Canada where people don't give a shit if you download anything.  :fogetlaugh:
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Iaman on December 04, 2007, 04:41:54 pm
Quote from: Macubex on December 03, 2007, 02:58:31 pm
That really was a Steel move. You jerk, me and Drule just got over this little argument. We promised each other that we would never call each other names again, no homo x10.

Hmm, now that I have a chance to sit down and reflect, I may have been an asshole.

To behonest I was trying to keep my P Shooter concealed.

To stay on topic:

Here are some very influencial people that have changed my view of piracy entirely.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LkWKvMCzqA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wf4pnY1wFiU


Director Cut of the popular "You wouldn't StEaL..."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8wRxfz_6E7o
Just would like to point out that the second video you linked to is entirely pointless.  We're not BUYING pirated materials, and our downloading them is in no way supporting any criminals.  It is criminalizing ourselves, but that's a different subject entirely.  That has to deal with BOOTLEGGING, this is PIRACY.

EDIT: Also jman00 have you not read ANYTHING about Demonoid in the past few months?
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Blitzen on December 04, 2007, 05:35:11 pm
  As far as music piracy is concerned, it does increase the availability of anykind music, but it has also changed the industry for the individual artist. I hear of artists now ahving to tour a lot more to make up what they would have made in record sales because people aren't buying albums in the numbers that they used to, because of the ease of piracy. Also, I've heard stories about bands having to try and whore our thier songs to companies for promos or commercials as BGMs to make sure they make good money and increase thier popular exposure rather than relying thier niche internet exposure. Of course, because of the internet it is both niche and universal, so there are tradeoffs. I'm not making any kind of judgement call on the issue, but I can see that it has started to change the way that a musician has to do business.
  But I know some musicians and I kinda feel for them, that there are people who know their name but wouldn't support them except with concert tickets and maybe t-shirt sales.
  I can see in some respects that the music industry has started to cope with the loss from internet piracy with things like price regulations and iTunes. From what I see, domestic prices have been starting to be fixed around $1 USD/CDN per track, with certain things costing more for various erroneous reasons. But most of you are right in saying the market place has changed. I can see why there is trouble adapting for all companies to a market where people are less and less willing to participate in it, and would rather benefit without being a consumer.

I dunno... Its all so lofty. I mean, you say you wouldn't want most of the things that you download... so why do you even download them in the first place? Because they're there? I don't get it, really, but that's just me. I don't download anything, really. Maybe some old singles now and then off Limewire and maybe roms from dead consoles once in a while for Nostalgia's sake but that's about it. I've got enough stuff.

EDIT: I would also like to add to the discussion to remember that there is a bit of a bias on GamingW that should be kept in mind and that what we talk about here may not be the norm somewhere else.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on December 04, 2007, 06:53:42 pm
I love how my last post was completely ignored and how people continued to say "I don't buy CDs because artists never see any money from sales anyways"
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Kaempfer on December 04, 2007, 06:59:14 pm
I don't know, I feel bad for the musicians who are losing money from record sales. Sure, smaller bands that are just trying to break out are hurt by it, but they lose exponentially less money, and their primary revenues come from shows and signings, I'd assume. It seems like a strange argument anyways, since aren't musicians playing music for the sake of it, not to make phat loot? I mean, more power to them for doing what they want and getting paid for it, but some people have to shovel poo for minimum wage and no one espouses their cause (unless they are poverty stricken, in which case they get the blanket anti-poverty lobby).

It is the same thing with athletes; they are getting paid millions of dollars for playing a game they presumably love. Sure, they have tough schedules sometimes, but that doesn't translate into 180 million dollars for six years of "work". It directly translates to higher ticket prices (the higher the price, the bigger the owner's cut!).

The musicians are being hurt the most by record sales are also the ones who are the richest, it is a direct correlation. And they have enough money. I am not going to cry if 50 Cent does not get more diamonds because someone pirated his album.

edit: Zeke: A lot of people who pirate albums still buy them for really small bands (the ones who get the money). Generally speaking, the reason they get all the money from the CDs is because it wouldn't be worth selling the song rights to the album company if they didn't, because so few copies will be sold in many cases.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Izekeal on December 04, 2007, 07:10:30 pm
Repost (this post disappeared somewhere)

I love how my last post was completely ignored and how people continued to say "I don't buy CDs because artists never see any money from sales anyways"

Edit: Kaempfer; my point was that people were grouping record labels into a black and white situation, where every record label screwed artists out of money, regardless of how popular the artists were.  Bands signed with independant record labels, or even bands that sell their own CDs that they've recorded, mixed, and mastered themselves, make lots of money off of CD sales.  I was just trying to point out the fact that pirating music to "stick it to the man" is a pretty silly reason, especially when it's not always the case.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Mince Wobley on December 04, 2007, 07:19:51 pm
You people need to realize that piracy isn't something WRONG AND MORALLY UNACCEPTABLE, it's the way of life of the future.
It's OK, there was a time when selling plastic discs with noise or something else encoded into them was profitable and all but it's a thing of the past now, it's no use trying to prevent people from obtaining those noises and files without buying the plastic discs.

This is evolution, look:

- In the past there were vinyl discs
- And then someone invented cassete tapes
- And then someone invented the CD
- And then someone invented the DVD
- And then everything they invented became obsolete for the purposes of SELLING NOISE
- And in the future they will invent something else because it's impossible to stop Piracy.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Iaman on December 04, 2007, 08:05:02 pm
Quote from: Blitzen on December 04, 2007, 05:35:11 pm
I dunno... Its all so lofty. I mean, you say you wouldn't want most of the things that you download... so why do you even download them in the first place? Because they're there? I don't get it, really, but that's just me. I don't download anything, really. Maybe some old singles now and then off Limewire and maybe roms from dead consoles once in a while for Nostalgia's sake but that's about it. I've got enough stuff.
It's not that I wouldn't want them in the first place, necessarily, it's more that I don't want it enough to warrant paying $20 for a CD that I want one song off of that I just want to play every once in a while for nostalgia purposes or for a joke or something.  I pay money for things as a compensation for the enjoyment they give me, and if something isn't going to give me an amount of enjoyment that is worth paying for, it's simply not worth me paying for.

For instance, one of my friends downloaded a Hanson album last year so that she could play the song "Mmmbop" at a party, as her and a few of her friends have some sort of inside joke thing going about with that song.  Normally they'd just sing it but this was different or something.  I don't see why she should have to pay for an entire album just to get that one song so that she can play it that one time, so I think it's perfectly fine for her to have downloaded it.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Fatboys #4 on December 04, 2007, 11:16:20 pm
Regarding music, There ARE bands that actually just want you to listen and enjoy their music and actually mention that if you don't have the money to just download it, but they just want you to have their music. Yeah, cd sales help out in their salary, but if you aren't performing, you aren't making too much money.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: Dapper Swindler on December 06, 2007, 06:20:34 am
Quote from: JoshAP2007 on December 04, 2007, 03:18:53 pm
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Why are people still having this discussion? There's nothing you can do to justify piracy. You're getting something for free that was released in stores, either in this country or another. You'e not paying a cent for it. It's stealing. Just admit that you know it's wrong but still do it anyways, because I do.

Yup.  People try so hard to rationalize it in their minds that it's not stealing.  Isn't it funny how people lose all objectivity?

I pirate stuff all the time, and I know it's wrong.  I just don't care.  I feel like it doesn't really matter since piracy isn't going away and the entertainment industry just has to restructure its business around that fact. 
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: dada on December 06, 2007, 07:28:47 am
Quote from: JoshAP2007 on December 04, 2007, 03:18:53 pm
Bullshit. Bullshit. Bullshit. Why are people still having this discussion? There's nothing you can do to justify piracy. You're getting something for free that was released in stores, either in this country or another. You'e not paying a cent for it.
While it's true that copyright infringement is usually not justifiable, there are several things that prevent this issue from being so easy. The fact that it's illegal is one thing, but this isn't all about the rights of the media companies; it's also about your rights and desires. Put simply, there is more to it than what at first appears on the surface: take the CD-R or MP3 player taxes, for example, or the aggressive tactics employed to curb P2P streams. This is hurting regular consumers as well, and by taking away from them their money and quality of service, they are actually hurting the economy by doing that. Why do they have these rights? It was decided a long time ago that the strategy to combat piracy would be mandated by a balance between legalization, taxes and consumer rights. But you have not been able to exercise those rights very easily, despite the fact that piracy really isn't all as bad as is sometimes suggested.

Sure, there are people who exclusively download things and never actually buy products from the large media companies, but there really aren't as many as you may think. To the overwhelming majority of the people who pirate things, it's simply a matter of having moved on as a society. We no longer go to the music store to listen to a CD we may want to buy. Yet, the media companies seem to have not realized that, and instead are now using this fact to state plainly that they're the poor ones being ripped off.

Quote from: JoshAP2007 on December 04, 2007, 03:33:32 pm
Like downloading a CD that was released yesterday. That's robbery.
No, it's not robbery. It's in fact not even in the same class as robbery, which is a crime; copyright infringement is and has always been a civil issue.

The fact that you would get the two confused means you don't know what you're talking about anyway.

Quote from: Dapper Swindler on December 06, 2007, 06:20:34 am
People try so hard to rationalize it in their minds that it's not stealing.  Isn't it funny how people lose all objectivity?
What's funny is how people think they're legal experts when they can't even tell the difference between a crime and an offense.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on December 06, 2007, 03:50:17 pm
As long as it can happen, it will happen.

The only price you have to pay is not being able to justify it (unless you are a delusional twat), and I for one see it as a price I'm willing to pay.
Title: Internet Piracy
Post by: bonzi_buddy on December 06, 2007, 06:06:01 pm
While i appriciate to have physical copies of my albums, it's much easier and cheaper to just distribute and listen albums in a digital form.

So far music and videogame industry has refused to move to internet stores and/or p2p network, protecting old (outdated...?) trademodels, though a change is slowly occuring (Itunes etc... not to mention Radiohead's recent jab by distributing In Rainbows in digital firm first AND for free)

Over here albums cost 20 euros or more. That's some ridicilous overpricing. Most of the time i don't even have that much of money anyways so my musical taste is pretty focused on few bands.

You know, piracy has always been around, ever since the times of C64. Even then guys shared their cassetes freely with each other and later on had own special bbs-services for those needs. In fact, it is considered that C64 ultimately died of piracy and not exactly of Amiga, as usually said. Tragical, eh? Though i'm sure this will not be the case in the future.

What can be done...? Now, wouldn't the question be more interesting and debatable if it the question would be "Should the situation of internet piracy be fixed"...?





*sips champagne,nods after the monoloque and moves to another fine party of cultural elite, picking a glass of wine on the way