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General Category => Entertainment and Media => Topic started by: Awakening on December 30, 2007, 12:24:09 pm

Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Awakening on December 30, 2007, 12:24:09 pm
Is it just me or IS THIS THE COOLEST IN THE SERIES?
When I was younger I started with FF VII and FF VIII, I'm pretty sure at this point I have played all of them except for FF XI.

Last night I finally beat the game and I'm just astonished at how well put together it was.
I'm hoping there's a ton of you out there that have done the same.

The dialogue, the storyline - it's bittersweet. I feel proud that I beat the game, but the plot was stringing me along so well!
At the end I was almost sad that Balthier could have died. Sad I know.

How do you think this game compares with others in the series?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Tau on December 30, 2007, 01:37:49 pm
Gameplay wise it's better for me, but story wise.. I was lost, by the end I figured it out.. mostly haha. The story just didn't drag me in as much as others in the series, but still ALOT better then Final Fantasy X in my opinion. Had some interesting characters(Balthier is the man!!) and some just kinda there for the sake of being there.(Penelo)

The wealth of secrets and side quests were great and the Clan missions was something to delve into, but I wish their was a mini game that was in the game, like in Final Fantasy X it was Blitzball(Best part of the game for me) and Final Fantasy VII had Gold Saucer, VIII & IX had the card game, but Final Fantasy XII had nothing really, was kinda disappointed in that.

All in all good game, not the best in the series, but up in the top 5 I would say.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Rowain on December 30, 2007, 01:39:16 pm
You were actually INTRIGUED by the plot? I found it was developed so slowly and sparingly that it was hard to stay interested. Cutscene, 2 hour dungeon crawl, small cutscene, 1 hour crawl, big cutscene, 3 hour crawl... etc.

Though, I've definitely gotta agree that the game was a pleasure to look at. The graphics were practically next gen despite being on extremely old hardware, and the voice acting was generally quite excellent, though obviously reduced quality just to allow all of it to fit on the disc. I found the gameplay pretty fun too - the battle system was a hit/miss type thing with many people, but I liked it. It had one of the weakest casts in a Final Fantasy I think, with Vaan feeling somewhat rehashed, and Penelo and Basch feeling somewhat forgotten, but I liked Balthier and Fran.

Anyway, FFXII was definitely a step in the right direction after the dung heap that was FFX and FFX-2, and I did appreciate the political tensions theme as opposed to the usual metrosexual evil wizard dude trying to collect ____ to conquer the world. I just wish they had given us MORE of those beautiful cutscenes, or just more rapid plot development in general. Still a cool game.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Ohlichris on December 30, 2007, 02:53:43 pm
I kind of agree with Rowain about the plot. To me it developed real slowly and I think there could have been a little more to it. I disliked how most dungeons were just dungeons, not really that important to the plot. I think there were way too little cutscenes in the game, which I noticed a lot more in dungeons and towns. Just felt a little different from the other games. There should've also been more backstory for the main characters (it would have been awesome if it were like FFVI which handled backstories very well).

I really like the battle system in this game. It's actually very similar to the others, but just faster. I did dislike some things though. I never really felt the need to use magic, unless it was white or green magic (and occasionally arcane and time magic), which felt very different from past games. There should've been more strategies involving magic. I did like the number of spells they included in the game (reminded me of FFV and FFVI). Technicks weren't exactly useful either, except for a few.
It was cool that there were a lot of Espers, but the way they handled them in battle could've been a lot better. You usually had to buff them with all sorts of magic before bringing them to boss battles. Another thing that bothered me was the license board. While it was cool, it kind of ruined character individuality (which didn't really help the fact that the characters needed to be fleshed out just a little more).

The game is still one of my favourites though. It had a great big world and fun gameplay.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: jman00 on December 30, 2007, 03:05:58 pm
FFXII was absolutly terrible... I personally couldn't get myself to play this. They just HAD to base their battle system from FFXI and that game was even worse then FFXII. BUT I won't give FFXII too much shame, I was a lil' impressed with the Liscence system, it certainly reminded me of FFTactics, so you can choose what kind of a character you want your guys, it gives off that Saga Frontier feeling, one other plus I will give is the music, the music was good to listen to.

But the battle system as I mentioned before, terrible... completely terrible... if it had FFX-2's battle system (horrible story, the gameplay was fantastic.) then I'd be more pleased, but that's not all I have to complain about the game, you have to constantly go to the menu, and change so much shit, just to get through another area... its just not worth all the trouble.

The characters weren't very inviting... except for Balthier, he kicked ass, he was my favorite, and Dr.Cid. Those two were my favs, but all the others were just mneh, it really didn't give much time to show much about the character or whatever.

All in all, I think this game was just a big overeaction, just like how FF7 was, but the difference between those two were, FF7's battle system was simple and not annoying, while FF12's system makes me want to punch the creators right in the face.

All in all, 4/10. There's my review for this game. Play it if you played FF11, if you are old school and don't want things to be changed like myself, then I recommend don't play this god awful game.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: UPRC on December 30, 2007, 04:30:09 pm
I don't know, jman00.. The battle system was different yeah, but it wasn't shit. It took a little getting used to, but I really liked it in the end. It was much more strategic than the typical ATB battles of past games.

Also, you had way more control over your party at all times. I actually felt like I was controlling them. I never had gambits on or anything, because that ruined the fun and the challenge.


(sorry if the post reads weird in any way, I haven't even been awake for 10 minutes)
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on December 30, 2007, 04:32:47 pm
To me, the gameplay was a turn in the right direction.  I like how "traditional" turn-based ATTACK ATTACK HEAL RPG's are turning into games that require the modest bit of skill/moderation to complete and while the gambit system pretty much did the fighting for you (if you knew how to use it wisely) the implementation of a skill system (excuse me, licenses) felt good to me.  I didn't appreciate trudging through LARGE OPEN FIELDS especially considering there was nothing to do but KILL KILL KILL but if this system was interpretted properly, it could be really refreshing.

But the story was blech.  I was super excited that the game took place in Ivalice because Final Fantasy Tactic's story is GOD as far as videogames go but everything just seemed like a total step down from it.  The whole "political intrigue" was pretty much dumbed down and the game introduced all the annoying anime cliches that I hated like bunny women, flamboyently dressed teenagers, and ambigious "what gender are they???" men.  I can't blame the writers for not making it like Tactics since that was a totally different team, but when I think of Ivalice I think of ALTERNATE DARK FANTASY MEDIEVAL EUROPE and this game wasn't that.

As everyone else said, the pacing blew.  I actually preferred Final Fantasy X because the pacing was perfect.  It actually felt like you were going on a grand adventure similar to Lord of the Rings, and the fact that the world was a literal linear circle was a really nice atmospheric touch.  
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: UPRC on December 30, 2007, 04:36:49 pm
It was based more on the Ivalice of Tactics Advance. You know, the cuter, happier, kiddy Ivalice. :)
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on December 30, 2007, 04:45:12 pm
And that's why I hate it.  Square is basically denying the existence of Tactics' Ivalice.  The whole point behind Final Fantasy Tactics Advance was that the world wasn't real and while I hated that game, I thought the story was pretty interesting: what would you do if you discovered your vision of paradise was in fact A DREAM?

My disapointment when I found out that they're continuing the MADE UP Ivalice and completely blowing off the cool one cannot be measured. 

Fuck Square.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on December 30, 2007, 05:20:55 pm
No, the made up Ivalice is still just that, made up. In the timeline, Final Fantasy XII is a few hundred years before Final Fantasy Tactics, but still in the same universe.

The timeline works like this

Final Fantasy 12-Final Fantasy 12 Revenant Wings----------Final Fantasy Tactics-----------Vagrant Story
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on December 30, 2007, 05:27:40 pm
Where the hell did you get this info because I've heard nothing of it nor found any evidence in game to connect something as ridiculous as Final Fantasy 12 with Vagrant Story.

What happened to the bunny women?  What about the flying airships?  Why did the ugly bear like moogles in FF12 suddenly turn into the cute white moogles everyone knows and loves in Tactics? 

Or is this one of those "behind the scenes" storylines where everything is pieced together via hearsay and assumptions like every Legend of Zelda game?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on December 30, 2007, 05:32:46 pm
Where the hell did you get this info because I've heard nothing of it nor found any evidence in game to connect something as ridiculous as Final Fantasy 12 with Vagrant Story.

What happened to the bunny women?  What about the flying airships?  Why did the ugly bear like moogles in FF12 suddenly turn into the cute white moogles everyone knows and loves in Tactics? 

Or is this one of those "behind the scenes" storylines where everything is pieced together via hearsay and assumptions like every Legend of Zelda game?

The timeline and the footnotes with it are in the official (official, as in from Square) Final Fantasy 12 Ultimania. First of all, as far as the airships, some great catastrophe happened, and the technology was lost (as referenced in Goug), second, there WERE no moogles in Tactics, they went extinct, remember? As far as the Viera, I don't know. Given that there area that Tactics takes place in is relatively small, one can assume humans only populated it. Or Viera could be extinct, it's not confirmed yet.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on December 30, 2007, 05:42:57 pm
I just did some research and I think it's pretty bullshit.  It seems that Square and Matsuno (the guy who created Ivalice) are trying to retcon Ivalice as a basic "term" instead of the world itself (as it was originally in Final Fantasy Tactics).  Vagrant Story took place in Valendia and made no references to Tactics but suddenly because a few names pop up in FF12 they suddenly want to connect the entire series?

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there WERE no moogles in Tactics, they went extinct, remember?
The cheapest summon is moogle which summoned the furry white clown nose moogles everyone knows and loves.

Quote
Or Viera could be extinct, it's not confirmed yet

Or Square just ran out of ideas in their attempt to create a new "franchise."

I just think the whole "Ivalice Alliance" thing is pretty stupid.  Long history or not, it's pretty retarded to take several different franchises and try to mold them together with so very little common ground.  It wasn't until FF12 that Square suddenly decided to merge the game worlds together and they're trying to grasp at straws by using unexplained story mechanics as excuses for what happened to the world. 

As I said earlier "Fuck Square."  I'm tired of them milking good ideas by shitting out bad products.  I would have been much happier knowing FFT was it's own self contained universe instead of an ongoing series of spinoffs and degenerate products.  My opinion may change if they find an intelligent way to connect the events of FF12 with the War of the Lions but until then, I see this as a horrible cop out. 
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on December 30, 2007, 05:53:47 pm
I just did some research and I think it's pretty bullshit.  It seems that Square and Matsuno (the guy who created Ivalice) are trying to retcon Ivalice as a basic "term" instead of the world itself (as it was originally in Final Fantasy Tactics).  Vagrant Story took place in Valendia and made no references to Tactics but suddenly because a few names pop up in FF12 they suddenly want to connect the entire series?
The cheapest summon is moogle which summoned the furry white clown nose moogles everyone knows and loves.

Or Square just ran out of ideas in their attempt to create a new "franchise."

I just think the whole "Ivalice Alliance" thing is pretty stupid.  Long history or not, it's pretty retarded to take several different franchises and try to mold them together with so very little common ground.  It wasn't until FF12 that Square suddenly decided to merge the game worlds together and they're trying to grasp at straws by using unexplained story mechanics as excuses for what happened to the world. 

As I said earlier "Fuck Square."  I'm tired of them milking good ideas by shitting out bad products.  I would have been much happier knowing FFT was it's own self contained universe instead of an ongoing series of spinoffs and degenerate products.  My opinion may change if they find an intelligent way to connect the events of FF12 with the War of the Lions but until then, I see this as a horrible cop out. 

I mean, yeah, it's pretty shitty HOW they're linking the series together, but it is official. I was of the opinion that they're going to release more games to explain more logically how the series links together. There also could be more info in the Ultimanias that have yet to be fully translated.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: lil_Vivi on December 30, 2007, 05:58:38 pm
I actually like the thought of this game. It seems fun. I haven't really played it yet, but I did read up on some story about a year ago. I wasn't too thrilled, but this doesn't seem like a story FF anyway. It's sort of more like gameplay, I suppose, right?

Combing FFIV V VI and XII together... get the best game ever.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on December 30, 2007, 06:16:38 pm
I looooovvveeee FFXII. Granted there were a few anime cliches, they at least lowered them in terms of previous final fantasies. I'm an exploration whore, and this game had a huge vast world for my greedy little whore hands to grab ass at. I enjoyed the story, but that was only because when I first played it, the story confused me, and someone recommended I look at the story a different way. At first I thought Vaan was the main character, and I felt the game didn't tell me enough about him. Then someone told me the story was just being told through Vaan's perspective, and that it wasn't really about Vaan to begin with. SO I tried the game again with the advice about the story to see if it made more sense. It did. I really don't know how, but the game felt alot more fleshed out, since I wasn't focusing on Vaan anymore. To me the whole game felt more real. I mean, alot of what happened to Final Fantasy after FF7 was "Whiny Male Lead with sword takes on teh WORLD!!!!9999999damage!!!!!" (with the exception of FF9) and this game felt more cohesive. The Gambit System was a hug plus for me. It really made battles easier and had a little strategy behind it. I do have to agree with Angry Black Man on the whole Ivalice bit. Although I really enjoyed this game, I felt at some point they really shouldn't of just thrown the Ivalice tag on this game. But then again, FFT still remains my favorite FF of all time, so maybe that might be why I see it like that. Another reason I love this game is Vayne. I wish FF had more villains like this. He wasn't defined by weapons or looks (I'm looking at you Sephiroth), but rather by his actions (I know that sounds cheesy). It felt good that Square was finally lowering the amount of Anime they let influence there games (although there is still some in FFXII), this game was definitely a huge step up from previous Final Fantasies (FF7,8,X,X-2, you get the picture).

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if you are old school and don't want things to be changed like myself, then I recommend don't play this god awful game.
I'm a huge fan of old school RPGs, and this game was definitely good. The battle system wasn't by any means very easy to grab on to, but it wasn't that complicated. Like UPRC said, it was an improvement strategy-wise compared to previous FFs.

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I never really felt the need to use magic, unless it was white or green magic (and occasionally arcane and time magic), which felt very different from past games. There should've been more strategies involving magic.
Really? Because I can't recall how many times magicks have saved my ass. Specifically during the Chaos battle. Scathe was a life saver. Plus the Oil + Firaga combo pretty much destroyed anything.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Rowain on December 30, 2007, 06:20:48 pm
All in all, 4/10. There's my review for this game. Play it if you played FF11, if you are old school and don't want things to be changed like myself, then I recommend don't play this god awful game.

This attitude is pretty destructive to the game industry as a whole dude. Like can you not see the inherant problem in that sort of attitude? Would you actually be SATISFIED playing jrpg rehashes for the rest of your GAMING LIFE? Don't like the battle system etc OK, whatever, but hating the game because YOU DON'T LIKE CHANGE ((TOO OLDSCHOOL)) is so awful.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: local_dunce on December 30, 2007, 06:26:36 pm
The battle system was the huge selling point of this game for me and is what kept me playing. The characters were really hollow and weak, the storyline was slow and pretty boring and even a lot of the locations felt like they had no effort put into them. There were some scenes and locations that were pretty cool where you actually felt you could explore them and that was fun but really the whole appeal of this game was just me running from location to location fighting things. I got to some AIRSHIP point in the game and gave up after that because I had got to like level 87 or something and was just one shotting everything and it got boring.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on December 30, 2007, 06:29:11 pm
The battle system was the huge selling point of this game for me and is what kept me playing. The characters were really hollow and weak, the storyline was slow and pretty boring and even a lot of the locations felt like they had no effort put into them. There were some scenes and locations that were pretty cool where you actually felt you could explore them and that was fun but really the whole appeal of this game was just me running from location to location fighting things. I got to some AIRSHIP point in the game and gave up after that because I had got to like level 87 or something and was just one shotting everything and it got boring.
Try the 122333 challenge. It'll keep things pretty difficult.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: UPRC on December 30, 2007, 08:52:06 pm
This attitude is pretty destructive to the game industry as a whole dude. Like can you not see the inherant problem in that sort of attitude? Would you actually be SATISFIED playing jrpg rehashes for the rest of your GAMING LIFE? Don't like the battle system etc OK, whatever, but hating the game because YOU DON'T LIKE CHANGE ((TOO OLDSCHOOL)) is so awful.

I agree. I'm all for old-school, but without CHANGE and NEW IDEAS, the gaming industry would have died long ago. Change is good.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: theHunter on December 30, 2007, 09:41:48 pm
IMO, FFXII was the best FF since FFVI.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Ragnar on December 30, 2007, 10:35:27 pm
Hmm, maybe I should've gotten XII today. I'm kind of really jaded these days and I got the Devil May Cry collection for $30 and I don't think I would've gotten it otherwise if it weren't $10 a game. Maybe it's just because I have no time these days and it's like "yeah game you owe me $10 plus TIME too"

Although FFXII went down a lot... it was like $18 or something for the 'collectors' edition. What does that mean again?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: maladroithim on December 30, 2007, 10:46:40 pm
Although FFXII went down a lot... it was like $18 or something for the 'collectors' edition. What does that mean again?

The collector's edition features a DVD video disc containing a bunch of video clips that had been on YouTube for months prior to the game's release.  You also get an obnoxious metal case that the paint scratches off of easily.  I had to buy it because they were out of standard copies at my store when I went to pick up on midnight :(
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Kitsune Inferno on December 30, 2007, 10:56:58 pm
FF12 is the most fun I've had in a FF game. All of the sidequests keep you busy for MONTHS! While I haven't played the game recently because my PS2 is broken, it certainly is up there with FF6 and FF8, my absolute favorites.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Aten on December 30, 2007, 10:57:11 pm
My summary:

The Good:

- Really nice gameplay
- Wonderful massive world
- Gambits made me feel like I'm using C++ all over again :D

The Bad:

- Sucky ass characters
- Fucken pathetic story
- Really uninteresting cutscenes
- Summons that actually die IN ONE HIT
- Quickening = FAIL (Should have stuck with Limit Breaks)
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Dead Phoenix on December 31, 2007, 12:49:07 am
I was going to say i hate the battle system, but after reading this topic i realized my problem isn't the battle system itself i hate, its the gambit system.  Which is funny, because when they first announced it I was against the new battle system until they revealed the gambits(it'll be just like programing!), but once I got a ways into the game i noticed i wasn't doing much other thing updating spell gambits every couple of dungeons or turning them on/off depending on the situation(which is a fairly annoying process).  Maybe if i turned off all the gambits(except probably auto attacking ones) I could enjoy it more, but trying to keep up with the late game marks with 3 people(who i have not grinded to god like levels) at max battle speed... i don't think i could pull it off(and i'm not about to start grinding now). I do plan to finish the game and maybe even take out that boss with the billion hp or whatever though.

Anyways, though i haven't finish it yet i have enjoyed the story so far(between dungeons), but its nothing special.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on December 31, 2007, 01:05:14 am
Really? Because I can't recall how many times magicks have saved my ass. Specifically during the Chaos battle. Scathe was a life saver. Plus the Oil + Firaga combo pretty much destroyed anything.

Actually later in the game magic becomes a huge disadvantage because of a technical aspect; while a magic animation is taking place, all ally actions STOP. This is especially apparent with longer animations for certain magics, and when you consider the fact that this doesn't apply to enemies, you find that offensive magic is almost worthless later in the game.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Sarhan on December 31, 2007, 01:16:31 am
FFXII is definitely one of the better FF games. I used to play FFXI (which has an almost identical battle system) and FFXII's felt like a faster version of XI's, which I liked. The summons and quickenings were crap, but the rest of it was really cool. The cast was pretty shitty and uninteresting but I liked the atmosphere and world a lot. Plus the game had a ton of side quests and other stuff to keep you interested. The story was kind of slow, but it was bearable.

Overall, it's easily one of my favorite Final Fantasy games.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Ryan on December 31, 2007, 03:55:00 am
I thought the game would have been much better if there were more cutscenes and a stronger cast.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Cho on December 31, 2007, 09:06:36 am
I played FF12 as a Hunter. I looked at the plot as just an excuse to open up new locations so I could hunt things there. I would forget where exactly I was supposed to be going, or why I was supposed to be going a lot. But it was ok, because I was having fun genociding all the monsters!

I loved the idea of the storyline, where your party is sort of in the background of world events rather than being the focus of them, like in FFT, I guess. I also liked how Ashe was the protagonist, despite Vaan being the player's character. On the other hand: I can pretty much hear the script writer/scenario designer saying, "Star Wars, what is this Star Wars you speak of? I've never heard of such a thing!" The execution of the storyline leaves much to be desired though.

The art direction was amazing for the most part, the characters all managed to be dressed utterly ridiculously but somehow managed to still fit into the world. I mean, Ashe's pink miniskirt, Fran's battle bikini and Basch's board shorts + sandals didn't bother me nearly as much as they should have. What did bother me was Vaan's freaky carapace abs. The new summon beast designs were great (and its unfortunate that they sucked so hard in actual gameplay).

There were a few places where it slipped up. The jungle looked, which is adjacent to a snow field, and felt more like a cavern.

I liked a lot of the weapon options, but was disappointed to find out that so many of them were so utterly useless.

The cast was fairly hit-or-miss, but Ashe got points for having a backbone. I was sad that Fran turned out to be your standard issue "Elf living among humans."

I had fun tinkering with my characters. I went the route of customizing each party member into a certain job (Ashe was a Paladin, Vaan was a Black Mage, Penelo was a Gunner-Cleric, Fran was a Warrior, Balthier was a Support Magician, and Basch was a Monk, although he had to start taking up the use of weaponry because he wasn't doing so well without it)...
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: maladroithim on December 31, 2007, 04:46:31 pm
What did bother me was Vaan's freaky carapace abs.

Yeah, his inverted abs were extremely disturbing.  It was awful.

I really liked FFXII in just about every aspect.  I may have preferred certain elements had been executed differently, and I thought that the battle system made exploring a snap but led to confusing and anticlimactic boss battles (and holy crap I can't believe there was no gambit for Steal: Item Not Stolen), but all said it was a pretty brilliant title and one of my favorites on PS2.  I think it's too bad that fans of RPGs really love to split hairs when compairing games; I would bet that most of the people complaining that this game utterly sucks had actually played through the entire game or at least most of it, and enjoyed every minute of it.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Ghost_Aspergers on December 31, 2007, 04:51:13 pm
I never played FF12 but.... is the gambit system like botting?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: maladroithim on December 31, 2007, 04:53:27 pm
I never played FF12 but.... is the gambit system like botting?

A bit.  That's how some people play.  I think the idea was that repetitive actions (like making sure your support magic user casts protect all the time) can be automated while you dictate specific commands to party members whenever it is important.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on December 31, 2007, 06:19:34 pm
Actually later in the game magic becomes a huge disadvantage because of a technical aspect; while a magic animation is taking place, all ally actions STOP. This is especially apparent with longer animations for certain magics, and when you consider the fact that this doesn't apply to enemies, you find that offensive magic is almost worthless later in the game.
You can actually take advantage of that. For example, I usually have someone with the Masamune+Genji Glove+Beserk+Bravery+Haste combo let loose while I have someone else dish out a long animation spell (preferably Scathe or Holy) and the enemy (if they are casting or using skills) along with any other character I have using a spell will freeze during the animation, meanwhile my Beserked character will let loose and do some serious damage. Its probly the only way I managed to defeat the Hell Wyrm, except I used Curaja instead of Scathe or Holy. Which would also slow down the Hell Wyrm from using Darkga or Blizzaga or whatever during the animation load. But my beserked character still get going. Its actually a pretty useful thing, if used right. But you are right in it can be a disadvantage at times. I've had a few KO's do to that situation. The key I figured out is to not have every single one of your characters cast something at once. Thats why I usually just designate a magic user while the other two characters just hack away at the enemy.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Sarah on December 31, 2007, 07:15:08 pm
Yeah, I never found the long spell times crippling at all. As a matter of fact, they helped me when fighting Yiazmat because it told me when to get the fuck out of there with at least one of my characters. I am pretty sure that + the reserve characters are the only reason I managed to kick his ass (after about 8 hours of battling, total though :(​)
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: maladroithim on January 02, 2008, 04:29:08 am
I thought that the 9999 damage limit was the biggest handicap for spells.  Without any significant grinding, a person will start inflicting 9999 damage with magic long before the end of the game, leaving spellcasters with no more room to grow.  Normal attacks, which take much less time, will hit the limit around the same time.  Magic becomes useless less because of spell animations or other technical aspects but more because the Final Fantasy series is retarded and limits damage values to 9999.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: HL on January 02, 2008, 04:33:27 am
I thought that the 9999 damage limit was the biggest handicap for spells.  Without any significant grinding, a person will start inflicting 9999 damage with magic long before the end of the game, leaving spellcasters with no more room to grow.  Normal attacks, which take much less time, will hit the limit around the same time.  Magic becomes useless less because of spell animations or other technical aspects but more because the Final Fantasy series is retarded and limits damage values to 9999.

a number limit doesn't make it retarded, it has to have a limit SOME TIME.

the growth rates make it retarded.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on January 02, 2008, 05:18:36 am
I don't know why they put the 9999 cap on.  After playing FFX and specifically working to break the damage cap, I was pretty confident that Square would never include it in another game again.

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a number limit doesn't make it retarded, it has to have a limit SOME TIME.

the growth rates make it retarded.

Regardless, it's a really retarded balance issue.  If they wanted to make attacks actually have some effect, then monsters and characters should have the same basic attributes but in almost EVERY jrpg, monsters will have ridiculously high health while having ridiculously low defense (which is completely opposite on the player characters part).  Simply making ONE ALGORITHM for calculating damage and keeping it balanced would eliminate the need to have such stupidly high numbers but I learned that a lot of people like seeing characters with 5,000 hp doing 100 points of damage even though a character with 500 hp that does 10 points of damage is the exact same thing.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on January 02, 2008, 05:28:40 am
I learned that a lot of people like seeing characters with 5,000 hp doing 100 points of damage even though a character with 500 hp that does 10 points of damage is the exact same thing.
So is a character with 50 HP doing 1 damage, but I think most players nowadays don't like seeing low numbers.
Hell, I'm guilty of this myself. Although I think that a damage cap of 9999 is high enough. As for the magic issue. I think it definitely had its place. Mainly because of its area ability. I'm not going to argue the speed issue, normal attacks are way faster than magics, but they have there place. They do not become useless, as the matter of fact, Magic is ridiculously helpful in many situations. I.E (Firaga against Pyralaster, Darkga pot shots against Yaizmat, etc.)

EDIT: I mean, look at games like Final Fantasy Tactics, the damage cap is 999, but the damage system there is still pretty well balanced.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 02, 2008, 05:30:31 am
How is 9999 high enough when most attacks have the capability to break that point near the middle of the game? Especially when FFX worked perfectly without the damage cap?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Sarah on January 02, 2008, 05:33:38 am
So is a character with 50 HP doing 1 damage, but I think most players nowadays don't like seeing low numbers.
this is very true.

in ffx there was an incredibly satisfying feeling about taking out like 20,000 hp in a hit.


probably why nippon ichi games sell so well
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on January 02, 2008, 05:41:30 am
How is 9999 high enough when most attacks have the capability to break that point near the middle of the game? Especially when FFX worked perfectly without the damage cap?

Because you really don't need to see 1347285024 damage on the fucking screen, let alone do that much damage. Hell, most monster will be slaughtered mid game if you can do 9999 damage. Hell, even near the end of the game 9999 is still ridiculously high. If there was no limit, you would get this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RSLdB54R44

And if you really want to do over 9999 damage on FFXII, there are several methods to do this

A.) Dark Matter + Knots of Rust Farming (Doing enough of it can get Shemhazai to do 60,000 damage with her limit break or whatever the fuck its called.
B.) Zodiark = 50,000 damage.
C.) Balance + Bubble + 1 HP
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 02, 2008, 05:50:14 am
Because you really don't need to see 1347285024 damage on the fucking screen, let alone do that much damage. Hell, most monster will be slaughtered mid game if you can do 9999 damage. Hell, even near the end of the game 9999 is still ridiculously high. If there was no limit, you would get this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1RSLdB54R44

And if you really want to do over 9999 damage on FFXII, there are several methods to do this

A.) Dark Matter + Knots of Rust Farming (Doing enough of it can get Shemhazai to do 60,000 damage with her limit break or whatever the fuck its called.
B.) Zodiark = 50,000 damage.
C.) Balance + Bubble + 1 HP

Yeah, you're right, there isn't any need to do that much damage in FF12, but only because the game was so easy. One thing I loved about FFX were bosses that you had no hope of beating unless you could break the damage limit, and were so strong they broke the damage limit themselves when they hit you (doing almost 45,000 damage) and had HP in the few millions. I loved that, and I have no idea why they regressed to the "No damage limit, everything's easy and enemies (except for Yiazmat, I guess) are pussies".
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on January 02, 2008, 06:06:28 am
Yeah, you're right, there isn't any need to do that much damage in FF12, but only because the game was so easy. One thing I loved about FFX were bosses that you had no hope of beating unless you could break the damage limit, and were so strong they broke the damage limit themselves when they hit you (doing almost 45,000 damage) and had HP in the few millions. I loved that, and I have no idea why they regressed to the "No damage limit, everything's easy and enemies (except for Yiazmat, I guess) are pussies".
There are several challenges to take up this problem (122333, Streaker Challenge, No Gambit, etc), I will admit that FFXII did have some of the easiest bosses I've ever fought. Granted the only enemy thats ever made me worry were the Abyssteels in Henne Mines (sp?), and not to mention, this game had so many ways of overpowering your character (chaining Dustia anyone?) that you could shit on most bosses without even lifting a finger. Which is why I guess they decided to include some semi-tough hunts. Hell, even Yiazmat can be beaten with relative ease. Also, pretty much every boss in FFX could be beaten without breaking the damage limit. Its been proven via no sphere grid challenge. Actually, you could pretty much beat any FF game with relative ease.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on January 02, 2008, 06:08:14 am
Quote
Actually, you could pretty much beat any FF game with relative ease.

Except for FFIV who's battle system was so stupidly broken that the only way TO WIN was to grind.

Odin couldn't even kill the standard moon enemies.  What a fucking waste.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 02, 2008, 06:15:59 am
There are several challenges to take up this problem (122333, Streaker Challenge, No Gambit, etc), I will admit that FFXII did have some of the easiest bosses I've ever fought. Granted the only enemy thats ever made me worry were the Abyssteels in Henne Mines (sp?), and not to mention, this game had so many ways of overpowering your character (chaining Dustia anyone?) that you could shit on most bosses without even lifting a finger. Which is why I guess they decided to include some semi-tough hunts. Hell, even Yiazmat can be beaten with relative ease. Also, pretty much every boss in FFX could be beaten without breaking the damage limit. Its been proven via no sphere grid challenge. Actually, you could pretty much beat any FF game with relative ease.

I see what you're saying, but I hate it when people tell me "Well, there are plenty of challenges to solve the difficulty problem". Why should I have to intentionally cripple myself to make the game challenging? I hate having to resort to that; I want games that provide a healthy challenge from the get go.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Sarah on January 02, 2008, 06:21:33 am
Yeah, you're right, there isn't any need to do that much damage in FF12, but only because the game was so easy. One thing I loved about FFX were bosses that you had no hope of beating unless you could break the damage limit, and were so strong they broke the damage limit themselves when they hit you (doing almost 45,000 damage) and had HP in the few millions. I loved that, and I have no idea why they regressed to the "No damage limit, everything's easy and enemies (except for Yiazmat, I guess) are pussies".
omega mk 12 was pretty fucking badass. he didn't have a lot of hp but his SUPER HASTE or whatever that cause him to constantly be attacking was pretty bad. I died against him several times before finally getting it.

which didn't help because the great crystal is quite possibly the WORST FUCKING DUNGEON EVER and when you lose... well. :(
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: HL on January 02, 2008, 06:22:11 am
I see what you're saying, but I hate it when people tell me "Well, there are plenty of challenges to solve the difficulty problem". Why should I have to intentionally cripple myself to make the game challenging? I hate having to resort to that; I want games that provide a healthy challenge from the get go.

Fucking right.

I hate the NSGBGVGWHATEVERTHEFUCKLETTERRRSSSSCCCCCCHALLENGE shit they do at like GameFAQs and crap.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on January 02, 2008, 06:26:50 am
Except for FFIV who's battle system was so stupidly broken that the only way TO WIN was to grind.

Odin couldn't even kill the standard moon enemies.  What a fucking waste.
I remember playing it on the SNES and found myself going "Oh FUCK ME" near the end of the game when I found out every time I ran, It added EXP to the amount I need to level up, making leveling up hard, but thats because I was stupid and ran away from most battles because I really didn't feel like fighting. The I played it again with minimal running and found myself needing much less EXP to level up.
I.E. First time I played it I need like a million EXP to get to Lv 40.
Second time I only needed like 60,000.
Don't know if it was a glitch or anything but it really fucking sucked.

omega mk 12 was pretty fucking badass. he didn't have a lot of hp but his SUPER HASTE or whatever that cause him to constantly be attacking was pretty bad. I died against him several times before finally getting it.

which didn't help because the great crystal is quite possibly the WORST FUCKING DUNGEON EVER and when you lose... well. :(
God I hated that Dungeon SOOO MUCH! Not to mention they crippled Omega Mk 12 in the US version, and hes still fucking hard as hell.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 02, 2008, 06:33:44 am
omega mk 12 was pretty fucking badass. he didn't have a lot of hp but his SUPER HASTE or whatever that cause him to constantly be attacking was pretty bad. I died against him several times before finally getting it.

which didn't help because the great crystal is quite possibly the WORST FUCKING DUNGEON EVER and when you lose... well. :(

Oh yeah, forgot about Omega MK XII. Fuck that motherfucker and the Great Crystal. Fuck 'em both in the ass.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 03, 2008, 01:54:30 am
I'm not really going to bother reading much of this, but have one thing to say. FFXII was the worst, it wasn't event Final Fantasy... It was Final Politics. Uncool... Real uncool...

When will they stop going futuristic and go back to the Fantasy... Come on...
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: XxSylverxX on January 03, 2008, 02:12:52 am
im pretty sure that ff12 wasnt very futuristic at all but okay!
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 03, 2008, 02:15:23 am
im pretty sure that ff12 wasnt very futuristic at all but okay!
Really, you didn't find floating giant cities futuristic.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: XxSylverxX on January 03, 2008, 02:19:16 am
no i found that magical fantasy fairytale especially when it was powered by magic.

ps: i jsut noticed you have a quiz in your sig from both ff7 and 8 which are both infinitely more futuristic then ff12
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Sarhan on January 03, 2008, 02:20:08 am
I'm not really going to bother reading much of this, but have one thing to say. FFXII was the worst, it wasn't event Final Fantasy... It was Final Politics. Uncool... Real uncool...

When will they stop going futuristic and go back to the Fantasy... Come on...

Just because it's different from the other FF games doesn't mean it sucks. Granted the story was presented kind of slow, it was still entertaining (to me at least). Final Fantasy Tactics was much more focused on politics than XII and it's one of the best FF games made.

Really, you didn't find floating giant cities futuristic.

Dude...other FF games have had flying shit before. That doesn't mean they're futuristic. What about airships? Every FF game has those and they're futuristic. FF VII and VIII had cars. Those are futuristic. FFX was more futuristic than XII was.

The setting doesn't affect how good a game is.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tsimehC on January 03, 2008, 02:26:33 am
This game looked good since it was released and now that's down to under £10 on January sales I might pick it up but how does this compare to FFXII: RW on the DS? I played nearly half way through that and I was just wondering if the story plot is the same.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 03, 2008, 02:30:03 am
The setting doesn't affect how good a game is.
Actually it kinda does, it's one of the reasons I liked games such as prince of persia but never loved them. It was a crap setting.
Quote
Just because it's different from the other FF games doesn't mean it sucks. Granted the story was presented kind of slow, it was still entertaining (to me at least). Final Fantasy Tactics was much more focused on politics than XII and it's one of the best FF games made.
Well it definitely wasn't the worst. FF4 has that award hands down.
Quote
Dude...other FF games have had flying shit before. That doesn't mean they're futuristic. What about airships? Every FF game has those and they're futuristic. FF VII and VIII had cars. Those are futuristic. FFX was more futuristic than XII was.
I never said they didn't but they just really need to tone it down if anything. At least in 10 they kinda destroyed a lot of the machines.

The one thing I did like about FFXII was the fact that it's strongest weapon was a spear. And it's total customising of the characters. But aside from those things it was mostly flawed.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Cho on January 03, 2008, 03:42:31 am
Really, you didn't find floating giant cities futuristic.

Sweet'ums, Final Fantasy 1 had the Giant Floating Cities. Like, Giant Technological Floating Cities. And an airship, powered by a magical stone. This is, if I'm remembering things correctly, the same thing that powers the airships and whatnot in Final Fantasy XII.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on January 03, 2008, 03:01:26 pm
[quote ]
Actually it kinda does, it's one of the reasons I liked games such as prince of persia but never loved them. It was a crap setting.
Quote
The setting was perfect for the story. It was definitely a breath of fresh air to me.

Quote
Well it definitely wasn't the worst. FF4 has that award hands down.
That is debatable

Quote
I never said they didn't but they just really need to tone it down if anything. At least in 10 they kinda destroyed a lot of the machines.
Destroyed alot of the- What the fuck does that have to do with anything. FFX was definitely more futuristic than most FF games combined. The main Character jumper 1000 years into the future.

Quote
The one thing I did like about FFXII was the fact that it's strongest weapon was a spear. And it's total customising of the characters. But aside from those things it was mostly flawed.
Actually, its a bow now. Apparently the International Version has change alot of things from the regular version.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: jamie on January 03, 2008, 08:26:16 pm
heh fuckin schooled that fool tomohawkjoe

oh and hey "lainge" (whatever) if you like medievil shit so much do you think ff9 is the bes ff of all time? cos if you do, then you opinion is void. that game was so gay is fucked it's uncle man. apart from trance kuja, but he was an exception he prolly belonged in ff7 i guess but then sephiroth just would've went "heh fuck u bitch" and struck him down like he struck down that cheap slut aeris who gave it away for free.

back to my point - don't like politics huh "lamge"? well guess what you probably live in a country with politics so that means your a fucken communiss.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: maladroithim on January 03, 2008, 09:29:55 pm
that game was so gay is fucked it's uncle man.

Anyway, I wasn't arguing that FFXII having a limit of 9999 damage was a problem; I was arguing that it is a problem that one reaches that limit long before reaching the end of the game without going out of their way to break the game mechanics.  Even during normal play, inflicting more damage becomes a question of attacking faster and not harder.  Games like these rely on the phenomenon of numbers going up, and Final Fantasy XII has serious issues with handling this properly during the endgame.

It's still one of my favorite games on the PS2 and one of the best games I've ever played overall, but I'd really like to see Final Fantasy games do away with bizarre, arbitrary limits on damage figures.  It's damaging to the numbers going up mechanic that I am so in love with!
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 03, 2008, 10:41:40 pm
heh fuckin schooled that fool tomohawkjoe

oh and hey "lainge" (whatever) if you like medievil shit so much do you think ff9 is the bes ff of all time? cos if you do, then you opinion is void. that game was so gay is fucked it's uncle man. apart from trance kuja, but he was an exception he prolly belonged in ff7 i guess but then sephiroth just would've went "heh fuck u bitch" and struck him down like he struck down that cheap slut aeris who gave it away for free.

back to my point - don't like politics huh "lamge"? well guess what you probably live in a country with politics so that means your a fucken communiss.

lol calm down, no I didn't really get into FFIX. Hakerker kerker... Wow it's people like this who give games bad faces... etc rant and crap.

Quote
Destroyed alot of the- What the fuck does that have to do with anything. FFX was definitely more futuristic than most FF games combined. The main Character jumper 1000 years into the future.

Yes but most of the future tech was thrown away, except blitzball and by the al-bhed stuff (spelling?) I dunno... I guess you got me there, I'll admit that FFX was the most futuristic. But it was the most fun (not my favourite).

Quote
Actually, its a bow now. Apparently the International Version has change alot of things from the regular version.
Well that sucks, never heard about that one.

Quote
That is debatable
Really? What redeeming features did it have? this is a FFXII thread not Final Fantasy.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: jamie on January 03, 2008, 10:46:02 pm
what ill give you a bad face you dont watch your steps
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 03, 2008, 10:54:03 pm
what ill give you a bad face you dont watch your steps
Cool. But no I'm not going to argue with you because I'm not going to start a flame war.

Back to the game, yeah it's just kinda boring watching people fight over their country using law/words and things like that. Sure it makes sense but that's not why I play FF games.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 03, 2008, 11:01:24 pm
The main Character jumper 1000 years into the future.

What, did you pay attention to the story in FFX? Tidus didn't jump 1000 years in the future; there was no time travelling at all in the game.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 03, 2008, 11:17:38 pm
What, did you pay attention to the story in FFX? Tidus didn't jump 1000 years in the future; there was no time travelling at all in the game.
Can't remember how it works been a while.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 03, 2008, 11:25:26 pm
Can't remember how it works been a while.

Close.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: aboutasoandthis on January 04, 2008, 12:39:43 am
I loved FFXII. I didn't really like X, or any of the Nomura influenced Square-Enix games, so seeing something different made me feel good.

I thought the battle system was great. I don't really get to play MMOs, so having a nice and similar one-player game made me happy. The Gambit System felt great since you didn't have the other people to control the other characters. I also liked the License Board system a little better than the Sphere Grid b, and it's a shame that they have no plans to use it for XIII. The Liscence Board felt a little constrained and linear. If your character was a White Mage, and you wanted him have something else, you had to turn him into a White Mage, then a Breaker, then a Black Mage, etc. unless you had a key too break out of that loop. With the License Board you just had to follow a general area to become that type of class. I haven't played X in a while so I could be wrong.

The only problem I had with the battle system was that it wasn't wacky enough. The game could've used more effective commands other than attacking, and some more skills like Bubble and Oil. I don't think I've used a single negative status effect on an enemy other than Oil. Perpetual Moogle mentioned this once in another thread, but Final Fantasy X's status effects were extremely hard-hitting. I actually liked X's battle systems, but I would like to see those same effects put into a game like XII. It felt like all I was really doing was attacking and healing.

I enjoyed the story to XII. It felt like a nice change of pace from the other FF stories, especially X. Usually in those games the stories are over-the-top and anime influenced. I don't really watch anime, and I don't understand why ALL of the Final Fantasy games have to be anime styled. They got rid of the melodrama, the plot-twists, the end of the world/existence plot for a nice realistic one. The characters didn't have these ridiculously long backstories or these extreme amounts of character development either. They acted like people who could exist in our world. XII also had a set theme and a lot of allusions to the war in the Middle East today. XII would've made a really nice book, and that's a compliment you can't give to most JRPGs.

I do kinda agree with what angry black man was saying. The story was way to tame. Compared to a lot of other game stories it was nice, but compared to the other Matsuno games it was shit. They could've gone more in-depth with the effects of war on a country. It also would've been nice to have seen Rozzaria and to have them affect the storyline. There should've been more political backstabbings and horrible topics in the game like racism and famine like the other Matsuno games had. Those games actually felt medieval and gruesome. Tactics had its characaters stabbing each other left and right. Vagrant Story had a villian who ripped another man's skin off. I loved the Tactics Advance setting being blown up into a full world, but the game would've been much better off with a darker and deeper storyline.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on January 04, 2008, 03:41:01 am
What, did you pay attention to the story in FFX? Tidus didn't jump 1000 years in the future; there was no time travelling at all in the game.
Fuck, I knew I was forgetting something. I guess you got me there.

The characters didn't have these ridiculously long backstories or these extreme amounts of character development either. They acted like people who could exist in our world.
I love you
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Yeaster on January 04, 2008, 09:39:31 pm
FF12 is not a bad game, and I do like the fights. The game as a whole, however, is just...bland. It's pretty boring, actually, and I don't see myself remembering anything from this game after I beat it (if I can make it that long, that is).
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Aten on January 04, 2008, 10:11:29 pm
12 was also the first FF that I beat, watched the ending (dont remember jackshit about it) then turned off  when the credits started to roll. BORING!
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on January 04, 2008, 11:02:03 pm
12 was also the first FF that I beat, watched the ending (dont remember jackshit about it) then turned off  when the credits started to roll. BORING!
. I was disappointed by FF12's ending. Does Revenant Wings pick up on it?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Kitsune Inferno on January 05, 2008, 05:41:40 pm
Quote from: 'M.O.G.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: JohnnyCasil on January 05, 2008, 06:06:58 pm


You people need to start talking to NPCs more!
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Aten on January 05, 2008, 08:45:58 pm
Nicely summed up JC :D

Well, I last played it in 2004, so Im a bit rusty XD
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 05, 2008, 09:32:17 pm
Oh yeah, just to clarify (and as I said before), Dream Zanarkand is an actual physical location in the ocean in Spira, not in some alternate dimension or whatever like a lot of people think.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 05, 2008, 11:34:44 pm
Yeah, it's all starting to flood back to me. I think I can remember alot about it know, which is why FFX-2 pissed me off so much.
But more importantly I always wondered, was FFXII before FFTA or after. I never really payed attention to the dates or anything like that, but from what I could get from it was that it was after which kinda makes me wonder why Montblanc's Clan isn't called Nutsy. (Or was it...)
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Ohlichris on January 05, 2008, 11:59:02 pm
FFTA takes place in a fake Ivalice, one that doesn't exist.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 06, 2008, 12:08:30 am
Yeah, it's all starting to flood back to me. I think I can remember alot about it know, which is why FFX-2 pissed me off so much.
But more importantly I always wondered, was FFXII before FFTA or after. I never really payed attention to the dates or anything like that, but from what I could get from it was that it was after which kinda makes me wonder why Montblanc's Clan isn't called Nutsy. (Or was it...)

FFXII is before FFT, not FFTA.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on January 06, 2008, 02:01:54 am
Quote
When that happens in end, all Aeons are gone, including Tidus, Jecht and Zanarkand.

I completely forgot, but how does Final Fantasy X-2?

better yet, don't tell me.  I beat the entire game 100% on the first play and I don't ever want to relive that horrible experience again.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Aten on January 06, 2008, 02:08:57 am
Wow, I rather liked FFX-2. I have to play it again sometime soon.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: JohnnyCasil on January 06, 2008, 02:41:49 am
I never played through FFX-2, but I watched the ending, so this is what I know based on the ending
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 06, 2008, 02:43:43 am
Wow, I rather liked FFX-2. I have to play it again sometime soon.
It was terrible, the music was so bad... The only good part was the Garmet Grid, there was probably some other good parts but they totally killed blitzball.
FFTA takes place in a fake Ivalice, one that doesn't exist.
Then what about the references?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on January 06, 2008, 02:58:16 am
I never played through FFX-2, but I watched the ending, so this is what I know based on the ending


I'm slowly remembering... something about a Romeo and Juliet-esque romance between two characters that were supposedly Tidus and Yuna's ancestors.  There was this cave that was the sight of a huge massacre and all the dead spirits that didn't get sent formed the image of the Tidus clone.  Somehow he brought back the Fayth and by destroying him and getting 100% in the game Yuna communicates with them and wishes Tidus back into existence...

...or something.  It wasn't a terrible game and I really liked what they did with the battle system but the story was so horribly convoluted and MISSION BASED RPG games aren't my cup of tea.  I couldn't stand the all girl team; it was basically attack of the mary sues.

Quote
Then what about the references?

FFTA does take place in Ivalice... except everything after the opening scene takes place in a fairy tale version of it.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: JohnnyCasil on January 06, 2008, 03:12:43 am
I got to like chapter 3 of the game or something.  Then when I beat it I missed like 0.1% for that chapter because the strategy guide was horrible.  I have never played it since.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Yeaster on January 15, 2008, 11:01:25 pm
To be honest, X-2 just looked like a potential trainwreck. Aside from the graphics, I had little faith in everything else, and since I hated X, I was definitely not going to buy its sequel. Based on X-2's reaction, looks I didn't miss much.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: maladroithim on January 15, 2008, 11:06:41 pm
To be honest, X-2 just looked like a potential trainwreck. Aside from the graphics, I had little faith in everything else, and since I hated X, I was definitely not going to buy its sequel. Based on X-2's reaction, looks I didn't miss much.

I had a completely different opinion years ago, but in hindsight I think that FFX-2 is a brilliant and misunderstood work of art.  It really is a parody of a Final Fantasy game, but I don't think that a lot of the people that talk about it on the internet realized that at the time.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: jman00 on January 15, 2008, 11:07:53 pm
I liked X-2, the storyline was terrible, but I liked it because I found the battle system incredibly fun, with the fact you can change jobs during battle, that was a neat addition. It was like playing FF5, and that game is one of my top fav FF's. Next to 6. FF6 will always be my fav of all time!

There were plenty of sidequests in FFX-2 to keep you preoccupied from the terrible storyline... though it was stupid how you had to have 100% to get an endin' not many ppl cared about, ha ha!
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Yeaster on January 15, 2008, 11:10:00 pm
Quote
I had a completely different opinion years ago, but in hindsight I think that FFX-2 is a brilliant and misunderstood work of art.  It really is a parody of a Final Fantasy game, but I don't think that a lot of the people that talk about it on the internet realized that at the time.

But is it an intentional, parody, though?

If not...well, at least it could be one of those entertainingly bad games. Unlike 12, which isn't really "bad"...but boring as hell.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Aten on January 15, 2008, 11:39:45 pm
Once again... I liked FFX-2. It was fun and refreshing and quite a bit of change from FFX! The music was...i dunno... rock? metal? well, there was a lot of electric guitar action goin' on and I loved the entire soundtrack! The game was fast/fluid and the battle system rocked, so yeah! Who ever didnt play missed out and I guess they never heard the saying "Don't judge a book by it's cover".


FF12 on the other hand, had BORING music (put me to sleep) and amazingly BORING battles. It's like you did nothing, aside from set the gambits. I dont know WHAT they were thinking when they did that. Even in a MMO, you at least have to do stuff yourself.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 16, 2008, 12:43:23 am
FF12 on the other hand, had BORING music (put me to sleep) and amazingly BORING battles. It's like you did nothing, aside from set the gambits. I dont know WHAT they were thinking when they did that. Even in a MMO, you at least have to do stuff yourself.

Yes, they should leave FF Games with FF styled battles, you walk around swoosh big noise crappy (sometimes cool) effect then a battle.
With Gambits it was too annoying, I left gambit for my teammates but the only gambit the person I was using had on was attack closest enemy. Otherwise they would waste mp on random shit that wasn't needed at the time...
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on January 16, 2008, 03:13:27 am
Quote
I had a completely different opinion years ago, but in hindsight I think that FFX-2 is a brilliant and misunderstood work of art.  It really is a parody of a Final Fantasy game, but I don't think that a lot of the people that talk about it on the internet realized that at the time.

I would have enjoyed it if I hadn't forced myself to get the perfect ending on a single playthrough for the promise of 10 bux (which I still never got).

That said, I still believe FFVII is the parody.  Every time I play it, I can't help but think to myself "Cloud is wearing a purple body suit and is taking a bath with GAY MEN.  Why the fuck did I think this was awesome 10 years ago???"
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Aten on January 16, 2008, 03:29:50 am
"Cloud is wearing a purple body suit"

You know, FF7, by that time (1997) was considered be in the future, right? well, I always attributed that to the "this is what the future will be like for sure!" thing that was goin' on back then. I mean, remember this, at least he wasn't wearing A ONE PIECE SILVER ALUMINUM SUIT, that *everyone* in "future" movies wear.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Marcus on January 16, 2008, 11:34:57 am
yeah but notice how quickly square retconned the purple body suits?  The standard soldier suit is blue... yet Cloud is the only one that wears purple.  Also, in Crisis Core he wears the standard blue one even though in the FF7 flashbacks Cloud still wore purple.  The purple he wore was a pretty terrible shade of purple as well... like, MAUVE purple.

anyways you cannot deny that he took a bath with a bunch of boxers.  let's also not forget the whole CROSS DRESSING SCENE and doing squats with muscular men to win a wig and...

...fuck, how the fuck did i take that game seriously back then?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: EvilDemonCreature on January 16, 2008, 04:27:13 pm
yeah but notice how quickly square retconned the purple body suits?  The standard soldier suit is blue... yet Cloud is the only one that wears purple.  Also, in Crisis Core he wears the standard blue one even though in the FF7 flashbacks Cloud still wore purple.  The purple he wore was a pretty terrible shade of purple as well... like, MAUVE purple.

anyways you cannot deny that he took a bath with a bunch of boxers.  let's also not forget the whole CROSS DRESSING SCENE and doing squats with muscular men to win a wig and...

...fuck, how the fuck did i take that game seriously back then?

The best thing about this post is how there are people that still take this game seriously.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: jman00 on January 16, 2008, 04:38:29 pm
The best thing about this post is how there are people that still take this game seriously.

All the more reason to laugh at those fan boys/girls about the game, the game in all was overhyped. Cool in the day, but when you look back, it was bleh. And now the game is now motivating terrorism, cross dressing, killing women, riding motorcycles, and I'm sure there's more.  :fogetshrug:
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Yeaster on January 16, 2008, 05:03:01 pm
Yeah, FF7 was great back in the day, but it's aged pretty badly. Graphics aside, everything else seems dated, like one really long anime movie. I think it's one of the most important games ever, but certainly not the best. Even games that came out that following year were a lot better.

About FF12...the gambits don't bother me, I mean you can always just turn them off (I have mine on, but I still control my characters most of the time). In my opinion, the battles are the only thing that game has going for it (it's just that some of those bosses are insanely cheap >.<).
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: headphonics on January 16, 2008, 08:52:52 pm
I had a completely different opinion years ago, but in hindsight I think that FFX-2 is a brilliant and misunderstood work of art.  It really is a parody of a Final Fantasy game, but I don't think that a lot of the people that talk about it on the internet realized that at the time.
given the other games they develop these days, i very very very much doubt that anyone at square-enix still has enough vision to do something like this, or to even consider it.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Shadowtext on January 16, 2008, 09:26:22 pm
But is it an intentional, parody, though?

If not...well, at least it could be one of those entertainingly bad games. Unlike 12, which isn't really "bad"...but boring as hell.
What does intent matter? It's all about how the audience interprets it. Ray Bradbury thinks that Farenheit 451 wasn't about censorship.

FFX-2 was pretty great. The battles were handled well and I liked the character customization fifty times more than the Sphere Grid. Only real problem I had with it was that the new designs on Rikku made her look too skanky. Yuna's was a little skanky, too, but I think that if Rikku had looked a little classier it wouldn't have been as big a deal.

But then, I'm not one of these people who has a problem going along with silly, campy performances.

I loved FF12, too. The complaints about the gambit system don't make much sense to me because I never felt like I was just sitting and watching--I was always watching the characters and changing their commands when needed (most times when they needed to use magic, for example, other than healing). It was basically the same as Neverwinter Nights or something--why should I have to keep selecting "attack" like in basically ever Final Fantasy that came before 12? Assuming I'm going to attack and letting me choose other options when I need to makes more sense anyway.

As for the story....who cares? Playing a game for the story is like eating chocolate for the health benefits.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: DS on January 16, 2008, 09:37:14 pm
Quote
As for the story....who cares? Playing a game for the story is like eating chocolate for the health benefits.
dotdotdot (sorry even i didn't think you'd go and say something this stupid)

I care about stories in RPG's. And your comparison is horrible. Let me put it in a way so that you will understand. Would you watch anime just for animation (anime > animation, game > gameplay get it) or for story/setting/characters as well?

Yeah, both. It's not a great comparison but there shouldn't even be any need for comparisons. It's completely beyond my understanding how anyone can say something as dumb as you just did. Why it's so difficult to comperehend PEOPLE CARE ABOUT STORIES. Jesus christ, just because it's a game doesn't mean stories don't matter.

Also, I agree about FFX-2 with panda. I find it really hard to believe it is misunderstood work of art or parody.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Shadowtext on January 16, 2008, 10:28:00 pm
dotdotdot (sorry even i didn't think you'd go and say something this stupid)

I care about stories in RPG's. And your comparison is horrible. Let me put it in a way so that you will understand. Would you watch anime just for animation (anime > animation, game > gameplay get it) or for story/setting/characters as well?

Yeah, both. It's not a great comparison but there shouldn't even be any need for comparisons. It's completely beyond my understanding how anyone can say something as dumb as you just did. Why it's so difficult to comperehend PEOPLE CARE ABOUT STORIES. Jesus christ, just because it's a game doesn't mean stories don't matter.

Also, I agree about FFX-2 with panda. I find it really hard to believe it is misunderstood work of art or parody.
Well sure, but there are also viable health benefits to eating chocolate. I just don't know anyone with any sense who eats it as a health food. Maybe there are a few hippies who eat it without any sweeteners added, like as a coffee added or something....and likewise maybe there's a game out there made by some guy in a beret and distributed secretly on floppy disk that actually has a good story.

And for the record, it's not that I find it hard to comprehend that people care about stories. It's just that I've never really seen a person who makes that claim in regards to video games that doesn't make it clear pretty quickly that it's not so much that they're connoisseurs of the narrative form as it is that they've convinced themselves that what they're doing isn't the same as what the people playing Halo as a drinking game are doing. I believed in it at one time, just not anymore. Maybe it's just me being jaded from hanging around GamingW too long, though, and reacting to the attitudes I see here.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: maladroithim on January 16, 2008, 10:35:25 pm
And for the record, it's not that I find it hard to comprehend that people care about stories. It's just that I've never really seen a person who makes that claim in regards to video games that doesn't make it clear pretty quickly that it's not so much that they're connoisseurs of the narrative form as it is that they've convinced themselves that what they're doing isn't the same as what the people playing Halo as a drinking game are doing. I believed in it at one time, just not anymore. Maybe it's just me being jaded from hanging around GamingW too long, though, and reacting to the attitudes I see here.

I'd like to add that I feel this way, too.  Occassionally I'll come across a game that has a good story (DQ8) or readable dialogue (KOTOR II) or is a clever parody (FFX-2), but by and large I think that video game writing is largely disposable, and when I form ideas about video games, I try not to hold bad their typically bad writing against them.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 16, 2008, 11:10:27 pm
I'd like to add that I feel this way, too.  Occassionally I'll come across a game that has a good story (DQ8) or readable dialogue (KOTOR II) or is a clever parody (FFX-2), but by and large I think that video game writing is largely disposable, and when I form ideas about video games, I try not to hold bad their typically bad writing against them.

I tend to disagree with this relatively new, 'edgy' way of thinking that all or most RPG's have horrible writing or bad stories. When I play an RPG, I don't expect Shakespearian dialogue or writing on par with Oskar Wilde, I just expect a story good enough to entertain me. If an RPG has that, then as far as I'm concerned, it's good writing and it's what I've come to expect.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Shadowtext on January 16, 2008, 11:35:11 pm
I tend to disagree with this relatively new, 'edgy' way of thinking that all or most RPG's have horrible writing or bad stories. When I play an RPG, I don't expect Shakespearian dialogue or writing on par with Oskar Wilde, I just expect a story good enough to entertain me. If an RPG has that, then as far as I'm concerned, it's good writing and it's what I've come to expect.
Which is fair enough, until people start bitching about how bad one Final Fantasy's story is, despite the fact that all of the others were pretty much moderate-quality pulp fiction. By which I mean like....slightly better than The Inheritance Cycle (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inheritance_Trilogy).*

That's when it stops being about enjoying the game and starts being about which game one is supposed to like to remain respectable.

(* - Keep in mind, this isn't much of a compliment.)
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 16, 2008, 11:58:27 pm
Which is fair enough, until people start bitching about how bad one Final Fantasy's story is, despite the fact that all of the others were pretty much moderate-quality pulp fiction.
(* - Keep in mind, this isn't much of a compliment.)

I still disagree, because even if that's the case about all of the Final Fantasy stories, that still doesn't mean that one can't complain one Final Fantasy story is bad relative to the others. One should logically be allowed to have the opinion that say, Final Fantasy 10's story was better than Final Fantasy 12 without someone using the argument that all RPG plotlines are bad anyway and it doesn't really matter.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Shadowtext on January 17, 2008, 12:28:28 am
I think the only way you can really justify partaking in nothing but crap and then whining about it when one of the crappy titles is slightly worse than the others is if you're a humorist. So if you're Dave Barry, cool. Rant all you want about how stupid MacArthur Park was because you manage to make me laugh. If you're Random Internet Goblin #444 whining that the emo protagonist in the newest Final Fantasy didn't angst enough, and that this is the main reason you didn't like the game....not so much.

I mean feel free to state your opinions about it. But if you go in to the thing expecting Fun + Crap and then get Fun + Crap++....how is that really much of a difference?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 17, 2008, 12:36:14 am
See, I guess that's you and I disagree fundamentally. I don't think that RPG plotlines are crap, and even the Final Fantasy titles, which I don't like as well as other RPG's, are more deserving in their plot and characters than crap. It may be your opinion and that's fine, but in all of the RPG's that I've enjoyed for 10 years, I think it's unfair in my opinion.

Like I said before, I disagree with the mindset that some people think; that all RPG plotlines are bad.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Shadowtext on January 17, 2008, 12:45:12 am
You said yourself, though, that you don't expect much from them. You're not expecting Shakespeare or Oscar Wilde from these things. Which says to me that even if you're not ready to call them "crap," you're admitting that they're only "good" because you're giving them special concession because of the medium. You would not be as forgiving to something if it weren't in a video game. If you saw writing like that in a book, you might not decide to finish it.

Again, this is fine. But it makes it hard for me to take complaints about the story seriously if even the people who like them admit that they're only calling the stories good because they're comparing them to Doom instead of The Grapes of Wrath.

Look, I'm exagerrating my opinion a bit. I don't actually consider most of these stories crap. I consider them mediocre. But if I'm going to judge something for its story....if that's going to be the primary factor in whether or not I like something....I'm going to judge it on the same level as anything else that I look at primarily for the story.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Feldschlacht IV on January 17, 2008, 12:57:42 am
You said yourself, though, that you don't expect much from them. You're not expecting Shakespeare or Oscar Wilde from these things.

That's not true. I never said I don't expect much. I said I don't expect them to be Shakespeare or Oscar Wilde, which to me are the pinnacle of literature. But that still doesn't mean they still can't be great. And no, I can't say I excuse the stories because they're video games, because I also read supplemental books, mangas, side stories, and short novels of the RPG's I enjoy; because I consider them to have good, solid stories that I can enjoy as much as any book or movie.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Ryan on January 17, 2008, 03:19:50 am
man ffx-2 is not a fucking parody of anything. this is square we're talking about.
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Shadowtext on January 17, 2008, 03:40:19 am
man ffx-2 is not a fucking parody of anything. this is square we're talking about.
So? (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_the_author)
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Ryan on January 17, 2008, 03:49:07 am
oh please. there is no evidence or even a hint that this is a parody. if square had a history of being witty this might be a bit more plausible
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Shadowtext on January 17, 2008, 03:58:01 am
How does the history of the author even figure into the argument if my point is that the author and their intentions don't matter?
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: tomohawkjoe on January 17, 2008, 04:23:19 am
I guess I'm the only one who enjoyed the music... :fogetsad:
In all seriousness though
Quote
Yes, they should leave FF Games with FF styled battles, you walk around swoosh big noise crappy (sometimes cool) effect then a battle.
With Gambits it was too annoying, I left gambit for my teammates but the only gambit the person I was using had on was attack closest enemy. Otherwise they would waste mp on random shit that wasn't needed at the time...
Yes, because change should never happen...ever...its bad...its really bad...boo change!
If your having problems with gambits, then maybe your using them wrong. I personally see gambits as a godsend, It really helps me narrow down the tedious things that take way to much time to do automatically. Being able to rebuff without having to go in and have tell every character to rebuff was a pain. MP is never wasted if you set your gambits properly
Title: Final Fantasy XII - greatness.
Post by: Lainge on January 17, 2008, 09:49:02 am
I guess I'm the only one who enjoyed the music... :fogetsad:
In all seriousness though

quote

Yes, because change should never happen...ever...its bad...its really bad...boo change!
If your having problems with gambits, then maybe your using them wrong. I personally see gambits as a godsend, It really helps me narrow down the tedious things that take way to much time to do automatically. Being able to rebuff without having to go in and have tell every character to rebuff was a pain. MP is never wasted if you set your gambits properly
I know and usually I did set them up right, most of the stuff I used didn't need mp anyway. But that didn't stop them from wasting it. :fogetgasp: 'Saying a good thing about FF12 Shock!' I did like Shades of Black... and Charge...

Anyway, I'm insanely good at finding items on any game so I was walking around with all the ethers, elixirs and pretty much money I would ever need.

About me bolding the text, it's good to see that you agree with me.  :fogetsmile: