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General Category => Entertainment and Media => Topic started by: dark_crystalis on January 09, 2008, 12:04:00 am

Title: Vinyls
Post by: dark_crystalis on January 09, 2008, 12:04:00 am
A lot of older people still cling to their old LPs saying it sounds better and such. Many ardent music fans are the same, hell some people believe LPs should be the only format avaiable. Many bands in certain genres still release their new albums on LP format today. I was wondering if any of you guys on the forums still had LPs, if you like them, why and such.

I was always interested in LPs but I only started listening to some during the summer. I found my mom's old box and I listened to some good old Neil Young, Cat Stevens, America and such. I was also interested in getting myself some metal LPs but my turn table was only a mono so it sounded pretty crappy. Anyways, I've recently got a stereo turn table and I must say it's great. Certain albums sound very different in CD and LP format. A good example (to me anyways) is Deathspell Omega's Si Monumentum Requires, Circumspice.

Go!
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Bravo on January 09, 2008, 12:58:50 am
My dad used to have like 400 LP's but he trashed them all when we moved. I asked him about it years later and he said, "yeah i kind of regret that."
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 09, 2008, 01:19:07 am
Those people who say that LPs sound better are either deaf (which is not unexpected due to their age) or are just nostalgic because LPs are just inferior and yield a lower sound quality even with the bestest and most expensive equipment

But they have an advantage: they can be made out of chocolate. Can you do that with CDs or mp3? Haha I didn't think so!!!
Title: Vinyls
Post by: dark_crystalis on January 09, 2008, 02:24:26 am
Those people who say that LPs sound better are either deaf (which is not unexpected due to their age) or are just nostalgic because LPs are just inferior and yield a lower sound quality even with the bestest and most expensive equipment

But they have an advantage: they can be made out of chocolate. Can you do that with CDs or mp3? Haha I didn't think so!!!
I wouldn't say necessarily inferior though, it just sounds different. For certain songs it's way better on CD but others actually sound better on LP (imo).

Anyways here are my LPs
Artist - Album
Venom - Black Metal
ISIS - Red Sea (the pink version)
ISIS - In The Abcense of Truth
Deathspell Omega - Si Monumentum Requires, Circumspice
Neil Young - Harvest
Cat Stevens - Greatest Hits
Cat Stevens - Numbers
(and 4 other Cat Stevens LPs... my mom was a big fan)
Simon & Garfunkle - Wednesday Morning, 3 AM
America - Self-titled

I'm also going to order some Swallow The Sun, Anathema, My Dying Bride and Wolves In The Throne Room. Maybe some other Deathspell Omega and Pearl Jam LPs if I can find them for cheap.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: eer on January 09, 2008, 10:14:48 am
My band is releasing a 7" in february.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Shepperd on January 09, 2008, 06:58:07 pm
Cheetos, you're wrong. Vinyls have a vintage sound, which adds a whole level of subtleness that is hard to describe. It is a pretty cool sound but it works better or worse depending on the music style.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 09, 2008, 07:03:19 pm
I know I like the vintage factor but the sound quality is lower, this is an undeniable fact
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 09, 2008, 07:07:01 pm
oh man we better not have an opinion on the quality of vinyl it is an UNDENIABLE FACT

My mom's partner has a load of old 70s and 80s rock vinyls, they're great to put on when the house is empty and I need loud music. ^_^
Title: Vinyls
Post by: cowardknower on January 11, 2008, 08:04:06 pm
i havent researched but it makes sense that inri is prob right.
vinyls have A different FEEL perhaps, but THE actual sound quality (nonobjective hello) IS probably lower.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Hempknight on January 11, 2008, 09:24:50 pm
I like them because it lets me hear how the music was heard when it was new, and how the artists originally recorded it to sound like. I don't care if the quality is lower or anything, I don't need to hear the slightest sound of joefuckface's wedding ring on the e string of his guitar.

Not so much into modern vinyl, it's overpriced and people don't do the cool cover art they used to have.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Kaworu on January 11, 2008, 09:30:05 pm
well technically Vinyls are inferior (as if it matters interms of how the music sounds), though that arguement is kinda moot due to the way modern music is mixed. They blurr instruments and things together to create a louder sound on most albums (so all the subtle intricacies in the songs are lost), in many reissues, you'll find that the vinyl actually has much clearer sound than the CD (and most definately the Mp3, which has a distinct flat sound even to the CD recordings)
This is especially noticable with Heavy Metal (also The beatles it is very noticable) where rereleases tend to get remastered, I'm finding the remastered versions are more of a continous sound where even the quieter parts are put up to 11 and lose the emotional effect. Though admitedly this is due to modern mixing practices and not due to the potential of the format. I mean modern vinyl are prettymuch the same as CD interms of sound, because of the mixing practices.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on January 11, 2008, 09:37:09 pm
Kaworu hit it on the head; most shit these days is overmixed on CD but vinyl tends to preserve the sound better but yeah just givin kaworu rep.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Ragnar on January 11, 2008, 09:42:14 pm
One time I ordered a Chemical Brothers CD and a vinyl came instead

I wonder if stuff like that actually sounds better or not

Or Analord, I'd like to hear that as vinyl someday

And since vinyl /is/ the waveform of the sound on a record, doesn't that mean that the sound quality could be ∞ hz as opposed to 44100?? Not to mention the bit depth would probably be infinite, as in the volume can increase or decrease by any infintessimal amount
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 11, 2008, 09:50:26 pm
Vinyl does not preserve the sound better. It has a inferior dynamic range, any dust on vinyl discs creates unwanted noises, the mastering proccess is much more complicated, etc. They're inferior. It's just that today sound engineers like to compress everything to make CDs as loud as they can and this is a marketing strategy, not a characteristic of CDs
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Hempknight on January 11, 2008, 09:53:25 pm
Vinyl does not preserve the sound better. It has a inferior dynamic range, any dust on vinyl discs creates unwanted noises, the mastering proccess is much more complicated, etc. They're inferior. It's just that today sound engineers like to compress everything to make CDs as loud as they can and this is a marketing strategy, not a characteristic of CDs

Well given that CD's prompted this shift from quality engineering to loud engineering, CD's are in fact, to blame... indirectly of course.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bonzi_buddy on January 11, 2008, 10:05:17 pm
Kaworu hit it on the head; most shit these days is overmixed on CD but vinyl tends to preserve the sound better but yeah just givin kaworu rep.
Well, yes. Loudness is a contagious disease, nowdays. :fogetshrug:

Interesting topic, i have heard similiar talks before. Like they said that Led Zeppelin's music sounds better on vinyl than on remaster, ie. Kashmir is said to have quite an atmosphere on vinyl. Since i have no vinyls myself i can't really say whether this is true.

Oh and doesn't CD have an stereo- advantage over vinyl (mono)? You can try to do tricks with vinyl making it sound like stereo but nothing beats two channels, amiright?
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Vellfire on January 11, 2008, 10:09:49 pm
I read an article on the kind of stuff Kaworu was talking about, they make EVERYTHING louder and you lose lots of details you had in the original.  Vinyls don't have that problem.  As to which is better, it depends on the album and how good the record still is (an old busted up LP won't play so well!)

The only LPs I own are a really nice version of the Hair soundtrack and the Dragostea Din Tei single I bought just because "hahaha why is this for sale even".  Aquarius is definitely one of those that sounds a lot better on vinyl, the sound is just a lot warmer and sounded so, so great.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: mar77a on January 12, 2008, 02:24:27 am
Hmm, I was wondering if i was the only one that found some vinyls better than the actual CD. I inherited from my father most of my musical tastes, as well as his complete vinyl collection. I don't usually play them, but when I do, I do it because I can't get the actual vinyl in CD format and because it just sounds really good. I play stuff like Dark Side of the Moon, Yes songs & Santan's III and they all sound really great. I just wished he hadn't trashed most of them a few years ago :(
Title: Vinyls
Post by: ATARI on January 12, 2008, 05:21:32 am
My dad has a really nice record player and stereo in our basement that sounds really good.  I've heard him listening to records growing up, and there is just a certain warm quality that comes with listening to records that sounds really good.  As much as I like it though, I don't  really have the time to sit down to a record much, and it seems like a lot of effort to go through when I could just play it on my computer or something like that.  I don't own any records, but it would be pretty neat to listen to some. 

The other problem that I feel though, is that CDs are already expensive enough (and I have really died down on actually purchasing music anymore, it's too expensive), and records cost a lot more than those.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Vellfire on January 12, 2008, 01:32:19 pm
My dad has a really nice record player and stereo in our basement that sounds really good.  I've heard him listening to records growing up, and there is just a certain warm quality that comes with listening to records that sounds really good.  As much as I like it though, I don't  really have the time to sit down to a record much, and it seems like a lot of effort to go through when I could just play it on my computer or something like that.  I don't own any records, but it would be pretty neat to listen to some. 

The other problem that I feel though, is that CDs are already expensive enough (and I have really died down on actually purchasing music anymore, it's too expensive), and records cost a lot more than those.

This is a lot like me, my dad has a nice stereo in the basement and it just sounds great.  As far as the price, it depends on what kind of records you want--you can find TONS of records really really cheap at flea markets and places like that.  My copy of the Hair soundtrack is a really nice release and near-new, and it was only 50 cents.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: cowardknower on January 13, 2008, 11:58:58 pm
so what you guys are saying is that you like the old pre-mxiingforvolume style of mixing better, not that vinyls have some mystic mojo?
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Ragnar on January 15, 2008, 03:38:58 pm
No vinyls clearly have magical powers and the "warmness" is real too it actually sends heat waves into your body like those commercials on TV
Title: Vinyls
Post by: post on January 15, 2008, 10:05:42 pm
Ive got

In Rainbows - Radiohead
In an Aeroplane - Neutral Milk Hotel
Some postal service ep that I bought for my girlfriend thats at my house

and a bunch of artists from Ghostly / Spectral SOund (http://www.ghostly.com) that I dontfeel like name dropping

then my dads got all the old rockier shit i like (stones, beatles, doors...etc)
and my moms got the softer old shit i like (carpenters)

so its pretty good
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bort on January 16, 2008, 06:47:17 pm
this is my vinyl collection. one i bought, one my brother bought for me because the cover is pretty visibly amazing
(https://legacy.gamingw.net/etc/farm3.static.flickr.com/2118/2170561728_b4c279be93_o.jpeg)
Title: Vinyls
Post by: im_so_tired on January 16, 2008, 10:35:39 pm
as i see it, the reason a lot of people prefer vinyl is because it was recorded on raw tape and that tape has a richness in the sound quality that most new digital recording can not come close to. a lot of bands still record on tape but it's a different kind of tape that compresses the sound a certain degree, i think it's half-inch. it also depends greatly on the quality of the print of vinyl and the quality of your record player (clean, new needle is important). my friend goes to school for music recording and he's a genius about all this stuff so i'm just trying to remember what he's always talking about.

edit: oh yeah, i have some records. t-rex/marc bolan, beatles, harry belefonte, hawaiin guitars (this one kicks ass). mainly i buy them at the secon-hand store cause they're only a dollar and a lot it is weird ass shit that was never brought to cd or digital media.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 16, 2008, 11:32:45 pm
Vinyls are better because they're worse
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Cheshire Cat on January 16, 2008, 11:41:12 pm
God, you've got no soul at all.

I own 1 vinyl, entitled 'The 12 Commandments Of Dance'. Obviously, it's excellent.
When i bought this, my friend also bought a record: 'faces' by Run DMC, with a B side featuring Chuck D and Public Enemy. It's absolutely amazing.

I intend to buy more once i actually own a record player.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: cowardknower on January 17, 2008, 02:03:48 am
inri i never thought i would agree with you on anything ever.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: dark_crystalis on January 17, 2008, 10:08:32 pm
this is my vinyl collection. one i bought, one my brother bought for me because the cover is pretty visibly amazing
(https://legacy.gamingw.net/etc/farm3.static.flickr.com/2118/2170561728_b4c279be93_o.jpeg)
Pilgrimage is so awesome... I'd like to have that in LP format hehe. But I'm currently checking for Swallow The Sun, My Dying Bride, Anathema and Wolves In The Throne Room.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Ragnar on January 20, 2008, 12:12:42 am
8 tracks own all
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Lyndon on January 24, 2008, 09:16:52 pm
Technically if you get a vinyl in mint condition, it will have a better sound quality than a CD. A CD takes sample of sounds and clumps them next to each other. The higher the sample rate, the smaller the samples will be, therefore sounding closer to the actual recording.

Vinyls don't work in the same way. All the sound is burnt to the Vinyl in it's true form, therefore it is the true form of music.

It's anal and you probably won't be able to tell the difference nowadays, but Digital will always be a representation of the 'real' thing.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: cowardknower on January 24, 2008, 10:00:46 pm
hmm that makes sense actually.  high five.  i now agree with lyndon (provided his information is correct!)  i did not even think about it in that light.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 24, 2008, 10:42:37 pm
I believe Lyndon is absolutely correct (IIRC), because the vast majority of studios record using analogue equipment.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 25, 2008, 04:55:12 pm
Technically if you get a vinyl in mint condition, it will have a better sound quality than a CD. A CD takes sample of sounds and clumps them next to each other. The higher the sample rate, the smaller the samples will be, therefore sounding closer to the actual recording.

If that was true then you would be able to tell the difference between a recording with a 44khz sample rate and a 96Khz one, but you can't

Quote
Vinyls don't work in the same way. All the sound is burnt to the Vinyl in it's true form, therefore it is the true form of music.

It's anal and you probably won't be able to tell the difference nowadays, but Digital will always be a representation of the 'real' thing.

No it's not, the molecules of the PVC used to make vinyl discs are so big vinyls actually have a lower sound resolution than CDs
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Lyndon on January 25, 2008, 06:17:04 pm
If that was true then you would be able to tell the difference between a recording with a 44khz sample rate and a 96Khz one, but you can't

Well if you listen something with a very low sample rate (8khz) then you will hear a difference. But to a trained ear you should be able to hear the difference in sound quality from a CD to one from a DVD in a movie or something.

Quote
No it's not, the molecules of the PVC used to make vinyl discs are so big vinyls actually have a lower sound resolution than CDs

Well CD's burn to digital (1s and 0s) whereas on a record it burns the sound wave to the vinyl so when the needle runs of the bumps it has made, the vibrations make the sound. Digital recreates this by playing little recording samples of this bunched all together and converted to digital.

Think of it as, vinyl is a painting where the paint has been brushed on naturally. A CD is more like someone has printed that painting off using a printer. All the colours are represented by little dots of colour bunched close together (much like samples of sound in a digital recording)
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 25, 2008, 06:55:20 pm
Well if you listen something with a very low sample rate (8khz) then you will hear a difference. But to a trained ear you should be able to hear the difference in sound quality from a CD to one from a DVD in a movie or something.

It's because the highest frequency a 8khz can capture is 4 khz, so it doesn't record anything above that, I don't know the science and theory behind that, but the sampling rate must be the highest frequency you expect to record multiplied by two, and since the highest frequency most humans can hear is around 22 khz, 44 khz is usually enough.

With 96 khz the highest frequency you can capture is 48 khz but thats way beyond what someone can hear, so maybe a cat or a mutant could tell a difference between 44 and 96 khz but most people can't

Quote
Well CD's burn to digital (1s and 0s) whereas on a record it burns the sound wave to the vinyl so when the needle runs of the bumps it has made, the vibrations make the sound. Digital recreates this by playing little recording samples of this bunched all together and converted to digital.

Think of it as, vinyl is a painting where the paint has been brushed on naturally. A CD is more like someone has printed that painting off using a printer. All the colours are represented by little dots of colour bunched close together (much like samples of sound in a digital recording)

 :fogetnah:
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Lyndon on January 25, 2008, 07:22:17 pm
It's because the highest frequency a 8khz can capture is 4 khz, so it doesn't record anything above that, I don't know the science and theory behind that, but the sampling rate must be the highest frequency you expect to record multiplied by two, and since the highest frequency most humans can hear is around 22 khz, 44 khz is usually enough.

With 96 khz the highest frequency you can capture is 48 khz but thats way beyond what someone can hear, so maybe a cat or a mutant could tell a difference between 44 and 96 khz but most people can't


I think you're getting mixed up. Sample rate is the number of samples in a second. It's measured in frequency. The higher the frequency, the more samples are played a second.

What you say about humans not hearing over 22 khz is correct. But this is only the case when we are talking about pitch.

Quote from: wiki
Frequency is a measure of the number of occurrences of a repeating event per unit time

the repeating event you are refering to is the sine wave oscillating up and down to quickly for us to hear it, which is known as pitch.

When measure sample rates, it's not about the sine wave getting closer and closer together to generate a high pitch, but the amount of digital samples per second, that give the representation of sound...

I'm going back to the painting....

A higher sample rate would mean that the dots of colour from a printer are closer together forming a more solid colour on the page. If the lower the sample rate, the more infrequent the dots would print out, giving a poorer resolution.

Kind of like the difference between a monitor with a high resolution (compared to a DVD or something with a high number of samples per second) to a monitor with a low resolution (compared to something with a low sample rate like a telephone or something)
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 25, 2008, 08:06:47 pm
Lyndon I'm not going to try to convince you that LPs are worse, if you do your own research you'll find out they actually are and how the sampling rate works
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Lyndon on January 25, 2008, 08:22:28 pm
Well the debate has rather changed on how a digital CD works. I don't think you fully understand the concept of what frequency is and that it is more than just the frequency of pitch that we hear.

hertz = 1 cycle per second

Sine wave

Concert pitch A is 440hz

440 cycles of that sine wave a second to generate this pitch.

Once we get to over 20khz the pitch is so high we can't hear it.

on a CD

44.1 khz = 44100 cycles per second

44100 samples per second

44100 small snippets of sound a second make up what you hear a second.

The higher the herts, does not affect the pitch as it is not the sine wave that is oscillating 44100 cycles per second, but a small sample of digital data.

The more samples a second, the more true the 'digital representation' of the sound is to it's true form, which is burnt straight onto the survace of a vinyl.

I'm not sure where you are failing to see the problem here. I actually thought it was common knowledge that Vinyls, in mint condition have a truer sound. Why do you think they still manafacture a limited supply of vinyls if the quality was inferior to digital? Do they still manafacture cassettes of music? They are certainly inferior.

Frequency measured in hertz is not just limited to pitch. It's basically anything that frequently occors repeatedly over time.  You could measure the refresh rate of your Television in hertz (NTSC = 60hz Pal =50hz). So the screen would refresh either 60 or 50 times per second depending on which region you live in.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on January 26, 2008, 02:34:02 am
lyndon inri cheetos is kind of dumb as shit don't bother.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 27, 2008, 08:25:11 pm
I might be stupid on several other subjects but I know how a CD or a vinyl disc works without using painting analogies
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 04:32:26 pm
I might be stupid on several other subjects but I know how a CD or a vinyl disc works without using painting analogies
according to this thread apparently not!
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 04:40:58 pm
Hahaha very funny. But if you read on how CDs and vinyls and sampling rates (for audio) work you'll find out I'm right.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 04:49:44 pm
Hahaha very funny. But if you read on how CDs and vinyls and sampling rates (for audio) work you'll find out I'm right.
yeah thanks for telling the music technology student to go read up.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 04:50:52 pm
Then if you know so much then please explain how they work then so that everyone knows them instead of LOL IM MUSIC TECHNOLOGY STUDENT IM BETTA THAN YOU
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 04:51:43 pm
Then if you know so much then please explain how they work then so that everyone knows them instead of LOL IM MUSIC TECHNOLOGY STUDENT IM BETTA THAN YOU
There's nothing I can say that Lyndon hasn't already said (quite brilliantly, I might add), you should start listening to him!

Also I much prefer "LOL IM MUSIC TECHNOLOGY STUDENT IM BETTA THAN YOU" to "LOL IM RIGHT IM BETTA THAN YOU"
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 04:56:06 pm
Yes Rockman but just choose what facts you're denying:

- CDs have a better dynamic range than LPs
- You can't tell the difference between 96khz and 44khz sampling rates
- CDs have a higher fidelity than LPs and therefore they have a better sound quality
- The fact of thinking LPs are better is subjective
- CDs are better period
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 05:10:22 pm
- CDs have a better dynamic range than LPs - Because vinyl records are an analog format, they do not have an audio bit depth by their nature.
- You can't tell the difference between 96khz and 44khz sampling rates - No, you can't tell the difference.
- CDs have a higher fidelity than LPs and therefore they have a better sound quality - Not necessarily. It depends on the original recording. A poor recording will remain a poor recording, regardless of fidelity. Also it's ironic that you use an outdated term when trying to argue that vinyl records are outdated!
- The fact of thinking LPs are better is subjective - What you are trying to say is that one's opinion of both vinyl records and CDs is subjective. That's what an opinion is. It doesn't change the facts.
- CDs are better period - Wow, what a fantastic argument.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on January 29, 2008, 05:16:14 pm
inri cheetos is kind of dumb as shit don't bother.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 05:18:15 pm
LPs would only be "better just because they're analog" in an ideal world, in theory only, in the real world they're not.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 05:20:37 pm
LPs would only be "better just because they're analog" in an ideal world, in theory only, in the real world they're not.
Who said that? I see not those words!
I can't help it steel I am blown away by his RAW ARGUMENT POWER
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 05:26:55 pm
I don't remember saying anything about "bit depth" either


Dynamic range of vinyl: 65 db
Dynamic range of CD: 90 db

CD wins.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 05:37:31 pm
I don't remember saying anything about "bit depth" either
Audio bit depth is the maximum dynamic range of digital audio (as is on a CD), but is just a projected measurement (as is about to be explained), while with analog audio an actual measurement can be used. This is because with modern recording techniques, unused with vinyl records, the dynamic range is limited with audio level compressors, allowing for louder volume but diminishing the dynamic range and making a recording less exciting and somewhat stunted (as was said earlier). Therefore CDs actually have less of a dynamic range than vinyl records. So...
Quote
LPs would only be "better just because they're analog" in an ideal world, in theory only, in the real world they're not.
...is actually the wrong way round. CDs lose.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 05:48:39 pm
But nobody is forcing anyone to compress the sound before putting it in a CD, rockman. This is just a marketing strategy that didn't exist when LPs weren't obsolete. CDs win.

Also, blind tests have confirmed that listeners cannot tell the difference between the quality of a CD and a LP, therefore CD wins again for several other reasons AND they have more potential for high-fidelity recordings.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 05:54:01 pm
But nobody is forcing anyone to compress the sound before putting it in a CD, rockman. This is just a marketing strategy that didn't exist when LPs weren't obsolete.
This is correct, but no one does because it is the modern recording standard to use level compressors. It's not a marketing strategy, it's an institutional convention. It's also not one rule for us and another for you, Inri, as you said earlier that...
Quote
LPs would only be "better just because they're analog" in an ideal world
...CDs would only be better in an ideal world, where level compressors were no longer used.
Quote
Also, blind tests have confirmed that listeners cannot tell the difference between the quality of a CD and a LP, therefore CD wins again for several other reasons
This brings it down to opinion again. Also this is a very shaky conclusion, considering that you are not specifying these reasons, something which you asked me to do (rudely, I might add!)

So, one must disregard the specific content of the vinyl record or CD in question, which can vary dramatically. With the same audio content, however, vinyl wins every time.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 06:04:59 pm
This is correct, but no one does because it is the modern recording standard to use level compressors. It's also not one rule for us and another for you, Inri, as you said

But CDs do not need them to work

Quote
earlier that......CDs would only be better in an ideal world, where level compressors were no longer used.

But what if they put compressed sounds in a LP. Will it become a worse recording medium just because of that?

Quote
This brings it down to opinion again. Also this is a very shaky conclusion, considering that you are not specifying these reasons, something which you asked me to do (rudely, I might add!)

You cannot recycle vinyl discs.
CDs are smaller.
You can uses CDs as mirrors, you can even make a periscope with them
You can pirate CDs at home
You can record CDs at home and it doesn't even need some huge and complicated machinery

But they still have the disavantage that they cannot be made of chocolate like LPs

Quote
So, one must disregard the specific content of the vinyl record or CD in question, which can vary dramatically. With the same audio content, however, vinyl wins every time.

Only for you LP worshippers
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bort on January 29, 2008, 06:05:45 pm
I'm not sure where you are failing to see the problem here. I actually thought it was common knowledge that Vinyls, in mint condition have a truer sound. Why do you think they still manafacture a limited supply of vinyls if the quality was inferior to digital?
djs

edit: also hipsters
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 06:16:44 pm
But CDs do not need them to work
I didn't say they did, straw man.
Quote
But what if they put compressed sounds in a LP. Will it become a worse recording medium just because of that?
But what if they put uncompressed sounds on a CD? Will it become a better recording medium just because of that?
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You cannot recycle vinyl discs.
Giving them to others when you no longer want them. They can also be fashioned into a (http://keetsa.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/07/cuff-from-recycled-vinyl-record.jpg) number (http://keetsa.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/vintage-record-bowls-1.jpg) of (http://computershopper.com/shoptalk/i/lg-case1a.jpg) other (http://www.greatgreengoods.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/300.jpg) objects (http://modculture.typepad.com/photos/uncategorized/2007/09/28/recordbook.jpg).
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CDs are smaller.
What does this have to do with anything?
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You can uses CDs as mirrors, you can even make a periscope with them
What does this have to do with anything?
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You can pirate CDs at home
Just as you can with vinyl records.
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You can record CDs at home and it doesn't even need some huge and complicated machinery
Yeah, computers aren't huge and complicated at all.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 06:34:25 pm
I didn't say they did, straw man.

Yes but nobody cares about current day recording and mastering practices
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But what if they put uncompressed sounds on a CD? Will it become a better recording medium just because of that?

No, it will remain the same thing, it will still be better than vinyl discs

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Giving them to others when you no longer want them.

What if someone forgets them under the sun and they become warpped and unplayable?

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What does this have to do with anything?


Well how many LPs can you put inside your pocket? I can put a lot of CDs inside mine and I like that, it's more practical.

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What does this have to do with anything?

It's just an advantage they have

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Just as you can with vinyl records.

But it will have to be either into a CD or a cassete tape

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Yeah, computers aren't huge and complicated at all.


If your computer is larger than this then I must admit it's HUGE
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 06:49:14 pm
Yes but nobody cares about current day recording and mastering practices
Maybe you don't, because it doesn't fit your crusade against vinyl records! It is, however, utterly relevant to this discussion.
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No, it will remain the same thing, it will still be better than vinyl discs
So you keep saying, yet you have not provided any viable evidence.
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What if someone forgets them under the sun and they become warpped and unplayable?
The same can happen with CDs. Also interesting how you conveniently ignored what was after that, which I believe answers your question very well.
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Well how many LPs can you put inside your pocket? I can put a lot of CDs inside mine and I like that, it's more practical.
Christ, how big are your pockets? I can't fit any CDs inside mine.
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It's just an advantage they have
It serves no purpose in the context of this argument.
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But it will have to be either into a CD or a cassete tape
Untrue! (http://www.pcworld.com/product/pricing/prtprdid,56340615/pricing.html) You should do your research before spouting things! (I have one of these, they are great)
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photographs of superceded vinyl record production machinery

If your computer is larger than this then I must admit it's HUGE
I didn't say that, straw man. That also doesn't make a computer any smaller nor any less complicated.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 07:10:51 pm
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So you keep saying, yet you have not provided any viable evidence.

F*CK every scientist and sound engineer in the world has proved that CDs have higher quality and you say I didn't provide any viable evidence, I do not understand that! I think the PVC molecules of your vinyls have caused you a brain disorder

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The same can happen with CDs. Also interesting how you conveniently ignored what was after that, which I believe answers your question very well.

Warped CDs can be recycled, LPs can't

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Christ, how big are your pockets? I can't fit any CDs inside mine.

If you wore cargo pants you would be able to put a lot of CDs inside them

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Untrue! You should do your research before spouting things! (I have one of these, they are great)

Wouldn't transforming it into a DIGITAL sound file have the same effect of putting it in a CD?

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I didn't say that, straw man. That also doesn't make a computer any smaller nor any less complicated.

Yes, they're already small and uncomplicated enough.

They're so uncomplicated any idiot can use them. Even I.


I'll stop now because it's no use trying to argue with LP purists.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 29, 2008, 07:23:34 pm
F*CK every scientist and sound engineer in the world has proved that CDs have higher quality and you say I didn't provide any viable evidence, I do not understand that!
It's all very well you saying that, but that does not necessarily make it true. Provide evidence, don't just talk about it.
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I think the PVC molecules of your vinyls have caused you a brain disorder
Now you're just being infantile.
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Warped CDs can be recycled, LPs can't
I provided those links for a reason.
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If you wore cargo pants you would be able to put a lot of CDs inside them
If you wore giant trousers you'd be able to fit vinyls in the pockets. This still has nothing to do with whether either are better.
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Wouldn't transforming it into a DIGITAL sound file have the same effect of putting it in a CD?
Yes, it would, that is my point! It doesn't make it any different to a CD in this regard.
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Yes, they're already small and uncomplicated enough.
Are you saying that computers aren't large, complicated pieces of machinery that require care with their usage?
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I'll stop now because it's no use trying to argue with LP purists.
Get off your high horse and provide any evidence for the "facts" you've spouted. There's no point trying to argue with idiots, either, so prove otherwise.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on January 29, 2008, 07:42:49 pm
someone should just ban inri cheetos.

at least my trolls reply to people, he just says UM...NOP.

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You cannot recycle vinyl discs.
CDs are smaller.
You can uses CDs as mirrors, you can even make a periscope with them
You can pirate CDs at home
You can record CDs at home and it doesn't even need some huge and complicated machinery

But they still have the disavantage that they cannot be made of chocolate like LPs

this shit is unbelievably unfunny or good or anything get banned inri cheetos tia.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bort on January 29, 2008, 08:12:58 pm
"BAN INRI CHEETOS"

god you are stupid steel
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on January 29, 2008, 08:16:55 pm
"BAN INRI CHEETOS"

god you are stupid steel

yeah that was clearly a serious argument for banning I was making instead of a hint for inri cheetos to shut the hell up because no one finds his shtick entertaining anymore.

look how dumb/gay/stupid/bort you are.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bort on January 29, 2008, 08:18:05 pm
you are many times as obnoxious and inri cheetos brings up valid points not about jenga

YOU ARE RUBBING A NEEDLE ACROSS PLASTIC THE SOUND IS GOING TO FUCK UP BECAUSE THE WORLD IS NOT A PERFECT PLACE BOOM
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bort on January 29, 2008, 08:20:18 pm
like seriously, he says "guys sure cds are only accurate to a certain extent [cause ][/cause] but pvc molecules have errors at that microscopic of a level etc" and then the response is AREYOU EVEN LISTENING? WHAT ABOUT SAMPLING RATES? TRAIN YOUR EARS? WHY DO THEY KEEP MAKING VINYL THEN??? VINYL!
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on January 29, 2008, 08:36:13 pm
except no not at all, he didn't say that at all and has instead said repeatedly CDS ARE SMALLER ALSO BIG COMPUTERS ARE NEEDED.

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- CDs have a better dynamic range than LPs
- You can't tell the difference between 96khz and 44khz sampling rates
- CDs have a higher fidelity than LPs and therefore they have a better sound quality
- The fact of thinking LPs are better is subjective
- CDs are better period

none of these are necessarily true. just because a broken clock is right twice a day doesn't mean it shouldn't be removed.

the reason vinyl sucks is because yeah they get easily dirty and melty and suck for more than like five listens and are expensive and LOADS of other reasons but that has nothing to do with sound quality or the basic theory behind vinyl or even appreciating vinyl.

its just getting irritating because everyone knows that analog recording by necessity is more clear and vinyls still suck but Inri Cheetos has to RAGE AGAINST THE VINYL MACHINE and perhaps most important of all is almost always completely off base.

like seriously, he says "guys sure cds are only accurate to a certain extent [cause of 1s and 0s and storage size and sampling rates etc but i dont know how he phrased it] but pvc molecules have errors at that microscopic of a level etc" and then the response is AREYOU EVEN LISTENING? WHAT ABOUT SAMPLING RATES? TRAIN YOUR EARS? WHY DO THEY KEEP MAKING VINYL THEN??? VINYL!

there are a lot of shortcomings but that kind of shit only occurs with poorly made or really old vinyls that might be warped with heat or something. like, I am pretty sure everyone is discussing a really rare case of a new well made vinyl versus a new well made cd, not what actually happens. PVC MOLECULES don't have errors (this makes no sense bort do you understand inri cheetos's brain yet MOLECULES DONT HAVE ERRORS but he keeps saying molecules instead of debris/dirt/anything not on the atomic level), but if the original process of making the vinyl was shoddy then yeah you'll get some material stuck in a bump which will cause it to make a pop.

most new vinyls will be better than new cds even on average because of the overproducing of sound (which exists everywhere now and can't be discounted with WELL IT DOESN'T NEED TO HAPPEN if we're going to speak on realism (which is the only way you can say vinyls degrade because in theory world you store vinyl in 300 dollar refrigerated sleeves or some shit)) and for every point he makes, he sticks his head into his own ass for the next ten.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bort on January 29, 2008, 08:44:36 pm
1. he said that when he was also talking about CHOCOLATE LPS ok
2. i dont mean errors i mean you are making shit out of plastic and there is no possible way it will form perfectly. same with cds but at least they are harder! regardless of whether or not ALL THE SOUND is put there and shit is not cut off like cds blah blah blah blah blah it is still on (pretty fluid/flexible) plastic and there are problems with this. maybe not even CRACKLES/POPS (though i sure get them) but just uhhhhhhhh so what if cds cannot hold all the information and have to sample at x rate and so on and so forth, plastic is not capable of that kind of fidelity either sorry
3. the OVERPRODUCED argument is bullshit because if you can buy a new vinyl you can buy a new cd of the same thing, and do you think they are going to be recorded differently?
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on January 29, 2008, 08:46:53 pm
inri cheetos is winning btw. that record pressing machine is to do thousands of presses, just like an industrial cd burner is giant. you can get small handpress things after you've made a plate iirc

cds are a much better format physically because they're smaller, more durable, and can be used as mirrors.
vinyls have a higher sampling rate because they're analogue but most of the extra information is dust, scratches, or other background noise that gives vinyl that distinctive feel.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Lyndon on January 29, 2008, 09:22:58 pm
this wasn't the arguement. The first thing I stated was that this only applies if the vinyl is in mint condition.

CD's a far more convienient and cheaper. They are smaller, easily copied and don't lose quality of sound overtime.

This wasn't my arguement. I simply said that Vinyl's store the actual sound, whereas CD's replicate the sound using thousands of little samples a second.

Inri cheetos was basically saying that thats not how CD's work and that they actually have a better quality of sound.

Digital is always trying to replicate what the actual true form is and quality-wise, they are getting pretty close, but it's still not exactly the same as analog.


also, bort: have you ever heard of CDJs? you can scratch, change tempo etc on a CD.

Vinyl DJs use Vinyls becuase they say it has better sound quality. It's anal, but can be true.

The main thing you need to remember is that anything Digital is always a representation of existing technology for convienience.

I'm not saying I prefer vinyl. Personally I don't care, I was meerly saying that technically vinyls hold the true sine wave and digital replicates the sine wave using samples of it...
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 29, 2008, 09:41:42 pm
I never said that lyndon. You're hallucinating.

BTW do any of you guys know of a freeware VST plugin that can simulate the low-fi sound of a LP?
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bort on January 29, 2008, 10:18:52 pm
also, bort: have you ever heard of CDJs? you can scratch, change tempo etc on a CD.

Vinyl DJs use Vinyls becuase they say it has better sound quality. It's anal, but can be true.
too recent of an invention to have any impact, and no, vinyl djs use vinyl because djs have used vinyl for years and years and years and it's a cultural thing more than anything else
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on January 30, 2008, 12:54:17 am
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Vinyl DJs use Vinyls becuase they say it has better sound quality. It's anal, but can be true.

there is no way in hell that's true at all.

I mean I can think of a few that would refuse CDs, like DJ Sushi and shit, but it definitely because vinyls are more popular by far.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Lyndon on January 30, 2008, 10:25:30 am
I DJ on my student radio station and all of the DJs that DJ at our nightclub use CDs.

CDs are definitley more popular than vinyls. Not all albums come out on CDs and when they do, it's usually only a limited amount :/

I never said that lyndon. You're hallucinating.

Hahaha very funny. But if you read on how CDs and vinyls and sampling rates (for audio) work you'll find out I'm right.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on January 30, 2008, 02:51:35 pm
I...don't think you know what kind of DJs we mean.

trust me the average hiphop DJ is definitely using vinyl because it's cheaper and more importantly, it's probably all he or she knows since it's saturated the industry so much!
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Ragnar on January 30, 2008, 04:24:02 pm
Well I'm not sure if vinyl is better but I do think it degrades gracefully

As in records have little crackles and pops and stuff but a damaged CD will make these really horrible sounds that make you want to kill yourself

But CDs can be ripped and copied back so CDs still win

Actually FLAC wins
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 30, 2008, 04:51:12 pm
I DJ on my student radio station and all of the DJs that DJ at our nightclub use CDs.

CDs are definitley more popular than vinyls. Not all albums come out on CDs and when they do, it's usually only a limited amount :/


 I still don't see where I said that CD audio doesn't work by taking a lot of samples per second

But google for Nyquist Theorem, you'll find out that what I said about sampling rate is true
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 30, 2008, 05:01:16 pm
But google for Nyquist Theorem, you'll find out that what I said about sampling rate is theoretical at best, which is what I said.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: bort on January 30, 2008, 05:59:23 pm
lol no way
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Lyndon on January 30, 2008, 06:54:38 pm
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

That link pretty much backs up and explains what I have already written about how CD audio is inferior to audio on a vinyl.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 30, 2008, 07:03:56 pm
I like it how that graph on that site is so dramatic.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Wash Cycle on January 31, 2008, 06:09:16 pm
http://entertainment.howstuffworks.com/question487.htm

That link pretty much backs up and explains what I have already written about how CD audio is inferior to audio on a vinyl.
yeah well thats theoretically, I dont know about you but I find it pretty hard to keep the dust and shit off of vinyls.
Title: Vinyls
Post by: Lyndon on January 31, 2008, 06:16:21 pm
Technically if you get a vinyl in mint condition, it will have a better sound quality than a CD. A CD takes sample of sounds and clumps them next to each other. The higher the sample rate, the smaller the samples will be, therefore sounding closer to the actual recording.

Vinyls don't work in the same way. All the sound is burnt to the Vinyl in it's true form, therefore it is the true form of music.

It's anal and you probably won't be able to tell the difference nowadays, but Digital will always be a representation of the 'real' thing.

my first post
Title: Vinyls
Post by: tuxedo marx on January 31, 2008, 06:55:04 pm
yeah well thats theoretically, I dont know about you but I find it pretty hard to keep the dust and shit off of vinyls.
Dust cloth!