Gaming World Forums
General Category => Entertainment and Media => Topic started by: Paranoia Dude on January 18, 2008, 04:57:51 am
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Alright kids, this time it's for real.
I've been looking at the previous speedrunning competitions, which all miserably crashed and burned after interest died out or personal problems came and interceded in the wellbeing of the competition. So I've taken a step back and realized the competition had to be done at a smaller scale. While individual levels are short, verifying all of them from start to finish, while also waiting for the winner to decide on his game, added too much time to what should have been seen as a naturally fast competition (of course, it's all about speed). So I've decided that the best course for the next one would be to ask persons to speedrun an entire game instead of an individual level. This game would be the only one featured in the entire competition, and whoever would have the fastest time (recorded in played frames, not in in-game time units) would be the winner of the entire competition. This will make it easier on everyone in the competition, and it will make for a fiercer and more exciting event.
Another new element will be that instead of being chosen by one person, I'll ask what you people would like to see being speedran. This poll isn't just open to entrants, but to everyone who is genuinely interested in the competition. I'm aiming for a more casual approach to the competition, and it would be great to see what the people outside of it would like to watch. These games will be Mega Man, Mega Man 2, Super Mario Bros. 3, Metroid (any%) and Castlevania. Why two Mega Man games? Both are played in a radically different way, and both are very high quality titles that see constant improvement on their current best time over the many years they have been released. Voting will take place in this topic and end in 30 days time, upon its closure, I'll make a new topic or edit this one with the ruleset and registered people.
On a smaller note, I think interest also dwindled due to the large gap in skill levels between people like Dada and myself and the other players, so we have both decided not to enter this competition and simply act as judges and observers. Another rule I will be adding will be that disclosing your current time will be deemed as an "illegal move", for one, times will be only official when they are officially judged and you might be driving people to an inaccurate assumption, and it also discourages players in a way, those who see the gap between all of them is too large will simply drop out and not submit anything, which isn't what I'm aiming for.
And thus, the outcome of the newest speedrun competition is in your hands. Prepare yourselves, this one might be the good one!
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(recorded in played frames, not in in-game time units)
What does this mean? Does it have to be played on an emulator for this? It can't be played on a system and TV?
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i'm totally gonna be in this, but i can't really choose which one i'd want to play most, though i will say i vote AGAINST SMB(i hate mario), not that i won't play it, i'd just prefer anything else
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Did Dada tell you about this? I PMed him not-so-long ago about starting up a new speed run competition. Also I think doing an entire game isn't too good of an idea. Single levels are a lot more manageable, since a lot of us wouldn't be able to do a whole game.
If we must do a whole game, then I am game for either Metroid or Super Mario Brothers. I will pick Metroid.
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I voted Megaman 2, it'll give me some insentive to play it, if not Megaman 2, then Super Mario.
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Yeah, I'm not promising I'm going to take part but I think speedrunning an entire game is just too much. It's not more casual approach at all, it might seem like that to you but believe me, it's not. It wouldn't even be a real speedrunning contest because almost no one here is going to beat an entire game testing for ideas how to do it in a fast or even the fastest way possible. It would just end in people beating games casually, dying and hoping to get a good time. I'd rather see levels than whole games.
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I agree on levels as opposed to the whole game. It would be much faster in all aspects, and a full game may be too much for quite a few.
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I'm glad that it is just more than I that sees that running an entire game is a little bit too large in scope, levels would be way better.
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after watching king of kong ive been dying to try a speedrun or something competetive.
ill join in but i wont do a whole game takes way too long imo...
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Why do you always pick NES games with low max speed and movement engines with few variable speeds? They only result in boring runs with little difference between them, like the SMB ones last year. It would be much more interesting if it was a fast game with more complex level design.
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Why do you always pick NES games with low max speed and movement engines with few variable speeds? They only result in boring runs with little difference between them, like the SMB ones last year. It would be much more interesting if it was a fast game with more complex level design.
That's why the Mega Man and Metroid games are there. Runs can vary differently from one to another.
As for the full games complaint, the more level idea might actually be Konix's: to get a certain set of levels through different games to be played (I'm thinking 5 games, all radically different in playstyles), or just going through a full game. While a full game does look a little long, you have to realize that the games I posted have all been beaten in 20 minutes or less (well, except for Mega Man 2, which took 30 minutes). Since the speedruns have to be a single-segment, playing through a game a few times trying to go as fast as possible and finishing in less than an half hour isn't that much really, hell, some shooting games that are ridiculed as being ''too short'' or some other stupid bullshit like that usually ends up being a lot faster than actually speedrunning a game like that.
But I'm considering Konix's option seriously, I should have an idea of a good runnable set of levels/games on NES.
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That's why the Mega Man and Metroid games are there. Runs can vary differently from one to another.
As for the full games complaint, the more level idea might actually be Konix's: to get a certain set of levels through different games to be played (I'm thinking 5 games, all radically different in playstyles), or just going through a full game. While a full game does look a little long, you have to realize that the games I posted have all been beaten in 20 minutes or less (well, except for Mega Man 2, which took 30 minutes). Since the speedruns have to be a single-segment, playing through a game a few times trying to go as fast as possible and finishing in less than an half hour isn't that much really, hell, some shooting games that are ridiculed as being ''too short'' or some other stupid bullshit like that usually ends up being a lot faster than actually speedrunning a game like that.
But I'm considering Konix's option seriously, I should have an idea of a good runnable set of levels/games on NES.
But speedrunning it is a lot different since we aren't actual "speed runners" in the sense. The last competition was enough trying to get through single levels, let alone the whole game. Plus levels would allow you to vary the games around easier.
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As for the full games complaint, the more level idea might actually be Konix's: to get a certain set of levels through different games to be played (I'm thinking 5 games, all radically different in playstyles), or just going through a full game. While a full game does look a little long, you have to realize that the games I posted have all been beaten in 20 minutes or less (well, except for Mega Man 2, which took 30 minutes). Since the speedruns have to be a single-segment, playing through a game a few times trying to go as fast as possible and finishing in less than an half hour isn't that much really, hell, some shooting games that are ridiculed as being ''too short'' or some other stupid bullshit like that usually ends up being a lot faster than actually speedrunning a game like that.
How long would it take for one of the GWers here to beat those games? The 20-30 minute times are the best times there are and people have reached them by beating the games many, many times, tried different tricks in different levels and just spent a lot of time to get everything right, not to mention how many times it takes to run a whole game without messing up one of the vital parts to get a time that good. Realistically thinking, it takes a lot longer for any of us to beat those games and it's not like we want to beat them dozens of times to get good times. Maybe at best someone's willing to beat the game 3-4 times and even with that the times won't improve that much. It just won't work with full games and it won't be much of a speedrun competition.
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I have trouble beating some of those games even when it's not a speed run.
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I have trouble beating some of those games even when it's not a speed run.
ya you and me m8
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I really think that you'll be better off playing a full game than a set of levels.
The prime reason is that it's easier to focus on just one set of physics and capabilities than that of several games. I find it a good idea to run just one game. I think that once you get "into" the game a little, you'll be able to manage. When using multiple games instead of one, there's also the issue of the game being boring to some players, who might decide to only spend a little bit of time on their run or even skip the round entirely.
I personally think that this competition has a better chance of success if we keep the single-game plan. It won't be as tough as you think unless you're interested in playing it at a really high level, but I doubt any of you are (and those that are, good luck!)
I think that Rockman and Rockman 2 are the most interesting games, for the simple reason that I've done extensive speedrunning on both of those and am interested in seeing what other people make of it. But probably the coolest game would be Metroid. It isn't as tough as you think. The current world record is at 18 minutes, but I'm positive that decent players will be able to land somewhere in the 21-25 region easily. Metroid is easier because it has more tolerance for mistakes, unlike the Rockman games, which immediately end your attempt the instance you miss a certain jump. They're much more difficult.
So, I voted for Metroid.
EDIT: seems that Rockman 2 is winning. Remember, you can also just speedrun part of the game. In Rockman 2's case, this is easy. Just pick the first few logical stages. The optimal route is Air Man, Quick Man, Flash Man, Metal Man, Bubble Man, Heat Man, Crash Man, Wood Man. The optimal route through the Robot Master rematch is Quick Man, Crash Man, Wood Man, Air Man, Heat Man, Bubble Man, Metal Man, Flash Man. The most difficult part about this game and all other games you're going to speedrun in its entirety is the fact that you need to stay alive.
I have trouble beating some of those games even when it's not a speed run.
You'd be surprised at how much a difference it can make when you know what you're supposed to do. Watching the current world record videos at the Speed Demos Archive (http://speeddemosarchive.com/) would be a nice start.
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you do realize that no one wants to look through strategies on speedrunning all of megaman and are mostly content to just run through the game as fast as possible without fucking around.
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I pretty much think that by the point you are posting optimal routes and watching world record videos is when you kill off 99% of possible contestants interest and turn it into 3 people submitting and the other guys giving up / getting bored.
so that is basically by the time you are speedrunning megaman because you have to be like a math major to enjoy speedrunning that game. I loved speedrunning Sparkster because you can't calculate the perfect way to beat it because it is a reflex-based action game, so it's all about figuring out good paths, learning to beat enemies fast, learn to control his ADD spastic movement and well not dying. Megaman is like hold right / dont get hit / bring up the pause menu during bosses.
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I completely agree with Bisse's above comment, I would be interested in doing this but I don't have the time to run through 2-4 hour games repeatedly in -single segments- in order to get a perfect run, particularly for players like us who haven't practised the game for years that could take a good 50 odd runs to get even a mediocre run go smoothly...and even then the time would be pretty poor. I just can't see the enjoyment factor of playing such a large chunk over and over.
And how did you get 21-25 minutes easily when the world record is 18 minutes?! that just doesn't compute with me at all.
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I really think that you'll be better off playing a full game than a set of levels.
The prime reason is that it's easier to focus on just one set of physics and capabilities than that of several games. I find it a good idea to run just one game. I think that once you get "into" the game a little, you'll be able to manage. When using multiple games instead of one, there's also the issue of the game being boring to some players, who might decide to only spend a little bit of time on their run or even skip the round entirely.
I personally think that this competition has a better chance of success if we keep the single-game plan. It won't be as tough as you think unless you're interested in playing it at a really high level, but I doubt any of you are (and those that are, good luck!)
You'd be surprised at how much a difference it can make when you know what you're supposed to do. Watching the current world record videos at the Speed Demos Archive (http://speeddemosarchive.com/) would be a nice start.
Referring to the "focus on mechanics" of one game ordeal, I think this is a bit more trivial of a matter when it comes to single levels. I think this cancels out to a degree since you are just focusing on one level, this means that the enviroments don't change as much, plus you won't be playing it as long. Concerning the boring issue, picking one game is even worse I think. When you have one game, as we can see already it seems that more people are already less inclined to join in. Having the game list be dynamic means that more people would feel like they want to be a part of it. I do agree that having examples set on the table is easier for you, but regardless of this, a lot of people still couldn't manage simply because they really aren't capable of it, even if they can watch someone else do it.
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I do agree that having examples set on the table is easier for you
Yeah, and a lot more boring too!
replicate this run to win
Anyway:
- I definitely don't think we should play the same damn game the whole competition. Would get super ultra boring and personally, i'd drop out even if I was doing good.
- I personally don't think we should play Megaman because speedrunning that game is all about the boring parts of speedrunning imho.
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Yeah, I've done the other speedrunning comps and I just can't fathom trying to beat one of those games in less than half an hour. I'm lucky if I can get past a single level of Megaman in half an hour, much less the whole damn thing. And Metroid? How the hell do you do it that fast? It's just too much.
I have to disagree with Omega completely. I mean, he's saying that one game means you don't have to worry about several different physics. That makes sense, but if you are worried about one level, you get used to the physics pretty damn fast. I remember playing Contra 3 (or whatever the European or whatever release was) and figuring out "Oh hey, I should use the flamethrower here" after a couple of playthroughs. That was after a couple of runs and, like, 5 minutes. In Mega Man, if I screw up something, or don't know the trick, I am going to have to start the whole damn thing over again. And like I said, there is no way I can do the whole thing in less than half an hour, much less want to do it over and over again for several hours.
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(recorded in played frames, not in in-game time units)
What does this mean? Does it have to be played on an emulator for this? It can't be played on a system and TV?
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you do realize that no one wants to look through strategies on speedrunning all of megaman and are mostly content to just run through the game as fast as possible without fucking around.
I don't know, man, I think that telling people what order of Robot Masters they should take just makes it easier, contrary to what logic may have you believe. Part of the reason why many people have difficulties finishing certain levels in Mega Man is because they don't have suitable powers for that stage or boss. Just following the optimal order ensures you have what it takes whenever you need it.
- I definitely don't think we should play the same damn game the whole competition. Would get super ultra boring and personally, i'd drop out even if I was doing good.
Still, though, both times we did it the other way, the competition came to a standstill.
Man, I think the problem is the fact that I see speedrunning as a chore. Maybe you guys are right and we should just drop every rule and just pick a game and play it. But I personally think it would be more fun if people knew a little bit more about the strategies involved just so everybody can compete on a bit more serious level with each other without having to put in that much extra effort.
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What does this mean? Does it have to be played on an emulator for this? It can't be played on a system and TV?
The issue here is that you need to provide a recording of your speedrun for entertainment and verification purposes. If you have a means of recording yourself playing the game on a real system, then feel free to use that (I presume). Most people will be using an emulator, though, since they allow demo recording. (A demo file is a really tiny file of a few KBs that contains your input, which is easier to send to someone than a large AVI file.)
And Metroid? How the hell do you do it that fast? It's just too much.
It's mostly knowing where to go. I don't think Metroid is the easiest game to speedrun, but it certainly isn't as hard as the Rockman games.
In Mega Man, if I screw up something, or don't know the trick, I am going to have to start the whole damn thing over again.
Yeah, this is why I think you shouldn't pick that game, even if it's perfect for speedrunning purposes. Its error margin is very small. Especially in stages such as Air Man's, where a bad jump will cause you to fall and die (that's partially why it comes first in the order) or Bubble Man, where jumping too high will cause instant death.
You probably shouldn't worry about dying, though, since I figure most people will die at least once during the making of a Rockman run. There are a lot of things that can go wrong, but everybody will be having that problem. If you can run the game with only one or even two deaths, then that's already a pretty agreeable result.
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i think metroid would actually be fun to speedrun due to the fact you will actually get varied results. no other game on that list is worth speedrunning because everyone will be really similar and itll just be the GUY THAT DIDNT DIE THAT ONE TIME that wins, and thats boring.
i still think different levels would be better but if you do a full game do a metroid or metroidvania or something.
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Megaman 1. Only because It pisses me off beyond the point of no return.
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How about the original contra? Not too hard to beat.
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How about the original contra? Not too hard to beat.
But... but those 3Dish segments crush my poor fragile soul.
I beat MS1 without dying but I can't fucking beat stage 2 in contra.
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How about speedrunning games that haven't been speedran (?) before? I think that would be pretty interesting because there isn't really a "REPLICATE THIS" factor and it would be pretty crazy if someone was like "HEY SPEEDRUN THIS FPS." I think we'd be able to get a lot of unique and creative runs and it would open up the crowd quite a bit.
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How about speedrunning games that haven't been speedran (?) before? I think that would be pretty interesting because there isn't really a "REPLICATE THIS" factor and it would be pretty crazy if someone was like "HEY SPEEDRUN THIS FPS." I think we'd be able to get a lot of unique and creative runs and it would open up the crowd quite a bit.
I can't think of too many good games that haven't been speedran yet. Got any specific suggestions?
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I can't think of too many good games that haven't been speedran yet. Got any specific suggestions?
(http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/32484/1.jpg)
Genesis - Baby's Day Out
OR
(http://www.gamingw.net/pubaccess/32484/McDonald\'s Treasure Land Adventure (U) [!]_001 copy.gif)
Genesis - McDonald's Treasure Land Adventure
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I can't think of too many good games that haven't been speedran yet. Got any specific suggestions?
LA-MULANA
Beat the first boss as quickly as possible would be pretty cool. You'll have to do video recordings though :(
Other ones I can think of that aren't like at least popular for speedrunning (afaik) are Strider, Gunstar Heroes, Batman for NES, Metal Storm-
HOLY SHIT METAL STORM. We need to speedrun Metal Storm. Youtube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2IkkkfAc9k) vids (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bRQ0LIJ3jzU) in case you haven't heard of it. Who's with me??
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If you're gonna do a Genesis game, you could go with some Sonic game (I've only played Sonic 3 & Knuckles, so I don't know about the others). It's been speedrun to death, true, but it's very straightforward, so there's barely the need to "mimic" whatever someone else does, as the optimal route is self-explanatory (for most part). Correct me if I'm wrong about that.
I don't like Genesis games, though! But it's up to you, I'm not partaking in this anyway.
Other ones I can think of that aren't like at least popular for speedrunning (afaik) are Strider, Gunstar Heroes, Batman for NES, Metal Storm-
These have all been done already, by the way. (Except La-Mulana, but it may be a little difficult to do that one because you'd have to emulate it in DOSBox and then record your progress with a tool like Snag-It.)
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These have all been done already, by the way. (Except La-Mulana, but it may be a little difficult to do that one because you'd have to emulate it in DOSBox and then record your progress with a tool like Snag-It.)
Emulate it in DOSBox? What the fuck? It was released in 2004 and made in MMF, it's a windows game. Unless emulating it in DOSBox is to make it easier to record somehow...?
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Emulate it in DOSBox? What the fuck? It was released in 2004 and made in MMF, it's a windows game. Unless emulating it in DOSBox is to make it easier to record somehow...?
Oh, is it? I didn't know it at all so I searched Google for it and found it on Home of the Underdogs. And by its looks, I judged that it was probably made around 1993 or something.
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Oh, is it? I didn't know it at all so I searched Google for it and found it on Home of the Underdogs. And by its looks, I judged that it was probably made around 1993 or something.
Oh main you ain't played it? It's basically the ultimate Indiana Jones game. Similiarly to Metroid you run around in a huge cave system solving puzzles, however in this game the focus is on solving puzzles instead of gathering items. So it's a rock hard archeologist game where you need to take notes and draw maps and figure out nasty, horrible riddles that unlike any game i've ever played, really are hard. It even, despite being all alone in a dark cave system, has a great story. You'd love it.
A speedrun to beat the first boss would basically be identifying and writing down just what you need to do to 'unlock' the boss, and then finding the quickest path / way to do it. The movement and physics are pretty simple, and apart from the fact that jumping is faster and walking there's not much you can do to get to places quickly so it's all about finding the best route. It'd have some interesting choices, for example once you know what to do you don't need the hand scanner and translating equipment necessary to read stone tablets, so you can save time by not having to collect the money to buy them, however if you don't get those you won't be able to use the teleport (since you can't read what's on the teleport statue) which is really handy to move about the dungeon quickly.
Only problem is you would need to record it with Snag-It or Camtasia or whatever, and also getting to the first boss would probably take at least 15-25mins so the vids would be long. You can however see the amount of time you've played so a screenshot of that might do it.
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Gunstar Heroes would be a good choice; it's not too hard, has level selection, and there's quite a few different weapons to choose from that each have their merits. Also, the game doesn't take all that long to beat.
I suppose what I mean is that it'd be easy enough for someone to pick up and play if they've never tried it before and it wouldn't take that long at all to get good at it.
Edit: After thinking about it, there's probably optimal routes already planned and run for this game, and the dice palace would be all about luck for a single segment run, but I can't see that making a huge difference; just start with the dice palace until you get a good time on it.