Gaming World Forums
General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: dada on January 18, 2008, 11:13:25 pm
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(http://gamingw.net/pubaccess/28695/Bobby%2520Fischer%2520at%2520the%25201972%2520chess%2520table.jpg)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7195840.stm
The controversial former world chess champion, Bobby Fischer, has died in Iceland at the age of 64.
The US-born player, who became famous for beating Cold War Soviet rival Boris Spassky in 1972, died of an unspecified illness, his spokesman said.
Bobby Fischer, one of my heroes, passed away today at the age of 64. He was one of the greatest chess players in the world, beating his opponents with unprecedented numbers during the world championship in 1972. The road to his world championship match was paved with zeros for his opponents, even in the candidates' matches; something that never happened before throughout the game's history and has since never happened again. His victory over Boris Spassky made him an American hero, one who beat the Soviets at a game they had dominated for a quarter century at that time.
After his famous victory, he refused to defend his title against Anatoly Karpov in 1975, and lost his title by default. It turns out that move 40...h5 during his last game versus Spassky had been the last official move he'd ever make. He had beaten every single opponent before him, and was able to do it again, but there just wasn't anything in it for him anymore. He had beaten the world before. The world had become uninteresting.
He vanished from the public eye for 20 years. In 1992, he resurfaced briefly to play a match against his old rival Spassky in Yugoslavia, despite a UN embargo that included sanctions on sporting events. He was actually warned by the US Department of Treasury that it would be illegal for him to play this match due to the embargo; in front of the international press, Fischer was filmed spitting on the order that forbid him to play. He won the match and over 3 million USD, and as a result had an arrest warrant obtained for him by the Department of Treasury.
Nine years later, right after the September 11 attacks, he was interviewed on a Philippine radio station and proclaimed "the White House and Pentagon have been attacked. This is all wonderful news." He called for the death of George W. Bush and insisted that the US government then "execute hundreds of thousands of American Jewish leaders", "arrest all the Jews", and "close all synagogues". Fischer had been a strong anti-semite for a long time, and had claimed often times that the source of his misfortunes was a Jewish conspiracy. His mother was Jewish.
In 2004, he was arrested at a Japanese airport near Tokyo for trying to take a flight to the Philippines with an invalid passport. Still wanted by the United States, Fischer was now suddenly in a position where he could be extradited to his home country, despite not having actually violated Japanese law. After a lot of political discussion that's too boring to describe, he managed to get Iceland to offer him an alien's passport. This proved to be insufficient for the Japanese authorities, and thus Icelandic officials decided to provide him full citizenship for humanitarian reasons, stating their belief that the United States had singled him out for his political statements.
And so he became a naturalized Icelander. Iceland is crazy about chess, and Fischer's arrival was welcomed by a crowd.
Unfortunately, he had been suffering from kidney problems the past couple of months. The details were private and thus difficult to verify. Einar Einarsson, the chairman of a Fischer support group in Iceland, stated "he was not a man who wanted to seek medical attention. He didn't believe in Western medicine."
As I said, Fischer was one of my heroes. He had a very imaginative play style, and had shown himself to be capable of defeating some of the top players with humiliating numbers. He first beat Mark Taimanov with a ridiculous 6-0. The defeat was so stunning that poor Taimanov was sanctioned by the Soviet government due to their thinking he had deliberately lost the match so badly due to an underlying political motive. However, they changed their minds after Fischer defeated three-time world champion candidate Bent Larsen with the same incredible 6-0 score. Obviously, Fischer was simply too good for anyone to compete with. This kind of difference in quality had never been seen before, and would never be seen again. Fischer was a phenomenon, one who immortalized himself and solidified the status of chess as a game for professionals during that world championship tournament.
I'm really saddened by this. It actually gave me a brief feeling of mortality. There are more people who I consider to be heroes, and they too are of age by now. It's kind of strange when a person like that dies. You just don't consider of the fact that they too are only human.
SHARE YOUR THOUGHTS.
EDIT: and PLEASE don't reply with "checkmate". That is seriously lame. And we know that there are 64 squares on a chess board, so there's no need to inform anybody.
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Would have been interesting if Fischer had gone against Deep Blue.
Honestly I didn't even know he was still alive, he's such a private figure.
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Nine years later, right after the September 11 attacks, he was interviewed on a Philippine radio station and proclaimed "the White House and Pentagon have been attacked. This is all wonderful news." He called for the death of George W. Bush and insisted that the US government then "execute hundreds of thousands of American Jewish leaders", "arrest all the Jews", and "close all synagogues". Fischer had been a strong anti-semite for a long time, and had claimed often times that the source of his misfortunes was a Jewish conspiracy. His mother was Jewish.
Wow, what a dick. I can't say I'm going to miss such a hateful person.
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but duede... THE JEWS... THE JEWS!
this guy sounds like one opf the people I would loved to have followed if I had heard about him before today. He seems so random and ncrazy.
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As I said, Fischer was one of my heroes. He had a very imaginative play style, and had shown himself to be capable of defeating some of the top players with humiliating numbers. He first beat Mark Taimanov with a ridiculous 6-0. The defeat was so stunning that poor Taimanov was sanctioned by the Soviet government due to their thinking he had deliberately lost the match so badly due to an underlying political motive. However, they changed their minds after Fischer defeated three-time world champion candidate Bent Larsen with the same incredible 6-0 score. Obviously, Fischer was simply too good for anyone to compete with. This kind of difference in quality had never been seen before, and would never be seen again. Fischer was a phenomenon, one who immortalized himself and solidified the status of chess as a game for professionals during that world championship tournament.
I'm really saddened by this. It actually gave me a brief feeling of mortality. There are more people who I consider to be heroes, and they too are of age by now. It's kind of strange when a person like that dies. You just don't consider of the fact that they too are only human.
are you KIDDING ME.
Fischer was a fucking monster. he claimed that women were too stupid to play chess and he was vocally anti-semitic and hateful. the majority of chess players distance themselves from him because he's an odious little prick who deserved to die alone and ostracized, as he did.
I respect his chess abilities but he's nothing but a worthless thug as far as anything else goes, and while I wouldn't say good riddance, I certainly find it ridiculous that you'd call him a hero while purposefully ignoring a history full of hatred and bigotry just because he's good at a board game (albeit a very difficult one).
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"There is no United States as people think of it. It's just a puppet in the Jew's hands. It's a plaything for the Jews."
"I'm very concerned because I think the Jews want to drive the elephants to extinction ... because the trunk of an elephant reminds them of an uncircumcised penis. ... I'm absolutely serious about that."
"Almost everyone who has been around me turned out to be a secret agent working for the Jews, working for the CIA... The Jews have planted so many of their Jew agents and CIA rats all around me. So many people... Girlfriends, lawyers, everybody almost, turned out to be working for the CIA and the Jews! Unbelievable but true."
"They're all weak, all women. They're stupid compared to men. They shouldn't play chess, you know. They're like beginners. They lose every single game against a man. There isn't a woman player in the world I can't give knight-odds to and still beat."
"You don't learn anything in school. It's just a waste of time. You lug around books and all and do homework. They give too much homework. You shouldn't be doing homework. Nobody's interested in it. The teachers are stupid. They shouldn't have any women in there. They don't know how to teach. And they shouldn't make anyone go to school. You don't want to go, you don't go, that's all. It's ridiculous. I don't remember one thing I learned in school. I don't listen to weakies. My two and a half years in Erasmus High I wasted. I didn't like the whole thing. You have to mix with all those stupid kids. The teachers are even stupider than the kids. They talk down to the kids. Half of them are crazy. If they'd have let me, I would have quit before I was sixteen."
Hey Bobby Fischer maybe you should have gone to school and learned some class. :sport:
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are you KIDDING ME.
Fischer was a fucking monster. he claimed that women were too stupid to play chess and he was vocally anti-semitic and hateful. the majority of chess players distance themselves from him because he's an odious little prick who deserved to die alone and ostracized, as he did.
I respect his chess abilities but he's nothing but a worthless thug as far as anything else goes, and while I wouldn't say good riddance, I certainly find it ridiculous that you'd call him a hero while purposefully ignoring a history full of hatred and bigotry just because he's good at a board game (albeit a very difficult one).
I don't really care what you think. He was a tragic figure, I don't deny that, but I also believe that he was crazy and it's hard to take someone like that seriously in any case.
But it's not just the fact he was good at board game, it's that he carried it to unprecedented heights. He was the one who truly invented the phenomenon of professional chess. He's had more of an impact on the game than anybody else in the world.
And that's the reason why he was one of my heroes.
EDIT: and you can go on a tirade about how terrible a person he was and how I should not be allowed to admire him for anything. It won't change anything for me. He was a difficult individual and terribly paranoid, blaming everybody else for his problems and constantly reiterating how good he was.
He wasn't a very good person, but you'd be surprised at how shocked the chess world is. Everybody's going to miss Bobby Fischer. And why? I guess you're gonna have to be a chess player (http://chessdiscussion.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=677) to know.
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Sounds like quite the character. A lot of people I look up to have pretty big flaws, and this one had as well. I'm sure his views have their reasons though, so I'm not one to judge him.
Rest in peace I guess, althought I dunno who he is. Certain family members might since they are into chess...
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Yes that's so cool lets hate him because he didn't like jews
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I hope this doesn't turn into a debate of how much of a monster he was.
Edit:
I know those were some big flaws. The way I look at it is this way, if he isn't in a position of power, I frankly don't give damn. Even though his views does not effect me personally, I would most likely say the same thing even if it did. If what he said bothers you then you should probably just ignore him really.
I've known horriblely racist people and honestly, I just look at them and laugh and go about my business. You can't change a bigot, especially if he is dead. There will always be people to put him in his place, unfortunately, I'm not one of those people (of course I would rip him to shred if I heard what he said in person).
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B-b-but!! Th movie! It was so c-cool! You have to like him!
Honestly, I JUST saw this on the news about five minutes ago. I was pretty saddened because all I had known about him was what was in the movie, but now that I know about all these comments and accusations Fisher made, well... it just puts him in a new light, and not a very good one, at that.
Still, his skills at chess were admirable. It's just a pity that life didn't emulate the movies.
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I can't play chess (I'm too dumb) but I can appreciate him.
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Some videos:
http://edition.cnn.com/2008/US/01/18/fischer.obit/#cnnSTCVideo - Fischer arriving in Reykjavík, and Garry Kasparov today on Fischer.
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I don't really care what you think. He was a tragic figure, I don't deny that, but I also believe that he was crazy and it's hard to take someone like that seriously in any case.
But it's not just the fact he was good at board game, it's that he carried it to unprecedented heights. He was the one who truly invented the phenomenon of professional chess. He's had more of an impact on the game than anybody else in the world.
And that's the reason why he was one of my heroes.
...TRAGIC.
he's a fucking anti-semitic nut!
the reason you like him is because he was good at a game. don't say he took it to unprecedented heights; it was the Soviet players that took chess to unprecedented heights, both in the past and now. Fischer's breaking the law and playing in Yugoslavia (for a black market 5 million dollar chess game) nearly caused an international incident until he fled the country. the incident was slightly ridiculous, but Fischer of course plays it off as a ZOG conspiracy. the only time he's appeared in the news since is to spout some horrible garbage, and of course, carries the title: Chess Champion Bobby Fischer Believes Jews Hate Elephants For Their Dicks.
for all the good Fischer did to chess, he did equal harm to society, and to anyone who respects chess players. he proved what people had suggested but never had examples of before; that chess playing apparently has less to do with intelligence than was previously thought. after all, if someone writes that shit, they've got a dustbin for a mind.
Fischer is no hero. whatever his abilities are, they are far outweighed by his disgusting and foul politics. you may not care what I think, but I refuse to let your write some revisionist garbage about some noble chess hero helping the game instead of who he really was, which includes his very public, very famous, statements.
I hope this doesn't turn into a debate of how much of a monster he was.
Edit:
I know those were some big flaws. The way I look at it is this way, if he isn't in a position of power, I frankly don't give damn. Even though his views does not effect me personally, I would most likely say the same thing even if it did. If what he said bothers you then you should probably just ignore him really.
I've known horriblely racist people and honestly, I just look at them and laugh and go about my business. You can't change a bigot, especially if he is dead. There will always be people to put him in his place, unfortunately, I'm not one of those people (of course I would rip him to shred if I heard what he said in person).
that's incredibly poor reasoning; Fischer also was in a position of power, unless you only learned about him via this topic and missed all the news releases about him when he'd come out just to say "FUCK JEWS". ignoring bigotry only gives the bigot more ammunition because guess what champ no one else will. revising Fischer's past to say "oh he just thinks Jews are bad what a hero otherwise" is akin to saying that the Sandanistas were a completely peace loving group with the exception of a few nasty dissidents.
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who are the sandanotinas?
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the reason you like him is because he was good at a game. don't say he took it to unprecedented heights; it was the Soviet players that took chess to unprecedented heights, both in the past and now.
You know nothing about chess. Don't pretend like you do.
I don't expect you to change your mind over this, anyway. You're not a chess player, so you don't see him in the same way that I do. You can argue that he was a terrible person who caused more harm to society than good to chess, but that's debatable. I don't consider Fischer to have been a major influence on international politics. He was just an individual, after all.
And yeah, go argue that last part however much you want. But you don't have an understanding of chess players if you think that most of the chess world isn't going to be saddened by this news.
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I really don't understand how the fact that he was an excellent chess player excuses him from the fact that he was pretty obviously a terrible human being. You can glorify (or respect) his contribution to chess all you want, but that doesn't make him a "hero".
This is really fucking stupid. I just don't get how any one good series of actions can excuse an awful person from guilt in anyone's mind. I know you have a big hard-on for chess, Dada, but this is absurd.
edit: No, I don't know dick all about chess, and it's important to realize that that doesn't matter at all when it comes to horrible people fading out of the mortal coil.
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Don't try to reason with Dada, dangerousned, you don't belong to the Exclusive Elite Club of Chess Players.
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I really don't understand how the fact that he was an excellent chess player excuses him from the fact that he was pretty obviously a terrible human being. You can glorify (or respect) his contribution to chess all you want, but that doesn't make him a "hero".
He wasn't "a" hero. He was one of my heroes. That has nothing to do with you. He was hardly a hero to the world.
You guys just didn't get inspired by Fischer like I did. That's the issue here. I'm a chess player and I know that he was one of the most iconic and important figures in the history of the game. Whether he was the greatest, I don't know, but he's the reason a lot of people are playing it today, including some of the top players, like Kasparov.
Don't try to reason with Dada, dangerousned, you don't belong to the Exclusive Elite Club of Chess Players.
And yeah, feel free to flame me for taking up this stance or whatever (there's no need to do that by the way, Man-O-War). But that's what I think. And I'm not excusing the fact he was a lunatic. Because he was. I'm not trying to downplay it either, despite thinking that he wasn't actually harmful at any time. But I'm a chess player and I find it difficult.
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I'm not flaming you because you're defending a psychotic anti-Semite (well, maybe that is part of it), I'm flaming you because you're coming off as a huge elitist.
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You know nothing about chess. Don't pretend like you do.
I'm Indian buddy, I told you earlier all my friends were chess dorks (which is why I have zero interest in it). Russia made chess what it is, not Bobby Fischer. Fischer may have had an impact on the AMERICAN side but it's always been Russians and Europeans who have fostered growth and interest in chess.
I don't expect you to change your mind over this, anyway. You're not a chess player, so you don't see him in the same way that I do. You can argue that he was a terrible person who caused more harm to society than good to chess, but that's debatable. I don't consider Fischer to have been a major influence on international politics. He was just an individual, after all.
And yeah, go argue that last part however much you want. But you don't have an understanding of chess players if you think that most of the chess world isn't going to be saddened by this news.
I can honestly say that if anyone in a circle that I paid attention to, political, musical, whatever, died and they had a history of anti-semitism or racism, I wouldn't call them a hero. some of my favorite writers and thinkers went on to do incredibly terrible things and I don't call them heroes.
I find it incredibly suspect that you posted an OP without once mentioning the only thing Fischer's been doing for the past like twenty years. you can keep saying "A LOSS FOR THE CHESS WORLD" but you're purposefully ignoring the fact that after 1975 Fischer played about once. he also made ridiculous demands, resigned the title of world champ but then later refused to believe anyone else was, and claimed professional chess was all rigged.
how you heroworship this man even in a chess communal sense is beyond me. you're purposefully ignoring everything he did in and after 1975, in attempt to glorify his image, when in fact his continued existence was an embarassment to the chess community.
He wasn't "a" hero. He was one of my heroes. That has nothing to do with you. He was hardly a hero to the world.
You guys just didn't get inspired by Fischer like I did. That's the issue here. I'm a chess player and I know that he was one of the most iconic and important figures in the history of the game. Whether he was the greatest, I don't know, but he's the reason a lot of people are playing it today, including some of the top players, like Kasparov.And yeah, feel free to flame me for taking up this stance or whatever (there's no need to do that by the way, Man-O-War). But that's what I think. And I'm not excusing the fact he was a lunatic. Because he was. I'm not trying to downplay it either, despite thinking that he wasn't actually harmful at any time. But I'm a chess player and I find it difficult.
well uh, first off, you don't play professionally, do you? it's like your, what, year long fascination with a game has led you to some greater understanding than myself or anyone else? everyone knows what it's like to respect someone for what they do but abhor them as human beings. Fischer made a lot of public statements, and quite a few that were denigrating professional chess. we can draw a parallel in the situation.
I just don't like the fact that I opened this topic, expecting you of all people to address his very famous comments, and then discover you purposefully glossed over them and then got incredibly defensive and harsh when I brought up the fact that he was a terrible human being, if a spectacular chess player. the second does not excuse the first and then that raises the question as to why you think it does to the degree that you'd say he's a personal hero.
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I'm not flaming you because you're defending a psychotic anti-Semite (well, maybe that is part of it), I'm flaming you because you're coming off as a huge elitist.
First of all, I'm not defending him for his anti-semitic statements. Everything that he's done after 1972, I disagree with. Maybe you'll remember the fact that I'm very much against any kind of discrimination, as I've shown time and again in this forum. Please don't try and paint me as though I disagree with you when you state that he was crazy. I've already said many times that I agree with you on that.
But the issue here, and it's hard to make that clear without coming off as an elitist, is that it might be very difficult to appreciate this man if you don't know his legacy. I've attempted to explain how much of an important person he was to the game of chess, but I guess you can't really describe that very easily. One thing you must know is that when I say that he was a big source of inspiration to me, I'm not trying to hide some of the terrible things that he did. I really don't know what went wrong there.
It's difficult to explain, but it's true. Chess players around the world are sad to hear this news. That's the way it is. And it might seem elitist, but it's simply a fact that non-chess players seem to be outside of that completely. I can't do anything about that.
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I can't believe you don't understand what I'm saying. Do honestly believe there is a point in arguing with a bigot? He is a fucking bigot! Shake your head in disbelief and call him out when you know... When you see him doing shit and try and reason with him all you might on a personal level. I didn't know he was in a position of influence at the time. I'm basically saying that if you see him insulting some then by all means go ahead and call him out. You can even call him out on what he has done in the past too from what you read, sure. We already established that he was a racist person, but guess what. A LOT OF GENIOUS TYPES had retarded flaws. Like say, Sigmund Freud? He was a sick as hell and we still read upon him and admire him in are educational systems don't we? There are obviously other examples too.
I don't know him personally and from what I heard, he sounds like a racist prick. But seriously, do you battle ever person who is racist or believes in unethical things? Wow, good luck on that buddy. What are you trying to prove here.
"Hey guys, this guy was a racist asshole so don't even DARE think he is cool or anything"
The man is dead and honestly, that's usually the time where you know... We forgive people OR turn the other cheek. Your pretty much spitting on his grave and saying fuck you man. Even if he said something about my race I would not call him on it now that he is dead. Why? Because nothing you say will change what he has already done.
Also, what I meant about the whole "Position of power" was that what he said verbablly probably did not translate into DEATHS OF JEWS. He was an OLD KOOK and your a fool to take what he said so personally IMO.
Just for your information, I don't give a crap about chess and I actually am relating more with you about how much of a bigot he was.
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PERSONAL EXAMPLE: one of my favorite wrestlers, as in cheesy WWE, was this guy named Chris Benoit. I loved this idiotic motherfucker. he lisped when he talked because he was missing most of his teeth, and he had this speech about how he'd take Kurt Angle down 50 "pertenth". his finishing move was to fall on someone and hit them with his head. he was ridiculous and Sredni and I used to seriously respect the guy for just being completely over the top and insane and funny. when Eddie Guerrero died, Chris Benoit just broke into tears on camera and couldn't even talk. as ridiculous as wrestling is, it was touching and I respected him for throwing away the image of a "tough guy" and just breaking down entirely. if I really really was into wrestling, he would have been a hero to me because he was seriously the perfect wrestler in my eyes.
and then Chris Benoit killed his wife and child and himself.
I do not view Chris Benoit with respect anymore.
like I said, we all know what it is like to respect someone for what they did, and abhor them for who they are. it doesn't lend itself to hero worship.
I can't believe you don't understand what I'm saying. Do honestly believe there is a point in arguing with a bigot? He is a fucking bigot! Shake your head in disbelief and call him out when you know... When you see him doing shit and try and reason with him all you might on a personal level. I didn't know he was in a position of influence at the time. I'm basically saying that if you see him insulting some then by all means go ahead and call him out.
I don't know him personally and from what I heard, he sounds like a racist prick. But seriously, do you battle ever person who is racist or believes in unethical things? Wow, good luck on that buddy. What are you trying to prove here.
"Hey guys, this guy was a racist asshole so don't even DARE think he is cool or anything"
The man is dead and honestly, that's usually the time where you know... We forgive people OR turn the other cheek. Your pretty much spitting on his grave and saying fuck you man. Even if he said something about my race I would not call him on it now that he is dead. Why? Because nothing you say will change what he has already done.
Also, what I meant about the whole "Position of power" was that what he said verbablly probably did not translate into DEATHS OF JEWS. He was an OLD KOOK and your a fool to take what he said so personally IMO.
Just for your information, I don't give a crap about chess and I actually am relating more with you about how much of a bigot he was.
the point isn't to insult Fischer, but to be realistic about him. he was a great chess player, and a terrible godawful human being, and I felt the OP didn't reflect that at all.
also Fischer started making anti-semitic comments in 1975, three years after he won his last championship. if he was a kook, he still was sharp enough to be a world champ. far more likely that despite his chess brilliance, he was a twisted bigot all along.
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Ok so we get the point?
I still don't see how that changes anything? What am I suppose to think about his death now? That he was racist so I won't even think about anything he accomplished in life?
Edit:
I see it wasn't mention in Dada's post. I guess that's what your refering to?
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I'm Indian buddy, I told you earlier all my friends were chess dorks (which is why I have zero interest in it). Russia made chess what it is, not Bobby Fischer. Fischer may have had an impact on the AMERICAN side but it's always been Russians and Europeans who have fostered growth and interest in chess.
Wrong.
He was a major source of inspiration to European chess players as well, and revitalized interest in the game for a wider audience. The 1972 world championship was huge, everywhere. Everybody was following the proceedings. Everybody read about the fact he simply refused to show up for his second match. Everybody knows how he complained about the audience, the cameras and the lighting and even the light reflection on the table they were playing at. My dad, who knew barely anything about chess at the time, was following the stories in the newspaper while he was on vacation. It had more than an impact on the American scene.
I find it incredibly suspect that you posted an OP without once mentioning the only thing Fischer's been doing for the past like twenty years. you can keep saying "A LOSS FOR THE CHESS WORLD" but you're purposefully ignoring the fact that after 1975 Fischer played about once.
First off, I said in my original post that he never played an official move again after 1972.
how you heroworship this man even in a chess communal sense is beyond me. you're purposefully ignoring everything he did in and after 1975, in attempt to glorify his image, when in fact his continued existence was an embarassment to the chess community.
Man, what are you even talking about?
I'm trying to explain how great of a chess player he was and how much of an inspiration he has been to the entire chess world.
I spent half a post just talking about some of the ridiculous things he did after 1972. And rightfully so, because people should know what a strange guy he was. Why are you accusing me of this kind of stuff?
well uh, first off, you don't play professionally, do you? it's like your, what, year long fascination with a game has led you to some greater understanding than myself or anyone else?
:words:
I've played chess since a long time (and briefly took lessons from Cor van Weigeren!), but it's been about half a year, give or take, since I started seriously practicing again.
But I'm not claiming to have some kind of grand understanding of the game. I'm not a professional player. But I've been studying it for some time and have a good understanding of how chess strategy works. And I've personally studied Bobby Fischer's games. I haven't just glanced over some analysis of his games by a grandmaster. I've put in the effort myself because I want to know how to play chess like he did.
Anyway there's really no need to get so personal about this, man. I don't know how many times I need to repeat that I disagree with basically everything he's done after his victory in 1972. All the things I omitted were basically because I don't see the point in highlighting every detail of the things he did, that would have made the post too long. Also because then I would have to explain everything (you expect me to get away with just saying "Bobby Fischer believes jews kill elephants for their penises"?)
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Ya probably should have mentioned that he was a bigot though Dada. I assumed that you at least mentioned it and Steel look like he was just calling you out on that fact.
Although I still disagree with him saying you shouldn't look up to him since that really isn't his decision to make.
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also Fischer started making anti-semitic comments in 1975, three years after he won his last championship. if he was a kook, he still was sharp enough to be a world champ. far more likely that despite his chess brilliance, he was a twisted bigot all along.
I think he started making them sooner than that. He accused the people who organized his simuls of stealing his part of the money. They were all jews to him. (Actually I'm not sure whether he made those statements before 1975 but I believe so.) He also once drew a large circle on a map around the city he was playing a tournament in and said "my mother is not allowed within this circle". His mother was Jewish but I'm not exactly sure what his relationship with her was at the end of her life.
I see it wasn't mention in Dada's post. I guess that's what your refering to?
I did mention it in my post!!
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Ya probably should have mentioned that he was a bigot though Dada.
Part of my post is exclusively about the crazy stuff he did after 1972. I even quoted him stating that he thinks all Jews should die and that America should be wiped off the map.
Just... read the post before you make accusations like that, please.
Maybe I could have devoted more space to it but besides the 1992 match and his statements about America and the Jews there weren't really that many notable things. He accused the Soviets of rigging the matches, yes, but beyond that I can't think of anything that's interesting enough to devote time to. If you want to know more about the disagreeable stuff he did, go look it up on Wikipedia or something. I decided to not detail every inch of his life. I'm not a reporter.
EDIT: also, interestingly, a while ago Doktormartini said that he wasn't going to vote for "some of the democrats" because "they're zionists". And I responded by saying "too bad Bobby Fischer isn't running for president, then". Man I don't get why I'm even trying to defend myself here when I shouldn't even have to.
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Funny how I read that but I thought Steel mention it.
MY APOLOGIES!!
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it's just a little fucked that in your own thoughts on the death you completely ignored Fischer's terrible terrible politics and insults against the chess community (frequently claiming that chess should be randomized so no one else could set up games against him and how no one else was World Champion, just BOBBY FISCHER WORLD CHAMP) in favor of just talking about what a great and influential guy he is. it's revisionistic and that's why I posted my shock that you'd ignore that in favor of his ability, considering his paranoia and politics had a great deal to do with his fame both in the chess world and out of it.
Anyway there's really no need to get so personal about this, man.
you kind of made it personal by saying YOU KNOW NOTHING OF CHESS FEH...FEH... you don't need to know chess to know people. the half a post in question is from the article or later when I and someone else brought it up.
I see it wasn't mention in Dada's post. I guess that's what your refering to?
yeah man. if I found some article and then only mentioned the parts I liked about the person in question, I'd expect any of you to call me a douchebag!
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it's just a little fucked that in your own thoughts on the death you completely ignored Fischer's terrible terrible politics and insults against the chess community (frequently claiming that chess should be randomized so no one else could set up games against him and how no one else was World Champion, just BOBBY FISCHER WORLD CHAMP) in favor of just talking about what a great and influential guy he is.
I didn't completely ignore it. I even quoted him saying that all Jews should die.
To be honest, I didn't think I'd need to try harder. Tell me something, don't you think it's a little ridiculous that because he was a racist, I'm obliged to inform you of every racist statement he made in his life, because if I don't, then obviously I'm hiding it in order to make him look better?
By the way, his suggestion about chess being randomized is Chess960 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess960), which randomizes the positions of the pieces. The game is essentially the same, but all opening theory is void. It's fun to play, too, and I'm kind of good at coming up with a way to do the opening.
you kind of made it personal by saying YOU KNOW NOTHING OF CHESS FEH...FEH... you don't need to know chess to know people.
Okay, I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry about that. But the truth is that he was more important than you make him out to be. Fischer was, plain simply, the most notable chess player in history. I think his influence is greater than that of, say, his successor, Karpov, or the one that broke all records, Kasparov.
EDIT: also I'm going to sleep now please don't let me wake up to three pages of "HAHA I'M GLAD HE'S DEAD" :(
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Dada, don't you understand? Saying anything bad about the jews automatically negates anything good you've ever done
What was this topic about anyway?
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Dada, don't you understand? Saying anything bad about the jews automatically negates anything good you've ever done
What was this topic about anyway?
This actually made me laugh, but on topic I kind of want to play Chess right now. I'm pretty good at it but the people that forever to make moves almost always make me want to quit the game.
Thank you Bobby, I may brush off my chess board sometime this week because of you.
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I mean more that your OPINION didn't mention it. instead you threw it in the news article restatement!
you gave the facts sure but then kind of didn't mention them when talking about what a person he was, and then claimed he was a personal hero; do you not see how that's kind of fucked!?
Dada, don't you understand? Saying anything bad about the jews automatically negates anything good you've ever done
What was this topic about anyway?
no one ever said that and honestly considering the amount of fakeposts you make regarding how you distrust jews you might not want to be defending Bobby Fischer.
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I mean more that your OPINION didn't mention it. instead you threw it in the news article restatement!
you gave the facts sure but then kind of didn't mention them when talking about what a person he was, and then claimed he was a personal hero; do you not see how that's kind of fucked!?
no one ever said that and honestly considering the amount of fakeposts you make regarding how you distrust jews you might not want to be defending Bobby Fischer.
Not with exactly those words but weren't you who said he was an "anti-semitic" monster who deserved to die alone and be ostracized? You kind of ignored his influence just because of that
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...no?
he had his success from his influence already. afterwards, all he did was denigrate the game, those in it, and make anti-semitic comments. he deserves to be ostracized and he was a monster.
he was a terrible human being and deserved to be as actively disliked as he was. that has nothing to do with his influence.
edit: unless you are talking about making chess more popular as a "good" action although aside from my comments saying it was almost always Russia that has popularized chess, Fischer himself did very little directly to promote chess unless it was to make comments about how bad chess tournaments were, and the reason he popularized chess was a result of his ability, not an exercise of it.
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...no?
he had his success from his influence already. afterwards, all he did was denigrate the game, those in it, and make anti-semitic comments. he deserves to be ostracized and he was a monster.
he was a terrible human being and deserved to be as actively disliked as he was. that has nothing to do with his influence.
I understand, but you say he was a monster like Timothy McVeigh could be called a monster? And his mother was jewish, making him a jew too. Was he a self hating antisemitic monster jew?
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I understand, but you say he was a monster like Timothy McVeigh could be called a monster? And his mother was jewish, making him a jew too. Was he a self hating antisemitic monster jew?
uh...timothy mcveigh killed people. there are degrees of monstrosity.
also yes he was a self hating jew and that fact is well known.
inri cheetos you are the weirdest troll ever.
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uh...timothy mcveigh killed people. there are degrees of monstrosity.
also yes he was a self hating jew and that fact is well known.
inri cheetos you are the weirdest troll ever.
See! Then he could make all the antisemitic comments he wanted, just like blacks can call other blacks "niggers". Unless of course it's also racist if they use the word "nigger" amongst themselves.
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dangerousned i hop you get cancer
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as a chess player he was a god, but as a person, he was worse than an insect.
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How awful for those poor chess players.
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You know, Inri has a SMALL point here. You mentioned timothy mcveigh kills people. You also said I've lost respect for Chris Benoit. That was like the worst comparison ever to make with Bobby Fischer
who hated jews but didn't particularly cross the line of actually killing people. You should stop using the word monster and save it for the big evil doers.
Tee Hee
I'll do everyone a favour and stop posting here.
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I'll do everyone a favour and stop posting here.
Why? You've got the best signature I've ever seen.
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You know, Inri has a SMALL point here. You mentioned timothy mcveigh kills people. You also said I've lost respect for Chris Benoit. That was like the worst comparison ever to make with Bobby Fischer
who hated jews but didn't particularly cross the line of actually killing people. You should stop using the word monster and save it for the big evil doers.
Tee Hee
I'll do everyone a favour and stop posting here.
oh for fuck's sake. spreading hate and doing hateful acts are both monstrous. there are fucking degrees (n...no...) but when you actively take a stance of hateful shit, you are a monster. that defines it for me anyways I GUESS WE DIFFER because I think someone actively full of hate is a monster instead of just the acts.
I never called Benoit a monster; he was mentally ill resulting from too many blows to the back of the head. however he did a terrible thing, and doesn't deserve hero worship despite past actions, which was the whole point of the analogy; people who do terrible things (like killing their family or spreading hate) tend to not be worthy of hero worship.
dangerousned i hop you get cancer
i have cancer :(
cancer of the post....
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FYI one of the greatest Norwegian writers of all time, and a winner of the nobel prize, was an active nazi during WW2 and even met Hitler in private while Norway was occupied (although the meeting went bad because he was disappointed in Hitler's lack of sophistication or something).
People still look up to him in the field of litterature. He is still an extremely important person in Norwegian litterature.
I don't think the views of single people are enough basis to judge people. There are a lot of fucked up people that achieve great things. If they have fucked up views, then they're not perfect, but there's a reason there's a saying that no one's perfect.
I mean, when I read that Fischer's mom is a Jew, I automatically assume that there's a lot more to him and his anti-semitism than can be written here. That's my natural conclusion. That he has a valid reason somehow for hating Jews. I honestly believe that. And I don't see why people share that view, that as long as people don't act out on their wicked principles, and seem to have some kind of underlying reason for those principles, then they should be judged by their actions and not their principles.
I mean shit, a lot of people drive Fords but Ford wasn't exactly a nice guy. I think Dada's 100% right on this matter; you can absolutely appreciate what a certain person does in a field and idolize him for his innovations and try to follow on his footsteps, no matter what his public opinion is. Or Jimi Hendrix for that matter...
Tbh, this whole topic is an onslaught of political correctness and trying to discredit a person that obviously earned his collars the hard way, because he generalizes a group based obviously on very bad experiences with said group. So what if he's crazy? So what if he lost it? That's not what earned him his fame and that's obviously not what side of him that impacted the world.
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Tbh, this whole topic is an onslaught of political correctness and trying to discredit a person that obviously earned his collars the hard way, because he generalizes a group based obviously on very bad experiences with said group. So what if he's crazy? So what if he lost it? That's not what earned him his fame and that's obviously not what side of him that impacted the world.
The guy's a terrible person. I don't think anyone's trying to discredit him from being an intelligent man and one of the world's best chess players. We're just pointing out that he harbored intense hatred of an entire group of people and was an arrogant jerk of a recluse his entire life which makes him a generally mean spirited nasty guy. On the note of Hitler, he was intelligent, business savvy, and brought an entire country out of a depression...
...the guy's still a sick sonuvabitch and while Germany can owe some of it's history to him the fact remains that you SHOULDN'T follow in his footsteps.
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hahaha lars you fucking nut.
I know omeg just said YOU DONT KNOW CHESS and I told him that it was arrogant but it's clear you don't know Bobby Fischer and haven't read anything at all (or you have a ridiculous definition of anti-semitism).
NO ONE doubts that Fischer was anti-semitic. notice that omeg never said anything of the sort either, and he's been defending Fischer. Fischer was CLEARLY antisemitic and saying it's just actions and not principles makes no sense when he's clearly stating his principles by saying shit like "Jews hate elephants because their trunks look uncircumsized". his fucking wikipedia article even puts him in the following categories:
Antisemitism | Holocaust deniers
no one doubts he's antisemitic and saying it's POLITICAL CORRECTNESS is just plain stupid. omeg at the least is arguing it's not that important; you're arguing it's OVEREXAGGERATED, which it clearly isn't when I quoted him saying the things he said.
hey look at this newslink for Bobby Fischer anti-semitism
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-/module/displaystory/story_id/10538/edition_id/201/format/html/displaystory.html
Ignoring the interviewer's questions about chess, Fischer also claimed that Jews had invented the Holocaust to make money. When the interviewer asked why he was saying such things, noting that Fischer is himself Jewish, the former chess champion said, "Shall we go to the toilets and prove it?"
yeah its just pc thug mentality lars are you retarded? seriously? I mean come on!
your examples are terrible because the question is why you'd view him as a HERO, not whether he was good at it. people drive Fords but few people idolize him. you can be GOOD at something and still be a terrible person not worthy of worship or even respect as a result (although you would respect them in that field).
I mean, when I read that Fischer's mom is a Jew, I automatically assume that there's a lot more to him and his anti-semitism than can be written here. That's my natural conclusion. That he has a valid reason somehow for hating Jews.
check this out: there's no such thing ever as a valid reason to hate a group of people based on a single non-personality based characteristic (being Jewish, black, gay, whatever) because that is what we call bigotry. funny how that works.
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FYI one of the greatest Norwegian writers of all time, and a winner of the nobel prize, was an active nazi during WW2 and even met Hitler in private while Norway was occupied (although the meeting went bad because he was disappointed in Hitler's lack of sophistication or something).
People still look up to him in the field of litterature. He is still an extremely important person in Norwegian litterature.
I don't think the views of single people are enough basis to judge people. There are a lot of fucked up people that achieve great things. If they have fucked up views, then they're not perfect, but there's a reason there's a saying that no one's perfect.
I mean, when I read that Fischer's mom is a Jew, I automatically assume that there's a lot more to him and his anti-semitism than can be written here. That's my natural conclusion. That he has a valid reason somehow for hating Jews. I honestly believe that. And I don't see why people share that view, that as long as people don't act out on their wicked principles, and seem to have some kind of underlying reason for those principles, then they should be judged by their actions and not their principles.
I mean shit, a lot of people drive Fords but Ford wasn't exactly a nice guy. I think Dada's 100% right on this matter; you can absolutely appreciate what a certain person does in a field and idolize him for his innovations and try to follow on his footsteps, no matter what his public opinion is. Or Jimi Hendrix for that matter...
Tbh, this whole topic is an onslaught of political correctness and trying to discredit a person that obviously earned his collars the hard way, because he generalizes a group based obviously on very bad experiences with said group. So what if he's crazy? So what if he lost it? That's not what earned him his fame and that's obviously not what side of him that impacted the world.
If the Nazis hadn't done the whole holocaust thing, we wouldn't be where we are today with medical stuff or something. But do we remember the Nazis for that? I don't think so.
You can't justify hatred with innovation, or even tone it down. Read some quotes from this guy about the Jews. He wanted them exterminated. Maybe it's just me, but fucking playing CHESS isn't that great when this guy spoke out against a race of people.
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I knew this dude was an anti-Semite but I had absolutely no idea his comments bordered on being ridiculously insane. I don't know if the elephant trunk comment was true or not but if I heard someone say that I'd slap them right on the spot.
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I hope this doesn't turn into a debate of how much of a monster he was.
You are right Dangerman, I'm not arguing that fact. I'm just trying to look at the bright side I guess since he croaked and all. I actually wanted to hear some more chess facts and so on and sort of hear about chess related things. I'm not even the biggest fan of chess but I rather hear about the game in a topic about one of the best chess players out there then how much of a bigot he is.
But you weren't wrong about pointing it out and elaborating more on it. I guess there is no one else to blame but Bobby Fischer himself for soiling his reputation.
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@Dada
"Most of the people I admire, they usually smell funny and don't get out much. It's true. Most of them are either dead or not feeling well." -Tom Waits
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what a horrible topic!!
I did think dada's wording in his original post was kind of weird and I probably would have said something about it if someone else hadn't, but seriously I have no idea where the hell you guys went with that
is it not ok to call him a CHESS HERO, to say this guy's my hero........in chess. guys did you know George Patton is often regarded as an American war hero?
My personal opinion is that no people could have sunk to the level of degradation [the Jews] have reached in the short space of four years.
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ok, I've been reading the post and jesus christ most of you guys are pretty stupid.
I'm with Dada.
His admiration is LIMITED to his chess ability and probably there's also an "atraction" in his contrasting geniality vs anti-semitic character.
The admiration has nothing to do with an attachment to Fischer's believes.
It's like you dig X-games, and this dude does the motherfucking most amazing stunt ever, but when you meet him in person he's the biggest fucking asshole around. YOU STILL DON'T STOP ADMIRING THE STUNT, unless you are so fucking emotionally attached that you block the amazement for the stunt because stupid fucking cunt did it.
I know shit about chess. But I know about sport, and Fischer is probably what Maradona is to football.
Maradona is a legend, and he cheated with his hand to make a goal at england (the goal is called THE HAND OF GOD). He cheated, he took drugs, he likes castro, che, etc, says a lot of stupid shit, but he's still a legend and everybody admires him.
Sure, Fischer is more rad in his mind. If I appreciate chess, I'd prolly admire him as well, now he's an anti-semite you say? I don't share that! Should I get pissed because of that? To say he's the worst of the worst?
Why should I? I don't give a damn about his believes, he's just an individual with loony believes and is not influential enough.
Now chess? At that yes he is the biggest influence
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yeah but patton is just like FUCK EVEROYNE I AHTE EVERYONE GO THROUGHT HE CENTER KILL KRAUTS its okay :)
I also can't honestly say I could say someone was a hero if he was completely just out of line socially. I could say I respected his chess, or even that I would want to learn for it, but to me the title of hero is not something I'd apply to someone I only respected for one characteristic or ability.
that and Fischer was an extraordinarily controversial figure in chess; he frequently denigrated the official games and said they were set up in advance, was kind of an ass to his fellow players, and engaged in BLACK MARKET CHESS GAMES. omeg should have realized he was opening a can of worms when he idolized the guy, even as a chess hero.
Che Guevara said a lot of things I agreed with but he also executed a lot of people and I can't rightfully idealize him either. it just strikes me as necessary that any topic on Fischer's death should make mention of his rather foul social history, and so while respecting him as a hero in chess is okay, omeg didn't exactly write that, which prompted my response.
unlike Macubex I also don't believe this topic would have engendered conversation about chess were we to never mention Fischer's anti-semitism, but I do think it raises a point that most people are arguing now; whether someone's political beliefs affect the perception of their work.
for me, it always has, and I guess that's why I am posting so much???????
also cancer of post
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+1 to the topics ruined by Steel.
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oh shut up. seriously, you think I ruined a topic because I pointed out the OP was purposefully ignoring blatantly anti-semitic quotes that everyone who was not interested in chess would most likely be interested to know?
rip anti-semite the jews cant get you in heaven..........STEEL RUINED YOUR TOPIC BY POINTING OUT YOU WERE KIND OF A DICK.
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If our tiny minds cannot begin to comprehend the impact of this "hero's" impact on the world, I fail to see why you would share this little tidbit with the good people of the general forums.
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man, ImmortalDreamer really does the best job of making you look awesome ned. I kind of wish he hated me
anyway I think patton's a lot worse than that but I got all my info on the matter from like the author of bloodlines or something so I don't know
edit: yeah he hated jews in particular, I'm not sure if he didn't keep his opinions to himself most of the time though. I think that one was in a letter to his wife
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not wanting to continue the derail but honestly Patton is pretty bad but he's also famous for like...hating everyone. he was an old war horse through and through and I guess hatred towards everyone is not a characteristic you can really hate in a war hero considering the job is murder.
also I don't know much on Patton's anti-semitism, but I'm not sure that was ever an issue of his (like, instead of a stray quote which is just irresponsible, if he was actively anti-semitic like Fischer). if it was, feel free to correct me, I just think Patton is hilarious because all his quotes are LETS KILL THOSE FAGGOT KRAUTS usually.
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Well ok I don't see the problem at all by dada saying he is one of his heroes because of what he meant to chess. I don't know shit about chess, but I do know what he's talking about about idols that on one hand does something amazing for something you really care about (be it music, other arts, some subject you're heavily into etc) and on the other hand is a terrible person.
No one is arguing he is a good person. It's just about looking past that and recognizing the impact and skill such a person has had. I don't see the point in posting HEY YO YOU DON'T SEE THIS BLACK/WHITE FUCK YOU HE WAS A NAZI etc. Fuck what do we do if people are allowed to admire someone that's obviously a bit nutty's innovation in a field!!
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I was actually completely unaware that this guy was as bad as he was. All I ever heard about him was that the was a great chess player. He wasn't as great a person as I expected him to be. When I heard some of the anti-semitic remarks he made, I was pretty shocked.
The elephant penis remark is very similar to something that I overheard when I was eating lunch at the local community college in my town.
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I don't see why the topic should be considered ruined. Does any kind of meaningful discussion ever come about in celebrity death topics? No. It's generally nothing more than a few canned "oh thats so sad :(" posts that nobody really gives a shit about. Granted the arguments are getting a little tiring by now but I still don't see how the direction this topic turned is any worse than pretty much any other topic.
I entirely agree with this post. Although Steel was (unsurprisingly) the first to mention Dada's awkward, if not incorrect, phrasing, I'm sure other people would have commented on Fischer's personality without Steel coming in here.
If anything, this topic has brought an interesting debate about the definition of a "hero" and the idea of having respect for contribution/talent vs. respect forpersonality/ morality.
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it's 1:29AM and just bought $50 worth of chess books with a gift card i had from christmas because of this topic. i've always wanted to be good at chess and I think I could be but i've never had any proper training or anything so hopefully i will like these books!
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I mean more that your OPINION didn't mention it. instead you threw it in the news article restatement!
you gave the facts sure but then kind of didn't mention them when talking about what a person he was, and then claimed he was a personal hero; do you not see how that's kind of fucked!?
Well I don't really see it that way. I did mention that Fischer mentioned how he feels America should be invaded and the Jews systematically killed, after all. Do I really need to "add some more" just to make it more obvious that he was a controversial person, or to stress the fact that I myself am not defending him for those things?
I know he was totally crazy. But to me, the interesting thing is his chess legacy. So, logically, that's what I'm going to spend most of my post on, because that's also something most people are likely to not understand. It's difficult to know about his contribution to chess if you aren't into chess, while it's easy to conclude that he was a crackpot.
You know, Inri has a SMALL point here. You mentioned timothy mcveigh kills people. You also said I've lost respect for Chris Benoit. That was like the worst comparison ever to make with Bobby Fischer
who hated jews but didn't particularly cross the line of actually killing people. You should stop using the word monster and save it for the big evil doers.
Yeah, I think this is important too. Fischer was an anti-semite, but he wasn't actually capable of anything beyond just spouting angry rants about them every once in a while.
Besides, the comparison to Chris Benoit is kind of awkward too. What did Benoit ever do besides just being an amusing wrestler, anyway? And Fischer never killed his wife and child. I think the two don't really compare.
@Dada
"Most of the people I admire, they usually smell funny and don't get out much. It's true. Most of them are either dead or not feeling well." -Tom Waits
word!
that and Fischer was an extraordinarily controversial figure in chess; he frequently denigrated the official games and said they were set up in advance, was kind of an ass to his fellow players, and engaged in BLACK MARKET CHESS GAMES. omeg should have realized he was opening a can of worms when he idolized the guy, even as a chess hero.
Well, Fischer was a controversial figure, period. Some people are. It didn't stop people from admiring him and his victory over the Soviet domination in 1972, even if he was a disagreeably smug guy. Nina Simone was a very difficult person too. The two don't really compare since Nina Simone was active in the Civil Rights Movement and Bobby Fischer was a racist, but it shows how one's personality can be overshadowed by his accomplishments.
The same is true for Fischer, and for that reason, the vast majority of chess players admire him. That's what I was hoping to show when I made my original post. I'm not just speaking for myself here, but also for figures like Garry Kasparov, Boris Spassky, Viswanathan Anand, Jan Timman, Susan Polgár, and many others, all of whom have expressed their regret yesterday.
And, you know, I realize that Fischer will be seen by most as that insane man who wished for the systematic execution of Jews and the fall of America. But that's not how I will remember him, and that's why I made this topic. To show that beyond the surface, there's someone who was a source of inspiration to millions. That's what matters to me.
(Also I don't think this topic is ruined, I think this topic is soaring. Like, do we really need to agree with each other all the time?)
If anything, this topic has brought an interesting debate about the definition of a "hero" and the idea of having respect for contribution/talent vs. respect forpersonality/ morality.
Yeah, this is an interesting point. There's a difference in opinion on that matter. That's also why I've said that he's a hero of mine, rather than a hero, period; I imagine he's no hero to most of the world, because most people won't know how to appreciate what he did for chess. I see him in a different way, though.
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Dada, from the way you wrote the original post I would never have known the depth of Fischer's repulsive beliefs and opinions.
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Dada, from the way you wrote the original post I would never have known the depth of Fischer's repulsive beliefs and opinions.
So, what am I supposed to do? Apologize because you didn't read closely enough?
My original post said this:
Nine years later' date=' right after the September 11 attacks, he was interviewed on a Philippine radio station and proclaimed "the White House and Pentagon have been attacked. This is all wonderful news." He called for the death of George W. Bush and insisted that the US government then "execute hundreds of thousands of American Jewish leaders", "arrest all the Jews", and "close all synagogues". Fischer had been a strong anti-semite for a long time, and had claimed often times that the source of his misfortunes was a Jewish conspiracy.[/quote']
I think I was being pretty clear about Fischer's personality. I didn't mention every single disagreeable thing that he said, sure, but why should I? You should get the point just by reading that.
If you didn't, then I'm sorry, but that's your problem, not mine.
EDIT: also, read the first part of the post I just made before yours. It addresses this already.
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i actually did! when i was reading the topic i thought "hmmm this bobby fisher guy was a lot better than just famous chess player"
then i read the anti-jew thing. the jews wanting to erradicate elephants was kinda a give away as to how bad he was.
IF THIS MAN SAVED MY LIFE HIS ANTI-SEMETISM AND ALL ROUND CRAZIES WOULDN'T REVOKE HIS HERO STATUS??
does anyone admire him for taking such a stance on his political beliefs? (i don't, just curious)
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I'll admire anyone who has the guts to take on a controversial opinion not voiced by
the marjority of the world. This doesn't make him right in any way, though. If his
beliefs make him a monster, the same thing could be said about christians, muslims
or even atheists. That we don't agree with someone's opinion does not necessarily
make him a monster. It is your actions that make you what you are, not your beliefs.
Other than that, I don't actually care the man. Sure, he could play a nice game of
chess, but that's not really super-wonderful in my book.
Too be honest, I never heard of the guy before right now.
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this is a pretty interesting debate, really. i've never had my convictions and better judgment challenged to the point where i REALLY REALLY LIKE something about someone but REALLY REALLY HATE another thing. usually it is pretty easy to make that distinction one way or another.
actually i guess i kinda have experienced that to some exceptionally minor extent, in that i am a sports fan and 99% of professional athletes are genuinely despicable/utterly worthless people in one way or another. it's to the point where i grow fairly attached to players as a spectator if they exhibit some semblance of positive individuality. anyhow, i am a fair-weather fan of the baltimore ravens, and the big shit for the ravens is Ray Lewis. it's impossible to enjoy watching the ravens and NOT enjoy watching ray lewis. the problem with this is that i STRONGLY DISLIKE ray lewis as a human being to the point where i honestly wonder if he has serious mental problems. yet, as i watch this guy play football(although much more when he was younger to be totally honest) i can't help but be pretty fascinated and as INTO IT as i can probably be by watching a silly football game on television. young ray lewis was as interesting a football player as i've ever seen.
i can kinda see the issue here where you find something about someone profoundly fascinating, despite the fact that there is a part of that person that is contemptible. if anything, sometimes that contemptibility will add to how profoundly interesting that person is. i obviously don't think that you can completely ignore those things or honestly take much exception to the fact that people can't look beyond those traits. i am talking more about pure fascination with an individual's accomplishments.
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Disney was anti-semetic... Hitler was a civil rights leader, and Bobby Fisher was the world's greatest Chess Player....
2 of three will be missed...
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Dangerousned, would he still be an antisemite if he hated syrians instead of jews?
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CHECKMATE!
EDIT: btw chainer, the point of this post is that I DID read the OP
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So, what am I supposed to do? Apologize because you didn't read closely enough?
My original post said this:
Dude, don't be dense, you know what I'm talking about. The rest of your post makes him out to be some kind of amazing man when clearly he was not. If Steel hadn't brought all the other shit he's said to attention, I would have assumed the Filipino radio incident you spoke of was a one-off and he was just a little nutty, and not the repulsive human being he seemed to be.
You wrote your original post as some sort of hero worship essay, dude. You can see how I got the WRONG IDEA about this guy from what you had written.
But yeah this is where I back out of this one!
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Congratulations. You failed to read the OP too Carius!
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If the Nazis hadn't done the whole holocaust thing, we wouldn't be where we are today with medical stuff or something. But do we remember the Nazis for that? I don't think so.
You can't justify hatred with innovation, or even tone it down. Read some quotes from this guy about the Jews. He wanted them exterminated. Maybe it's just me, but fucking playing CHESS isn't that great when this guy spoke out against a race of people.
tbh Lars is talking about Knut Hamsun who was fucking crazy same as fischer
i am proposing a link between crazies and anti semitism
ps: read hunger
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also the allegations of match fixing were later proven to be true in a lot of cases
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Dude, don't be dense, you know what I'm talking about. The rest of your post makes him out to be some kind of amazing man when clearly he was not.
But he was!
If Steel hadn't brought all the other shit he's said to attention, I would have assumed the Filipino radio incident you spoke of was a one-off and he was just a little nutty, and not the repulsive human being he seemed to be.
You consider someone who calls up a radio station right after September 11 and then, while on-air, states he wants America to apologize to the muslim world and then have all Jews systematically exterminated to only be "a little nutty"?
What's wrong with you?
And that's part of what makes this man so incredibly interesting. Like Hundley says, you can be pretty fascinated by someone like that. Why not? People have been examining every last detail of the lives of the various dictators that the world has known, too. (I'm making this comparison because apparently others felt the need to do it.) Even if you don't know anything about chess, you might find that there's something very intriguing about a man who goes to beat the entire chess world on his own, at his leisure, and then immediately retires because the world wasn't interesting to him after that. There's something very thought-provoking about the fact that this same man, who himself is of Jewish descent, goes on to blame his race for all the problems in the world. It becomes even more ridiculous when you learn that he violated a UN embargo for the purpose of playing a highly publicized chess match, and had his photo taken by the international press as he spit on an official order telling him to cancel the match.
I don't know about you, but those are all reasons for me to find him massively interesting. Despite the fact he was a lunatic. Because he was a lunatic. And as a chess player, he was ruthless. He had a fierce and imaginative style. He brought chess to the attention of a much wider audience than ever before, and is credited by Kasparov as having invented the concept of modern professional chess play.
It's pretty clear that his legacy is of no meaning to you, but I'm not you. To me, he was an incredible player who I looked up to a lot. And that's because I know I'll never play chess as well as he could.
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Okay, dude, I respect your view of the man. I wasn't trying to tell you that you can or can't appreciate what he did, but I just find it a little odd I guess. Anyway, more power to ya.
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It is possible to respect or find interest in certain aspects of other individuals without having to embrace the entire individual as some sort of role model.
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It is possible to respect or find interest in certain aspects of other individuals without having to embrace the entire individual as some sort of role model.
This pretty much explains the entire topic.
After all, I don't see how this entire debate was brought up, of course he was an antisemitic, but he was highlighted as a wonderful chess player, and nothing else. I can't see why it's so hard to grasp that you don't have to like every thing about a person.
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Well, the premise of this debate was spurred by the fact people thought I was trying to "hide" the fact he was anti-semitic. Which is certainly not what I did. Though I didn't discuss every last detail, I did so because I felt it was unnecessary and irrelevant to what I was trying to tell you. So that's why.
I was kind of hoping that there'd be some other chess enthusiast in here who'd be willing to talk about Fischer's games with me.