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General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: Mateui on April 08, 2008, 07:28:28 pm

Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Mateui on April 08, 2008, 07:28:28 pm
Please read the following about internet "traffic shaping" if you are not aware of the term and what it means to you as an internet user.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080407/Telecom_companies_080407/20080407?hub=Canada&s_name=

What do you think about internet service providers examining the types of files you are downloading and then cutting your speed down? Is this within their rights? What do you think about the idea of being charged based on your bandwidth usage instead of paying a flat monthly fee?
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Grogrog on April 08, 2008, 07:43:28 pm
Yeah, this stuff really isn't cool, as I work for an internet company in Ontario who is obviously directly affected by this.

Stuff like packet shaping, the throttling that they are doing, most companies, at least in Canada have used them for a while, and it isn't all THAT serious, so I don't mind so much. And they aren't paying for bandwidth, they are paying for bandwidth over usage, which is fair. If you are given 95 gigs a month, and you use more than that, why should they not bill you?

The main thing that bothers me is the fact that there is such a big monopoly over internet, at least in Ontario, I don't know situations elsewhere, that it's really easy to screw people over. Before, in Ontario, if you wanted unlimited internet, you could go with TekSavvy, and you would be good. But now what Bell is doing is limiting them as well. The consumer now has very little control over their options. It's just all very frustrating, and a path heading in the wrong direction.
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Cardinal Ximenez on April 08, 2008, 08:02:32 pm
This is why granting monopolies to utilities is a bad idea.
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Bondo on April 08, 2008, 09:45:19 pm
Before I got DSL through AT&T here in California, I had Clearwire. http://www.clearwire.com/

It was nice.  You had a black box, you plugged it into your computer (Or a router.) and POOF.  You were online.  It advertised a down speed of up to 1.5mb and an up of about 500kb.  It fluctuated quite a bit, but it was fast enough that I was happy...

Until I tried to download a torrent.

ALL my torrents downloaded at 1 kbps.  And sometimes they wouldn't download at all for a long time.  When I called tech support, they said "Sorry.  Clearwire doesn't support P2P."

This made me mad.  I did some research, and discovered that this problem was universal on a global scale, with some users even reporting usage breaking speed fluctuations during normal browsing even.  Not only was P2P completely blocked, but so was VOIP.  The thing is, Clearwire offers their own VOIP service!  Which means that they are effectively shutting out all competition.  Even gaming was gimped.  Users would experience latencies of up to 900!!

I looked through their terms of service, and man is it ugly.  Not only does Clearwire state that they will change the speed and monitor traffic however they want, and there's nothing you can do about it.  But they also state that any user, or former user of Clearwire may not enact a class action suit, or even a private suit against them.  If their terms of service were to hold up in court, Clearwire pretty much has full immunity to any user or former user legally or otherwise.

I tried to claim that when they didn't inform me of the restrictions, they effectively broke their own terms of service, and thus I should be allowed to cancel without a cancellation fee.  They didn't budge, so I put a stop payment on the company level and returned their equipment.  Somehow, I don't know how!  They still managed to debit 220usd from my account for canceling.

So if you're thinking of getting Clearwire, don't, at any cost.

Edit:
Looks like there is an attempt at a class action suit against them: http://clearwireclassaction.com/
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Sarah on April 08, 2008, 10:19:57 pm
That's way too long and I doubt I'd understand what's going on anyway. Can someone summarise the article?
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Mateui on April 08, 2008, 10:29:09 pm
That's way too long and I doubt I'd understand what's going on anyway. Can someone summarise the article?
Basically, Bell (a popular ISP in Ontario, Canada) is using Deep Packet Inspection, or DPI, to examine the types of data moving across the Internet. It then restricts the movements of certain types of data -- primarily large files such as movies or music over peer-to-peer networks. They typically do this between 4 p.m. to 2 a.m., drastically cutting speeds to people downloading large files, or those using VOIP or VPNs, saying that this is to prevent congestion for normal, everyday users. Bell also has a near monopoly on internet service in the area, and so there's not much of an alternative available for people. Bell is advertising a certain speed to consumers but then is delivering way less - and this is ok since they advertise "up to _kbps".   
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Sarah on April 08, 2008, 10:34:37 pm
Oh, I see. Well, I'm a Rogers user (I don't think Bell is really all that popular in this area) so I guess this doesn't effect me at all, but that's pretty gay on their part.
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Grogrog on April 08, 2008, 10:51:08 pm
I don't believe it works by capping large files, what they do is called packet shaping. They check what kind of packets you are sending, and if it is a P2P packet, or an encrypted packet, it gets throttled, aka at best, decent speeds, at worse, 0kb/s. The thing is, VOIP packets are sometimes picked up, as are VPN packets. So their bullshit affects things that aren't related to massive amounts of downloading, and even affect OTHER services they sell.. Rogers also does this, although it isn't horrible most of the time.
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Mince Wobley on April 08, 2008, 11:12:19 pm
Here people complain about traffic shaping because it prevents them from using their 1mbps connections to download massive amounts of illegal pirated things and I don't care because I don't have a super-fast internet and if I had it I'd use it to watch youtube videos and play battlefield 2142 not to download ILLEGAL things

But I'm curious to know if it really costs them money to maintain all the traffic p2p generates or do they just have to pay for the power they use and charge for bandwidth just to increase their profits?
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Terin on April 09, 2008, 02:13:25 am
In my opinion, you should get what you pay for, no matter how you use it.  If you decide to download illegal torrents, then you should be penalized by whoever or whatever agency looks for that.  Or if the ISP can tell you're downloading something illegal, then maybe block that.  But there are a lot of LEGAL torrents.  It's hard to determine which is which sometimes, at least from an ISP standpoint, I'd imagine.

--Terin
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: goat on April 12, 2008, 05:46:10 am
P2P accounts for something like 1/3 of all internet traffic, so it's no surprise they're trying to minimalize the bandwidth hit. Encrypting your packets will help avoid a lot of the shaping algorithms out there, but its only encrypted if both sides have it enabled, otherwise you'll just default to legacy connection. So the more people know about it, the more useful it becomes.
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Shinan on April 12, 2008, 07:32:40 am
As far as I'm aware it's more cost-effective to increase bandwith than it is to throttle it. Though I know nothing of the technical bits and have only listened to free culture fanatics.
Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: Bondo on April 12, 2008, 07:59:22 am
This wouldn't affect Canadians, but it's still interesting nonetheless.  It's Barack Obama's "Open Internet" plan.

Title: Internet "Traffic Shaping"
Post by: dada on April 12, 2008, 08:52:17 am
This wouldn't affect Canadians, but it's still interesting nonetheless.  It's Barack Obama's "Open Internet" plan.

Yes, and he's right. A strong federal support for network neutrality is imperative if we want to keep this sort of stuff from happening. We should consider outselves blessed with how open the internet currently is; without openness, competitiveness will be stifled, and the strongest monopoly will win over the strongest product. Also, note that almost all of the opposition for network neutrality comes from large telecom companies or people involved in them; among the proponents are companies such as Google and Yahoo and individuals like Tim Berners-Lee.

Read Wikipedia on network neutrality (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Network_neutrality) for more information.