Gaming World Forums
Archives => GW Blog => Community Content => Blog: Community => Topic started by: Feldschlacht IV on April 20, 2008, 12:04:09 am
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Hey GWers, it's Feldschlacht IV, or as most of you know me, Mog. This is my first article in my tenure as one of G&Ds resident Staffers, so I hope you guys read this and tell me what you think.
Today I'd like to talk about an issue that's been more or less dominating the conversations at GW for the past few days, bridging the gap beween Game and Demo and well, the rest of GW. As most of you know, GamingWorld for the past many years was defined by it's game making scene, particularly being the de facto capital of RPG Maker and even today, the Game and Demo forum, dedicated to such, remains one of the largest and active subforums on the site.
But there's trouble in this 'paradise'. An astute member of the community who's been here long enough won't take long to notice that the Game and Demo forums and the rest of the Gaming World community are almost completely isolated from one another. 'Regulars' in Game and Demo and 'Regulars' on the rest of the site are hardly ever the same people, major events are rarely noticed by members of the opposite forums, and members who are mutually active on both Game and Demo and GW as a whole are an increasing rarity. What caused this split in what could formerly be called sister cities in GW?
Many reasons, let me tell you. One reason being that many GWers have moved on or lost interest in gamemaking, making the G&D forum irrelevant to their interests. Another oft mentioned reason is that many G&Ders feel they don't or may not fit in with the rest of GW. And finally, the most talked about and most recently discussed reason is that G&Ders are more or less self contained, with little interest or awareness of what's happening outside their walls. It's really too bad that all of those proposed reasons are grounded in truth, but that's the reality. The question is, what to do about it? Well, I have a few proposals for both GWers and G&Ders.
Want people to get into your game? Get into the community.
If you're relatively new here and your first intended stop is G&D, I highly encourage you to get some activity on the forums under your belt before you showcase your game. A perceptive poster will notice that well known members usually get more posts, views, and overall recognition for their projects than newer or entirely unknown members. Sometimes many excellent games by newcomers slip under the cracks because of this, but it's a sad truth. A good measure to circumvent that is to spread yourself around the forums and community before you let us know what you're cooking up. GW has a particularly wide range of topics and interests with many forums to represent it, and a few minutes of looking around will almost assure you that at least two or three topics might pique your interest. Give it a try. Besides, it's far easier for anyone to go "Hey, it's ___'s game! I'll check it out" to someone who's made an effort to involve himself than a guy with zero to five posts, no?
Enlist the talent of GWs various artists and musicians.
GamingWorld has some of the most talented people I've ever met. Everyone from pixel artists, guitarists, writers, and painters are under the same roof here. You'd think there would be plenty of collaboration for artists and gamemakers to produce a lot of good work, but alas, it doesn't usually happen, and it's a pretty big shame. Start something! Whether you're an artist or a game maker, stick your heads in the opposing forum write a PM, or make a topic and get something together. It's rare that GW really collaborates work between artists and gamemakers, but when it does happen it's seriously amazing. Artists, throw yourself out there to make original music, graphics, or even write a kickass storyline for some of our resident gamemakers. Gamemakers promote their games, and artists promote their art, and it's a win win situation.
Not into making games anymore? But you still play them, right?
A prime reason for the lack of communication between G&D and GW is difference of interests; many GWers simply don't make games anymore. Which is well and good, but that's no reason not to play them, right? Many excellent games from adventure games, platformers, shooters, and yes, even RPGs made by G&Ders fly under the radar of the mainstream GW, and it definitely doesn't have to be the case! I know it's hard to sift through what you don't want to play to get to the needle under the proverbial haystack, but there's no reason not to check out games such as Ad Nauseam 2 (http://www.gamingw.net/forums/index.php?topic=70985.0), or U.S.G. ~A New Beginning~ (http://www.gamingw.net/forums/index.php?topic=4961.00). Not only does it get the makers of great games the recognition they can certainly use, but it encourages more and better highly quality games by said makers. And besides, you get a free game out of the deal.
Those are just three ways to mend that burnt bridge between GW and G&D. While they are by no means a quick fix to an issue that's been discussed for quite some time now, examples like the above are one of the few solutions that help both GW and Game and Demo mutually. Despite what seems evident, both sides of the equation are necessary and paramount to GamingWorld. Game and Demo and the community within are the foundation that GW was built on and still resides on today, and the GamingWorld general members, the "rest of them", is what keeps GW thriving on the community front. There can be nothing but good that will come out of these two entities mixing and molding with each other, and what's there for either party to lose? So whether your stomping grounds are Game and Demo or the rest of Gaming World, I implore you to do your part in bridging that gap.
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I'd like to be the first to open my arms to the G&Ders....
Come, children. Come and post... and enjoy yourself. We love you. Big... small... smart... dumb...
We love you all.
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in be4 the shitstorm
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I'd like to be the first to open my arms to the G&Ders....
Come, children. Come and post... and enjoy yourself. We love you. Big... small... smart... dumb...
We love you all.
especially the dumb.
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Now if only they would actually read this...
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You are a good man, Mog. Great article!
*reaches his hand out to G&D*
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Now if only they would actually read this...
Yeah, I hope new people at least take a look at this. Hopefully artists on the site will be able to work on some more games, as in my experience it's always turned out well.
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that was a good article, and hopefully they DO read this yeah
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they aren't going to read this btw.
unless WIP or TFT finds it and then sends it out to all their friends.
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I thought it was a good article. Not sure if I agree to accept that members should be well known in order to get their game well recieved though. I think this is something that should be sorted out...
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Not sure if I agree to accept that members should be well known in order to get their game well recieved though.
No, this shouldn't be the case, but it's usually the reality; better known members usually get attention on their work. I'm not saying that you should wait until you get 1000 posts or anything like that, but showing your face to the community before posting your game wouldn't do any harm.
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Great article. It would be good if something actually motivates everyone to collaborate, there are just most people who agree but just don't make an action towards it.
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You could always post a link to it in G and D.
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lets bridge this gap
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I like the part about collaboration. The diversity of creative people here is the strongest asset the site has. We could be making super rad games if people worked together more often. :cool:
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I've got my tools let's build this thing.
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You know what? I've just been inspired. I'm making what i think has the potential to become a good (good looking at least) game with 100% custom graphics but the music is stolen from other games. Maybe i will stop being a G&D biggot... Maybe i will be reach out and look for someone who might have the musical talent I desire. and maybe i will decide to become more of a "C" type of forum troll. Nice speech. Be well GWers.
EDIT: Oh yeah, and maybe I'll look for some good programmers to make some cbs etc. Or maybe I'm overestimating the quality of my own work... I don't know... I'm just so sheltered. I'm going to have to take this one baby step at a time. I'm not being sarcastic by the way.
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Then let's have some kind of community project to start this collaboration motion..
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How about that RMXP/VX alternative RTP someone mentioned earlier? If it was done well and had GW's name on it then it is likely to pull people here.... if there was actually a resources area to pull people to.
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we gotta get this message out there
and save gw
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You know what? I've just been inspired. I'm making what i think has the potential to become a good (good looking at least) game with 100% custom graphics but the music is stolen from other games. Maybe i will stop being a G&D biggot... Maybe i will be reach out and look for someone who might have the musical talent I desire. and maybe i will decide to become more of a "C" type of forum troll. Nice speech. Be well GWers.
This is good to hear - there are a lot of good composers on here. Nothing is worse than going into a custom game and hearing CHRONOTRIGGER.MIDI or XENOSAGA.MP3 to snap you out of any enjoyment.
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we gotta get this message out there
and save gw
you know mog didn't handle this the best way but its not like the sentiment is particularly stupid.
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let's elaborate on some collaborations here
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i think gw needs a national anthem to raise our morale and solidify us as a unit
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we should. the anthem could solidify us as a unit..
we could be known as the gamingw unit.. or for short...
g-unit
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That is a very astute observation The Magi! Hopefully by being positive and trying our best we will attract such noble spirits to our cause once more. :)
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This is nice and all but I don't see why do you people care so much about the other gwers. If they only want to visit g&d then let them, most of the users are somewhat adults now so they can decide whether they would fit in the rest of gw or not. I am one of those g&d guys, but I read the entire forum and post every now and then in general or something but it's just not cool. Every time I post there there are like 4-5 different users who tell me that I am a horrible human being, the worst person on Earth and that I should castrate myself for the sake of mankind's future. This might be true, I probably have the morals of a dick, but telling me this every time isn't exactly helping the conversation!
So, I don't know, maybe if you guys stop internet-humiliating people who aren't part of your 10-15 man gw VIP club they would have more interest in joining you? (I'm not talking about myself now, I see this every time with new users )
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Every time I post there there are like 4-5 different users who tell me that I am a horrible human being, the worst person on Earth and that I should castrate myself for the sake of mankind's future. This might be true, I probably have the morals of a dick, but telling me this every time isn't exactly helping the conversation!
So, I don't know, maybe if you guys stop internet-humiliating people who aren't part of your 10-15 man gw VIP club they would have more interest in joining you? (I'm not talking about myself now, I see this every time with new users )
I think it really helps if you think first about what you are saying, if people are going to take it as ridiculously offensive or ridiculously stupid then this is kinda the way someone is going to react on the internet and real life. Also if you've done something really dumb in the past it's hard to live down but I'm sure as long as your not a total douche people respect you with time. (I personally dont know anything about your posting so I dont really know specificially whats the deal with you.)
I admit some members can be really harsh at times but it doesn't necessarily have anything to do with you being in some "gw vip club" NOR does it have anything to do with members being new, the reason they are often "internet-humiliated" in my opinion is because they are usually really dumb and are about 13 years old, like anime, final fantasy seven and don't know shit but yeah we want new members and g and d people to branch out so I'm sure GW will try to be more tolerant as long as people aren't ACTUAL morons.
Also a common phrase "Harden the fuck up" also comes to mind. I got flamed when I was new cause I said some really dumb shit and its kinda normal.
now that was long winded..
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Hey uh, how about you take your passive-aggressive sarcastic little dickheaded :)))) comments and keep them on that circle-jerk of an IRC channel you guys have going instead of trying to shit up a topic made by someone who, unlike most/all of you, is actually trying to do ANYTHING AT ALL to remedy the current situation besides aimlessly complaining? Thanks.
your pal,
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Pardon my cynicism, but this seems like wishful thinking to me.
I rarely post here, but every few days I'll scan the boards. Chances are there's a topic or two that'll take my fancy. As an avid reader of the forum, I wholeheartedly agree that there is an abundance of talent in these parts that sadly isn't being utilised.
However...
Game-making is tough; you've got to work at it. And I'm afraid to say that few people appear to have the determination to see it through to the end. Either that, or they trip up on their own far-fetched ambitions before they even get started. Yes, it would be great if we got some collaborations going, but it's a long and painful process. Taking external factors into account (work, college, relationships, etc...), it's very difficult to remain focused on a project that, in most cases, will not bear fruit.
That's why my forthcoming project is going commercial. I finish University in two months; I intend to jump straight onto the career ladder as soon as I'm done; I doubt there will be much time for this "hobby" that I was once able to devote so much attention to five years ago. I need to be assured that my hard work will account for something. The prospect of making a profit is my primary incentive. Not the e-fame, not the "thrill of the chase", but the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.
The question that I feel needs to be addressed is:
What compells an individual to commit to such a colossal undertaking?[/color][/center]
For me it's the money. That's not to say that I won't enjoy the development process, but this goal ensures that I remain committed to completing the project.
If the reason you design games is to "pass the time" (as seems to be the mentality of this community's majority), chances are that you won't have the drive to finish.
In fact I'd we willing to write a full article on "motivation" for the blog if there's a call for it.
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What about sharing something you've worked really hard to create with other people?
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Not into making games anymore? But you still play them, right?
Yes, ones made by professional developers.
99/100 amateur games are so. fucking. bad.
I mean a lot of professional games are bad too but the ratio is of playable to laughable is a little better.
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I don't think that is actually true. Most finished amateur games aren't really that bad at all.
Id even say that most are pretty good. I think people get the feeling that most rpgs made here are bad because they remember their own first attempts at RPGs, and how much they sucked (everyone's first attempt does), and seeing so many projects that never get finished and look like they'd suck anyways...
But truth is, usually when a project does get finished, its NOT the author's "first attempt" at all anymore. Usually the author started half a dozen projects before this one, just like you did ages ago. And this one is that one game he thought was good enough to finish up, and he wants people to play it. But sadly, no one does, because they all assume he just started out, and that the game will blow ass.
I admit I have a very hard time getting myself to play any game here thats a RPG, because I tend to assume they'll have some horribly awkward dialogue and boring button mashing battles and horribly stereotypical story... Even though I know that I am most probably wrong about most of them.
Also the G&D lingo sort of irritates me, you know like, CBS and CMS and stuff. It makes these "FEATURE LISTS" seem very silly, as if a game's enjoyability depended on whether or not the menus are different.
Another problem might be the very nature of RPGs, and how it doesn't fit the sheer amount of them submitted.
I mean, RPGs tend to be games that are pretty long and take a bit of immersion. And there are so much of them sent. If people focused on more arcade-ey games that can be enjoyed in a shorter time frame, it would be so much better. Naturally, we cant just like manipulate the population to gear themselves away from RPGs, that would be silly. But still, I think its part of the problem of why lots of people here dont feel interested in the G&D forum.
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hold on one sec, I'm going to delete some posts.
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Hey uh, how about you take your passive-aggressive sarcastic little dickheaded ))) comments and keep them on that circle-jerk of an IRC channel you guys have going instead of trying to shit up a topic made by someone who, unlike most/all of you, is actually trying to do ANYTHING AT ALL to remedy the current situation besides aimlessly complaining? Thanks.
yeah I deleted all these posts. you guys are pretty patently awful and everyone knows by now that the majority of you sit around #G&D chortling while you huff a sack of cheetos. I know you're going to say THOSE WERE SERIOUS POSTS GUY but guess what, considering how often you guys like to troll people in these kinds of topics, especially Mog, you're full of shit anyways!
I know I'm running the risk of G&Ders getting offended but I seriously don't want to hear from some of you when all you have ever contributed is :) im just making fun of mog dont mind me because it got old a while ago. you're not funny and as far as INTERNET goes (meaning a very low bar to begin with), you're wholely irrelevant.
none of the above applies to those who gave honest criticism, you guys are doing fine.
now the topic is being unlocked lets see if you can get along.
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Well, it's a nice article. The idea is good anyway, but I'm not sure how effective a wall of text is in encouraging people to do the things you suggest. Still better than doing nothing about it though, so you get points for that.
Hint: people like pictures in blog posts
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Yeah, it's a fine article Mog, but for people to take more interest, you should do as RPG suggested and upload some screenshots of the games you posted.
That's why people go into ADVERTs... for the screenshots.
Another thing I'd like to suggest is to post another game that isn't a scrolling spaceship shooter (or whatever you call them) like Ad Nauseum and U.S.G., which are both great, for the record. Here are some others I can suggest to you, Mog:
Final Fantasy High (http://www.gamingw.net/forums/index.php?topic=5337.0) - This looks interesting and you should have at least one RPG up there, I think. A lot of people like RPG's.
Yume Nikki (http://www.gamingw.net/forums/index.php?topic=5260.0) - This game already seems to have a small following.
World of Danger (http://www.gamingw.net/forums/index.php?topic=5371.0) - Looks epic... 700MB, though. Not for me!
Renewtion (http://www.gamingw.net/forums/index.php?topic=5389.0) - G..G...GGZ!
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This is a very noble effort, but I feel that you need to get your hands dirtier and dig deeper to address the real issues that must bridge the gap.
People need to know not only how, but why the community must become a stronger united force... Not everybody is willing to work with people they disagree with, and that has been the cause of many underlying disputes and arguments among forum members. Being involved in the community is a difficult task for people that are too concerned with posting their games; I feel this article needs to more strongly appeal to the emotions of said members instead of simply giving them a set of commands to follow to find their community drive.
Overall this article is a good start that explains some reasons for communication breakdown, however it still tries to sneak around the bigger issues to avoid being controversial.
Hint: people like pictures in blog posts
I don't really see how pictures would be necessary. What, should we be asking mog for graphic statistics and pie charts? :fogethuh:
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I hope someone gets a great idea so people would wholeheartedly participate in community cocllabs
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Renewtion (http://www.gamingw.net/forums/index.php?topic=5389.0) - G..G...GGZ!
Y'know, I had to look over the topic to find out what you were on about. GGZ's harmless these days, though. There's rarely an update on the main page, and the forum's closed-off to outsiders.
I hope someone gets a great idea so people would wholeheartedly participate in community cocllabs
As I said, I'm skeptical.
If there's not a solid enough incentive to cooperate, the whole operation will fall apart very quickly. If one person doesn't agree with an idea that the rest of the group are agreed on, they're bound to ask themselves questions like:
"What am I getting out of this?"
"Why flock with the herd when I can just as easily make my own game?"
Now this incentive needn't come printed on Cotton Paper. It could be something as simple as having the honour to work with a highly respected artist in the community. I'm sure a large majority of GW's game-makers would give an arm and a leg to collaborate with such prestigious and talented folk as Doppleganger and DE.
But are they really going to want to invest in a developer with a long track record of cancelled projects, when they could be getting paid for their work elsewhere? We need to first discover everyone's 'Terms and Conditions', as it were. Although I'm something of a lone wolf when it comes to my creative flirtations, I would most certainly jump at the chance to work with the aforementioned artists.
Basically, I need to see it before I can believe it. That's just me, though.
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Y'know, I had to look over the topic to find out what you were on about. GGZ's harmless these days, though. There's rarely an update on the main page, and the forum's closed-off to outsiders.
well back in the day they tried to sue GW and called up people's schools and said YOU ARE FLAMING US, so it's still a lol thing with us.
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Wishmoo called Bart's MOM and complained about how mean he was.
That's why GGZ is so fucking funny and always will be.
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that which shall not be named called Bart's MOM and complained about how mean he was.
That's why GGZ is so fucking funny and always will be.
really? i knew she was pretty lame about that kind of stuff, and i remember all of the articles/interviewers with lawyers abotu COPYRIGHTS and ARTIST'S RIGHTS despite never mentioning that the material in question was stolen from games... but that is pretty unbelievable.
anyway i feel like part of the problem that isn't being discussed right now is that g+w is pretty stagnant and doesn't seem to get many new devs, instead the same guys post and random people come in to advertise then leave. an influx of new users with a project hoster and/or main site could produce some more talent, and from there people would start migrating to other forums.
actually, maybe this is being discussed, i've only skimmed. my apologies if so.
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After reading the last few GWLog articles it's obvious the staffers are actively trying to stimulate the community, and that's great to see! I can only hope that with a series of little nudges, parts of the community will venture forth, make an attempt themselves and cause a cascade effect as a result. It may be wishful thinking, but at least this is a helluva lot better than everyone sitting on their thumbs and spinning! :laugh:
Collaboration and healthy competition are great and can only help push the community forward. Since the time I left gamingw to my return, A LOT of really talented people have joined the forums and others have developed their skills greatly. I'd love to see some collab action showing what's what and the power of extending/accepting a hand! Even my friends and I will most likely call on some of the talented regulars in due time and hope to get some great work done.
I also really liked the idea that Blitzen had when he made his "Understanding Fun Game Design" topic. If we want better quality games from those just starting out, more experienced people can help others develop their understanding of some of the more abstract skills of design.
Also, the Topics of the Week article is a cool idea too, mayhap a topic will pique an users interest and get them to post somewhere they usually wouldn't.
User base GO!