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General Category => Technology and Programming => Topic started by: goat on April 12, 2008, 09:16:46 pm

Title: Computer building help
Post by: goat on April 12, 2008, 09:16:46 pm
HELP, I AM BUILDING A COMPUTER!(https://legacy.gamingw.net/etc/www.gamingw.net/forums/Smileys/default/throw4jw.gif)

Building your own PC is not only cheaper than buying one pre-made, but it allows you much more customization.
You may be replacing and older system, or perhaps just want to upgrade your current one. As complex as computers are, the assembly of their parts is far easier than most people think. Most everything has a slot, plug, or connector that pops right into place. You'll only need a screwdriver, and you're set. Just be sure to keep yourself grounded by touching a moderately sized metal object before handling the PC components themselves. Always carry circuit boards, hard drives, and processors/ram by their edges (not the edges with connectors on them obviously).

First of all, have a clear plan of what kind of system/upgrades you're looking for by prioritizing what applications you'll mostly be using. If you're just going to be browsing the web, running spreadsheet programs, watching DVD movies and playing mp3s, you won't need too powerful a system. That's not to say you wouldn't benefit from having a top of the line system, you just would not benefit from it as much as if you were heavily into cad/video/3d editing, or playing the latest games.

Think about if you really need an entire new system, or if just a few parts. More ram is probably one of the upgrades I hear about the most, and as much at it does help you run more programs at once, or have less studder with resource hungry games, it doesn't really make your system that much "faster" per se. A good cpu will help with the general speed of your system, but 3D game performance/quality is heavily dependant on the video card. If you're looking for huge performance boost with minimal cost, you should consider upgrading your CPU/Motherboard/Ram/Video, and keeping the rest of your system components if they're still functioning and adequate. Your drives and cards as well as your peripherals should work fine on the new motherboard, saving you a lot of cash from buying newer ones that you may honestly not even need.

Basic Computer Parts
The main components of your "computer" itself, excluding things like monitors, keyboards and mice, crap like that. Just the computer box itself, and the stuff inside it.

Motherboard
You can consider this the "core" of the PC, everything attaches/plugs into the motherboard or something attached to the motherboard. Your motherboard dictates what can be plugged into it and is therefor one of the major deciders of what hardware your sytem will be able to support. It's best to select which processor you want first, so you can narrow your search to just the motherboards that support that chip. Some chips come in multiple sockets, so you'll have to decide whether to have a motherboard that will only support that one chip and not much faster, or one that will support more advanced chips/technologies such as dual/quad core or above. Some of the major deciding factors on choosing a motherboard are: what CPUs does it support? How much ram will it support, and which speeds? Does it have PCI, AGP, or PCIE for video? Does it support SLI? How many IDE/SATA slots? Does the bios support overclocking features? Does it have on-board audio/video/raid/wireless?

CPU
The most important part of the PC, the "brain" if you will, is the processor. The speed and complexity of the CPU determines how well you run applications and games, how many you can run at once, or in some cases if you can even run them at all. Dual core processors are able to function as if your system had two physical CPUs, and would be able to benefit applications that take advantage of multiprocessors or hyperthreading. While dual core CPUs are no-doubt faster than a lot of their single-core counterparts, not all programs and applications are able to fully utilize both processors, and may only work on a single core at once. Although getting a faster CPU will certainly speed up your system, if your video card is not up to par, you may not see that much an improvement in 3d games. On the other hand, if you have a high grade video card but a very low power CPU, then the CPU will be the bottleneck. There isn't a specific method to find out whether your CPU or video card is the bottleneck, but looking for benchmarks of your video card alongside different CPU configurations, and then your CPU with other video card configurations should give you a good idea of where you stand. I can' tell you for sure that as far as the latest, heavily graphical games, you'll need at least a dual core processor, and a non-onboard videocard with at least 256mb of vram, preferrably a geforce 7/radeon x1750 or faster. Most dual core processors are also able to run 720p HD video, however 1080i and 1080p may need a bit more power. Some newer video cards help offload rendering from the CPU, but they only reduct CPU usage, so the ability to run HD video is still mainly dependant on the CPU. Your CPU choice will determine what motherboard you get, so best to choose which processor you want to narrow down your choice of motherboards.

Current CPUs:
Highest grade: Intel Core i7, AMD Phenom
Medium Grade: Intel Core 2 Duo, AMD Athlon 64 X2
Low Grade: Intel Pentium 4, AMD Athlon
Legacy: Intel Pentium III, AMD K6-III

Current sockets:
Intel:
LGA 1366 = Core i7
LGA 771 = Core 2 Extreme QX9775
LGA 775 = Core 2 Duo E6300 - Core 2 Extreme QX9650
Socket 478 = Pentium 4, Celeron, Pentium 4 Extreme Edition
Socket 423 = Pentium 4, Celeron
AMD:
AM2+ = Athlon 64, Athlon 64 X2, Athlon 64 FX, Opteron, Phenom
AM2 = Athlon 64, Athlon 64 X2, Athlon 64 FX, Opteron, Phenom
Socket 939 = Athlon 64, Athlon 64 FX to 1 GHz, Athlon 64 X2 to 4800+, Opteron 100
Socket 754 = Athlon 64, Sempron, Turion 64

RAM
Since you usually choose the motherboard and processor first, you then select the ram based on what the motherboard is compatible with. The specifications in the manual or online at the manufacturer's site should show you what range of speeds and what size(s) supported. RAM will have different types like DRAM SDRAM DDR DDR2 and DDR3, and speeds like PC133 PC4000 PC2-6400 and the like. Some motherboards support a technology called "dual channel" for the memory in which you can use pairs of them for improved performance. Nowhere near double, but enough for the higher end crowd to almost need it as a requirement. A good size for an economy PC meant for mostly desktop applications will run well with any OS outside of vista with 1gb of ram, a midrange system that would expect to run some of the latest games, or some more demanding programs, would be better off with 2gb. With vista, add 1gb to those numbers. 4gb and above is frankly too much for the average game player or desktop worker, with the exception of some memory intensive applications like online servers or graphics programs, you won't see any improvement. Also, if you are still using a 32 bit operating system, you may not be able to use any ram above 3gb. This is due to a limit of the amount of memory that can be referenced in 32-bit. In order to be able to access more, you would have to use a 64 bit operating system. It should be noted that 3gb is enough for most games, and any more will not have a noticeable impact on performance, and is therefore not worth changing your OS over if you are comfortable with what your currently have.

Current Ram Speeds:
High-grade: DDR3 1600
Mid-grade: DDR2 800
Low-grade: DDR 400
Legacy: SDR 133

Video card
First, let me get something straight. There is no correlation between the amount of ram on a video card and how fast the card is. The memory on the video card is there to give the GPU a fast resource for memory, having more of it would only help with bottleneck situations where you're filling the ram with too much data either because of too high of graphics settings or too high of resolutions. For games several years old 128mb will do the job. For more recent games, up to just a few years ago, and even some of the newer ones, id suggest at least 256mb. And for the absolute newest games, or for running in maximum detail with AF and AA, you'd be best off with 512mb.

PCI-Express
This is the current format, and the fastest available. There is some confusion over the speed of PCIE in relation to your video card. As I and countless benchmarks on the web can tell you, there is no perceivable difference between 8x and 14x on most video cards. PCIE 2.0 is the newest version of PCIE, and it allows for even HIGHER rates than 14x. Since we haven't even been utilizing 14x yet, not having PCIE 2.0 is nothing to worry about. By the time video cards come out that need more than 14x, you will no doubt be wanting a better processor since it will assuredly be bottlenecking it. PCIE also brings a new technology to the table SLI and crossfire. By using a motherboard with two PCIE 8x slots, that supports either technology (and it's usually one, and not the other), you will be able to pair up video cards to increase your rendering power. The cards must be SLI (nvidia) or Crossfire (amd) capable, and you'll have to connect a sli "bridge" between the cards, and turn on a switch/jumper/bios setting on your mobo (dependent on your mobo, some even do it automatically). There are some up-sides and down-sides to doing this. The down-side would be that you're not getting exactly 100% improvement in most instances, but still paying 100% for another video card. You increase the load on your power supply (it's a good idea to use SLI or Crossfire certified PSUs, but to be safest, check nvidia.com (http://www.nvidia.com/) or ati.com (http://www.ati.com/) and see what wattage and rail amperage they reccomend for your card combination). Further increasing your GPU power will put extra strain on your processor, so if it isn't fast enough to supply both your video cards, it could be holding back the gain you would get from two cards. The up-side is for only the price you paid for your first card (minus declining prie), you get a noticable performance boost when playing newer games, or using maximum video settings and resolutions. Games not benefitting from multiple video cards could still be improved by letting the other card(s) do AntiAliasing. There's of course tri- and quad-sli for the very-absolute-highest framerate out there, but the scaling after two cards is currently pretty meager, and honestly not worth another full payment for a video card in most instances. Something else to keep in mind while thinking about SLI or Crossfire, if you're on a 32 bit operating system, your maximum available ram will be reduced by the amount on your video cards. For instance a system with 4gb of ram and two video cards with 1gb of ram each, will let you only use 2gb of your system ram.

PCI/AGP
These standards are outdated, and you will not see much improvement in video performance even with the the best cards for either slot, at that point you would benefit more from a CPU/Motherboard upgrade, and just getting an entry-level PCIExpress card. If you MUST get a new video card, the geforce 7 series or one of the 2xxx radeon series would be the fastest that you'll find.

Current Video Cards:
High-grade: Nvidia GTX 280, ATI Radeon HD 4870 X2
Mid-grade: Nvidia Geforce 8800 GT, ATI Radeon HD 3870
Low-grade: Nvidia Geforce 7600 GT, ATI Radeon X1900 Pro
Legacy: Nvidia Geforce FX, ATI Radeon 9800, most on-board video

Monitor

CRT
Advantages: best color quality, black/white levels, resolution range, fastest refresh rate.
Disadvantages: Big, heavy, high energy usage, high heat output, expensive to repair, mostly in 4:3 ratio.

LCD
Advantages: small, light, low energy, low heat producing, cheap to repair, mostly in widescreen ratios.
Disadvantages: black levels, displays non-native resolutions blurrier or smaller, old models have problems with viewing angle or "ghosting"/"tracers" when showing movement.
 
other components
To come later.

Mouse
Input devices range from touch pad to touch screen to the stupid eraser head in the middle of laptop keyboards, but mice are generally considered the best for most games and non-graphical applications. Ball mice are inaccurate, clumsy, and get dirty fast which requires frequent cleaning. With optical mice being so affordable nowadays, you have no excuse not to increase your comfort and probably even your productivity by getting one. From a gaming standpoint, you'll prefer a wired, USB mouse for the best sampling rate. Wireless and P/S2 mice don't poll for mice position as much as a wired USB mouse, so mouse movement in 3d games will appear more jerky and less responsive as a result. Wireless mice also need to have their batteries changed, and they are vulnerable to interference, and can have sudden disconnects and need to be re-synched. Most mice nowadays have a scrollwheel/middlemouse button, however some other mice boast features such as additional buttons, a 2 axis scroll wheel, or even increased resolution of movement sampling.
   
Assembly
Rather than write here what has already been done so comprehensively, I leave you with some links to sites with good explanations and diagrams of each part of the procedure. I highly reccomend the first link for most in-depth information, although some may be more comfortable with the other sites that use less techno-jargon and more visuals.

http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/How_To_Build_A_Computer
http://www.youcanbuildyourowncomputer.com/?gclid=CPrWybHmyJICFQuDIgodaWigXA
http://computer.howstuffworks.com/build-a-computer.htm
http://www.techpowerup.com/articles/other/144
http://www.daileyint.com/build/ibuild3.htm
http://www.buildyourowncomputer.net/learntobuild.html

I apologize for the fragmented nature of this post, but it is under constuction and will be continually updated by me, GoldenRatio, and JohnnyCasil. Any suggestions for improvement from other users is greatly appreciated.

Title: Computer building help
Post by: Aten on April 12, 2008, 10:31:39 pm
Sweet topic goat. Really handy.


:EDIT:

Dude, I have a question. These are my motherboard specs:


Can you recommend a good video card to go with this? That whole "PCI Express/AGP" thing has me confused.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goat on April 12, 2008, 11:37:00 pm
Cards like the geforce 7600 or Ati x1800 are some of the fastest you'll be able to get for AGP. Any faster wouldn't help out much since your CPU would be holding your video card back.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: Aten on April 13, 2008, 06:07:17 am
Quote from: goat on April 12, 2008, 11:37:00 pm
Cards like the geforce 7600 or Ati x1800 are some of the fastest you'll be able to get for AGP. Any faster wouldn't help out much since your CPU would be holding your video card back.

I see, thanks. I have a P4 3.2GHz CPU btw, and 1GB ram.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: Standard Toaster on April 24, 2008, 10:10:14 pm
I recently got a laptop for college (Dell Inspiron 1720) and I upgraded it to have a 256mb GeForce 8600M GT and I was wondering, is it DirectX 10 compatible? I don't really care one way or another but if it was that would be pretty cool.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goat on April 24, 2008, 10:27:34 pm
All Geforce 8 series video cards are Direct X 10 compatible, yes.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: Mince Wobley on June 19, 2008, 05:53:49 pm
Hi goat do you think it's possible to build a decent PC that usess less than 100 watts of power?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: Eltee on June 19, 2008, 06:03:45 pm
Quote from: Mince Wobley on June 19, 2008, 05:53:49 pm
Hi goat do you think it's possible to build a decent PC that usess less than 100 watts of power?

Quite honestly, I doubt you can get something averagely decent below 300 watts minimum.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: Mince Wobley on June 19, 2008, 06:11:07 pm
PS: By decent I mean better than mine which is a 1800 mhz Athlon 64 ( with a GeForce FX5500 ) and 256 mb of memory and by 100 watts I don't mean "this is a 300 watt PSU" but "The videocard uses 17 watts (a geforce 7600gs is like this) and the processor uses 50"
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goat on June 20, 2008, 05:59:28 pm
I'm not one much in the know for low wattage, that's maybe a question xaviercraig would know more about. Why only 100w? Anyways, I hear the new low wattage athlon x2 dual core processors only use 35w.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: ailema on July 01, 2008, 05:25:07 am
wow thats cool hope you build that pc successfully
Title: Computer building help
Post by: bobby120 on October 06, 2008, 04:19:20 pm
ahh im into gaming anf i want ot upgrade my PC u have any sugetions 4 me?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: neologix on October 14, 2008, 06:58:39 pm
i'm currently upgrading my desktop pc.

old specs

new specs

i have two parallel ata hdds, one 200gb partitioned into xp pro & ubuntu linux, one 120gb just for storage. when i try to start up ubuntu it hangs and when i try to start up xp it flashes a horizontal line for a split-second, then reboots. i can't copy the drive to a sata drive cuz acronis true image (bootable cd) only reads the 120gb ata and no sata that's attached. i'm not touching clonezilla cuz it doesn't boot properly for me at all - goes to the first screen, i choose an option, then it shows a bunch of lines of loading, then ends w/a prompt labeled " [ initramfs ] ". short of taking out the 120gb and the sata drive, plopping them into external enclosures, and doing the copy from one of my laptops, what can i do?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goat on October 15, 2008, 09:59:19 pm
You'll need to reinstall either xp or windows I'm assuming. You should post a topic about issues you have in the main forum.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on October 18, 2008, 06:37:00 pm
You need to reformat when you're doing major upgrades like that. You can't just slap an HDD in and have it work.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goat on October 18, 2008, 08:29:23 pm
You don't have to reformat, but you'll usually need to reinstall the operating system.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: myersguy on December 02, 2008, 12:07:06 am
Here is a quick question that I am stuck on: Is it possible to have 8 gigs of DDR3 ram? I jus notice that with DDR3 they mostly sell it in 3gig and 6gig amounts, rather than 2 gig and such. Is there a reason to this?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on December 02, 2008, 12:09:38 am
You can buy 2GB sticks of DDR3. Why would you need 8GB though?

http://www.tigerdirect.ca/applications/category/category_slc.asp?CatId=3361&srkey=ddr3
Title: Computer building help
Post by: myersguy on December 02, 2008, 12:18:19 am
I know that you "Can" what I am asking is does DDR3 function differently that DDR2? Is there a reason to run 6 gigs rather than 8. Some kind of triple core reason perhaps?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: AdderallApocalypse on December 03, 2008, 05:12:49 am
How can I determine what kind of processors are compatible with my motherboard? Thanks!
Title: Computer building help
Post by: Jeff on December 03, 2008, 05:48:06 am
Quote from: Omcifer on December 03, 2008, 05:12:49 am
How can I determine what kind of processors are compatible with my motherboard? Thanks!
In general, if the FSB speed of the motherboard (which can be found in the motherboard manual or if you don't have it, downloaded from the manufacturer's website) is greater than or equal to the FSB speed of the processor and the socket number is the same, then it is compatible. However a BIOS update may be needed if the processor came out after the motherboard. To be safe, if the currently compatible processors are not listed on the manufacturer's site, then I would suggest calling/emailing and asking.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goldenratio on January 20, 2009, 02:48:39 am
whats the best graphics for around or under a hundred bucks? maybe like, 150 max. i have a geforce 6800xt atm.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on January 20, 2009, 02:53:07 am
Well the 9800GT is a pretty solid choice; it's consider an 'entry' level gaming card. There's also the 4850 if you prefer ATI.

Oh, just a quick Q. When do you guys forsee socket 1366s coming down in price? They are almost as much as the damn i7 920 itself right now
Title: Computer building help
Post by: neologix on January 20, 2009, 06:09:41 am
+1 on the geforce 9800gt as a "budget" gfx card. for me, i went straight from a 4600 or something to it and haven't looked back.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goldenratio on January 31, 2009, 10:19:50 pm
i found this (9500 gt) for about 70 bucks. http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814162022

i think my mobo is pci x16, not pci x16 2.0. is it worth it getting this upgrade, even if i potentially build a new comp sometime this year? i could get a new mobo+cpu+video card and maybe another gig of ram for a few hundred bucks. i COULD even get it now, but im sorta waiting for windows 7 to be officially released. should i get this card now and possibly get another new one later this year?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on January 31, 2009, 10:27:24 pm
If you're just going to rebuild it and buy a new card I'd recommend saving a bit and then splurging on a higher end card.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goldenratio on January 31, 2009, 10:35:08 pm
yeah thats a good idea i suppose. i dont really need a high end card, i don't game much. i play like wow and tf2-level stuff, at most i guess. if i can play those in windowed mode in windows 7 i am happy. do you think the 9800 is at least this capable? what would be the ATI equivalent to the 9800 (or event he 9 series)?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on January 31, 2009, 11:34:21 pm
A 9800GT will do you just fine for those games. I think the closest equivalent is the 4850 which is a bit (~25%) faster than an 8800/9800GT.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on February 02, 2009, 05:01:49 am
Ok, so I'm thinking of building a new i7 gaming rig / some other stuff and I'm debating between the GTX260 (216 version), GTX280, GTX285, or a GTX295. I would not mind SLIing in the future, but I'm wondering what you would suggest for playing newer games at his resolutions and settings. Is it worth dropping $700 on the 295?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: Barack Obama on February 02, 2009, 07:20:43 am
Quote from: Farmrush on February 02, 2009, 05:01:49 am
Ok, so I'm thinking of building a new i7 gaming rig / some other stuff and I'm debating between the GTX260 (216 version), GTX280, GTX285, or a GTX295. I would not mind SLIing in the future, but I'm wondering what you would suggest for playing newer games at his resolutions and settings. Is it worth dropping $700 on the 295?

I guess if you have that kind of money to piss away, but honestly no videogame is worth spending over 500 dollars to play at higher resolutions. A GTX260 or an HD4870 should be just fine for whatever you need to do.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goat on February 05, 2009, 07:36:15 pm
I'd say get a GTX 260 core 216. SLI'ing those or anything higher will certainly bottleneck the current line of CPUs.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on February 05, 2009, 09:13:24 pm
I was thinking that seeing as it is cheaper at a local store and I heard they are easily overclocked to 280 speeds. To my understanding one 260 (216) is about ~2 8800GTs, is that correct?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: goat on February 06, 2009, 05:06:21 am
Definitely.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: lucky6789 on August 24, 2009, 09:36:06 am
Quote from: goat on April 12, 2008, 11:37:00 pm
Cards like the geforce 7600 or Ati x1800 are some of the fastest you'll be able to get for AGP. Any faster wouldn't help out much since your CPU would be holding your video card back.
Hi  all, this idea is so smart !Thanks for sharing ! :?  :shh: :tsk:

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Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on September 01, 2009, 07:00:45 am
I originally had some elaborate plans, but it seems my motherboard is dying and only survives now from repeatedly flashing the BIOS. Sounds issues and graphics problems are becoming apparent, and I need to replace it. I want to build a Phenom II system, so I decided to try to knock off two birds with one stone. I'm going to be purchasing a Phenom II X3 720, but what I'd like to do is reuse my 4GB of DDR2-800 rather than buy new DDR3 RAM, so I'll be needing an AM2+ board. I currently have an 8800GT which I'll be sticking with for now, but down the road I'll probably replace it with a 4800 series ATI card. I don't think I'll end up using CF anytime soon, but WHAT BOARD SHOULD I BUY?
Title: Computer building help
Post by: Jeff on September 07, 2009, 01:44:32 am
If you aren't an overclocker, I would recommend the Phenom II 910, which is what I am using. I got it for 150$ and it is quad core and better than the 810 in terms of cache. If you are going on the cheap and want to chance it, then go for the X2 550 or the X3 720 and try to unlock the cores. Biostar TA790GX motherboards are best for this, but the Gigabyte GA-M4790X works as well. If you go with the 910, 810, or any other quad core, the DFI Lanparty and the ASUS M4A79T (what I am using) are your best bets, though I have not tested it out, ASUS and DFI have pretty fantastic overclocking ability. All of the boards I listed are AM3, but generally come in DDR3 or DDR2 formats, just make sure you are buying the version of the board with the memory you have or intend to use.

As far as the 4800s go, the 5xx0s will be out next month or November, which may be a better alternative. Currently, the only AMD card I would buy are the 4770s, single if you only do moderate gaming or double for heavy gaming or gaming on 1920x1200 or higher resolutions.
Title: Computer building help
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on May 06, 2010, 10:43:58 pm
What resolution are you looking to game at?