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General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 09, 2008, 05:01:28 pm

Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 09, 2008, 05:01:28 pm
you're apparently a racist and generally awful guy (http://www.gamingw.net/forums/index.php?topic=5797.0) and Afura says you've agreed to a debate of sorts, so step up chumley.

also guys since he'd be overwhelmed if we all came in at once, let's just have this between me *cracks knuckles* and him for now.

so basically dude post some views of yours so I don't waste time asking questions that you can say HEY I NEVER SAID THAT with.

*boxing fists*
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Shepperd on May 09, 2008, 06:23:37 pm
do it in PMs
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: dada on May 09, 2008, 06:30:36 pm
Why should they do it in PMs? Let them do it here. I promise I won't intervene!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 09, 2008, 07:12:31 pm
Ok so it's really early in the morning here in New Zealand and I just woke up, I'm gunna leave a note on his door before I go to work to reply so hopefully he posts something today.


To my flatmate

Don't hold anything back or say half opinions either man(you dont know these people so who cares yeah?).

I just want you to post some of your opinions and try argue them, be honest (Apatheid in Africa was a good thing, Holocaust denial isn't a crime, Black people are dumber than white people, they have found a gene in Maori's that makes them more agressive, Jews control the media and banking, everyone is just too heavily influenced by left wing media and Europe is one of the only places with laws that allow proper coverage, the media made the Holocaust and Apatheid look alot worse than it is etc).

Wait I just remembered some more opinions: Because traits can be inherited through dogs, traits such as laziness can be inherited through race.

No country has fully prospered without the help of white people and that is why countries like Africa are in so much trouble (with the exclusion of Asia).
(This is probally the only opinion which isn't a direct quote but I know you posted a variation of this so don't try change any of the others k!)
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Marcus on May 09, 2008, 07:49:12 pm
Quote
Apatheid in Africa was a good thing
Quote
the media made the Holocaust and Apatheid look alot worse than it is etc

oh god somebody hold ME back

Quote
do it in PMs

what? no.  this is a flat out brawl mano y mano.  it'll probably be moved to the crap shack but shit this is the fight of the century month.

STEEL PALADINE v. RACIST NEW ZEALANDER

HEAVEN OR HELL?

FIGHT
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: dada on May 09, 2008, 08:15:24 pm
This is totally unimportant but I'd like to mention that the correct term is Apartheid. This is an Afrikaans word that's identical in Dutch. It literally means "separateness".
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 10, 2008, 04:22:18 am
Its the weekend in NZ and I havent even been home yet but I'd assume he's busy, I'll bump this topic until he is free (should be tommorow or tonight but I promise we will get a reply ok!).

Also I forgot the time he was arguing to my asian flatmates that asians have less morals than whites hahah.


Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 10, 2008, 05:05:46 am
man I'm going to visit Chef and Bort on Monday and will be gone till Saturday at the earliest!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 10, 2008, 05:17:14 am
man I'm going to visit Chef and Bort on Monday and will be gone till Saturday at the earliest!
what
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: unusualgamer on May 10, 2008, 07:30:42 am
man I'm going to visit Chef and Bort on Monday and will be gone till Saturday at the earliest!

yeah what.

come visit me fucko. (second try is a charm???)
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 10, 2008, 07:34:41 am
didn't he visit corel once and creep out his parents or something??
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: unusualgamer on May 10, 2008, 07:37:59 am
I'm not sure, but when I was like 15 he came like 20 minutes from me, and my parents were not comfortable with me meeting an internet guy at the time. (I got to chill with chef, so it's all good 8))
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 10, 2008, 11:33:03 am
didn't he visit corel once and creep out his parents or something??

dude either you just confused me with Waluigi Soap (BEYOND THE PALE) or you're thinking of a joke I made which was something like:

*drivesup to corel's school in a harley, cigarette in mouth. youths gather* which one of you's corel?

*a small brown boy comes to the front, eyes gleaming with joy*

get on kid *drives away, corels parents call americas most wanted two days later mad with grief*
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: helter skelter on May 10, 2008, 03:28:01 pm
Corel...
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: theHunter on May 10, 2008, 03:50:51 pm
Well this is interesting.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 10, 2008, 03:57:19 pm
oh yeah I forgot that. we were going to PHOTOSHOP PICS TOGETHER or something but he was a gaywad.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ghastly_darklord on May 10, 2008, 07:46:31 pm
hey peo, does bort know you're seeing him yet?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 11, 2008, 06:45:31 am
My flatmates getting ready to post right now so prepare for war!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: TMAC on May 11, 2008, 06:57:29 am
HERE COMES DAREDEVIL! (Sorry couldn't help it after reading the Heaven or Hell comment by Marcus.)
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: datamanc3r on May 11, 2008, 07:24:41 am
My money's on Steel.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 11, 2008, 07:49:40 am
Hey guys

I'm Afura's flatmate.

So by definition racism is the belief that your race is superior to all others genetically.  My belief is just that people of different races have different mentalities and intelligences and that this is not entirely due to environment but partly due to their genetics.  Therefore i'm not racist.  Some may say this is the same thing as studies show whites are more intelligent than blacks.  However I would argue that studies also show north east asians are in fact smarter again, making whites not the most intelligent race and therefore not the "master race" talked about by nazis and most traditional white supremist organisations.

The fact that different races have different mentalities and intelligences is a widely accepted fact and is proven by every study ever done on intelligence difference between races.  The part that is controversial, however, is the cause of this difference.  The behaviouralists believe that this is entirely due to their environment and that the reason african americans end up with lower paying jobs and do worse in school in the united states is due to "the white man keeping them down".  This view is not based on any evidence, however, and is only the most widely held view because it is what people want to believe.  As can be seen in this journal (http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/journals/pppl/200504/2/235-2.html), there is an overwhelming amount of research that proves there is an indisputable correlation between IQ and race.  I'm not going to go into detail about each experiment because it'd take too much time; if you're interested read the article.

A common argument to this point is that IQ and race are both abstract social constructions.  You may try and discredit IQ tests and say they only prove you're good at taking IQ tests but there is also an indisputable correlation between your IQ and academic success and between IQ and average income.  So although its hard to define "intelligence" or a way to unquestionably test it, we can say that these tests prove your chance of academic success and earning potential.  The idea that race is also an abstract social construction is based on the idea that people have more of a continuous variation in their genes and traits rather than clear cut categories.  This is true now partly due to mixing of races.  However, I would still argue people can be categorised into logical "races" by their physical traits, historical geographic origin and particularly genetic make up.  These races are rational and are not abstract due to the fact that aside from half casts everyone falls into an indisputable category.  You can't say an african is an asian anymore than you can say a cat is a dog.  It's not abstract its a fact that can be seen by their physical characteristics and indisuptable proved by their DNA.  Half casts now don't fall into one of these categories and may belong to two or more categories meaning they have genes made up from all these races.

So I conclude that these logical 'races' have been proven to have different IQs and they are an indication of their academic and financial success.



This view is very unpopular in modern society.  Today's media pushes the idea that anything said by a white person that is negative towards another race is automatically "racist" and therefore the person saying it must be very stupid, as evil as hitler and deserves to die a painful death.  We are all for freedom of speech but if it's racist then that person must be silence, right?
I would also like to add that this conclusion doesn't mean that anyone is any less of a person based on their race.  I don't hate people because on their race, I have friends who are other races, I even used to go out with an asian chick.  A lot of people, particularly of minorities proven to have a lower intelligence really don't like this view.  It is logically very hard for them to take and most often they will make up some mental justification for it being wrong or try to find some bullshit irrelevant hole in the argument.  These people can continue to lie to themselves and say "it's not true" but if they really open their eyes they will see it is.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 11, 2008, 07:55:10 am
Haha this is going to be fun, I'm excited for when it gets to Jews controlling the world but we will wait for some replies on this first.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: dada on May 11, 2008, 07:57:18 am
I gaze into the doorway of temptation's angry flame. Unfortunately, this is Steel's debate, so I'll stay out of it!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 11, 2008, 08:01:28 am
I gaze into the doorway of temptation's angry flame. Unfortunately, this is Steel's debate, so I'll stay out of it!

Quote
man I'm going to visit Chef and Bort on Monday and will be gone till Saturday at the earliest!


Dude I'd say post for now until Steel comes back. Lets get started!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: dada on May 11, 2008, 08:13:08 am
Too bad I'm working right now. I'm going to come back here later and unleash my furious anger.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 11, 2008, 08:14:33 am
btw guys I can talk about all those other things I said to afura that he quoted, most of them I did say and believe but just don't want to write pages and pages of arguments atm, one because im quite busy and two because noone would bother to read it if i said too much at once
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Mince Wobley on May 11, 2008, 08:29:18 am
But Dredd, dogs and cats cannot mate, asians and africans can. Because they're the same species. I think your theory is flawed.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 11, 2008, 10:25:40 am
Thats irrelevant I used that line to illustrate the obviousness of the difference between races, not as an parallel for the genetic variation between them.  However if you want me to use an analogy which is the same situation it would be like calling a pitbull a poodle or a st bernard a chihuahua.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 11, 2008, 10:32:31 am
Thats irrelevant I used that line to illustrate the obviousness of the difference between races, not as an parallel for the genetic variation between them.  However if you want me to use an analogy which is the same situation it would be like calling a pitbull a poodle or a st bernard a chihuahua.

Yeah dude he's a forum troll ignore it.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Bisse on May 11, 2008, 11:12:54 am
wurds
I just have to butt in and say that out of all the things Afura listed that you apparently believe, this is the only one I can sort of agree with, however you take the wrong approach to arguing for it and blow up the point a bit too much so that in the end, even though the individual sentences you're saying do make sense, what you're actually communicating is arrogant tripe, and a needlessly radical and shocking message that you're intentionally setting up in a way that people will never listen to you. Summed up in one single word, it's nothing more than flamebait. In the end the only line you said that I could side with is that 'people can be categorised into logical "races" by their physical traits, historical geographic origin and particularly genetic make up'. You need to learn to argue your points without coming off as a dickhead if you want people to listen to you, or maybe you don't want people to listen and just get a kick out of shocking people.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 11, 2008, 12:26:13 pm
you take the wrong approach to arguing for it and blow up the point a bit too much so that in the end, even though the individual sentences you're saying do make sense, what you're actually communicating is arrogant tripe, and a needlessly radical and shocking message that you're intentionally setting up in a way that people will never listen to you.

I've tried to answer the question as best I can without being arrogant or offending anyone but this is impossible because no matter how I word my argument the argument itself is offensive.  Nearly everyone reading this thread probably thinks im a completely arrogant dickhead and to be honest I don't blame you.  Western society views people with views like mine as 'racist' and automatically associate them with being a stupid, arrogant redneck, probably just like you did the moment you read the subject of this thread.

It's hard for a person to be open minded to a view they've been told to hate their whole life.  Due to this I don't think this 'debate' is really going to be that constructive.  Even if I give an infallible argument supporting my point of view most of you won't accept it and will leave this thread with the same view you had from the beginning, not to mention feeling a bit angrier.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Pilla on May 11, 2008, 02:05:32 pm
Dredd, I would just like to say that I have to disagree. I am currently in a place now where I live (sort of like a job training camp) is evidence that it is not based on race on how well off you would end up. In fact, I was fortunate enough to be raised in an environment where intelligence was valued over anything else. I truly believe genetics have nothing to do with how much you'll end up with and how smart you can be. My standpoint stands strong with environment, if I was raised in a bad area with no construction then perhaps I would not have been blessed enough to possess what I have now.  Each and every human has as much potential as the next, no matter how bad it might seem from their race. I'll see my way out however, I'm interested to see where this goes.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: datamanc3r on May 11, 2008, 02:59:30 pm
It's a shame that you're not a pompous asshole; that would have made things interesting. But having realized the seriousness that you take this point of view with, this can actually be a constructive L-D debate. Can't wait to see how this goes.

Some quick questions to clarify your point -- to what extent do you believe that genetics determine a person's "academic and financial" success? Is this a stronger influence than a person's environment?

Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 11, 2008, 03:16:43 pm
I'll leave the debating to other people, but here are some things I found interesting about the article you linked to...

- J. Phillipe Rushton, one of the authors,  is currently the head of the Pioneer Fund, which is listed as a hate group and has been critiscised numerous times for pseudoscientific racism and supporting segregation and 'back to Africa' hate speech. It was founded in the late thirties by men with strong ties to the german Nazi movement, especially Henry Laughlin, who 'proposed a research agenda to assist in the enforcement of Southern "race integrity laws" by developing techniques for identifying the "pass-for-white" person who might "successfully hide all of his black blood".' He also spoke many times about how America should have a eugenics system similar to that of the Nazis.
According to Wikipedia (which is hardly flawless, but whatever), 'The 1937 incorporation documents of the Pioneer Fund list two purposes. The first, modeled on the Nazi Lebensborn breeding program,[11] was aimed at encouraging the propagation of those "descended predominantly from white persons who settled in the original thirteen states prior to the adoption of the Constitution of the United States and/or from related stocks, or to classes of children, the majority of whom are deemed to be so descended". Its second purpose was to support academic research and the "dissemination of information, into the 'problem of heredity and eugenics'" and "the problems of race betterment".'
The Pioneer Fund's current approach is probably best seen in the form of one Richard Lynn. To quote the Southern Poverty Law center:
"Blacks are not only less intelligent than other races, Lynn asserted, but also "more psychopathic." Putting a new twist on the "science" that once supported slavery, Lynn concluded that because of their "psychopathic personalities," blacks are more aggressive than other races, less able to form long-term relationships, and more sexually promiscuous, reckless and prone to lying.
But Lynn's pal at Pioneer has identified at least one countervailing factor. "Blacks have a genetic edge," Rushton said, "when it comes to sports." "

- Rushton has also contributed many articles to the magazine American Renaissance, which has been linked many times to white supremicism. Among many other things, they believe "interracial and inter-cultural marriage is racial suicide and an unequal yoking, and that such unions go against the very community which marriage is designed to establish".
The editor of American Renaissance is one Jared Taylor, who "has often expressed great personal distaste over the presence of non-whites in Europe and America". In a speech delivered on 28 May 2005, to a British far right group, Taylor made clear his feelings on the offspring of interracial marriages when he said "I want my grandchildren to look like my grandparents. I don't want them to look like Anwar Sadat or Fu Manchu or Whoopi Goldberg."

- Rushton's scientific technique has been blasted on many occasions. One complaint is that he approaches data with preset conclusions in mind, and 'shows' that his ideas are right by asking other people to prove them wrong. This technique is most often used by fundamentalists and anti-evolutionists, among others of that ilk. He's been repeatedly accused by people like renowned geneticist Stephen Jay Gould of allowing personal bias to colour his data.

- Rushton's data itself has been called into question due to his habit of 'aggregation', or giving all data equal weight regardless of their quality or whether they exhibit a strong bias. He's claimed to use over '100 years of research', despite the fact that intelligence tests as far as the late fifties have been repeatedly shown to be extremely biased and inaccurate. This tendancy of assuming that all research is equally valid and correct is at best naive and at worst deliberately misleading.

- Did I mention that Rushton's book, as well as one by his partner Arthur R. Jensen, are both available for free on a pro-eugenics website? http://neoeugenics.home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/  (http://neoeugenics.home.comcast.net/~neoeugenics/)

- The American Psychological Association has officially disowned the genetic-intelligence hypothesis, stating "There is not much direct evidence on this point, but what little there is fails to support the genetic hypothesis".

- Speaking of Arthur Jensen, he's also recieved more than one million dollars in funding from the Pioneer Fund. While apparantly not as neck-deep in deranged bullshit as his pal Rushton, he's still pro-eugenics and his research has also been heavily featured in, you guessed it, American Renaissance magazine.

So, yeah. I know that being funded by white-supremicist, neo-nazi eugenicists doesn't necessarily mean that your research on how black people are inferior to whites is tainted (well, it probably does, but whatever). Just something to think about, anyway! :gwa:

EDIT: Hahahahaha, just reread that article and they're seriously trying to verify CHARLES SPEARMAN. I mean, come on. Spearman was a eugenics-advocating elitist fuck who deliberately altered all the results he got by classifying anything remotely contradictory as 'faulty', in such a shitty and obious way that he was the laughing stock of the scientific world for decades. And these guys are actually taking his "research" seriously? Check out this article for a brief history of Spearman and his influence on these guys: http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrchap7.htm
Rushton and Jensen are hacks, from a long line of hacks, and that paper has as much scientific value as an episode of Superfriends. Steel, I'm sorry for getting in the way of the debate, but I didn't think this stuff would come up otherwise and I wanted people to know that this guy's views are as scientifically worthless as they are morally indefensible.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Bisse on May 11, 2008, 04:35:21 pm
Dredd, I would just like to say that I have to disagree. I am currently in a place now where I live (sort of like a job training camp) is evidence that it is
No matter how much you disagree, personal experience isn't worth anything in a debate, is not evidence of anything, and is a pretty bad argument in general.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 11, 2008, 05:02:04 pm
actually it's best if like catamites and omeg and people like that do this; today's mother's day and I have to go do shit and then tomorrow like I said I'm leaving for a whole week!

so yeah you guys go at it.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ghastly_darklord on May 11, 2008, 05:24:11 pm
However I would argue that studies also show north east asians are in fact smarter again, making whites not the most intelligent race and therefore not the "master race" talked about by nazis and most traditional white supremist organisations.

how much anime do you watch

no seriously
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 11, 2008, 05:30:23 pm
So by definition racism is the belief that your race is superior to all others genetically.  My belief is just that people of different races have different mentalities and intelligences and that this is not entirely due to environment but partly due to their genetics.  Therefore i'm not racist.  Some may say this is the same thing as studies show whites are more intelligent than blacks.  However I would argue that studies also show north east asians are in fact smarter again, making whites not the most intelligent race and therefore not the "master race" talked about by nazis and most traditional white supremist organisations.

this is fantastically stupid, the least reason of which is by definition racism is

Quote
a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

USUALLY doesn't mean THE definition sooo.

secondly this incredibly asinine idea that if you believe in genetic superiority in races but you aren't a racist is pretty fucking laughable dude. WHOA DONT WORRY; WHITES AREN'T AT THE TOP *whips a nigger*. it's a bit like sucking dick and saying it isn't necessarily gay; the chances of this are so slim as to be nonexistent.

Quote
The fact that different races have different mentalities and intelligences is a widely accepted fact and is proven by every study ever done on intelligence difference between races.  The part that is controversial, however, is the cause of this difference.  The behaviouralists believe that this is entirely due to their environment and that the reason african americans end up with lower paying jobs and do worse in school in the united states is due to "the white man keeping them down".  This view is not based on any evidence, however, and is only the most widely held view because it is what people want to believe.  As can be seen in this journal (http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/journals/pppl/200504/2/235-2.html), there is an overwhelming amount of research that proves there is an indisputable correlation between IQ and race.  I'm not going to go into detail about each experiment because it'd take too much time; if you're interested read the article.

a widely accepted fact? no. no study that's legitimate actually believes there are "different intelligences" since that's not even a thing and most studies acknowledge the fact that intelligence is near impossible to measure. there is a scientific concensus that blacks and hispanics tend to underperform on IQ tests though.

thecatamites destroyed your shitty shitty link but christ it's a fact, you idiot. even if you ignore the incredible social strain that tends to force blacks into poorer conditions, the ignorance in the public school systems, the poor educational standards of the government, study after study after study has shown that a black person with equal qualifications to a white person was far less likely to be hired. in fact the only race where this deviated was with asians, where a slight increase occurred at middle management, only to have a severe decline after it. there is a de facto racist system in employment and education in this country, you're a fucking idiot if you don't know that.

ps Jensen wrote in the 1970s, a period of some racial fear and confusion, and a mere twenty years after the civil rights movement. kind of weird though, when even the notoriously libertarian Cato Institute admits the gap has reduced by a third in the last thirty years (http://www.cato-unbound.org/2007/11/20/james-r-flynn/the-black-white-iq-gap/) and from social factors. if it's genetic...how did those nigras get so smart...

Quote
A common argument to this point is that IQ and race are both abstract social constructions.  You may try and discredit IQ tests and say they only prove you're good at taking IQ tests but there is also an indisputable correlation between your IQ and academic success and between IQ and average income.  So although its hard to define "intelligence" or a way to unquestionably test it, we can say that these tests prove your chance of academic success and earning potential.  The idea that race is also an abstract social construction is based on the idea that people have more of a continuous variation in their genes and traits rather than clear cut categories.  This is true now partly due to mixing of races.  However, I would still argue people can be categorised into logical "races" by their physical traits, historical geographic origin and particularly genetic make up.  These races are rational and are not abstract due to the fact that aside from half casts everyone falls into an indisputable category.  You can't say an african is an asian anymore than you can say a cat is a dog.  It's not abstract its a fact that can be seen by their physical characteristics and indisuptable proved by their DNA.  Half casts now don't fall into one of these categories and may belong to two or more categories meaning they have genes made up from all these races.

So I conclude that these logical 'races' have been proven to have different IQs and they are an indication of their academic and financial success.

this is so fucking stupid! how idiotic are you? go back to high school biology you idiot and the teacher will pound you into the dirt. your logical races are the abstract social construction you stupid fuck. go back to high school stat too because they'd tell you that correlation is not causation. higher IQ and academic success or income doesn't mean shit if the test is fucking useless. what if it was a test on the lightness of skin? would you say because white folk hire white folk for their best jobs or white teachers ignore black students and white officials give black students the worst schools it's a fair measure? you idiot.

WHOA THIS FAULTY TEST INDICATES SUCCESS IT CAN'T BE BECAUSE THE TEST IS ADMITTEDLY BIASED AND SHITTY AND EVERYONE ELSE IS TOO gah how are you this fucking stupid.

Quote
This view is very unpopular in modern society.  Today's media pushes the idea that anything said by a white person that is negative towards another race is automatically "racist" and therefore the person saying it must be very stupid, as evil as hitler and deserves to die a painful death.  We are all for freedom of speech but if it's racist then that person must be silence, right?

REVEREND WRIGHT YOU STUPID FUCK.

Quote
I would also like to add that this conclusion doesn't mean that anyone is any less of a person based on their race.  I don't hate people because on their race, I have friends who are other races, I even used to go out with an asian chick.  A lot of people, particularly of minorities proven to have a lower intelligence really don't like this view.  It is logically very hard for them to take and most often they will make up some mental justification for it being wrong or try to find some bullshit irrelevant hole in the argument.  These people can continue to lie to themselves and say "it's not true" but if they really open their eyes they will see it is.

you are a racist, one of the primary arguments racists use is "I have a lot of friends in other races and used to date one", and you're a filthy fucking human being who will, thank god, eventually be skewered on his own idiot petard.

ps I'm way fucking smarter than you (at least I know to check my highly outdated sources) and I'm a minority funny how that works???

I've tried to answer the question as best I can without being arrogant or offending anyone but this is impossible because no matter how I word my argument the argument itself is offensive.  Nearly everyone reading this thread probably thinks im a completely arrogant dickhead and to be honest I don't blame you.  Western society views people with views like mine as 'racist' and automatically associate them with being a stupid, arrogant redneck, probably just like you did the moment you read the subject of this thread.

It's hard for a person to be open minded to a view they've been told to hate their whole life.  Due to this I don't think this 'debate' is really going to be that constructive.  Even if I give an infallible argument supporting my point of view most of you won't accept it and will leave this thread with the same view you had from the beginning, not to mention feeling a bit angrier.

no it's because you're fighting for your racially insensitive views and accusing everyone else of being closeminded while deliberately ignoring all of human history, you idiot cracker, that's why we all know you're just an angry little white boy foaming about JEWS AND NIGGERS and in reality if a black guy approached you you'd throw your wallet on the ground and run away screaming, you armchair intellectual fuck.

eat dicks forever, your friend,

Magical Negro.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 11, 2008, 05:37:23 pm
hey look all I did was call you, or your family and friends, naturally stupider than me, the white guy. look if you were east asian I would agree to go to the ghetto but you're not, so honestly, just accept you're just naturally always going to be stupider than me. no, look, here's a study from 1970, I don't need a body of evidence from the late 90s.

just...just leave me alone guys. I'm just expressing viewpoints here. just trying to tell you you're a genetic idiot.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 11, 2008, 06:09:41 pm
So by definition racism is the belief that your race is superior to all others genetically.  My belief is just that people of different races have different mentalities and intelligences and that this is not entirely due to environment but partly due to their genetics.  Therefore i'm not racist.  

That's interesting, since http://www.google.ie/search?hl=en&defl=en&q=define:Racism&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title gives a good few definitions including:
- Prejudice or discrimination based on an individual's race
- The belief that one 'racial group' is inferior to another
- Racism is prejudice or discrimination based on the belief that race is the primary factor determining human traits and abilities. Racism includes the belief that genetic or inherited differences produce the inherent superiority or inferiority of one race over another. ...
So, yeah, you actually are a racist by every definition except your own carefull-worded one.

Some may say this is the same thing as studies show whites are more intelligent than blacks.  However I would argue that studies also show north east asians are in fact smarter again, making whites not the most intelligent race and therefore not the "master race" talked about by nazis and most traditional white supremist organisations

Wow. Studies. I'm impressed. Tell me, when you say 'studies', are you referring to the one you gave earlier by Rushton and Jensen? Because I've already pointed out that that's a massive pile of crap. Maybe there are some non-retarded ones you could point me to? And just in case you didn't see my other post, this link http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrchap7.htm is a pretty good run through of exactly why that study is a total load. I just love how you're so quick to dissociate yourself from nazis, though, since it's more than can be said for the authors of that piece of shit pamphlet you linked to.

The fact that different races have different mentalities and intelligences is a widely accepted fact and is proven by every study ever done on intelligence difference between races.

Yeah, except for the ones that weren't completely made up by racist genocide-advocating assholes. I'm not even going to get into how the type of 'intelligence' that's being tested is the one that only ever came into being through Charles Spearman and his, er, imaginative way with research data.

The part that is controversial, however, is the cause of this difference.  The behaviouralists believe that this is entirely due to their environment and that the reason african americans end up with lower paying jobs and do worse in school in the united states is due to "the white man keeping them down".  This view is not based on any evidence, however, and is only the most widely held view because it is what people want to believe.

Ah, so black kids in Harlem don't do badly because they're the product of a massively underfunded school system, it's because they're black. And we know this because of the indisputably correct research you've provided us with. Right, that clears that up then. I guess it makes sense though, since they're too busy spending their welfare money on gold teeth and watermelons to learn anything.

As can be seen in this journal (http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/journals/pppl/200504/2/235-2.html), there is an overwhelming amount of research that proves there is an indisputable correlation between IQ and race.  I'm not going to go into detail about each experiment because it'd take too much time; if you're interested read the article.

'Gripping' - Washington Post
'Epic' - Observer
'A tour-de-force of comic fantasy' - New York Times

A common argument to this point is that IQ and race are both abstract social constructions.  You may try and discredit IQ tests and say they only prove you're good at taking IQ tests but there is also an indisputable correlation between your IQ and academic success and between IQ and average income.  So although its hard to define "intelligence" or a way to unquestionably test it, we can say that these tests prove your chance of academic success and earning potential.  The idea that race is also an abstract social construction is based on the idea that people have more of a continuous variation in their genes and traits rather than clear cut categories.  This is true now partly due to mixing of races.  However, I would still argue people can be categorised into logical "races" by their physical traits, historical geographic origin and particularly genetic make up.  These races are rational and are not abstract due to the fact that aside from half casts everyone falls into an indisputable category.  You can't say an african is an asian anymore than you can say a cat is a dog.  It's not abstract its a fact that can be seen by their physical characteristics and indisuptable proved by their DNA.  Half casts now don't fall into one of these categories and may belong to two or more categories meaning they have genes made up from all these races

Well, as far as I can see, the main point all of that rambling bullshit hinges on is that IQ = success. And "A 2002 study further examined the impact of non-IQ factors on income and concluded that an offspring's inherited wealth, race, and schooling are more important as factors in determining income than IQ". Jesus, would you please even google some of this shit before posting? I'm not even enjoying this anymore, it's like pushing a crippled kid down a flight of stairs. Except the crippled kid is a racist fuck. Actually, scratch that, I'm okay with this now.

So I conclude that these logical 'races' have been proven to have different IQs and they are an indication of their academic and financial success.

It's interesting how your definition of the word 'proved' is a lot more lenient than everyone elses. I think a more suitable term would be 'claimed', or to be more accurate 'claimed by retarded closet nazis'.

This view is very unpopular in modern society.

Wow, jesus, I wonder why? Maybe because it's wrong and has been responsible for some of the worst crimes against humanity ever seen?

Today's media pushes the idea that anything said by a white person that is negative towards another race is automatically "racist" and therefore the person saying it must be very stupid, as evil as hitler and deserves to die a painful death.  We are all for freedom of speech but if it's racist then that person must be silence, right?

Stop watching Fox News. Seriously.

I would also like to add that this conclusion doesn't mean that anyone is any less of a person based on their race.  I don't hate people because on their race, I have friends who are other races, I even used to go out with an asian chick.  A lot of people, particularly of minorities proven to have a lower intelligence really don't like this view.  It is logically very hard for them to take and most often they will make up some mental justification for it being wrong or try to find some bullshit irrelevant hole in the argument.  These people can continue to lie to themselves and say "it's not true" but if they really open their eyes they will see it is.

See, up until this point here I thought you were just dumb. Let me put it like this: You're a sad, worthless, nasty little fuck who gets some sort of pathetic little ego boost out of being offensive, who jacks off to the thought of being some kind of FREETHINKING REBEL when really you're just a massive douche who uses flimsy pseudoscience to justify your own asinine beliefs. And keep telling yourself that you're scientifically proven to be right and that you have TONS of black friends, because if you didn't then you might suddenly realise you're a joke, an embarrassment, and a monumentally sad excuse for a human being.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Frankie on May 11, 2008, 06:12:58 pm
Well I sort of wished the subject would be on something else, like jews controllinhg govertments and whatever else. We sort of knew these researches were biased already... but as for jewish conspiracy theories, I am curious as of what sources will be brought up.

On the other hand, its been proven that whites excel in sports games such as madden and nfl
what do you say to that, mr... "magical" negro?

also whats your stormfront account name, Dredd? Mine is JewsDid911_92

 :fogetshifty:
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 11, 2008, 06:14:15 pm
Quote
some kind of FREETHINKING REBEL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angry_white_male
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: dada on May 11, 2008, 06:41:47 pm
Yeah I'll just butt in here to say that this topic was made for the sole purpose of debating. That means you need to have a somewhat thick skin to participate. If you think any of this is cruel, hit the "back" button now.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Xeno|Soft on May 11, 2008, 07:35:52 pm
Insert opinion>

um, people are genetically superior to others, duh. but I personally don't think its linked to race persay, but more to culture and location. Black people come from Africa, of course their DNA is going to evolve over THOUSANDS of years to better adapt itself to that enviorment, the sameway people who live in the cold developed to ...live in the COLD.

The same way my DNA determends what color my skin is, I'm pretty sure it plays a role in how fast I can run, my hand eye coordination, and how strong I can become. but it only plays as a blueprint and only that, you have to actually build on it. Some people may have better blue prints, but if you can push yourself harder than them, and if you were lucky enough to be surrounded by a good enviorment, then you can easily be better than someone with a superior "blue print"

As far as "intelligence" goes, the thing is I would say that it's 50/50 almost. Some people are just blessed with a great mind and I don't think that's linked to race, but more to culture, but hey a prodigy is a prodigy.

Summarize: their are people who are just naturally better than in you in certan fields; but it's not "race" dependent.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Bisse on May 11, 2008, 07:38:47 pm
Summarize: their are people who are just naturally better than in you in certan fields; but it's not "race" dependent.
I dunno man. Asians are really good at ping pong.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Xeno|Soft on May 11, 2008, 07:41:28 pm
no, blacks own that sport too:

refrence

Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 11, 2008, 08:36:52 pm
Ok, so he is at work now and is going to post again later tonight so lets not get this topic locked, k thanks.


Don't post in here unless you have something new to say, Also Dredd don't forget to mention how seeing a black guy with a white girl makes you angry in your next argument
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ase on May 11, 2008, 08:47:19 pm
IF YOU DON'T HAVE SOMETHING TO SAY TO ADD TO THIS DEBATE ABOUT RACISM, NATURE VS. NURTURE, DISCRIMINATION & GENETICS THEN PLEASE DO NOT POST

THIS TOPIC WAS PRE-ORGANIZED AND DESERVES TO STAY HERE IN GENERAL. THIS IS AN INTELLIGENT DEBATE ABOUT SOMETHING INTERESTING FOR A CHANGE, SO PLEASE DON'T POST AND FUCK UP THE TOPIC WITH YOUR DRAMA

THANK YOU

~ Your favorite moderator
~ ASE
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 11, 2008, 08:50:27 pm
uh this was never intended to be an intelligent debate and that was pretty clear from the start. I'd actually refuse to intelligently debate someone like this because it indicates the two positions have some disparity of opinion or thinking instead of scientific fact, logic, and decency all being on one side and angry white kids who think minorities are stupid being on the other.

catamites is at least sourcing his shit, I'm just calling the guy a worthless douche.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ase on May 11, 2008, 08:52:23 pm
well, I meant "intelligent" on one side of the debate

as opposed to "dumb and uninformed" on both sides of the debate, as tends to occur in most gw topics
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 11, 2008, 08:54:21 pm
also I am leaving tomorrow at noon so I'm pretty much passing the hat to catamites who will have the YOU FUCKING WORTHLESS DICK and omeg/Dada who will have the "hmm you're just a worthless dick but i dont get it" pretty much. everyone else limit your replies so he doesn't get overwhelmed.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: local_dunce on May 11, 2008, 09:12:11 pm
Hey guys

Hey

Quote
I'm Afura's flatmate.

How's it going.

Quote
So by definition racism is the belief that your race is superior to all others genetically.
 

The last time I checked racism was a product of hatred and not genetics at all.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Racism

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."

You have pretty much stated RACE A IS GREATER THAN RACE B and by dictionary definition that's racism so pull the next one out of your ass and don't use the term BY DEFINITION BY DEFINITION because I think you got that one completely. Fuck I'm not a smart guy and I don't like debate but I can at least check a dictionary before I start claiming WHAT WORDS MEANS.

Quote
My belief is just that people of different races have different mentalities and intelligences and that this is not entirely due to environment but partly due to their genetics.
 

Okay so, BY DEFINITION you are a racist and you think this is perfectly acceptable.

Let me just restate what the definition of racism is again so you don't come back and say I'M NOT A RACIST I'M NOT A RACIST.

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."

Quote
Therefore i'm not racist.

"The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others."

Quote
Some may say this is the same thing as studies show whites are more intelligent than blacks.
 

What freaking studies? Nazi propaganda from the 30's told us that SCIENTIFICALLY AND BY GOD ALL JEWS WERE SPAWN OF THE DEVIL. I don't know if you link to these studies later because I'm winging this as I go but come on man. Just because someone isn't a great speaker of YOUR native language doesn't classify a whole race as stupid. LET'S TEST THE IMMIGRANTS, THEY DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW TO COUNT MONEY. There's way too many factors for any kind of test like that to even be fair. What was tested SCHOOL RESULTS BETWEEN THE US AND THE THIRD WORLD. IQ TESTS ON IMMIGRANT POLISH WORKERS. WE'VE CRACKED IT, INTELLIGENCE IS BASED ON SKIN COLOUR, WE'RE GONNA WIN A NOBEL PRIZE FOR THIS ONE!

Quote
However I would argue that studies also show north east asians are in fact smarter again, making whites not the most intelligent race and therefore not the "master race" talked about by nazis and most traditional white supremist organisations.

Sorry, excuse my previous outburst because this suddenly makes everything okay. As long as it's not "the whites" in charge. If your argument was that scientific studies proved that blacks were 15% more intelligent than whites based on skin colour it wouldn't make it any less racist just because IT'S THE BLACKS THEY ARE SMARTER. Or in your case THE EAST ASIANS THOSE CRAZY JAPS AND THEIR TECHOLOGICAL ADVANCEMENTS...

Quote
The fact that different races have different mentalities and intelligences is a widely accepted fact and is proven by every study ever done on intelligence difference between races.
 

Widely accepted since when? I don't know a single person in real life or on the media that would seriously agree with this or even condone this kind of a statement without feeling pretty awkward or disgusted. Maybe based on the fact that some countries don't get the billions of dollars needed to find university educations let alone SCHOOL SYSTEMS full stop but not anything along the lines that skin colour is genetically the basis for your intelligence.

Have to go and watch TV now... I'll finish this later.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on May 11, 2008, 10:03:54 pm
http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/journals/pppl/200504/2/235-2.html

we talked about how silly this was in the other topic, but the ranges for the average black intelligence in this article range from 70 to 85. this would make a good proportion of blacks legally mentally retarded
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 11, 2008, 10:15:09 pm
http://taxa.epi.umn.edu/~mbmiller/journals/pppl/200504/2/235-2.html

we talked about how silly this was in the other topic, but the ranges for the average black intelligence in this article range from 70 to 85. this would make a good proportion of blacks legally mentally retarded

That's probably due to these guys using Richard "fuck the weak" Lynn as a data source, who also claims that certain african desert tribes have an average IQ of 54, and are therefore retarded and can be out-thought by eight-year-olds.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: 4Dsheep on May 11, 2008, 10:52:42 pm
As a biology student, I have actually shot a sideway glance at genetics once or twice. First off, I'd like you to know that yes, you're quite wrong, and no, not just because a monkey could formulate your arguments better.

One of the basics of genetics is the concept of 'norm of reaction'. It states that while, yes, the genotype (DNA) dictates the phenotype (any measurable trait of the organism), the genotype is entirely dependent on the environment to function. You are not going to be smart just because your DNA says so if the brain grain is sold out. Inserted shit does not come out as pure liquid heaven. Any differences in genetic makeup between humans are so fucking tiny they're completely irrelevant (and you're an bloody imbecile for even considering it).

A certain demographic might statistically, on average, happen to be less good at taking a test which might show correlation with something else that could just as easily be attributed to social constructs... but in the entire convoluted thing you have never mentioned anything that even remotely falls under genetics.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Bisse on May 11, 2008, 11:04:49 pm
Any differences in genetic makeup between humans are so fucking tiny they're completely irrelevant (and you're an bloody imbecile for even considering it).
Oh really then I would like to hear your explanation for (NWS NMS) Harlequin (http://images.google.com/images?q=Harlequin%20fetus&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) Fetus (http://www.scalyskin.org/content.cfm?ContentID=99&ColumnID=14)
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Xeno|Soft on May 11, 2008, 11:09:35 pm
ewww dude warning next time :( I'm going to feel sad for a few days now.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: jamie on May 11, 2008, 11:09:59 pm
Oh really then I would like to hear your explanation for (NWS NMS) Harlequin (http://images.google.com/images?q=Harlequin%20fetus&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) Fetus (http://www.scalyskin.org/content.cfm?ContentID=99&ColumnID=14)

holy fucking shit that is terrifying and really upsetting!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Pasty on May 11, 2008, 11:13:26 pm
Oh really then I would like to hear your explanation for (NWS NMS) Harlequin (http://images.google.com/images?q=Harlequin%20fetus&ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&sa=N&tab=wi) Fetus (http://www.scalyskin.org/content.cfm?ContentID=99&ColumnID=14)

aaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 11, 2008, 11:16:11 pm
There is no connection between a birth defect and calling a race stupid.


Stay on topic how hard is that to understand? fuck
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ase on May 11, 2008, 11:18:34 pm
ahaha did you just try to link genetic disposition and MUTATIONS hahaha
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: gjw1uk on May 11, 2008, 11:26:25 pm
There are people who still haven't seen Harlequin fetus?  Click the link and get it over with. 

That said, they're right.  4Dsheep was talking about the genetic makeup between different populations of humans, and he/she is right, there is very little difference between two humans of any population.  In fact, almost all behavioral differences between populations are determined by culture and upbringing.  If you need a source, this is information that can be found in any modern biology or human psychology book.   

The birth defect of Harlequin Fetus has nothing to do with this.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Xeno|Soft on May 11, 2008, 11:35:02 pm
genetics is only "tiny" on the grandscale?, but what about the varaibles that genetics controls 100%?
Like the length of my arms, in boxing everyone knows the person with the farther reach will dominate.
What about my hieght, everyone knows that the taller I am the more advanatage I have in a game of basketball. And the shorter I am the better I am at ice skating.
I mean, I suppose those don't seem like big "differences" but to me these differences riddle everything we do.

I mean, Is is racist to say that asains are usualy shorter than black people?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 12:15:02 am
4DSheep since you are educated in terms of biology I would love for you to scientificially disprove my flatmate.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Ghost_Aspergers on May 12, 2008, 12:17:53 am
We get it Xeno|Soft. You're black, and you want people to acknowledge your physical prowess over non blackies.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 12, 2008, 12:44:01 am
genetics is only "tiny" on the grandscale?, but what about the varaibles that genetics controls 100%?
Like the length of my arms, in boxing everyone knows the person with the farther reach will dominate.
What about my hieght, everyone knows that the taller I am the more advanatage I have in a game of basketball. And the shorter I am the better I am at ice skating.
I mean, I suppose those don't seem like big "differences" but to me these differences riddle everything we do.

I mean, Is is racist to say that asains are usualy shorter than black people?

unlike a lot of people I won't say there is no genetic component because you know, of course there is. however it's less because Asians are predisposed to be tall and more that taller Asians as a whole don't breed. also let's not forget we are taking a very broad stance at Asians but I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.

the question is whether genetics is destiny, and it clearly isn't but it can affect things, and then the subquestion is whether intelligence can be genetically determined or if it really has an effect. it can be, BUT only in abnormalities such as Down's Syndrome. for instance, we still have no idea how to MAKE GENIUSES, those kids that can learn calc at the age of five. intelligence can be predicted with those outliers like Down's or whatever, but to state that a race will have a predisposition towards intelligence or against it is ludicrous and doesn't understand the fundamentals of biology, genetics, or evolution.

basically aside from some more or less arbitrary physical characteristics (including a predisposition to, say, be slightly taller or to have more melanin) genetics has no line in human race, and the biological definition of race does not fit the construct we've used.

this kind of subtlety is beyond Afura's roommate though!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Marmot on May 12, 2008, 12:59:52 am
Well I ain't biology expert but biologists today generally use a term called "clines" rather than races, because clines do not necessarily conform the old notions of races, etc.

Anyway, even if we spics and negroes are in average  worse at calc or whatever than the mighty aryan man, there is nothing "political" about it. its like making a study of fat men's mathematical prowess, and then concluding that fat people tend to do worse in math, and therefore making a political statement about it. Same about tall people, people with curly hair, etc. Only bigots make political statements about it. 
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Mama Luigi on May 12, 2008, 01:13:24 am
That Harlequin Fetus thing actually didn't really SHOCK or DISGUST me that much... it's just sad but not really that gut-wrenching.

Nothing as bad as kids in sandbox that's for damn sure.

EDIT: Oh my sorry we're back on topic disregard this post  :fogetshh:
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 12, 2008, 01:52:49 am
Here's an interesting and mildly terrifying site I found on some of the dehumanising effects of the whole 'genetic destiny' idea: http://www.sntp.net/eugenics/genetics_1.htm .
Highlights include:

"With fear of crime replacing communism as America's number one threat, academics who believe that genes dictate destiny have commanded the kind of government attention and support once reserved for rocket scientists. Their views on saving America from the hereditarily defective are increasingly influencing federal research priorities and public policy."

"In 1992, for example, the National Academy of Sciences and the National Research Council issued a 400 page report titled "Understanding and Preventing Violence." Funded in part by the Centers for Disease Control, the U.S. Justice Department, and the National Science Foundation, the report called for more attention to "biological and genetic factors in violent crime." In particular it called for more research on "new pharmaceuticals that reduce violent behavior"."

"Jensen attacked Head Start programs, claiming the problem with black children is that they have an average IQ of only 85 and that no amount of social engineering would improve their performance. Jensen urged "eugenic foresight" as the only solution."

"Blacks are at one extreme, Rushton claims, because they produce large numbers of offspring but offer them little care [...] Despite Rushton’s controversial race theories, he has been embraced by the scientific mainstream, having been elected a fellow of the American Association for the Advancement of Science, and the American, British, and Canadian Psychological Associations."

""Blacks... are reproducing more rapidly than whites. I have seen it estimated that 25% of the population will be black and less than 50% white by the middle of the next century. This contingency was not foreseen by the founding fathers, and it is an open question whether liberal democracy can be sustained by a population whose mean intelligence and self-restraint fall sufficiently below Caucasoid norms." Dr. Levin’s solution is to slow black population growth by ending public assistance."

"Time, U.S. News and World Report, and the New York Times, among other publications, and various TV programs have reported Bouchard’s conclusions that shyness, political conservatism, dedication to hard work, orderliness, intimacy, extroversion, conformity, and a host of other social traits are largely heritable. the scientific data and methods of analysis upon which his conclusions are based have to date never been released for objective scrutiny.
Nevertheless, the prestigious journal Science invited Bouchard to contribute a key article in its June 17, 1994 edition, which included an editorial reporting that a "new consensus" had been reached among behavioral scientists in the nature vs. nurture debate: genes dominate."

And some more on the 'Violence Initiative' from the second quote. I believe it's been shut down since, but it's still interesting to read: http://www.plp.org/pamphlets/violinit.html . Key line:

""[...] to try to find out who might be more likely to go on to becoming labeled eventually as delinquent or criminal...identifying at-risk kids at a very early age before they have become criminalized." These children (some 100,000 or more of them) and their families would then be subjected to psychiatric intervention -- mainly drug therapies."

And finally,

"What is especially dangerous about Rushton is his influence on mainstream public policy. His racist research to portray Blacks as genetically inferior in mental capacity has been used as a weapon to justify denying employment and equal education and economic status against Blacks." - http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=130&Itemid=29  (http://www.onepeoplesproject.com/index.php?option=content&task=view&id=130&Itemid=29)

So, yeah, just in case anyone was thinking that believing in genetic destiny doesn't automatically make you an evil fuck...

EDIT: Also, in case anyone thought all that stuff about 'genes dominate' proved that it was a valid argument:
“…although Rushton's writings and public speeches instill the vision of Blacks as small-brained, oversexed criminals who multiply at a fast rate and are afflicted with mental disease, his views are neither based on a bona fide scientific review of literature nor on contemporary scientific methodology. His dogma of bioevolutionary inferiority of Negroids is not supported by empirical evidence.” - http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2004/09/portrait_of_a_r.html  (http://foreigndispatches.typepad.com/dispatches/2004/09/portrait_of_a_r.html)

"Some of Rushton's references to scientific literature with respects to racial differences in sexual characteristics turned out to be references to a nonscientific semipornographic book and to an article in the Penthouse Forum." - Zack Cernovsky, journal of black studies

"Steven Cronshaw and colleagues wrote in a paper for the International Journal of Selection and Assessment in 2006 that psychologists should critically examine the science employed in Rushton's race-realist research. Through a re-analysis of the validity criteria for test bias using data reported in the Rushton et al. paper they assert that the testing methods were in fact biased against Black Africans. They disagree with other aspects of Rushton's methodology such as the use of non-equivalent groups in test samples."

"Rushton is the most dubious of Bakalár’s sources; he has been criticized repeatedly for misrepresenting data and selectively citing and misinterpreting sources. This is significant in terms of Bakalár’s book, which relies heavily on Rushton’s ideas and research, most notably his study, "The IQ of Gypsies in Central Europe." Interestingly, neither Rushton nor Bakalár carried out any primary research or fieldwork, but based their scientific claims on the papers of other researchers." - http://www.geocities.com/sailerfraud/articles/rushton.html

"It is in a way personal and political propaganda. There is no basis to his scientific research." - the excellently named Hermann Helmuth

"Because Rushton was consistently rejected by the scientific community for his faulty empirical data and unscientific research methods, his sole source to fund his racist research program was the fascist group, the Pioneer Fund."

“Rushton's research has been widely criticized, however, and other studies have contradicted many of his claims.” - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/R-selection

"Rushton's theory is based on an attempt to extend the r/K selection theory to humans. He explains the patterns in the table by arguing that while all humans display extremely K-selected behavior, the races vary in the degree to which they exhibit that behavior. He argues that Negroids use a strategy more toward an r-selected strategy (produce more offspring, but provide less care for them) while Mongoloids use the K strategy most (produce fewer offspring but provide more care for them), with Caucasoids exhibiting intermediate tendencies in this area. He argues that Caucasoids evolved more toward a K-selected breeding strategy than Negroids because of the harsher and colder weather encountered in Europe, while the same held true to a greater extent for Mongoloids.
Rushton's work is prominent in race and intelligence research, but his r/K selection theory is the subject of much more criticism and accusations than found even in this controversial field. For example, in a 1996 review of the book, anthropologist C. Loring Brace wrote that "Race, Evolution, and Behavior is an amalgamation of bad biology and inexcusable anthropology. It is not science but advocacy, and advocacy of 'racialism'" (Brace 1996). Brace argues that Rushton assumes the existence of three biological races with no evidence except Rushton's speculation as to what an extraterrestrial visitor to Earth would think." - http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/J_Philippe_Rushton_-_Works/id/1519481

"Rushton sources, such as semi-pornographic books and the Penthouse magazine, have been dismissed by other researchers, or have been criticized as extremely biased and inadequate reviews of the literature, or simply false [5]. There have also been many other criticisms of the theory [6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. Actual recent data show that blacks are not more psychopathic [13], nor do they differ in from whites when testing for the big five personality traits [14], differences in sex hormones between whites and East Asians are best explained by environmental differences [15], and the fundamental prediction of the theory that blacks have a higher frequency of twins is incorrect [16]." - http://www.experiencefestival.com/a/J_Philippe_Rushton_-_Works/id/1519481

Possibly overkill, but I just can't get enough of Rushton and his wacky psychopathic 'science'...
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 12, 2008, 01:58:14 am
man that first site has a SAY NO TO PSYCHIATRY image thats kind of dumb.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 12, 2008, 02:27:57 am
man that first site has a SAY NO TO PSYCHIATRY image thats kind of dumb.

Shit, I didn't see that... Goddamn hippies, now they're just a paranoid unreliable source... Still, a lot of the stuff they said in the article holds up, so I think I'm good.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 03:30:18 am
Ok he's about to post in the next hour. Prepare yourselves!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Wil on May 12, 2008, 03:39:12 am
I'm so incredibly excited...

I get sick of people who cite a single obscure piece of research, and ignore the other mounds of contradicting evidence.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 03:44:54 am
hahaha (http://christianparty.net/pollbegyptianrace.png)
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Paige_28 on May 12, 2008, 06:18:58 am
There's a reason that organisms that reproduce sexually are generally superior to those which are asexual. Sexual beings are able to combine genetic traits, and evolution (which, by the sound of him, Afura's flatmate probably doesn't believe in, but lets not go there) slowly weeds out the bad and promotes the good. The greater the range of possible partners means the more selection of genetic traits to be honed. Diversity therefore leads to an overall improvement of the species.

So those who claim that inter-racial breeding is 'polluting' a race are encouraging the denigration of their own race by limiting the scope for the natural mingling of genes which got us to to where we are at now anyway. If people like that were around when we were still all dragging our knuckles on the cave-floor, the wheel would never have been invented. But if you want to stagnate and have your kids be retarded hicks while the rest of us have genetically advanced offspring, be my guest...
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Paige_28 on May 12, 2008, 06:20:12 am
see: http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2001-10/uoc--sva101701.php
for evidence...
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 07:47:51 am
1. A lot of you seem to be getting off topic.  This debate is about whether intelligence and behaviour are determined entirely by environment, or alternatively that it is a combination of environment and genetics.  As a consequence of the latter races which have been seperated for tens of thousands of years obviously having greater genetic difference also have greater difference in intelligence.  Noone from the beginning ever suggested that behaviour or intelligence are determined entirely by genes and not at all by environment.

2. The difference in IQ between races is accepted by everyone who has taken 5 minutes out of their life to look into it.  Heres just one site with data on it http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&fuseaction=showUIDAbstract&uid=2001-01339-002 but if you dont think its enough or want more evidence just search "iq difference races" or something similar in any search engine.  You'll find hundreds of web pages telling you exactly the same thing.
heres another one http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/060423_lynn.htm

3.  Some are saying the actual difference in genotype between races is very low.  Well if you look at the percentage as a whole this would seem to be true (99.9% of genes are common to humans) but if you look at it relative to other things it doesn't seem like such a big gap.  For example that humans also share 99.4% of their genes with chimps.  Ouch that blows that theory out of the water.  If any other species has the same genetic variation between them as humans do between races they're defined as sub-species. http://www.goodrumj.com/RFaqHTML.html this link gives some comparisons in genetic variation between humans and other mammals.

4. It seems that not everyone is happy with the credibility of the article i linked to originally.  The fact that the authors are both doctors of psychology and belong to numerous reputable institutions including american, canadian and british psychological associations means nothing apparently when your views go against what certain people want to believe in.  Some have argued that their references are all either outdated or to themselves.  Have any of you even read the article? There are over 230 lines of references mostly from reputable journals.  Not to mention that referencing ur own past work is done by practically all scientists, it saves them having to prove the same data every time they write a paper; any of you who actually study science would know this.  And his references all being outdated is also rubbish.  Theres nothing wrong with using references from decades before as long as the methods used to obtain the data are still current and repeatable. Fuck for all of you people who are worried about just ignore everything with refernces from before 1990 and uv still got more proof than you'll know what to do with.

The american psychological association is a large respectable organisation who screens any work they publish, pretty much the same as every major scientific journal.  There's no way they'd publish an article which was just "unfounded white supremist views".

Anyway let's ignore that article and look at some other research discussing exactly the same thing from unbiased perspectives.
http://www.globalpolitician.com/24460-iq-race
http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/

Everyone clings to the egalitarian view that all races are equal in every way.  Hey guys, grow a fucking brain. You really think races that are separated geographically for tens of thousands of years and differ in genes and physical traits incredibly some how ended up with exactly the same brains.  Wow that would be pretty amazing huh.  The view that race has not effect whatsoever on intelligence was made up based on NOT ONE THREAD OF RESEARCH but rather on the fact that it’s what people wanted to believe.  Now that research is proving this entirely wrong people people don’t want to believe it.  They don’t quote evidence to oppose it... because there is none.  Only views that it’s a racist thing to say.  Well cry me a fucking river!

So while these "equally intelligent" races developed on their different continents some, such as caucasians, developed agriculture, government and philosophy.  They developed steel works and complicated manufacturing, built ships, learnt science and built cities.  Meanwhile others lived in mudhuts and chased zebras around with spears.  Come on people you've got to be kidding me.  Ofcourse we're different.  Before they met white people sub-saharan africans were only a very small step up from monkeys.

Liberal retarded viewpoint: “Although every race has evolved independently and are entirely different biologically they all have exactly the same brains.  Although this has no evidence supporting it and a lot disproving it, this is irrelevant, because we don‘t want to believe it”

It’s like going back a few hundred years and trying to tell people the earth is round.
“That can’t be right”
“You’re a crazy extremist”

Well guess what all you fucking hippies, it’s a fact, races are different.

Fucking live with it.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 07:53:35 am
oh asians are entirely different biologically from caucasians huh.  GOOD TO KNOW.  man the best part about you is that you're so set in your stupid unsubstantiated pseudopscience claims that no one in the community who isn't a laughing stock respects or adheres to, that you actually act self-righteous and condescending towards the people telling you you're an idiot.  they.... they don't see the truth......... they been brainwashed by their sissy liberal ideals...
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 07:54:16 am
Oh and btw I know half of you won't bother linking to those sites but heres some useful evidence based on research conducted by medical institutions:

 Studies on over 700 participants show that individuals with larger brain volumes have higher IQ scores. About two dozen studies using magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) to measure the volume of the human brain have found an overall correlation with IQ of greater than.40 (Rushton & Ankney, 1996; P. A. Vernon, Wickett, Bazana, & Stelmack, 2000). The correlation of.40 using MRI is much higher than the.20 correlation found in earlier research using simple head size measures, although the.20 correlation is also reliable and significant. Rushton and Ankney (1996) reviewed 32 studies correlating measures of external head size with IQ scores or with measures of educational and occupational achievement, and they found a mean r =.20 for people of all ages, both sexes, and various ethnic backgrounds, including African Americans.

 The most likely reason why larger brains are, on average, more intelligent than smaller brains is that they contain more neurons and synapses, which make them more efficient. Haier et al. (1995) tested the brain efficiency hypothesis by using MRI to measure brain volume and glucose metabolic rate to measure glucose uptake (an indicator of energy use). They found a correlation of −.58 between glucose metabolic rate and IQ, suggesting that more intelligent individuals have more efficient brains because they use less energy in performing a given cognitive task. Several other studies supporting the brain-size/efficiency model were reviewed in Gignac, Vernon, and Wickett (2003). In any individual, however, energy use increases with the increasing complexity of the cognitive task.

 Estimates from twin studies indicate that genes contribute from 50% to 90% of the variance to both cranial capacities based on external head size measures and to brain volume measured by MRI (Bartley, Jones, & Weinberger, 1997; Pennington et al., 2000; Posthuma et al., 2002; Rushton & Osborne, 1995; Thompson et al., 2001). Common genetic effects mediate from 50% to 100% of the brain-size/IQ correlation (Pennington et al., 2000; Posthuma et al., 2002). Studies have also shown that correlations between brain size and IQ also hold true within families as well as between families (Gignac et al., 2003; Jensen, 1994; Jensen & Johnson, 1994), which also implies shared genetic effects. However, one study that examined only sisters failed to find the within-family relation (Schoenemann, Budinger, Sarich, & Wang, 2000). Families with larger brains overall tend to have higher IQs and, within a family, the siblings with the larger brains tend to have higher IQ scores. The within-family finding is of special interest because it controls for most of the sources of variance that distinguish families, such as social class, styles of child rearing, and general nutrition, that differ between families.

 Race differences in average brain size are observable at birth. A study by Rushton (1997) analyzed recorded head circumference measurements and IQ scores from 50,000 children in the Collaborative Perinatal Project followed from birth to age 7 (Broman, Nichols, Shaugnessy, & Kennedy, 1987). Using the head circumference measures to calculate cranial capacity at birth, 4 months, 1 year, and 7 years, at each of these ages, the Asian American children averaged larger cranial volumes than did the White children, who averaged larger cranial volumes than did the Black children. Within each race, cranial capacity correlated with IQ scores. By age 7, the Asian American children averaged an IQ of 110; the White children, 102; and the Black children 90. Because the Asian American children were the shortest in stature and the lightest in weight while the Black children were the tallest in stature and the heaviest in weight, these average race differences in brain-size/IQ relations were not due to body size.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 07:57:16 am
I'm so incredibly excited...

I get sick of people who cite a single obscure piece of research, and ignore the other mounds of contradicting evidence.

Show me some contradicting evidence fuckwit
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 08:45:40 am
Show us a link to the site you got it off


Quote
They developed steel works and complicated manufacturing, built ships, learnt science and built cities.  Meanwhile others lived in mudhuts and chased zebras around with spears.  Come on people you've got to be kidding me.  Ofcourse we're different.  Before they met white people sub-saharan africans were only a very small step up from monkeys.

you are the best

also dude did you bother to click this:

http://www.hirhome.com/rr/rrcontents.htm

Quote
A great deal of the racist pseudo-science attacking blacks and other minorities has been sponsored by something called the Pioneer Fund, an outfit tracing its roots to the American eugenics movement of the first half of the twentieth century
and more.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 08:50:28 am
That wasn't referenced just common knowledge.  Read an encyclopaedia...
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Wil on May 12, 2008, 09:02:02 am
No, you're not getting the point that equality among races isn't a matter of OH WELL THIS GROUP OF PEOPLE SCORES HIGHER ON AN IQ TEST THAN THIS GROUP, it's a moral claim. OF COURSE not every single fucking person on the planet is equal, but this doesn't mean they shouldn't be treated equally. You're ignoring the difference between a descriptive and normative claim, and completely trash the point of the "stupid liberal viewpoint." The things you are saying here are not only laughable, they're horrifying and completely ignore what things like equality and egalitarianism ARE: MORAL POSITIONS.

“Although every race has evolved independently and are entirely different biologically they all have exactly the same brains.  Although this has no evidence supporting it and a lot disproving it, this is irrelevant, because we don‘t want to believe it”
This ISN'T the liberal viewpoint in regards to things like EQUALITY, of course people have different brains, some people are smarter than others, etc, the liberal point of view is that HEY EVERYONE HAS A RIGHT NOT TO BE HARASSED AND TORMENTED, ENSLAVED ETC ON THE BASIS OF THEIR RACE

BUT WHATEVER IT'S A HUGE HIPPIE CONSPIRACY LMAO

I can't believe you take this to be some kind of PROFOUND knowledge comparable to knowing that the earth isn't flat. REALLY? WELL NOW WE KNOW SOMETHING REALLY COOL. You come on here and yell about your really boring claims and try to lump it against important and significant ethical beliefs that have granted millions of human beings the right to live with equal opportunity amongst other different humans, completely ignoring that whether or not intelligence level correlates with race has nothing to do with the philosophical perspective of things like egalitarianism that you've managed to trash alongside your hamfisted discussion.
Quote
Show me some contradicting evidence fuckwit
ppkay wait right here i'll brb and get it okay?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: fatty on May 12, 2008, 09:08:33 am
Define intelligence.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 09:15:40 am
You've entirely missed the point of this debate.  I'm talking about the difference in intelligence between races.  Not condoning treating people badly based on the colour of their skin.

Why's it so hard for people to get that iq differences between races doesn't mean I'm gonna go lynch me a nigger.  It doesn't mean i'm an entirely insensitive bastard who thinks certain races should be treated any worse than others.  Although I believe they have different average intelligences it doesn't mean I think blacks or any other race are any less human than I am.  I tried to outline this in my first post but everyone had the "lets bash the racist" mentality and it didn't get me anywhere.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 12, 2008, 09:17:51 am
2. The difference in IQ between races is accepted by everyone who has taken 5 minutes out of their life to look into it.  Heres just one site with data on it http://psycnet.apa.org/?fa=main.doiLanding&fuseaction=showUIDAbstract&uid=2001-01339-002 but if you dont think its enough or want more evidence just search "iq difference races" or something similar in any search engine.  You'll find hundreds of web pages telling you exactly the same thing.
heres another one http://www.vdare.com/Sailer/060423_lynn.htm


Man, you really don't get it at all, do you? The first link there is a meta-analysis. That means they take already existing scientific data and look for patterns... Which would be fine if said data hadn't been fudged, altered, and generally made up by a massive amount of racist shitheads over the years. Lynn is generally considered to be the defining source in data for this, and Lynn is also a racist fuck. Here is a guy who believes who believes “we do need to think realistically in terms of "phasing out" of such peoples. If the world is to evolve more better humans, then obviously someone has to make way for them. ... To think otherwise is mere sentimentality”, and you're treating his research as ABSOLUTELY 100% CREDIBLE AND UNBIASED.
Incidentally, that second page you linked to was part of the anti-immigration, white nationalist site VDARE. So yeah, those guys are well qualified to objectively observe data.

3.  Some are saying the actual difference in genotype between races is very low.  Well if you look at the percentage as a whole this would seem to be true (99.9% of genes are common to humans) but if you look at it relative to other things it doesn't seem like such a big gap.  For example that humans also share 99.4% of their genes with chimps.  Ouch that blows that theory out of the water.  If any other species has the same genetic variation between them as humans do between races they're defined as sub-species. http://www.goodrumj.com/RFaqHTML.html this link gives some comparisons in genetic variation between humans and other mammals.

So? The question isn't 'are blacks different than whites', the question is 'are blacks less intelligent than whites', and despite your whining and condescending I still haven't seen any kind of proper data to support this idea. If you're wondering what 'proper' data is, here's a hint: data that wasn't gathered off an issue of Penthouse, as Rushton admitted his study of race and sexuality was.

4. It seems that not everyone is happy with the credibility of the article i linked to originally.  The fact that the authors are both doctors of psychology and belong to numerous reputable institutions including american, canadian and british psychological associations means nothing apparently when your views go against what certain people want to believe in.  Some have argued that their references are all either outdated or to themselves.  Have any of you even read the article? There are over 230 lines of references mostly from reputable journals.  Not to mention that referencing ur own past work is done by practically all scientists, it saves them having to prove the same data every time they write a paper; any of you who actually study science would know this.  And his references all being outdated is also rubbish.  Theres nothing wrong with using references from decades before as long as the methods used to obtain the data are still current and repeatable. Fuck for all of you people who are worried about just ignore everything with refernces from before 1990 and uv still got more proof than you'll know what to do with

So basically your defence is BUT THEY'RE DOCTORS!!! I don't feel like mocking Rushton and Jensen for the fourth time today, so I'd suggest you actually look at some of the stuff I posted. They're racist shills, who get their information off other racist shills (our old friend Lynn again), who fudge the data (so a half-assed and biased study from the 20s is given exactly as much scientific weight as one from today) and who leave out any results that they think contradict their hypothesis. I'll just post three samples here:

Steven Cronshaw and colleagues wrote in a paper for the International Journal of Selection and Assessment in 2006 that psychologists should critically examine the science employed in Rushton's race-realist research. Through a re-analysis of the validity criteria for test bias using data reported in the Rushton et al. paper they assert that the testing methods were in fact biased against Black Africans. They disagree with other aspects of Rushton's methodology such as the use of non-equivalent groups in test samples.

Lisa Suzuki and Joshua Aronson of New York University wrote in 2005 that Rushton has ignored evidence that fails to support his position that IQ test score gaps represent a genetic racial hierarchy. He has not changed his position on this matter for 30 years.

And once more, since I think it's hilarious:

Rushton sources, such as semi-pornographic books and the Penthouse magazine, have been dismissed by other researchers, or have been criticized as extremely biased and inadequate reviews of the literature, or simply false [5]. There have also been many other criticisms of the theory [6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. Actual recent data show that blacks are not more psychopathic [13], nor do they differ in from whites when testing for the big five personality traits [14], differences in sex hormones between whites and East Asians are best explained by environmental differences [15], and the fundamental prediction of the theory that blacks have a higher frequency of twins is incorrect [16].

The american psychological association is a large respectable organisation who screens any work they publish, pretty much the same as every major scientific journal.  There's no way they'd publish an article which was just "unfounded white supremist views".

I guess you're right there, since there's no way a large and prestigious organisation would ever accept something without any scientific merit. Nope, couldn't happen. Totally inconcievable.
http://technology.newscientist.com/channel/tech/mg18624963.700.html

Anyway let's ignore that article and look at some other research discussing exactly the same thing from unbiased perspectives.
http://www.globalpolitician.com/24460-iq-race
http://www.slate.com/id/2178122/entry/2178123/


Other articles on the first site include 'Multicuturalists Gone Wild', 'Whites Not Allowed', and 'Affirmative Action Leads To Censorship, Bureaucracy, And Even Death', while the article itself believes we should use this information as an excuse to cut school funding for blacks. How exactly is that 'unbiased'?
The other article is laughable. It starts ominously with "But if you choose to fight the evidence, here's what you're up against", before quoting... The original Rushton/Jensen study you linked to already, and which I've already shown to be a massive pile of horseshit. This does actually underline my point though, which is that the only people who accept that paper are the ones who take all the data and statistical assumptions at face value.

Everyone clings to the egalitarian view that all races are equal in every way.  Hey guys, grow a fucking brain. You really think races that are separated geographically for tens of thousands of years and differ in genes and physical traits incredibly some how ended up with exactly the same brains.  Wow that would be pretty amazing huh.  The view that race has not effect whatsoever on intelligence was made up based on NOT ONE THREAD OF RESEARCH but rather on the fact that it’s what people wanted to believe.  Now that research is proving this entirely wrong people people don’t want to believe it.  They don’t quote evidence to oppose it... because there is none.  Only views that it’s a racist thing to say.  Well cry me a fucking river!

I still can't believe people wanted to keep this debate civil... Also, I fixed your statement:
"The view that race has not effect whatsoever a significant effect on intelligence was made up based on NOT ONE THREAD OF RESEARCH but rather on the fact that it’s what people wanted to believe"
How difficult is this to understand? They made this shit up. Also:
"They don’t quote evidence to oppose it... because there is none."
From a previous response: "There have also been many other criticisms of the theory [6][7][8][9][10][11][12]. Actual recent data show that blacks are not more psychopathic [13], nor do they differ in from whites when testing for the big five personality traits [14], differences in sex hormones between whites and East Asians are best explained by environmental differences [15], and the fundamental prediction of the theory that blacks have a higher frequency of twins is incorrect [16]."
And jesus, would it kill you to actually try to have some shred of dignity? You sound like a whiney 8-year-old. "YOU'RE ALL WRONG AND THIS ALTERED DATA PROVES IT! I HATE YOU! LEAVE ME ALONE!"

So while these "equally intelligent" races developed on their different continents some, such as caucasians, developed agriculture, government and philosophy.  They developed steel works and complicated manufacturing, built ships, learnt science and built cities.  Meanwhile others lived in mudhuts and chased zebras around with spears.  Come on people you've got to be kidding me.  Ofcourse we're different.  Before they met white people sub-saharan africans were only a very small step up from monkeys.

I'm going to be generous here and allow the other members of GW to kick this one to death. I would like to mention, though, "The many achievements of the ancient Egyptians included a system of mathematics, quarrying, surveying and construction techniques that facilitated the building of monumental pyramids, temples and obelisks, faience and glass technology, a practical and effective system of medicine, new forms of literature, irrigation systems and agricultural production techniques, and the earliest known peace treaty.[6] Egypt left a lasting legacy: art and architecture were copied and antiquities paraded around the world, and monumental ruins have inspired the imaginations of tourists and writers for centuries."
Not bad for a bunch of genetically inferior sand-niggers.

Liberal retarded viewpoint: “Although every race has evolved independently and are entirely different biologically they all have exactly the same brains.  Although this has no evidence supporting it and a lot disproving it, this is irrelevant, because we don‘t want to believe it”

Do I really need to go into the whole 'evidence' thing again? Seriously?

It’s like going back a few hundred years and trying to tell people the earth is round.
“That can’t be right”
“You’re a crazy extremist”


Ha! I knew you were going to do this!
See, for anyone who doesn't know, this is a prominent argument among pseudoscientific hacks. The logic behind it goes:
- They laughed at Galileo
- They laughed at me
- Therefore I am Galileo
Can you spot the subtle logical flaw in this argument? Seriously, some scientists were discredited even though they were right. Many, many, many others were discredited because they were completely wrong on every concievable level. The main difference is whether or nor their data can stand any close inspection, and the data by Rushton, Jensen, Lynn, and all the other nazi hacks you mentioned clearly does not.

Well guess what all you fucking hippies, it’s a fact, races are different.

Fucking live with it.


Hahahaha, you fucking pussy. Screaming insults and running away stops being impressive after you leave kindergarten.

I'm not even going to get into the second post, since craniometry has been repeatedly proven false since the victorian era, but regarding the paper by Rushton and Ankney you think so highly of: http://www.cpa.ca/cpasite/userfiles/documents/publications/cjep/petertxt.htm, http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3690/is_199512/ai_n8726828
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 09:27:47 am
You've entirely missed the point of this debate.  I'm talking about the difference in intelligence between races.  Not condoning treating people badly based on the colour of their skin.

 It doesn't mean i'm an entirely insensitive bastard who thinks certain races should be treated any worse than others.  Although I believe they have different average intelligences it doesn't mean I think blacks or any other race are any less human than I am.  I tried to outline this in my first post but everyone had the "lets bash the racist" mentality and it didn't get me anywhere.

Quote
They developed steel works and complicated manufacturing, built ships, learnt science and built cities.  Meanwhile others lived in mudhuts and chased zebras around with spears.  Come on people you've got to be kidding me.  Ofcourse we're different.  Before they met white people sub-saharan africans were only a very small step up from monkeys.

Contradicting yourself.

Quote
you can quote all the left wing black cunts views you like

and again
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Wil on May 12, 2008, 09:31:04 am
Nevermind the vagueness of a word like intelligence, my point is that you really trash liberal egalitarian views on equality with your STUPID LIBERAL VIEWPOINT and FUCKING HIPPIES rhetoric
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 09:38:15 am
Egypt is not sub-saharan for a start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsaharan_Africa
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: fatty on May 12, 2008, 09:38:33 am
You've entirely missed the point of this debate.  I'm talking about the difference in intelligence between races.  Not condoning treating people badly based on the colour of their skin.

Why's it so hard for people to get that iq differences between races doesn't mean I'm gonna go lynch me a nigger.  It doesn't mean i'm an entirely insensitive bastard who thinks certain races should be treated any worse than others.
No-one said that. It's just your lack of understanding of how genetics and biology really work that produce this laughable(and sad) ideology of yours.
Yeah, races are different, yes we can live with it, YES, YOU HAVE A LIGHTER SKIN COLOR THAN I DO, YOU ALSO HAVE DIFFERENT EYE IRISES B-BUT


That's about it really. All members of the species Homo Sapiens have the same thinking capacity, we are all born with the same brain, what we do with it after we are born is IRRELEVANT to our genetic make-up.
Egypt is not sub-saharan for a start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsaharan_Africa
What does this have to do with anything


also:
Define intelligence.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 09:41:25 am
how is that contradicting myself?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 12, 2008, 09:41:59 am
Egypt is not sub-saharan for a start http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Subsaharan_Africa

Seriously, that's the only part of my page-long post about how stupid you are that you're going to dispute? C'mon, the least you can say is that I'm a LIBERAL FUCK who's IGNORING THE EVIDENCE. Please? For me?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Wil on May 12, 2008, 09:42:23 am
Quote
So basically your defence is BUT THEY'RE DOCTORS!!! I don't feel like mocking Rushton and Jensen for the fourth time today, so I'd suggest you actually look at some of the stuff I posted. They're racist shills, who get their information off other racist shills (our old friend Lynn again), who fudge the data (so a half-assed and biased study from the 20s is given exactly as much scientific weight as one from today) and who leave out any results that they think contradict their hypothesis. I'll just post three samples here:

Steven Cronshaw and colleagues wrote in a paper for the International Journal of Selection and Assessment in 2006 that psychologists should critically examine the science employed in Rushton's race-realist research. Through a re-analysis of the validity criteria for test bias using data reported in the Rushton et al. paper they assert that the testing methods were in fact biased against Black Africans. They disagree with other aspects of Rushton's methodology such as the use of non-equivalent groups in test samples.

Lisa Suzuki and Joshua Aronson of New York University wrote in 2005 that Rushton has ignored evidence that fails to support his position that IQ test score gaps represent a genetic racial hierarchy. He has not changed his position on this matter for 30 years.
He doesn't have to go to the things you've posted, all he has to do is look at the things HE'S posted himself, like where it says on the Slate.com article:

"For the past five years, J. Philippe Rushton has been president of the Pioneer Fund, an organization dedicated to "the scientific study of heredity and human differences." During this time, the fund has awarded at least $70,000 to the New Century Foundation. To get a flavor of what New Century stands for, check out its publications on crime ("Everyone knows that blacks are dangerous") and heresy ("Unless whites shake off the teachings of racial orthodoxy they will cease to be a distinct people"). New Century publishes a magazine called American Renaissance, which preaches segregation. Rushton routinely speaks at its conferences.

I was negligent in failing to research and report this. I'm sorry. I owe you better than that."
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 09:52:19 am
He's pretty furious but hopefully he will try argue with you thecatamites. I for one am going to sleep with one eye open, the jews are everywhere.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Paige_28 on May 12, 2008, 09:52:56 am
At the height of European colonialism there were numerous experiments undertaken to prove different levels of intelligence between races, such as filling skulls of different races with grapeshot. Inferences about the intelligence of different races were made by measuring  the capacity each races' skull could hold. Of course, the more grapeshot meant the more space for brains...this was seen as totally valid science and was performed by esteemed scientists.

The problem is that while we now know that brain mass does not necessarily correlate to greater or less intelligence, in those days it was an acknowledged 'fact'. What happened then (and still happens today), is that scientists make their evidence fit what is currently accepted as truth. It was simply obvious to people in the early 20th Century that black people were less intelligent, and scientists were not looking to see whether or not this was true, but rather looking for new ways to confirm this.

'Facts' and 'truth' are incredibly relative, and subject to constant change in society as we gain new knowledge, and as our contexts change. I think this is why you're on shaky ground. The IQ test has lost a lot of credibility in modern scientific circles, and is rarely used anymore. If you are going to argue this point, you might want to find yourself some newer science.

Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 09:54:46 am
If its too much dude just take one person on or something.


thecatamites maybe?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 09:57:14 am
Ok guys you can try to discredit them all you like.  Hey their views are hated by a lot of people so I'm sure you'll have no problem finding quotes from people "discrediting" their research.  Hey probably any black guy with a doctorate will be happy to add his name to the list.  But is there any evidence to support your point of view? any evidence at all? trying to disprove my point of view doesn't do this.  Can anyone name an iq test that blacks have actually scored equal to whites?  How do you explain that blacks whites and hispanics all adopted into upper class white families with the same average income and given the same learning opportunities still have the same order of intelligence from the age of 3.  Shit that might be a hard one.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Paige_28 on May 12, 2008, 09:59:58 am
"How do you explain that blacks whites and hispanics all adopted into upper class white families with the same average income and given the same learning opportunities still have the same order of intelligence from the age of 3."
What do you mean? That they all have the same IQ from 3? How do you measure that?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Wil on May 12, 2008, 10:04:30 am
Oh yah, the author of that Slate.com article wrote a follow up (http://www.slate.com/id/2190573/) seven days ago. It's pretty interesting (I did also find the other one interesting as well.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:05:27 am
Sorry should've been clearer, by that I meant asians smarter than whites, smarter than hispanics, smarter than blacks.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: fatty on May 12, 2008, 10:05:59 am
Ok guys you can try to discredit them all you like.  Hey their views are hated by a lot of people so I'm sure you'll have no problem finding quotes from people "discrediting" their research.  Hey probably any black guy with a doctorate will be happy to add his name to the list.  But is there any evidence to support your point of view? any evidence at all? trying to disprove my point of view doesn't do this.  Can anyone name an iq test that blacks have actually scored equal to whites?  How do you explain that blacks whites and hispanics all adopted into upper class white families with the same average income and given the same learning opportunities still have the same order of intelligence from the age of 3.  Shit that might be a hard one.
asjdhgasjdgajdg what



You just can't understand that intelligence is not a genetic trait at all, the environment around you affects the way your brain "evolves" as you grow up, meaning that if you grow up in a xenophobic and racist society that doesn't WANT you to be equally treated simply because of your skin analogy of brown and pink then you are most likely going to be terribly mistreated and neglected, thus unable to score well in an IQ test. And doing well in IQ tests mean that you have the ability to score well in IQ tests-not that you are intelligent.


God, I wish I dumbed it down well enough for you.
(correct me if/where I am wrong)
Sorry should've been clearer, by that I meant asians smarter than whites, smarter than hispanics, smarter than blacks.
man seriously what are you even talking about

WHAT DON'T YOU GET.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Marmot on May 12, 2008, 10:09:46 am
Again, I want to stress that the whole argument is a moot-point.

We retarded spicks and lowbrow negroes may do in average worse in calculus, IQ tests, or whatever. However, whether it is because of genes or social standing, it lacks of any political significance because still there are black people that can do better in IQ tests than loads of mighty Aryans, regardless if in average they do worse. It is like finding a correlation between tall or fat people, and finding out that they do in average worse in IQ tests than the average short, skinny person, and then making a political statement saying that because tall people are in average more stupid we should segregate them.

It has no political significance whatsoever.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:10:03 am
Thats an interesting article Wil.  However, it doesn't say that the data was inaccurate but rather that he regrets taking part in it due to the potential social ramifications
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Marmot on May 12, 2008, 10:10:42 am
Dredd reply to my simple point please!!!!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:13:43 am
Again, I want to stress that the whole argument is a moot-point.

We retarded spicks and lowbrow negroes may do in average worse in calculus, IQ tests, or whatever. However, whether it is because of genes or social standing, it lacks of any political significance because still there are black people that can do better in IQ tests than loads of mighty Aryans, regardless if in average they do worse. It is like finding a correlation between tall or fat people, and finding out that they do in average worse in IQ tests than the average short, skinny person, and then making a political statement saying that because tall people are in average more stupid we should segregate them.

It has no political significance whatsoever.

Can't argue with you there Marmot you're totally right.  This is just about averages and there are some really smart black people out there just like there are some really stupid asian people.  It's all about averages and just because a certain race might be less intelligent on average doesn't really mean that an individual who is part of that race can't achieve just as much or be just as intelligent as someone from any other race.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 10:13:52 am
Thats an interesting article Wil.  However, it doesn't say that the data was inaccurate but rather that he regrets taking part in it due to the potential social ramifications
oh and also that part where he said it was incredibly incomplete and inconclusive and that basing conclusions on the data it presented would be irresponsible, socially and intellectually
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: fatty on May 12, 2008, 10:14:30 am
Thats an interesting article Wil.  However, it doesn't say that the data was inaccurate but rather that he regrets taking part in it due to the potential social ramifications
why do you refuse to reply to most comments on this page

is it because I am a hairy mediterran?


EDIT:also guys give me some racist slurs towards us greeks, all I have been called so far is hairy, which is hardly a slur

EDIT2:http://www.rsdb.org/
Hahaha Olive Nigger hahahahahaha
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 10:14:56 am
btw it's pretty funny how a lot of the past three pages have been UHHH IQ TESTS ARE PRETTY SILLY AND INTELLIGENCE IS NOTORIOUSLY DIFFICULT TO MEASURE and you never seemed to acknowledge that in the slightest
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on May 12, 2008, 10:15:31 am
Oh and btw I know half of you won't bother linking to those sites but heres some useful evidence based on research conducted by medical institutions:

 Studies on over 700 participants show that words words words

this is from the same article you linked too before, and i know because i stopped at this segment and frowned. firstly neuronal pruning is associated with increases in intelligence (babbys aren't geniuses) (I didn't make this up, et al. 2008), and secondly because in THE SAME ARTICLE (Section 10: The Race-Behavior Matrix) he covers how blacks are bigger and mature quicker than whites

if everyone could stop posting WALLS OF CRAP that'd be cool, like if one person makes your point then you might just want to quote it and add your bit, and if you don't have a bit to add then DON'T BRING THAT POINT UP AGAIN

also no-one has brought up stereotype vulnerability (heh heh not even steele heh heh)
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Wil on May 12, 2008, 10:16:12 am
Thats an interesting article Wil.  However, it doesn't say that the data was inaccurate but rather that he regrets taking part in it due to the potential social ramifications
I know it doesn't, it says.. well what headphonics just said, but also addresses how you're viewing and dealing with the entire question.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:17:38 am
why do you refuse to reply to most comments on this page

is it because I am a hairy mediterran?


EDIT:also guys give me some racist slurs towards us greeks, all I have been called so far is hairy, which is hardly a slur

well if you havn't noticed jack its one person arguing with 7 or 8 and i hardly have time to reply before getting something else i have to respond to.  I havn't been responding to you in particular because you are obviously slightly retarded and have no idea of whats going on in the thread.  Perhaps you should sit back and leave this discussion to people with atleast a slight degree of intelligence
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 10:19:50 am
oh and also that part where he said it was incredibly incomplete and inconclusive and that basing conclusions on the data it presented would be irresponsible, socially and intellectually

Quote
This is just about averages and there are some really smart black people out there just like there are some really stupid asian people.  It's all about averages and just because a certain race might be less intelligent on average doesn't really mean that an individual who is part of that race can't achieve just as much or be just as intelligent as someone from any other race.

I like how about five seconds ago you used the term black cunts and then you try be nice about it.

What about how it makes you angry seeing a black guy with a white girl?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: fatty on May 12, 2008, 10:20:35 am
well if you havn't noticed jack its one person arguing with 7 or 8 and i hardly have time to reply before getting something else i have to respond to.  I havn't been responding to you in particular because you are obviously slightly retarded and have no idea of whats going on in the thread.  Perhaps you should sit back and leave this discussion to people with atleast a slight degree of intelligence
:rolleyes:
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Wil on May 12, 2008, 10:21:02 am
well if you havn't noticed jack its one person arguing with 7 or 8 and i hardly have time to reply before getting something else i have to respond to.  I havn't been responding to you in particular because you are obviously slightly retarded and have no idea of whats going on in the thread.  Perhaps you should sit back and leave this discussion to people with atleast a slight degree of intelligence
maybe users with pink names have lower intelligence degrees or something idk?????
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:24:17 am
btw it's pretty funny how a lot of the past three pages have been UHHH IQ TESTS ARE PRETTY SILLY AND INTELLIGENCE IS NOTORIOUSLY DIFFICULT TO MEASURE and you never seemed to acknowledge that in the slightest

Yeh thats a really good point I did address right in my first post though where i talked about the argument that IQ is an abstract social construction.  Pretty much its that you're right that intelligence is hard to define but there is proven correlation between high iq and high success academically, financially and socially.  So although we can not say that such tests mean someone is more "intelligent" we can say that they're likely to score higher academically, financially and socially etc.  Magical negro made the response to this that correlation doesn't imply causation which I havn't responded to yet.  The answer is that I'm not saying it is causation.  If you like we can say the correlation with iq also means correlation with success as these two are correlated together.  You could say that success is actually due to some third external factor that in fact is also correlated with IQ but either way it's the same result.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Kaworu on May 12, 2008, 10:24:58 am
the darker your skin, the lower your IQ.
Guys how can you even argue against this point because it's so true.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:27:04 am
oh and also that part where he said it was incredibly incomplete and inconclusive and that basing conclusions on the data it presented would be irresponsible, socially and intellectually

I like how about five seconds ago you used the term black cunts and then you try be nice about it.

What about how it makes you angry seeing a black guy with a white girl?

If you want to discuss it come out of your room.  I know the reason you made me come on here to discuss is that you were stumped and couldn't prove me wrong and so thought it'd be nice to have an army of people supporting you but this is just getting ridiculous
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on May 12, 2008, 10:29:50 am
 Magical negro made the response to this that correlation doesn't imply causation which I havn't responded to yet.  The answer is that I'm not saying it is causation.  If you like we can say the correlation with iq also means correlation with success as these two are correlated together.  You could say that success is actually due to some third external factor that in fact is also correlated with IQ but either way it's the same result.

you are argueing the genetic component of IQ tests from the fact black people score lower on IQ tests that's causation
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Paige_28 on May 12, 2008, 10:35:36 am
So... you admit that IQ tests are shaky grounds, and that you need to correlate them with real life. Ok. But financial, academic and social (And what does that mean? they go down well at cocktail parties, or what?) success, which you are so often hold up as evidence of lesser intelligence is ignoring the fact that people are constantly discriminated against simply because of their skin colour. It's not that they're dumb, and so can't be CEOs- its that the other members of the board are all white and would prefer them to be janitors...
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:37:32 am
You'd be right if I was basing it entirely on that simple fact but I'm not.  I'm basing it on a combination of factors.  One being the same deviation in IQ after environmental effects have been isolated (in adoption cases).  Since the only two theories to the difference in AVERAGE IQ are environment and genes we can conclude that after eliminating environment, genes is the answer.  This has also been shown by the fact that changing of environment (due to the increase of education and the better environment minorities grow up in compared to 50 years ago) has not changed the standard deviation difference between average IQs of races.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 10:38:27 am
Yeh thats a really good point I did address right in my first post though where i talked about the argument that IQ is an abstract social construction.  Pretty much its that you're right that intelligence is hard to define but there is proven correlation between high iq and high success academically, financially and socially.  So although we can not say that such tests mean someone is more "intelligent" we can say that they're likely to score higher academically, financially and socially etc.  Magical negro made the response to this that correlation doesn't imply causation which I havn't responded to yet.  The answer is that I'm not saying it is causation.  If you like we can say the correlation with iq also means correlation with success as these two are correlated together.  You could say that success is actually due to some third external factor that in fact is also correlated with IQ but either way it's the same result.
none of these have anything to do with intelligence.  modern academia is notoriously misguided and not especially indicative of intelligence, so it doesn't mean anything at all if there's a correlation between iq score and academics, aside from maybe that most iq tests are setup in a way that people who are inclined to do well on them are also inclined to do well in academics because of the similar structure.  note that, again, even this minor correlation doesn't relate to intellect whatsoever.  what's more, it correlates to financial and social success because it correlates to academic success, and academic success in turn correlates to financial success which in turn correlates to social standing.  at no point in time does intelligence ever enter into any of this.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Paige_28 on May 12, 2008, 10:41:37 am
Ok, but this was addressed before; even if you put the kid in another family, you can't remove the colour of their skin, and they'll always be discriminated against for that reason. The only way you could really test this was if society was completely unbiased, and that's just not possible
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 10:43:03 am
yeah he's right buddy.  you act like adoption cases or comparisons between races living in identical economic situations somehow completely eliminate all of the cultural discriminations and stigmas attached to race.  they don't at all, and that's still very much a factor.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:46:12 am
So... you admit that IQ tests are shaky grounds, and that you need to correlate them with real life. Ok. But financial, academic and social (And what does that mean? they go down well at cocktail parties, or what?) success, which you are so often hold up as evidence of lesser intelligence is ignoring the fact that people are constantly discriminated against simply because of their skin colour. It's not that they're dumb, and so can't be CEOs- its that the other members of the board are all white and would prefer them to be janitors...

Well that's the whole point of this argument.  I'm not saying that a negative environment and racism doesn't have a negative effect on a person's development because obviously it does.  What i'm saying is that this is not the only factor and that genes also play a role in a races average intelligence.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 10:49:48 am
okay but you're substantiating this claim with links to research done by well known bigots with readily apparent agendas and claims of experiments where the assumption is that adoption completely eliminates all components of discrimination within the tests, which simply isn't the case.

you talk about us denying the "facts" because they don't confirm what we ourselves want to believe, and then remain seemingly oblivious to the notion that someone might distort the facts so they DO confirm what they believe, whether it's incorrect or not.  you can't be so suspicious of others and then not extend the same suspicion to the sources you're citing-- especially when your sources are the people most likely to distort or fabricate empirical findings to support their agendas.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:54:19 am
Ok, but this was addressed before; even if you put the kid in another family, you can't remove the colour of their skin, and they'll always be discriminated against for that reason. The only way you could really test this was if society was completely unbiased, and that's just not possible

That's true in a society like the US where blacks etc are a minority but other studies have been done in other countries that still support the heritabily view.  For example the living and education standards in india and asia have increased dramatically over the last 50 years but the average IQ's still havn't changed dramatically.  The difference in IQ between indians and chinese with the similar wealth is huge.

Another point is that while blacks and hispanics have been discriminated against so have asians.  Going back to when asian first arrived in the US they were in very much the same position as blacks being at the bottom of the social ladder.  Despite this and similar discrimination they did well academically, financially and also in IQ tests.

BTW by social success I just meant a higher standing in society.  This is normally implied by intelligence and wealth but I thought I'd mention it anyway.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 10:56:59 am
Anyway its 11pm in NZ and iv got to be up at 4 30 so better leave this for tonight.  Might come back and answer the million responses there will probably be in a couple of days.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Frisky SKeleton on May 12, 2008, 10:59:50 am
pretty sure the chinese moved over to find gold and build railroads, they weren't captured and shipped over
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 12, 2008, 11:04:33 am
the reason asians do better here is because only the smartest asians can afford to come here, this is pretty obvious guy.

also man I don't even need to call you stupid everyone else is doing a good job of it.

also also what do you have against Indians, who tend to score higher on IQ tests than whites. as your genetic superior I order you to start suckin my d.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Dredd on May 12, 2008, 11:06:22 am
I didn't say their means or reasons for going to the US were the same I'm just saying that at that point of time their situations were very similar.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Paige_28 on May 12, 2008, 11:07:42 am
Asians were never submitted to the slave trade en masse: their culture was held higher in regard due to its similarities to western culture, ie. having a written language, ornamental material possessions. Thus they were in general treated with far more respect
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 12, 2008, 11:34:51 am
It’s interesting how you keep bringing up the adoption study, especially since the people who conducted it actually stated that it was evidence for a wholly environmental theory of intelligence. The people who claim it shows a genetic influence are, yep, Jensen and Lynn again. Maybe it’s me, but for such an obviously popular and correct theory, it’s strange how so many articles are written by just the same few bigots over and over…

Anyway, some more quotes I think you'll find interesting:

"Race is a social construction, not a biological construct, and studies currently indicating alleged genetic bases of racial differences in  intelligence fail to make their point even for these social defined groups." - http://www.apa.org/journals/releases/amp60146.pdf

"The academic and occupational successes of Asian Americans have caused many people to presume Asian Americans have higher-than-average IQs. However, most studies show no difference between the average IQ of Asian Americans and that of the general population. Some studies of Asians in Asia have found a 3 to 7 point IQ difference between Asians and whites, in favor of Asians, but other studies have found no significant differences."

"It is interesting to note, however, that the gap between the whites and the blacks have reduced by one third in the last 30 years and many believe that the average IQ of the two populations will gradually converge, resulting in minimal difference between them – due to the Flynn effect, which states that IQ scores from all nations are slowly increasing over time due to improved environmental conditions [...] Many critics of the genetic view simply argue that the studies which show racial differences are flawed or inconclusive. The fact that the gap between black and whites is decreasing seems to support their views. In fact, they offer evidence to show that African-Americans have excelled in almost every enriched environment they have been placed in (and which they were previously barred from) and that this distinction has been achieved in only a few decades, with improved but still not equal opportunity [...] Studies have shown that a student’s ethnicity did make a difference in the teacher’s decisions for referrals for gifted and talented educational programmes." - http://www.aboutintelligence.co.uk/the-controversy-race-intelligence.html

"It is important to note that neither IQ, future academic performance, nor life success can be predicted from an individual's race or ethnicity." - http://social.jrank.org/pages/529/Racial-Differences-Standardized-Tests-Race.html

"These differences are substantial, there are much larger differences between people within each group than between the means of the groups. This large variability within groups means that a person’s racial or ethnic identification cannot be used to infer his or her intelligence. "

Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 12, 2008, 11:39:09 am
^^^^you doin a good job here btw.

hey Dredd I found this book I think it might help you!

(http://pixhost.eu/avaxhome/avaxhome/2007-10-30/41120GQ504L._SS500_.jpg)

man what is with the insistence of people ignoring like the entirety of a scientific body in order to fit a few studies into their point of view.

ps when ice cream sales go up so do wife beatings correlation is not causation.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: thecatamites on May 12, 2008, 12:08:34 pm
Quote
Ok guys you can try to discredit them all you like.  Hey their views are hated by a lot of people so I'm sure you'll have no problem finding quotes from people "discrediting" their research.  Hey probably any black guy with a doctorate will be happy to add his name to the list.  But is there any evidence to support your point of view? any evidence at all? trying to disprove my point of view doesn't do this.  Can anyone name an iq test that blacks have actually scored equal to whites?  How do you explain that blacks whites and hispanics all adopted into upper class white families with the same average income and given the same learning opportunities still have the same order of intelligence from the age of 3.  Shit that might be a hard one.

Incidentally, this is a textbook example of 'shifting the burden of proof', where instead of proving he's right he asks other people to prove him wrong: http://ksuweb.kennesaw.edu/~shagin/logfal-distract-shiftburden.htm
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 12, 2008, 12:27:07 pm
the best part I think is when he just gave up and started saying ANY BLACK CUNT.

it pretty much took his whole "hey I'm a reasonable guy I have other race friends" and shoved it up his ass.

basically the best part is when you're so full of indoctrinated racism and hate, it eventually comes out and everyone I've known like this gets stuck in a soulless middle management position and ends up marrying a fat chick that they knocked up and they eventually turn into hollow shells of people, that's Dredd in a decade or so.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 12:32:36 pm
they dont have fat chicks in new zealand do they
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 12, 2008, 12:35:13 pm
they have to keep warm somehow in the cold arctic winters.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 01:09:55 pm
does anyone else find it kind of weird that afura and his roommate are sitting in their respective rooms posting to each other
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: jamie on May 12, 2008, 01:19:14 pm
i think it's pretty funny they are fuming at each other from a few feet away

COME OUT OF YOUR ROOM AND SAY THAT

NO YOU!
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: missingno on May 12, 2008, 01:39:08 pm
that doesn't seem weird to me at all
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: headphonics on May 12, 2008, 02:10:29 pm
i think it's pretty funny they are fuming at each other from a few feet away

COME OUT OF YOUR ROOM AND SAY THAT

NO YOU!
yeah this is exactly what i meant.  like i sort of wonder if they are just going to see each other in the kitchen in five minutes and pretend none of this is happening or give each other the silent treatment or what
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Kaworu on May 12, 2008, 02:53:04 pm
just like the serenity clan
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 12, 2008, 03:17:07 pm
yeah I was telling him on IRC this could only be a mistake. Rashid got on IRC once and Chef immediately said SO I LOVE BLACK DICK and he's forever thought those were the people I was most like.

blackdicklovers.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: 4Dsheep on May 12, 2008, 03:22:14 pm
-Race is a social construct and is not genetic. You might want to accept this if you want to get anywhere in life.
-Apparently, some people find a correlation between one social construct (race) and another (IQ). This is somehow genetic instead of a massive fallacy.
-Big brains means high intelligence, even though Neanderthals had bigger brains than any homo sapiens and didn't progress past 'hey-let's-eat-that-mammoth'.
-The fact that subsaharan people were little more than monkeys before they met the Great Aryan Race (or whatever you want to call yourself) is comparable to the fact that you were little more than dinner before you met the midwife. This case is the purview of the social sciences, not of biology.
-The brain develops according to environmental input, not according to some genetic plan. It's how we learn. It's how we're sapient. I thought people learned this in elementary school but evidently I was mistaken.

Oh, and then this:
Quote
The most likely reason why larger brains are, on average, more intelligent than smaller brains is that they contain more neurons and synapses, which make them more efficient. Haier et al. (1995) tested the brain efficiency hypothesis by using MRI to measure brain volume and glucose metabolic rate to measure glucose uptake (an indicator of energy use). They found a correlation of −.58 between glucose metabolic rate and IQ, suggesting that more intelligent individuals have more efficient brains because they use less energy in performing a given cognitive task. Several other studies supporting the brain-size/efficiency model were reviewed in Gignac, Vernon, and Wickett (2003). In any individual, however, energy use increases with the increasing complexity of the cognitive task.
I am laughing so bloody hard right now. First, more synapses means your brain is fundamentally slower, since signals have to pass, get this, more synapses, which takes time (it's also completely irrelevant). Second, neurons need glucose to live, not to function as neurons (it's also, again, completely irrelevant). It's actually suggesting smart people have less neurons (oh, and 'efficiency', what the fuck? How is that relevant, like, at all?).

Finally, if you could just point us to the IQ gene, the entire body of science would be eternally in your dept. If we have that, maybe then we could finally do some actual scientific study instead of crawling around in the festering pool that is statistics.

Genetics does not work that way. None of the studies you put forth have any genetic relevance. Any correlation might as well be caused by the tooth fairy.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on May 12, 2008, 04:30:33 pm
4d are you sure about the synapse thing.

because I heard women have smaller brains but more synapses which made them smarter (indicating brain size has nothing to do with brain activity) so was that just wrong?
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: 4Dsheep on May 12, 2008, 05:34:32 pm
4d are you sure about the synapse thing.

because I heard women have smaller brains but more synapses which made them smarter (indicating brain size has nothing to do with brain activity) so was that just wrong?
A synapse is the space between the axon of one neuron and the dendrite of another, and requires a transmitter to be released and that transmitter to bind to the receptor. The point is, synapses are mostly chemical, meaning slower, while conduction along an axon is mostly electrical, meaning faster. It's basically the difference between going down a water slide and falling down stairs. But it doesn't matter anyway since a higher number of synapses does not automatically cause a higher 'intelligence', e.g. kids have 10^16 synapses while adults have 10^15. It's like saying that because your lego castle is made out of more lego blocks that the other it's inherently better designed. Also, someone's brain might be active as fuck but it's not going to do him much good if all it's wired to do is counting to blue. A person who gives answers really quick, but always gives the wrong answer isn't most people's definition of intelligent, and basic 'processing speed' like that is all biophysics can reasonably be asked to cover.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: ThugTears666 on May 12, 2008, 07:54:56 pm
i think it's pretty funny they are fuming at each other from a few feet away

COME OUT OF YOUR ROOM AND SAY THAT

NO YOU!


Quote
yeah this is exactly what i meant.  like i sort of wonder if they are just going to see each other in the kitchen in five minutes and pretend none of this is happening or give each other the silent treatment or what


Hahahha yeah its fucking ridiculous because I came out of my room like fifty times and argued it in person several times, I had just finished work so excuse me for eating dinner.
And nah we talked about it hardout and my other flatmates are checking the site (asians/lower beings). One thing that makes me feel like a faggot is when he calls me by my username on the internet and it was the wierdest thing ever when I woke up hearing him say "that magicial negro guy is a fucking idiot, he just insults people" hahaahha having gw that close to home is strange. 
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Rye Bread on May 12, 2008, 08:43:53 pm
Of course Magical Negro is an idiot, since it's scientificially accepted that Negroes aren't as bright as us light-skinned folk.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: GZ on May 12, 2008, 08:59:55 pm
Of course Magical Negro is an idiot, since it's scientificially accepted that Negroes aren't as bright as us light-skinned folk.
sorry but you fail to factor he is no ordinary "negroid" but a magical negroid. let me pull a quote on you here:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - dead guy

clearly he is a time traveling nignog from the 23rd century where darkies have evolved to get more IQ points
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Parker on May 12, 2008, 10:00:19 pm
sorry but you fail to factor he is no ordinary "negroid" but a magical negroid. let me pull a quote on you here:

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." - dead guy

clearly he is a time traveling nignog from the 23rd century where darkies have evolved to get more IQ points
This is like the greatest post in all of GW.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: Slim on May 13, 2008, 08:44:28 am
I do think the community here jumped down his throat a little more than necessary. I feel that genetic differences do exist, but social factors are important. That seems to be in line with his original point, and I have to support it to some extent.

(On a sidenote, I was under the impression that IQ tests were more about measuring your potential to learn and not your actual intelligence. ie. A kid can learn quickly in school if he applies himself, but if he's getting baked and drunk all the time he'll probably do worse than someone with a lower IQ who studies.)

I've been lead to believe that parents with higher IQs generally have children with higher IQ's as well.

Now, as little a difference as I think "race" makes, the argument that genetic differences lead to varying levels of intelligence cant be ignored. Not black vs white or anything, but rather people with gene "a" might learn faster than gene "b". Just as people with gene "c" have six fingers, and people with gene "d" might have more enamel on their teeth. I think someone called them "clines" earlier in this topic.

If genes can influence so many factors inside someone's body, why woudln't they hold some level of influence over intelligence? The wrong genes can cause all sorts of problems in people. Issues like alzhiemer's and schizophrenia are more likely to occur in someone if their ancestor had the same problem. There must be an ideal set of genes to make the most potentially intelligent person. 

If for some reason these genes appeared in a European or Asian first, thousands of years ago, through selective breeding, infant survival rates, and sheer luck, it's possible that they became a little more dominant there than in other areas. Again, not say whites or asians are more intelligent, but rather people with gene "a" may have initally appeared in an area that has a lot people with a certain skin colour. People have spread out for thousands of years, so it is quite likely that some fellow (perhaps a Greek or Roman, they seemed to get around on a lot of the planet) ventured out to make kids and now these ideal genes for intelligence are in every possible "race".

Its also possible that these ideal genes are some sort of oddball chance or mutation, actually appearing even less frequently than other rare conditions. So my personal belief is that sure there might be a couple of ideal brainiacs floating around somewhere immune to their environment, but for the average person it is predominantly their environment which will lead to any sigificant variation in intelligence. If you seperated two twins at birth and threw one into a low income area with poor schooling, shtity medicine, a general lack of nutrition,  and the other one into an environemnt where he would be nutured and comfortable, they'd probably end up with different IQs. Or at the very least one would appear smarter because there was a low enough teacher to pupil ratio that a supervisor prevented him from continually eating the paste.

So I agree with him that genetics do play a small role in intelligence, but that the environment is just as, if not more, important. I can't agree that it's based on race, rather that it's about the cline. Gene "a" cannot be even remotely affiliated with skin or noses or hair or any other possible physical feature.
Your chances of being able to learn more quickly than others are somewhere between your chances of having blue eyes and sprouting a third arm. And even then if you go to a shitty school you'll probably end up in a shittier position than a priveleged person.


*edit* jsut finished reading one of the articles at slate.com and it seems to be in line with this, that genes cross the race barriers
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: dada on May 14, 2008, 04:54:25 pm
yeah I was telling him on IRC this could only be a mistake. Rashid got on IRC once and Chef immediately said SO I LOVE BLACK DICK and he's forever thought those were the people I was most like.

blackdicklovers.
Dude! That was me! I said that to DISCREDIT you.
Title: hey afura's roommate!
Post by: something bizarre and impractical on May 15, 2008, 06:38:43 am
A synapse is the space between the axon of one neuron and the dendrite of another, and requires a transmitter to be released and that transmitter to bind to the receptor. The point is, synapses are mostly chemical, meaning slower, while conduction along an axon is mostly electrical, meaning faster. It's basically the difference between going down a water slide and falling down stairs. But it doesn't matter anyway since a higher number of synapses does not automatically cause a higher 'intelligence', e.g. kids have 10^16 synapses while adults have 10^15. It's like saying that because your lego castle is made out of more lego blocks that the other it's inherently better designed. Also, someone's brain might be active as fuck but it's not going to do him much good if all it's wired to do is counting to blue. A person who gives answers really quick, but always gives the wrong answer isn't most people's definition of intelligent, and basic 'processing speed' like that is all biophysics can reasonably be asked to cover.

Yes, the synapse is the space between the axon of one neuron and the dendrite of another (which are, and I'm generalizing, output and input terminals respectively). However, that is a restricted definition of synapse, and in most textbooks / articles / whatever you will find the synapse expanding to include more than just 'the space between.' Anyways, the idea that more synapses makes you smarter is very shaky at best. Synapses allow neurons to communicate to each other, and so they are vital to the functioning of the brain. More synapses would imply more dendrites, and thus more connections, but this isn't necessarily going to equate to intelligence although you will, in most (all?) cases find more synaptic connections as intelligence increases as the dendrites of the neurons branch out to make new connections and define new functions. It is important to note, though, that a highly intelligent person will actually show LESS electrical activity in, for example, solving a puzzle (in normal circumstances) than a person who demonstrates 'inferior' puzzle-solving ability because the highly intelligent person's brains have essentially become optimized by making new synaptic connections and strengthening ones that already exist for that task.