Gaming World Forums
General Category => Entertainment and Media => Topic started by: Marcus on May 15, 2008, 09:39:32 am
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So, I was discussing with my buddy the other day about "women in vidyas" and we both reached the conclusion that they are the most garbage and throwaway characters moreso than the minority characters and the specialist casters in RPG's (blue mages, summoners, etc.).
To put it simply, nearly EVERY female role in a video game either casts them as
A: The protagonist who's really sassy, badass, and headstrong. They can take on any male, fight demons and aren't afraid of anything.
or
B: The side-kick who's really bashful/spunky/quiet that assists the protagonist and usually (like, 99% of the time) has a crush on him but never ever admits it until the end of the game through some heartfelt dying conversation or after being rescued.
Females as antagonists are surprisingly more rare and by antagonist I mean they consistently oppose the protagonist from start to finish. You'll notice that any game with a female antagonist will almost always reform before the end of the game (or before dying) or she'll reveal that she was an undercover agent or something/has a crush on the hero and joins the group.
So yeah, this discussion is about how utterly useless women are in video games. You might as well create a world that's 100% male only because as long as you've got writers that feel every woman must serve only to help the man then there's really no point in their existence besides providing a rack to look at. I can count the number of games with an actual female antagonist on one hand and the number of games with a female costar that's actually STRONGER (mentally and physically) than the hero on two hands.
I would kill for a Y the Last Man (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Y_the_last_man) game just so every gamer could be completely baffled that the main character is a bumbling idiot in a world ruled by women. Every gamer's head would collectively explode.
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this is because the only professional videogame designer to ever have sex was shigeru miyamoto, but he had sex with another man
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yeah idk, i think it's a problem everywhere; in novels, television, and movies the same still essentially holds true. dudes can't write women most of the time. i mean, dudes can't write ANYBODY most of the time, but especially not women. and of all the dudes who aren't too good at writing women, i would say videogame programmers/would-be writers have probably the most trouble, maybe due to the fact that many of them are giant nerds.
i think, going beyond the NEEEEERD part of it though, that a lot of it's also due to their literary influences. i seriously think that a lot of these people learned how to write by reading forgotten realms novels and thinking THIS IS HOW IT'S DONE, and if that's the only things they're drawing inspiration from, then it would follow that they lack the ability to write decent female characters, because i'm pretty sure there's never been a decent female character in anything d&d related, ever. then there's also the part where i think we're talking about japanese games a lot of the time here, and japanese culture seems to impart this fucked up view of women upon men, so the whole sexual repression/fetishism/complete lack of feminism/other weird gender issues in japan probably just compound the problem.
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this is the sole reason i made that princess on a quest game a couple of years ago. it's just a stupid comedy game, but i am KIND OF working on a game just now and i'm trying to do the same thing, except not a stupid joke. i realise i'm a guy and it would be better if a real woman wrote about real women but it's better than nothing.
i'm trying to think of female characters in games who aren't worthless, and alyx from hl2 comes to mind. she still has that crush on gordon angle, i mean it's unspoken but whatever, but apart from that i'd say she's a pretty respectable character. since gordon is a nothing, she's the character you get to know best in those games and while she's capable of heading up a resistance movement she isn't Alyx Vance Teen Detective capable of anything, cos that stuff is a total cop out, although it's not as bad as the meek girlie girl who follows the man around.
what panda and hundley said is probably true but i'm no stud and women in games still annoys me, and it's one of the reasons i find games kind of gross and stop playing a lot of them. the people who are writing these women are just stupid assholes. that's stupid, because their writing is so shit, and assholes because they are all right with perpetuating negative stereotypes which a whole new generation of frat boy rapists and hentai fans are being raised on. haha videogame writers are dumb but they are being given a public space to spread ideas and they just say naaaah let's stick'er with some double d's
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Silent Hill 3's protagonist survived Silent Hill, and was generally pretty human. She, like any SH character, was fucked up, but she wasn't the sassy/cool chick that you speak of.
I can't think of anyone else though, so, I'm not arguing. Women are too rarely good characters in games. Laura from D is even worse. The game was great, but she represented this weakling blondechickinnahorrorflick character. I dunno.
If more writers put on a vagina once and awhile, they might understand vomen more.
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Yall forgetten Lara Croft... shame on you all...
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Lara Croft
A: The protagonist who's really sassy, badass, and headstrong. They can take on any male, fight demons and aren't afraid of anything.
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it's much easier to make the aforementioned sexy lady character than it is an actual woman character. the difference here is 99% of the time gamers will like the sexy lady more than a real woman character. when games like DOA BEACH VOLLEYBALL are released this becomes abundantly clear.
so what's the point in even trying to expend effort when the vast majority of gamers won't get it or won't give a shit? i mean, the same can typically be said for the main character too. why don't games make a legitimate main character and not some guy who SAVES WORLD and has the personality of a brick? i'm pretty sure most gamers are satisfied with these kinds of characters. admittedly women characters are the worst though.
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Maybe this is sort of old hat but I'm more bothered with the pointless sexualization of women in video games (especially Japanese games). All things considered (and stick-collecting forgiven) I loved lost Odyssey a lot, but characters like Ming and Sara with their maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassive boobs and sexy clothes all that really took away from the game. They are trying to bill these women as serious characters, but when the game can't decide whether to be video game or pornography, I was sort of drawn out of the entire thing. I enjoyed the mechanics of the game and some of the writing and all that but many key scenes were ruined by the ill-conceived character design.
There's a big difference between a sex object, and a heroine who happens to be very pretty. You see Hollywood characters who fill out the latter role all the time; it's not uncommon to be watching a summer blockbuster with a respectable, level-headed female lead who takes charge, solves problems, and does it without being a sex object even though the actress is extremely attractive. Maybe there's a fine line or something but video games almost always end up on the wrong side of it.
Also yeah I think the whole phenenomenon is driven by the facts that western society is generally patriarchal (all of our folk heroes are male as are most of our real-world leaders and heroes) and of course most of the people making games are young testerone-driven men. It's easy to see how this happens when everyone in the design team from concept artist to scenario writer to modeller to director are all horny young men.
when games like DOA BEACH VOLLEYBALL are released this becomes abundantly clear.
My favorite part about DOA volleyball is that it was actually the best volleyball game on the market at the time. Like it's a small pond or whatever but you know it's still pretty sweet (I played it and it was sort a little bit legitimately fun).
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Maybe this is sort of old hat but I'm more bothered with the pointless sexualization of women in video games (especially Japanese games). All things considered (and stick-collecting forgiven) I loved lost Odyssey a lot, but characters like Ming and Sara with their maaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaassive boobs and sexy clothes all that really took away from the game. They are trying to bill these women as serious characters, but when the game can't decide whether to be video game or pornography, I was sort of drawn out of the entire thing. I enjoyed the mechanics of the game and some of the writing and all that but many key scenes were ruined by the ill-conceived character design.
haha, i was really annoyed when ming showed up in this game. i was playing through it and god damn i was almost enjoying the story. seth is a pretty respectable female character! apart from her stupid first scene, i guess, but it's forgivable. i thought this game while still being terrible writing was at least inoffensive. the ming and her stupid outfit showed up. it's just...what?
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djfkfjlfqfkjfd
yeah, this is a little bit off subject, but i've got a serious problem with this too. i think it's more prominent in rpgs and maybe some action games were serious characters would actually be necessary, so those are the games i notice it in. but they'll have these people who the player's supposed to take seriously as a character in the story, and then for absolutely no legitimate reason, put them in ridiculous lingerie and expect it to have no adverse effect. i think a lot of the time this could be partially attributed to the character designs for games getting progressively more and more unrealistic, but i still think a lot of it's just this innate compulsion to throw any woman at all in a skimpy outfit, whether they're supposed to be a serious character or not. FOR EXAMPLE: http://www.ashelia.com/Ashe_aka_Ashelia_Princess.jpg
yeah she has small tits so it's a little less offensive on that front, but the skirt is literally so short that if she does ANYTHING AT ALL it would need to be censored. it's hilarious to me that these games try to weave complex, character-driven narrative tapestries and then seriously dress their casts like this with a straight face. it's not like the men aren't guilty of it to some extent, but i don't really think it's as sexual in men, since you don't see shit like giant bulging dongs nearly as frequently as you do ludicrously huge breasts and monstrous amounts of cleavage in women.
but yeah it's irritating, and i think the fact that developers almost seem to do it on an unconscious level while trying to make totally serious characters in totally serious games actually makes it worse. like they're incapable of creating a female character who's not objectified/sexualized because they don't even realize they're doing it.
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wow i just looked at my own link and i'm a little horrified that someone actually bought that domain
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it's not like the men aren't guilty of it to some extent, but i don't really think it's as sexual in men, since you don't see shit like giant bulging dongs nearly as frequently as you do ludicrously huge breasts and monstrous amounts of cleavage in women.
It's time female gamers demand their giant bouncing dong games!
I'm trying my hardest to think of a legit female character and I'm not coming up with much kelley in night trap is the only one i can think of that isn't defenseless and isn't FEARLESS CAN DO ANYTHING, but that game is a joke so I can't really prove anything with it
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shion......shion uzuki
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FOR EXAMPLE: http://www.ashelia.com/Ashe_aka_Ashelia_Princess.jpg
yeah she has small tits so it's a little less offensive on that front, but the skirt is literally so short that if she does ANYTHING AT ALL it would need to be censored.
Yeah maybe Ashe from Final Fantasy XII wasn't a GREAT example because other than the hotpants she's not really that oversexualized compared to most other jRPG characters but you know she is supposed to be a sophisticated princess and maybe her skit is a little silly? I don't know maybe she's wearing a bikini bottom =\
it's not like the men aren't guilty of it to some extent, but i don't really think it's as sexual in men, since you don't see shit like giant bulging dongs nearly as frequently as you do ludicrously huge breasts and monstrous amounts of cleavage in women.
I think there are legions of raving fangirls that would disagree! It's no big secret that male leads in games like Final Fantasy capture the desires of women. You don't see giant raging dongs because like maybe giant raging dongs generally don't turn women on. The sort of perfect effeminate beauty that defines male leads in Japanese games really is pretty unrealistic and emasculates men just the same way that the games sexualize women. Seriously in my opinion there is 0% difference. But yeah like you I find it strangely easier to not notice/be bothered by (maybe because androginous teenage boys are less IN-YOUR-FACE than DDDDDDDDDD boobs).
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Yeah maybe Ashe from Final Fantasy XII wasn't a GREAT example because other than the hotpants she's not really that oversexualized compared to most other jRPG characters but you know she is supposed to be a sophisticated princess and maybe her skit is a little silly? I don't know maybe she's wearing a bikini bottom =\
yeah that's my point! she's not an object of sexual desire at all, and yet for some reason, she's still dressed in a ridiculously short skirt and some weird skimpy outfit in general. if they're sex objects and dressed like that, that's one thing (STILL BAD but yeah), but it's gotten to the point where they do it even for the characters who aren't even supposed to be sexualized. she's a totally serious character and somehow everyone thought it'd be appropriate to dress her like that--the industry's gotten to the point where this is expected and no one seems to see why it's not good.
but yeah you know maybe you're right about it being as bad with men but less noticeable because they don't use the same methods to appeal to women. i never really considered it that way, honestly.
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lara croft
no words needed
edit: ok i just read what the fuck are you guys on about sexualizing
it doesn't matter if the character is serious or not man
tits and asses SELL
people are still going to jack off to them anyway
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Oh hell, I can't believe I forgot the Metal Gear Girls!
They were sexy, like in their own ways, but felt more like people than sex objects. Unfortunately, this was trapped inside Metal Gear, which is sexual and obsurd... So... Yup.
Then that perv adds things like SnakeEye movies of japanese models, showing off Meryl in the gitch, and potential conversations with Otacon about Sniper Wolf, or Olga (if you crawl on top of her). It's such a perverted series, come to think of it. Lest I mention Metal Gear ACID 2 where Venus' standing still animation includes her lifting one toe and half-hopping so her mammoth breasts flop about.
CURSES! Foiled my own argument.
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FOR EXAMPLE: http://www.ashelia.com/Ashe_aka_Ashelia_Princess.jpg
I don't know what is worse... The fact that Square dressed Ashe like that, or the fact that I never noticed how short that thing was until just now.
I must've become desensitized to this shit. That's horrible.
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I'm trying my hardest to think of a legit female character and I'm not coming up with much kelley in night trap is the only one i can think of that isn't defenseless and isn't FEARLESS CAN DO ANYTHING, but that game is a joke so I can't really prove anything with it
Jade. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beyond_Good_%26_Evil_(video_game))
'nuff said.
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Ashe's skirt might be uber short but her boots go up past her knees so it's not like there is alot showing.
Reading this made me think of my own rm2k3 game Dungeon Dwellers. I have 3 females in the 8 character cast but none of them are very strong on their own personality wise. One is a coward who joins up with Angel (a guy) for the purpose of becoming rich. The other 2 are twins are fall in love with Ace and follow him around like lost puppies. And the whole reason that Jack is fighting is to avenge his fiancee who was killed by the final boss of the game.
I guess amatuer game makers aren't immune to this either.
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The other 2 are twins are fall in love with Ace and follow him around like lost puppies.
I guess amatuer game makers aren't immune to this either.
Wish fulfillment. :shrug:
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Ashe's skirt might be uber short but her boots go up past her knees so it's not like there is alot showing.
Yeah her boots are definitely coving her vagina, that's for sure.
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but i still think a lot of it's just this innate compulsion to throw any woman at all in a skimpy outfit, whether they're supposed to be a serious character or not. FOR EXAMPLE: http://www.ashelia.com/Ashe_aka_Ashelia_Princess.jpg
I blame the Sword and Sorcery movement of the 50s on bikini armor and it is probably one of my largest pet peeves in character design. A full plate for a man covers his entire body and comes with a ridiculously huge helmet while full plate for a woman is a metal bra and leggings (yet she still retains the full bonuses). FF12's Vierra race nearly made me cringe; Ashe was pretty bad (she wears a red bikini bottom you can see up it on hills) but the Vierra is an entire race of bunny girls that wear thongs and some of the thongs have rabbit tales.
Fuck.
Oh hell, I can't believe I forgot the Metal Gear Girls!
They were sexy, like in their own ways, but felt more like people than sex objects. Unfortunately, this was trapped inside Metal Gear, which is sexual and obsurd... So... Yup.
Then that perv adds things like SnakeEye movies of japanese models, showing off Meryl in the gitch, and potential conversations with Otacon about Sniper Wolf, or Olga (if you crawl on top of her). It's such a perverted series, come to think of it. Lest I mention Metal Gear ACID 2 where Venus' standing still animation includes her lifting one toe and half-hopping so her mammoth breasts flop about.
CURSES! Foiled my own argument.
I knew someone was going to bring up Metal Gear because this sparked an entirely different conversation with my buddy. We agreed that The Boss was pretty damn cool for a villain (female or not) but Hideo Kojima's females are just like everyone else but they carry guns and fight so most people don't notice. He believes in this really strong matriarchal view of his women and no matter how mean or badass they are they have a "heart of gold" because apparently all women are nice unless they're pms'ing:
Sniper Wolf: adopted a bunch of wolves and showed Otacon how to take care of them like children
Olga: Gave birth while in the army and passed her motherly duties onto Raiden
The Boss: Gave birth on the battlefield which changed her opinion about war but ultimately stayed faithful to her country and died anyway
Rosemary: Her AI construct develops feelings for Raiden then the real Rosemary gets pregnant with his kid
Fortune: Leader of Dead Cell and called "The Queen" eventually helps Raiden before dying
Emma: Completely estranged from her step-brother after he has an affair with her mother which leads to the death of her father but she forgives him in her dying breath anyway!
Mei Ling: Provides moral support and is the smartest and cutest peppy asian college girl at MIT
I could go on but I don't feel like it. Kojima isn't as insufferable as other writers but you can always expect his women to be super tender and sweet even though they might steal nukes or kill a dozen dudes with their razor blade heat-seeking earrings or super demon glare of death or whatever the fuck Kojima adds on to his villains to make them otherworldly and cool.
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Nariko was pretty badass... but she died...
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The World Ends With You (what's her face on the right is 15 fapfapfapfapfap) (http://gaygamer.net/images/The-World-Ends-With-You.jpg)
Speaking of this game and what's her tits standing next to Neku, I seriously cannot look at her character without ogling her hips because of that low-rider skirt that pretty much shows off the entire lower part of her pelvis 15 YEARS OLD (http://o.aolcdn.com/gd-media/games/the-world-ends-with-you/ds/tn_565_1.jpg)
Etna, the 12[00] year old demon babe. (http://www.bro-usa.com/wholesale/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/5af2cbb8c4ad8342d271cf03cc72ca1d.gif)
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The World Ends With You (what's her face on the right is 15 fapfapfapfapfap) (http://gaygamer.net/images/The-World-Ends-With-You.jpg)
Speaking of this game and what's her tits standing next to Neku, I seriously cannot look at her character without ogling her hips because of that low-rider skirt that pretty much shows off the entire lower part of her pelvis 15 YEARS OLD (http://o.aolcdn.com/gd-media/games/the-world-ends-with-you/ds/tn_565_1.jpg)
Etna, the 12[00] year old demon babe. (http://www.bro-usa.com/wholesale/components/com_virtuemart/shop_image/product/5af2cbb8c4ad8342d271cf03cc72ca1d.gif)
We need more games with hot chickx as long as they keep making them Ill keep buying them, to be honest most of the games I bought,I bought them cause they had a hot chick in them *fapfapfap*.. btw Shiki reminds me of Kairi
(https://legacy.gamingw.net/etc/i78.photobucket.com/albums/j91/Lost-Help/KH2%20Renders/forKFC.png)
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Legacy of Kain has a really well written cast and OH WAIT THERE ISN'T A SINGLE WOMAN IN THE SERIES.
is there?
Ariel, but shes a dead tutorial/folklore character so pretty useless there, but I suppose she has her place in the start of the plotline.
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Legacy of Kain has a really well written cast and OH WAIT THERE ISN'T A SINGLE WOMAN IN THE SERIES.
is there?
Ariel, but shes a dead tutorial/folklore character so pretty useless there, but I suppose she has her place in the start of the plotline.
Holy crap you might be right. I think one or two minor characters like the boss vampires in the original were female.
Also Raziel is kind of a whiny bitch.
Also the writing is the best part of that series because the games aren't very fun (except the first two).
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I'm trying my hardest to think of a legit female character and I'm not coming up with much
What about that female lead in The Longest Journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_Journey)? I haven't played Dreamfall and only had 10 minutes with the first but I can't see either female lead being a badly portrayed character.
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I blame the Sword and Sorcery movement of the 50s on bikini armor and it is probably one of my largest pet peeves in character design...
Actually, Frank Frazetta, who started and dominated this "movement", drew his women completely naked (while his men wheren't far from it).
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I agree that the whole 'women in games' thing needs to evolve beyond just eyecandy and shallow characterisation, but what people forget is that evolution only occurs when there's a need for it to occur. So unless there's a huge backlash against the oversexualisation of women in games, or a massive call for more well-rounded female characters, then I don't think there'll be any real change. Game companies would rather stick to an established template than take the risk of changing something and possibly alienating players.
I don't think it's just a gaming problem either, since it's pretty common to TV, movies and books too. Sure, it's more obvious in games, but that's just because they're mostly designed to appeal to a demographic of the kind of people who jack off to 'chainsaw guns' and shit like that so good writing is less of a priority. So, yeah, don't expect game companies to suddenly buck the trend and start writing nuanced, deep characters... I think that if any change is going to come it'll probably begin with other media and just seep into games gradually.
PS. I thought this http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3137700 was interesting... It's about how market research shows women actually prefer to play as scantily-clad, big-titted characters rather than more realistic ones because the former are more "empowering". Probably bullshit, but maybe worth a look.
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People have told me that I'm pretty good at making female characters I'm not really so sure about that though. Although looking back at it now a large majority of my games have starred women/girls but really that's just because imo female lead characters are more flexible personality and situationally wise than male characters. With female characters the only society set personally limits you have are those you yourself set on them. Like for example if you had a male lead who acts very "girly" and likes to do things society has themed "for girls" then I don't think he'd appeal to many gamers, on the other hand if you have a female character who has a very tomboyish attitude and has boyish mannerisms then no one will have any problem with it. What this means is that with females you have more room to make complex characters who don't fit the usual stereotypes simply because you have the freedom to make this character act anyway you want.
Most developers don't realize the freedom that female leads give you. As most developers are male they tend to write female characters from either their female fantasies or how they've seen them portrayed in the works of others. This leads to the mega hootered bimbos and ditzy idiots you see in most games.
And I'm not saying that all females in games shouldn't be sexy, it's a known fact that some people are hot and some people have large mellony chests and some people are idiots and if all games suddenly stopped featuring mega hootered bimbos then a year from now you'd see a topic on here about how there are no girls with big knockers in videogames. I just think that flat chested or not characters should be written more realistically. Like for example say you were a female martial arts master who just so happens to have a 36EE bust line. If you entered a worlds greatest figher tournament would you wear a string bikini whos only hope of staying on is the fact that it's much too tight to slip down as long as you stand completely still? Someone else already said it and I have to agree with them but game designers should really take a look at how some modern hollywood movies handle female characters usually they're hot but they're still just a deep as anyone else in the movie.
But I think the main reason most developers do this is because sex sells, especially to teenage boys and Japanese salarymen which are there target audience.
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Sex Sells, especially to nerds who don't get much of it. Another thing that sells is big cars.
But yeah, unless the whole mankind and media changes over night, you won't see this changing anytime soon.
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I like to think that males are generally driven by testosterone for the most part in games... this is this sudden recklessness that makes the hero make mistakes, if a female character was to be the main hero (and wouldn't be some uber super giga chick but just someone regular) chances are she might just think it through and solve the problem at first (which results in no game at all) or simply stop to bother about it... lol... ok sorry, I do realize this was a stereotypical comment, do not worry.
Trully though, I think Leric has a point. Writers write characters from their fantasies. Obviously, one could write about how handsome a man is, but they could also write about their cunning (Ulysse) their strength (Hercules) their courage (David) etc etc etc... but for some reason, the only (or strongest) fantasy men have ever felt for women was pure lust or feelings of the same kind. Therefore, its easy to make a thousand different men in a game with different attributes that you look at, but it is much harder to give women something else than looks OR MEN's derived qualities (in case you didn't notice, Lara Croft is probably just about a man transposed into a woman, there wasn't much work involved, she's basically G.I. Jane with big tits).
I won't generalize here, but a part of women can be softer 'creatures' and can appeal to emotions and whatnot (sissy characters who don't seem to fit in the game so obviously we need to link them up to the hero, and since we can't make them important by what they bring to the hero, let's just make them fall for him... wow... this is basically saying that the girl is pointless and can't live her own life for herself).
It is a good thing you note that fact though, because in some games, it just went way too far, as if its a universal fact that we need to accept... Best example on top of my head? Dark Messiah. First time you get to see the villainous girl, she's already a whore... how about the 'good' girl? she's in love within the first hour, and at the first skirmish she moans like a lil bitch whose affraid her sugardaddy will perish, I mean cmon!. I'm sure I'm not the only one whose girlfriend has the nerves to temper down once in a while with a cold 'stfu'. They are just looking for the perfect slut or the perfect softhearted chick whose patience is more than a single woman could ever handle without turning insane.
EDIT:
ROFL LMAO OMFG nice video ;)
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there's no way that this problem is as big in other forms of entertainment as it is video games. I mean yeah there are plenty of dumb and unrealistic female characters on TV and movies and whatever, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as with video games where nearly all female characters are underage and have DDD breasts and wear nothing but lingerie.
Yeah, but it's just that with movies or whatever then you get good stuff to balance out the dross most of the time, so the shit like Charlie's Angels or whatever is still there but it's just not as obvious. So games are definitely the worst, but they're hardly the only ones guilty of it.
well yeah there isn't an absolute necessity for this evolution to occur but if the game industry wants to be taken seriously and draw in more females and not look like its some gross nerdy thing that caters entirely to fat sweaty virgins then they should definitely at least try. I'm not asking for any feminist simulator games but least try to reach the level movies and TV have attained where female characters don't walk around exclusively in hooker outfits and look like porn stars.
It doesn't have to be taken seriously, though, because they'll make a truckload of money anyway. I mean, stuff like the Dynasty Warriors games fly off the shelves despite the fact that they're the same shit over and over. The only way they'll change their formula is if people stop buying their games, which is unlikely, and the only way the game companies will change in the way they depict women is if bikini-clad fantasy girls suddenly become unpopular, which is even more unlikely. I'm not saying it's right, but I just seriously think that they won't change their tried & tested way of doing things unless there's a distinct financial benefit to them doing so.
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She's probably a category 1, but at least she's a General wearing full armor! (http://rpgfan.com/pics/suikoden3/art-01.jpg) That counts for something, right?
Females as antagonists are surprisingly more rare and by antagonist I mean they consistently oppose the protagonist from start to finish. You'll notice that any game with a female antagonist will almost always reform before the end of the game (or before dying) or she'll reveal that she was an undercover agent or something/has a crush on the hero and joins the group.
Well, there's.... um... a couple of the Castlevania antagonists? The chick from Castlevania Bloodlines or whatever and the one from Castlevania Circle of the Moon? Then you have Wendy from Suikoden 1 who I think I would count, but she may be a turn coat at the end, I don't remember. I can't think of any more.
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What about fucking KERRIGAN from StarCraft
jesus fuck she's like the ULTIMATE ANTAGONIST OF ALL SPACE
queen of blades... she's probably the most consistent antagonist I've ever seen
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there's no way that this problem is as big in other forms of entertainment as it is video games. I mean yeah there are plenty of dumb and unrealistic female characters on TV and movies and whatever, but it isn't anywhere near as bad as with video games where nearly all female characters are underage and have DDD breasts and wear nothing but lingerie.
well yeah there isn't an absolute necessity for this evolution to occur but if the game industry wants to be taken seriously and draw in more females and not look like its some gross nerdy thing that caters entirely to fat sweaty virgins then they should definitely at least try. I'm not asking for any feminist simulator games but least try to reach the level movies and TV have attained where female characters don't walk around exclusively in hooker outfits and look like porn stars.
I think your leaving out one major factor in all this, the types of games women are actually interested in playing. The fact is a lot of women play games, they are just either Wii mini-game collections or Bejeweled and shit like that. I really doubt adding a strong female lead that isn't a sex object, in the next Doom or Final Fantasy would really start pulling in the numbers. Remember BG&E?
Speaking of BG&E...
Beyond Good and Evil 2 in the works (http://www.gamespot.com/news/6190987.html)
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uhhhh lots of GRRRL GAMERZ love Final Fantasy and Halo and shit.
it's just there's really no incentive to play them when the people making them clearly view you as an object.
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Yeah really, I hear girls talk about "OMG SEPHIROTH" on a fairly regular basis. These same girls are the really agitating anime crowd, but there definitely are girls playing those games and really liking the male leads.
Then again they also like yaoi manga so who knows what kind of sexuality that is.
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uhhhh lots of GRRRL GAMERZ love Final Fantasy and Halo and shit.
it's just there's really no incentive to play them when the people making them clearly view you as an object.
yeah there are plenty of girl gamers who love FF and Halo, but they're are the ones from the 1up article (http://www.1up.com/do/feature?cId=3137700) thecatamites posted, or they think Sephy is HAWT, or just flat out don't care. Assuming your gonna bring in droves of people into FF just by making a half-way decent female character is kinda strange since the number of people interested in playing an FF game but won't because of women being sex-objects in them is probably a really small number of people.
Just to be clear and know plenty of girls who play these games(well probably not halo so much), i did not say no women play FF ever(I play with several on FFXI in fact).
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Assuming your gonna bring in droves of people into FF just by making a half-way decent female character is kinda strange since the number of people interested in playing an FF game but won't because of women being sex-objects in them is probably a really small number of people.
that's too much of a generalization though.
okay we're talking about an industry that ignores women to begin with. I don't mean create a bunch of games with pink sparkles and dumb bullshit but there's almost none where you play as a woman or where a woman isn't a fucking idiot in a half shirt and 1/8th of a pants. gamemakers operate on the idiotic notion that if their games feature white male characters they will be more successful. TV had a similar perception until Bill Cosby destroyed most sitcom records within a few seasons.
I agree with catamites, I don't think it's going to happen but I don't think there's anything inherently male about videogames and enjoying them so I really don't think ALL WOMEN EITHER WANT NINTENDOGS, ARE BORED, OR ARE GOING TO ANALYZE GENDER ROLES is a fair dichotomy. I'm pretty sure there's never been a real attempt to publicize a game with a female character.
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By the way, this analogy between this and other forms of evolution is sort of questionable, I think. Yeah, it's characterized by only happening when it needs to happen, but I think it's difficult to really quantify necessity in this case! Games are commercially successful, and the industry's probably fairly profitable at this point, so on one hand you might look at things and say "well, it's hardly necessary at this juncture," but that's ignoring the fact that, probably for mostly self-conscious reasons, gamers everywhere have this desire for the medium to be taken seriously. Even if it's only so people won't look at them as pathetic manchildren for playing fucking video games all day, it still exists.
So yeah maybe from a FISCAL PERSPECTIVE video games don't necessarily need to evolve, but then you think about the fact that a ton of people, including ones in the industry, clearly and openly want video games to be accepted as something more than silly games for children. That means being accepted by adults and women, and in general more than just nerdy teenagers and people in their early twenties. For this to happen, yeah, some movement away from faceless teenage girls with absurdly large breasts needs to occur, because pretty much all adults and probably most women are going to realize how stupid that shit is right off the bat. It subsists now, but the medium's still just kind of a niche market in the greater scheme of entertainment and media, and it's obvious people want it to be more than that, which actually does require some form of evolution in the games towards products that at the very least pander to a wider, less transparent market instead of to a small one at the cost of alienating pretty much everyone else.
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I hate how rail thin they all are. A few extra pounds would actually make a majority of them more appealing. The men get it too, they're usually overly buff, and almost never short.
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You guys are all ignoring Kerrigan. =(
I find that Warcraft III tended to have strong female leads...the Night Elves in particular. But the story isn't really paid attention to much in Warcraft, I guess.
Though Starcraft is guilty of sexualizing the medics. But they make up for it with the Valkyries. And the Zerg Queen, surely, is female, right? Right?
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The chick in Bayonetta has guns in her fucking shoes... GUNS IN HER SHOES.
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You guys are all ignoring Kerrigan. =(
I find that Warcraft III tended to have strong female leads...the Night Elves in particular. But the story isn't really paid attention to much in Warcraft, I guess.
Though Starcraft is guilty of sexualizing the medics. But they make up for it with the Valkyries. And the Zerg Queen, surely, is female, right? Right?
all the women in Blizzard games are either big tittied or hideous as shit and the hideous ones also tend to be the only physically strong one.
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^yes but the ugly ones destroy the two main stereotypes in the first post. Moreover, the hideous ones tend to be antagonists.
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What about that female lead in The Longest Journey (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Longest_Journey)? I haven't played Dreamfall and only had 10 minutes with the first but I can't see either female lead being a badly portrayed character.
Yeah, I've played both games, and I wouldn't say the main characters fall in either of the categories listed in the original post.
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what about the locust queen from Gears of War?