Gaming World Forums
General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: Lyric on June 01, 2008, 04:49:51 pm
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Killing a human being is immoral. Eating a human being is immoral. Killing anything when there is an option around it is immoral. Killing an animal needlessly is immoral. Is eating meat immoral? Let's fully debate the morality of carnivores.
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animals are not human, they deserve to be eaten for being so stupid. we have no obligation to care for any other specices other than our own, that is evolution for you.
meat tastes good so i will continue to eat it for as long as i can.
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I know you're a new member and you said in your welcome topic that you like DEBATING, but you really need to put a little more effort into your topics.
I'm going to give you another chance, though. Add some more information into your opening posts (summarize/bulletpoint both sides of the argument, provide some links, talk about your own experiences, etc). Basically, please do more than just say LET'S DEBATE
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Things sure do run differently here. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future, ASE. I'll try to add in a bit of a personal twist.
I am a vegan. I don't eat meat for two reasons. I don't like the taste of meat, and I don't feel it's right. All of the nutrients that we need can be found in plants. Sometimes the nutrients take work (B12) to find, but they're there nonetheless. In my opinion, eating meat might have been necessary when plants had not been cultivated or were hard to come by, but in this day and age, it's not a matter of survival. It's a matter of luxury.
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I think we found Doktormartini a friend.
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i like when people are vegans because it just means that there is more meat available for me to eat
thanks for doing your part bro
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Things sure do run differently here. I'll try to keep that in mind in the future, ASE. I'll try to add in a bit of a personal twist.
I am a vegan. I don't eat meat for two reasons. I don't like the taste of meat, and I don't feel it's right. All of the nutrients that we need can be found in plants. Sometimes the nutrients take work (B12) to find, but they're there nonetheless. In my opinion, eating meat might have been necessary when plants had not been cultivated or were hard to come by, but in this day and age, it's not a matter of survival. It's a matter of luxury.
what are we supposed to do with all the cows and pigs we have? they don't really have a place in nature anymore, we don't have any natural place for the cows of today to live in. should we just take care of them anyway? that's jsut not very profitable. i think everyone and everything would like to live a little than not live at all.
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I can understand to some degree people attaching morality to the way we treat our animals, yes, but I do NOT see why it's immoral to eat animals. It's not immoral for other animals to eat animals, and not immoral for us to eat other animals either. Now, how we go about killing the animal or treating it before eating it is subject to these morality issues, but I don't see how it's a problem just to eat them.
edit: And the argument of eating meat being unnecessary is ridiculous. If you are saying we don't need to look further than plants and such, why not just narrow it down to a specific list of plants that give you the exact amount of nutrients you need and not eat other plants? Why not just take nothing but vitamins and not even eat food? What about people who can't eat nuts for protein? Also, humans aren't about just surviving. It isn't always a matter of luxury because some people DO need meat to survive (there are places in the world where you just plain can't grow many plants, and your argument should apply to all people since it deals with eating, which everyone does). Besides, being human means going beyond surviving--maybe not to a ridiculous degree like people who eat themselves into morbid obesity (which is mostly because of unhealthy processed foods, not meat), but we're able to eat for enjoyment as opposed to just survival, much like how we don't just have sex for reproduction.
Still, if you want to say eating meat isn't necessary to survival, neither is the internet. That's the beauty of being human--we can do more than survive.
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I can understand to some degree people attaching morality to the way we treat our animals, yes, but I do NOT see why it's immoral to eat animals. It's not immoral for other animals to eat animals, and not immoral for us to eat other animals either. Now, how we go about killing the animal or treating it before eating it is subject to these morality issues, but I don't see how it's a problem just to eat them.
This is a flawed comparison, though. I agree that it's definitely immoral the way we handle slaughterhouses and the PROCESS of killing animals to eat them, but I think there's some validity to the argument that eating meat at all is immoral. Animals eat meat because they don't have a choice; it's how they survive. If a lion doesn't pounce on a gazelle and eat it, it can't just replace the loss of food in its diet with something else, and humans can. The difference is that at this point, people don't need to eat meat to survive. There are plenty of other options that are readily available and arguably cheaper, and this definitely isn't the case with carnivorous animals! I think hunting is immoral because it's just needless killing, and along the same lines, I'm not sure how necessary the killing of animals for food is at this juncture in human civilization, so it's probably questionable at best.
Edit. Okay you edited! There's no reason to make a list of which plants you can and can't eat because plants are not moving, breathing animals that can feel things. Also, nuts aren't the only source of protein besides meat. But making a comparison between INTERNET and eating meat is pretty retarded, and I think you have to realize this on some level. Yeah man idk what could the difference possibly be aside from the fact that one does not involve slaughtering millions upon millions of animals? This isn't just about necessity, it's about necessity weighed against the morality of something. It doesn't make sense to draw parallels between things where morality doesn't enter into it (i.e. other frivolous things in society that, while unnecessary, aren't immoral because their existence does not hurt or kill anything).
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Atari, I'm a woman. I'm happy to have done my part though.
Vesper, you raise an interesting point that quite honestly I've never thought about. We breed the hell out of livestock just to slice and dice them. If we stopped studding them and breeding them as voraciously as we do, I have a feeling that things would work out. It might take a while, but eventually the numbers would die down.
Velfarre, others animals do not have the capacity to understand morality and options as well as we humans do. What sets us apart from other animals is our ability to think critically and to reason. The internet does not inhibit a living thing's most basic right to life.
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i stopped eating meat about 4 weeks ago i guess. i done it for a couple of reasons:
i) i think animals are cool and i don't really feel too great about the concept of gobblin' em up
ii) i hypothesized that if i wasn't eating meat i would probably start eating more healthily and that's pretty much been the case. not that i think meat is bad for you, from what i can tell most of if it undisputably good for you, but it's the stuff i would eat with meat - like loads of batter, or meat flavoured crisps, or loads of other fatty shit.
iii) i don't need meat
yeah that's pretty much why. it hasn't been difficult for me to avoid eating meat so i don't really need much more reason than that, i'm happy with the choice.
anyway as far as if eating meat is immoral then i'd say if i had to vote Y/N, i'd probably vote Y. i don't think people who eat meat are dirty rotten scumbags though, the meat is always gonna get made and sold, it doesn't really matter in the end who eats it because someone always will. i'm aware that me being all "heh i don't eat meat" could get very sanctimonious and also kind of obnoxious considering i'm lucky enough to have been born in a country where i can pick and choose whatever the fuck i like to eat and not think about it too much, so i don't talk about it unless somebody asks about it.
if you have to eat meat to survive then absolutely, go ahead. heck even if it's grossly impractical for you not to eat meat for whatever reason, then i'd say go ahead. it is killing anything which doesn't have to die i don't like. if meat is someone's livelihood or there is nothing else to eat, it's pretty ridiculous to judge them.
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You cant really choose if its moral or not because there is so many people with different beliefs..even if you stop eating meat other people are still going to eat it.
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Animals eat meat because they don't have a choice; it's how they survive. If a lion doesn't pounce on a gazelle and eat it, it can't just replace the loss of food in its diet with something else, and humans can.
I don't agree with this argument entirely either, because there are animals that DO have a choice. There are plenty of lizards that eat mostly vegetables, but will also eat meats or insects. Many of them can do without the meat, but would not given the choice. The difference is that they are animals, and their choice is going to be whatever is in front of their face at the time. Still, they make decisions, no matter how simple. However, the argument isn't about what choices they make, it's about whether or not they have a choice in what they eat, and many animals that do eat meat could do fine without it. It sounds really ridiculous talking about lizards choosing their foods, but I've watched them pick out meat from between a bowl of mixed meat and vegetables and only eating the vegetables when the meat was gone. In the wild it's different because obviously they aren't given platters but their brains tend to choose meats first, vegetables later. Their brains may be small and simple, but the point is that for a lot of them they are actually HEALTHIER and better off with very little meat, but they will choose it regardless.
There are plenty of other options that are readily available and arguably cheaper, and this definitely isn't the case with carnivorous animals! I think hunting is immoral because it's just needless killing, and along the same lines, I'm not sure how necessary the killing of animals for food is at this juncture in human civilization, so it's probably questionable at best.
Most of the vegetarian and vegan supplement foods for meat are WAY more expensive, vegetables and such are cheaper than meat but a lot of the things you need to get up to par are pretty expensive. Although I guess you could make it with that kind of diet cheaper, most people end up spending quite a bit. I'm not a fan of hunting unless you do eat the meat, which a lot of people don't, and of course needless killing is immoral--that goes into how we kill animals over eating them. And as I already said, in a lot of places killing animals is necessary for food even now because there aren't other choices, which kind of goes into the argument about animals.
edit: Animals have a basic right to life, but animals take each others right to life all the time. My point was that sometimes we have to do the same. Morality is a human thing, yes, but my point was that it's not immoral to eat animals, so I'm not applying it to animals either. I'm saying that it's necessary to eat animals in some cases, and that you can't say it's immoral when it can be necessary for human life. It doesn't matter if it's not for everyone, it still counts.
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Most of the vegetarian and vegan supplement foods for meat are WAY more expensive, vegetables and such are cheaper than meat but a lot of the things you need to get up to par are pretty expensive. Although I guess you could make it with that kind of diet cheaper, most people end up spending quite a bit. I'm not a fan of hunting unless you do eat the meat, which a lot of people don't, and of course needless killing is immoral--that goes into how we kill animals over eating them. And as I already said, in a lot of places killing animals is necessary for food even now because there aren't other choices, which kind of goes into the argument about animals.
I disagree with this. If you're lazy about it and get the premade soy stuff, they do tend to be expensive (and pretty nasty tasting). However, the legumes and brown rice itself is not very expensive at all compared to meat. Meat is some of the most unreasonably priced foods out there.
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if you have to eat meat to survive then absolutely, go ahead. heck even if it's grossly impractical for you not to eat meat for whatever reason, then i'd say go ahead. it is killing anything which doesn't have to die i don't like. if meat is someone's livelihood or there is nothing else to eat, it's pretty ridiculous to judge them.
yeah this btw. sorry if i am coming across as saying HEH DONT EAT MEAT ever because i really don't think that! at most, i just think that if other avenues are available to you, then you probably shouldn't because at that point, yeah, it's just encouraging needless killing. for the same reason i don't hold it against carnivorous animals for eating meat, i wouldn't hold it against a person whose diet depended on meat for them to live, either, or even if as jamicus said, it's just grossly impractical for them to completely give up meat. i mean, i still eat meat because i like the taste of it, but it's hardly necessary for me, and i'm at least willing to admit that this is of questionable morality when held up to my other standards as far as killing goes.
I don't agree with this argument entirely either, because there are animals that DO have a choice. There are plenty of lizards that eat mostly vegetables, but will also eat meats or insects. Many of them can do without the meat, but would not given the choice. The difference is that they are animals, and their choice is going to be whatever is in front of their face at the time. Still, they make decisions, no matter how simple. However, the argument isn't about what choices they make, it's about whether or not they have a choice in what they eat, and many animals that do eat meat could do fine without it. It sounds really ridiculous talking about lizards choosing their foods, but I've watched them pick out meat from between a bowl of mixed meat and vegetables and only eating the vegetables when the meat was gone. In the wild it's different because obviously they aren't given platters but their brains tend to choose meats first, vegetables later. Their brains may be small and simple, but the point is that for a lot of them they are actually HEALTHIER and better off with very little meat, but they will choose it regardless.
animals... don't have any concept of morality to begin with, so i really don't see how what they'd do has any bearing! animals do a lot of things that people don't do! the difference is that, unlike many of them, not only do we have a choice, but we distinguish between right and wrong and value life on an intrinsic level, something animals don't do! one of the other BEAUTIES of being human is the capacity for ethics, and this is an extension of that.
Most of the vegetarian and vegan supplement foods for meat are WAY more expensive, vegetables and such are cheaper than meat but a lot of the things you need to get up to par are pretty expensive. Although I guess you could make it with that kind of diet cheaper, most people end up spending quite a bit. I'm not a fan of hunting unless you do eat the meat, which a lot of people don't, and of course needless killing is immoral--that goes into how we kill animals over eating them. And as I already said, in a lot of places killing animals is necessary for food even now because there aren't other choices, which kind of goes into the argument about animals.
i think you're just going by places that overprice things because it's sort of a niche market. i don't really know anything about a vegan diet, but that's always come off as a bit extreme to me, anyway. as far as a vegetarian one goes, it's really not all that expensive at all if you don't want it to be, and you can get a lot of the nutritional supplements you need from lacking meat in your diet in a relatively inexpensive way. so yeah, i stand by my statement that for most of us living in developed countries there are cheaper (or at least comparatively priced) alternatives for vegetarians, and maybe for vegans as well.
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You know the amount of insects that die to farmers' cruel use of insecticides in their fields? How is killing insects any more moral than killing animals? Is it because of their size? No matter where you want to take your food you're going to have to kill a whole lot of stuff. Limiting yourself to killing only certain creatures and letting others live doesn't make the killing any more righteous, it just places an arbitrary right to live on certain cuter life forms.
Also most people on this planet don't have the luxury to choose what they will eat. But even there, why would they? Can you argue how killing a grasshopper is any less cruel than killing a deer, other than their respective sizes?
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grasshoppers don't have the same ability to feel pain as a deer, for one
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You know the amount of insects that die to farmers' cruel use of insecticides in their fields? How is killing insects any more moral than killing animals? Is it because of their size? No matter where you want to take your food you're going to have to kill a whole lot of stuff. Limiting yourself to killing only certain creatures and letting others live doesn't make the killing any more righteous, it just places an arbitrary right to live on certain cuter life forms.
Also most people on this planet don't have the luxury to choose what they will eat. But even there, why would they? Can you argue how killing a grasshopper is any less cruel than killing a deer, other than their respective sizes?
hey read the topic!!!!! it is not about killing so much as it is killing unnecessarily.
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animals... don't have any concept of morality to begin with, so i really don't see how what they'd do has any bearing! animals do a lot of things that people don't do! the difference is that, unlike many of them, not only do we have a choice, but we distinguish between right and wrong and value life on an intrinsic level, something animals don't do! one of the other BEAUTIES of being human is the capacity for ethics, and this is an extension of that.
I was never saying they did. I know they don't have the decision making basis of ethics that we do, I was just saying that the argument of "they have no choice" isn't true. What we determine is different, and our views on ethics and morals change from person to person: the reason we're having this topic. I didn't mean for that argument to be involved with the morals argument, it just sort of appeared that way.
And as for the price thing, I guess I was going based on the kind of shit Doktormartini eats like SPIRULINA TABLETS and GOJI BERRIES.
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I did read the topic, I thought that the idea of "killing unnecessarily" was for instance, eating meat when you could eat vegetables instead. Or does she mean like, killing certain animals just for their fur? I do think this is unnecessary as synthetic fur can be just as good, AND less expensive, so choosing real fur is just a snobby choice. But a lot of people do live by selling these furs though, like the seal clobbers...
As for the pain argument, I think it is arguable that the ability to feel pain is a very arbitrary reason to give different worth to certain forms of life. I am sure you wouldn't think a human who is unable to feel pain would be any less of a human because of that. Or at the very least you wouldn't kill him without remorse!
Of course it seems silly to defend the right to live of insects, because well, there are zillions of them, and they are so different from us that we feel very little empathy for them. But still, it does show that the worth we give to other life is just proportional to how much they look like us, which IS in the end very arbitrary and far from righteous.
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I don't think it's a good idea to just name a small lizard who occasionally eats an insect when presented with the option as a reason why carnivorous animals don't need to eat meat! What about bigger ones that can't subsist on plantlife? What choice do they have? If they were even capable of thought to begin with, could they just decide not to eat other animals anymore? They're not able to think about any of these things because they can't THINK, and that's kind of the point, but another point is that many of them are in the same boat as the people in certain areas of the world; meat is an integral part of their diet, and there's nothing they can do to change that.
I did read the topic, I thought that the idea of "killing unnecessarily" was for instance, eating meat when you could eat vegetables instead. Or does she mean like, killing certain animals just for their fur? I do think this is unnecessary as synthetic fur can be just as good, AND less expensive, so choosing real fur is just a snobby choice. But a lot of people do live by selling these furs though, like the seal clobbers...
I guess it means in general. You probably shouldn't eat meat when you can eat something else and have it a) not taste like shit, and b) serve the same nutritional purposes, and you probably shouldn't wear leather or fur when cheaper alternatives are available that don't involve killing. Insects sort of need to be killed because they will ruin entire crops if they aren't and then there won't be enough food to feed the people who depend on said crops, so my point was that no that's not really the same as eating meat when you don't especially need to, or wearing fur when something else would do.
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Insects sort of need to be killed because they will ruin entire crops if they aren't and then there won't be enough food to feed the people who depend on said crops, so my point was that no that's not really the same as eating meat when you don't especially need to, or wearing fur when something else would do.
What about other, larger animals that eat people's crops? Deer have been known to get into gardens and destroy crops, and I've had personal experience with cows getting out of fences and eating our entire garden. Granted, we don't depend on our crops as our only food, but a lot of people aren't as fortunate as my family, and grow their crops as their main source of food. Is it okay to kill those deer or cows because they ruin the crops?
edit: Going by a few google searches, apparently elephants and wild pigs have also destroyed crops in some areas. Is it alright to kill them too?
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Is it okay to kill an animal because it threatens the food source of a lot of people (not even necessarily a lot, but PEOPLE at all)? Is that even a serious question?
Yes, but it's not like there aren't other options. There are relatively inexpensive fences and other long-term measures to counter such problems that don't require animals being killed, and don't require the person killing them to exert constant effort just to keep them from ruining his crops. If you can avoid killing them that's great, but if it's necessary then I don't really see why you need to ask.
You seem to be trying to apply this ridiculous black and white standard to the issue, and it's not even remotely like that. I really don't get where you're going with any of this. You ask IS IT OKAY TO KILL AN ELEPHANT???? like there is a static answer to that question at all. Do you really have no concept of context?
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also it is okay to kill deer and in fact that is why hunting season is encouraged because those cocksuckers breed really fast and they'd all get in the way of traffic and you'd have to push deer out of the way to get to Food Lion in like five years.
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and also the population would surpass the food supply and then they'd all die is that what you want velfarre??
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Ugh man I know my argument is awful and really badly structured I just can't write it down the way I am thinking of it. Fuck, I am starting over:
I think the fact that you can't make it so black and white (which I wasn't trying to do but that is just sort of what happened) is exactly why the argument is so bad: you really can't say whether or not it's immoral because it just depends.
And so...I guess there is really no reason to argue it.
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Well I mean, I think the only people saying it was immoral were me and Jamicus, and that was basing it on the condition that it wasn't necessary or that there was another viable, realistic, accessible alternative. That's ALWAYS been my view on things. If you can avoid it then don't do it but if it comes to that then yeah I don't think it should be considered immoral. I don't think anyone was trying to say that it's just bad to kill in all situations, regardless of circumstances. I was only arguing because you seemed to be saying that it was never wrong because WE HAVE INTERNET and ANIMALS DO IT and whatever else, but if you weren't then w/e!
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I was only arguing because you seemed to be saying that it was never wrong because WE HAVE INTERNET and ANIMALS DO IT and whatever else, but if you weren't then w/e!
Basically I feel like I had a point in there somewhere but I really, REALLY fucked up getting it out and so basically I am just retracting whatever I said because none of it made sense the way it was supposed to.
So uh everyone just ignore whatever I said.
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The thread was meant to ask if eating meat is appropriate when there are other viable food sources out there with all the nutrients we as humans need to survive. I wasn't really aiming at leather and fur usage.
I understand that certain people from certain areas of the world have no option and that in order to survive, they must eat meat. That is not where I'm going with this. I believe very strongly in the survival of humans, and I wouldn't dream about discussing whether or not it is immoral for them to eat meat. This goes mainly to those of us who live in countries where plant-based alternatives are readily available.
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i have no sympathy for animals, except sometimes if i have pets. Veganism is a middle class phenomenon (it isnt bad for this though) because people who are nearest too nature, whether poor villagers or tribes, don't have any qualms about killing animals etc. we dramatize animals because we don't have any contact with them and we take meat for granted. it is not a question of "morality vs immorality", because unless you believe in god, there isn't a way of objectively defining them - however it is true that the people who are more into that animal rights shit are generally the people that are least acquainted with animals.
Furthermorre being a vegan isn meaningless in the context of industrial civilziation. the food grown is done through the destruction of habitats: the computers we use are manufactured through factories that take up much resources - the cities expand leaving animals without a place to live, etc. the only way veganism can stop looking hypocritical is that if vegans moved away to a cave and started growing their shit by themselves.
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Why is it ok to eat vegetables?
They're alive! Just cause we ARROGANTLY don't see them being as intelligent as we are doesn't give us a right to kill them for our own selfish nourishment.
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Okay, so I'm going to start off in a slightly different direction to this, and look at a completely biological standpoint:
(http://gamingw.net/pubaccess/31502/teeth.png)
Our teeth are structured like omnivorous animals, and our bodies require the nutrients of an omnivorous diet. There ARE substitutes, but there's a reason that they're often referred to as "meat substitutes." Very few of the stuff people eat to replace meat (barring nuts and beans) occurs naturally. Technically, we're making shit up to avoid eating meat, for no reason, considering our mouths and are digestive systems are suited towards eating meat.
Um... I'll be back later maybe.
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also it is okay to kill deer and in fact that is why hunting season is encouraged because those cocksuckers breed really fast and they'd all get in the way of traffic and you'd have to push deer out of the way to get to Food Lion in like five years.
solution: bring in real lion
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I think it's immoral the way some animals are treated in order so that we can eat them, but I don't think it's immoral we eat animals. You know, it's in our nature and all that.
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I like meat. Leave me alone.
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man it is absolutely atrocious how animals are treated though. like, I love meat, I will never stop eating meat unless I have to, but fuck slaughterhouses and shit like that, it's no wonder people go vegetarian. seriously, we're supposed to be highly evolved or whatever, this shit is just gross.
it doesn't help that the leading organization who promotes awareness of this compared slavery to meat eating (http://sports.espn.go.com/outdoors/hunting/news/story?id=2136849) but yeah we treat animals like shit.
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I think it's immoral the way some animals are treated in order so that we can eat them, but I don't think it's immoral we eat animals. You know, it's in our nature and all that.
This. (And, since I have no idea how animals are treated, I will happily eat up meat without worrying about it or thinking about it at all!)
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Why is it ok to eat vegetables?
They're alive! Just cause we ARROGANTLY don't see them being as intelligent as we are doesn't give us a right to kill them for our own selfish nourishment.
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As horrible as our treatment of them is sometimes, I see do problem in simply eating meat.
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I have no problem with eating meat. I've killed my fair share of chickens, and I have no qualms with doing so again if it means I get to eat meat.
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Yeah, i love my meat but factory farming and that? Horrible and unacceptabe.
Eat free range
Local if possible
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you guys have converted me
let's let animals run free (like they are supposed to be) and starve most of the world so that our slaughterhouses can be shut down and our immoral slaying of the free creatures of the universe for food can be put to an end
humans are worthless. animals before humans, bro
i guess it doesn't matter that one cow feeds my entire family for 6 months. can one tomato plant claim the same thing?
I'd say 75% or all of you have no idea what it's like to butcher an animal, and while I've never done it on the grand scale, I think you're assigning too much credit to these animals. Yeah, they feel pain. Do they feel pain like us? Maybe. Is one cow as important as one human? No.
Fuck your immorality bullshit. It's immoral to be a vegan because you're promoting the waste of good meat.
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i know exactly what it's like and it's pretty fucking gross and it only gets worse when you do it on a large scale but
that's a pretty long post to not be saying anything at all!
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Slaughterhouses are pretty horrible, thats true. Ive seen lots of videos that were pretty disturbing, with like employees torturing the animals just for kicks, zapping them around and laughing. But on the other hand, its hard to imagine a slaughter factory that would NOT be horrible. Its a place where living things come in, and wrapped products come out, how the hell could it be made "pretty"? Also it has to be pretty disturbing to work there. It can probably really change people, and probably in a bad way.
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We're the kings sitting at the top of the food pyramid. It's our job to eat everything below us. Animals slaughter each other and feed on each other, but are you going to capture every fucking North American Lynx and try converting them to vegetables because EATING RABBITS IS WRONG?
Feeding on other species has been around forever. It's a logical course of action that will remain with us for all of our existence. I don't care if there's a workaround to it. If animals suffer and want it to end, then I welcome them to come and fucking butcher me and eat me.
But that won't happen because we're on top of the pyramid.
Sure, animal slaughterhouses are gross, but it's part of the growing consumerism. Without slaughterhouses, grocery stores wouldn't be filled with all the meat people buy. Now though, that's another debate. IS CONSUMERISM BAD? OH JOLLY.
ps krinsdeath is a smart man: [18:07:10] <curtain> vegans and vegetarians give animals too much credit
remember that for they are wise words
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humans are worthless. animals before humans, bro
stfu, everything is essentially worthless, not just humans
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I luv meat, but to be honest if I was in the jungle I wouldn't have the heart to kill something and clean it, and eat it. I'd just eat fruits.
But I like to think of it this way:
It's already dead and packaged at the market...if I don't eat it, its going to waste :D
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I eat meat, yes. I do however find it horrible how animals are kept, in small stalls, etc. I guess you could call me a hypocrite then, but I don't know. I will still eat the meat, but I still do not like how the animals are treated. My sister recently decided to stop eating meat, I don't really know the reason why, but I don't think it was as much of a morality thing, but something just for her to be cool. (She's only 12). I think I might try it someday, not eat meat, maybe I'll not mind it, or maybe I'll never go back to it.
I am also not one for 'hunting' animals for fun, like "Let's go into the woods and shoot some squirrels" (Common where I live). But if it is for food, like a family taking a moose (Hunting with a permit) for a winters amount of food, I have no problem. The same goes for a survival situation, then I believe everything is fair game.
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slaughter houses are awful because the people in there aren't vegetarians
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Wait so what is the difference between vegetables and animals? I'm serious.
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a nervous system.
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Either way you look at it animals die in the process of creating whatever you are eating. I don't really think there's a valid middle-ground between killing animals for convenience and being completely self-sufficient, if you are trying to push some kind of moral argument.
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touche
a nervous system.
touche
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But it takes an incredible amount of grain to produce a pound of Steak.
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle#Environmental_impact
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Hahaha awesome a fellow vegan...welcome aboard my friend :)
Anyways, I think it is wrong to kill animals when it is UNNECESSARY. Meaning, if you need to kill animals to survive (ie Mbuti people, Bushmen, Matses...etc) I think that is the way we were intended to live and that is fine. They live in the rain forest or wherever and need meat to survive. Here, it's really simple and possible to survive on a vegan lifestyle.
because people who are nearest too nature, whether poor villagers or tribes, don't have any qualms about killing animals etc.
These type of people don't live close to nature they live in tune with nature, they are one with nature. Hunter-gatherers societies kill only what they need for that time period (they don't store mass amounts of food as we do), for the most part they do not grow their own food via mass agriculture as we do (they hunt and gather, yes some do agriculture but not on a mass scale), they make sure the population of the species they are using still thrives (so it's assured that they will have an endless supply and that other creatures can have some of that supply). They don't do shit like poison water systems and cut down forests...etc. Fyi More than 100 species go extinct each day! (http://sciencereview.berkeley.edu/articles.php?issue=11&article=newspecies)
This is the way all animals in nature live (and humans are animals as well).
what are we supposed to do with all the cows and pigs we have? they don't really have a place in nature anymore, we don't have any natural place for the cows of today to live in. should we just take care of them anyway? that's jsut not very profitable. i think everyone and everything would like to live a little than not live at all.
Supply and demand. The more vegans/vegetarians in the world the less animals needed to be raised for food.
If you eat meat, make sure you know where it's coming from. Get organic, grass fed...make sure the animals are treated nice, never by meat from factory farms etc etc.
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also better treated cows/chickens taste way better ~king of the hill, "raise the steaks"
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WHELP i guess this threads over
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also better treated cows/chickens taste way better ~king of the hill, "raise the steaks"
I saw that episode lolz. And yeah, this is pretty much true for anything (Organic apple tastes better than regular apple covered in Shellac (not vegan btw lol)).
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But it takes an incredible amount of grain to produce a pound of Steak.
Also:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cattle#Environmental_impact
The grain fed to cattle is ABSOLUTE SHIT GRAIN though man! We wouldn't be eating that grain ourselves anyway. And the environmental impact cattle has is made by...cattle. The only way to fix it is to NOT HAVE COWS ON THE EARTH.
Also as long as we're bringing up King of the Hill quotes:
"Bobby, did you know that the average person consumes five hundred chickens? That's enough chickens to feed an entire starving village. But they shouldn't eat them, because that's bad."
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The grain fed to cattle is ABSOLUTE SHIT GRAIN though man! We wouldn't be eating that grain ourselves anyway. And the environmental impact cattle has is made by...cattle. The only way to fix it is to NOT HAVE COWS ON THE EARTH.
Also as long as we're bringing up King of the Hill quotes:
"Bobby, did you know that the average person consumes five hundred chickens? That's enough chickens to feed an entire starving village. But they shouldn't eat them, because that's bad."
So basically feed the animals shit food (which does get into their bodies and some transfers to ours) and then eat the animals that ate shit food? Why not eat animals that were fed good food?
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So basically feed the animals shit food (which does get into their bodies and some transfers to ours) and then eat the animals that ate shit food? Why not eat animals that were fed good food?
Because you're assuming too much.
The GRAIN USED TO MAKE A STEAK shit isn't true in most cases, but vegans like to think it is. Most farmers don't feed cows that much grain. You know what the cows at my house eat? What my dad feeds them? Good grass and good hay. Just like the cows at almost every farm I know of. We've fed them shit grain before, when other food sources weren't available. They also eat it on top of the other foods. But you know what? Cows don't give a fuck. The grain isn't the quality that we as humans would eat, but think about all the shit animals eat all the time, that they don't mind one bit. Hell, some animals literally eat shit, how many dogs have I seen tasting their own feces or eating rotting food laying around. A dog doesn't care whether it's eating a rotting fish carcass washed up on the side of a pond for two weeks or gourmet individually packaged dog meals. Cows don't care much whether they're eating grass or hay or grain, they are just EATING. It's shit grain because it's shit grain to US. To a cow, it's fantastic wonderful grain.
The problem is that you are projecting human feelings towards food on an animal that doesn't care what it's eating.
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aw, so it really doesn't matter what cows eat?
that sucks, king of the hill lied to me.
well then again I bet non-factory farmed cow tastes better just because of not being in a shitty factory but still I wanted to entertain the notion of a cow raised on foie grass (heh a pun) that would be so tender you could eat it with a spoon.
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aw, so it really doesn't matter what cows eat?
that sucks, king of the hill lied to me.
well then again I bet non-factory farmed cow tastes better just because of not being in a shitty factory but still I wanted to entertain the notion of a cow raised on foie grass (heh a pun) that would be so tender you could eat it with a spoon.
Well I would say how you treat a cow would make a difference, because the less stressed an animal is the more healthy it is. But really, cows will eat pretty much anything. They do nothing BUT eat anything that's in front of their face and shitting it back out in the process. They really don't make much of a decision on what food they're going to eat, it's just whatever is near.
Also, when you pour the grain out for them, they will push and shove each other to get to it. I would consider that as a sign that it's not too bad (and it's not like they're STARVING AND FORCED TO EAT IT, we feed our cows really well).
edit: Also the feed is mostly corn, not grain. The corn is pretty shit corn too though, but still, cows don't care.
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Because you're assuming too much.
The GRAIN USED TO MAKE A STEAK shit isn't true in most cases, but vegans like to think it is. Most farmers don't feed cows that much grain. You know what the cows at my house eat? What my dad feeds them? Good grass and good hay. Just like the cows at almost every farm I know of. We've fed them shit grain before, when other food sources weren't available. They also eat it on top of the other foods. But you know what? Cows don't give a fuck. The grain isn't the quality that we as humans would eat, but think about all the shit animals eat all the time, that they don't mind one bit. Hell, some animals literally eat shit, how many dogs have I seen tasting their own feces or eating rotting food laying around. A dog doesn't care whether it's eating a rotting fish carcass washed up on the side of a pond for two weeks or gourmet individually packaged dog meals. Cows don't care much whether they're eating grass or hay or grain, they are just EATING. It's shit grain because it's shit grain to US. To a cow, it's fantastic wonderful grain.
The problem is that you are projecting human feelings towards food on an animal that doesn't care what it's eating.
That may be true on your farm but the majority of animals raised for food come from factory farms:
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_9211626
In which they are treated like shit and fed unnatural diets and given hormones, antibiotics...etc which are transferred to our bodies when we eat them. This isn't true for all meat though.
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That may be true on your farm but the majority of animals raised for food come from factory farms:
http://www.sltrib.com/opinion/ci_9211626
In which they are treated like shit and fed unnatural diets and given hormones, antibiotics...etc which are transferred to our bodies when we eat them. This isn't true for all meat though.
The last time I checked none of us were trying to argue for factory farms.
At all.
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The last time I checked none of us were trying to argue for factory farms.
At all.
I know. Your saying that your cows are fed grass and hay and that is good but the majority of cows raised for food are raised on factory farms and fed an unnatural diet (not grass and hay).
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I know. Your saying that your cows are fed grass and hay and that is good but the majority of cows raised for food are raised on factory farms and fed an unnatural diet (not grass and hay).
This is not a reason to be a vegetarian though, just one to not eat factory farmed meat (which you mentioned already). It's just sort of...extra information.
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Yeah that is true :)
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what about cows that get massaged before they get killed? i hear the endorphins make the beef the best tasting ever.
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there' a kind of cow that is massaged its whole life, and they have it listen to slow music, all its life too, and treated like queens untill they kill them and then charge a fortune for it (in a normal restaurant it's around 60$ just a small piece of steak)
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God, after reading through this thread I'm craving steak. Why not just live off insects; they're high in protein, theirs bajillions of them, and they'll just get eaten by animals or die in like a week due to short life spans.
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corn whatever.
my point was it takes a lot more resources to provide for someone eating meat 3 times a day than it does for someone who doesn't (given they don't have a retarded horrible diet or something)
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http://www.un.org/apps/news/story.asp?NewsID=20772&Cr=global&Cr1=environment
http://www.fao.org/newsroom/en/news/2006/1000448/
http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=1856817
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These type of people don't live close to nature they live in tune with nature, they are one with nature. Hunter-gatherers societies kill only what they need for that time period (they don't store mass amounts of food as we do), for the most part they do not grow their own food via mass agriculture as we do (they hunt and gather, yes some do agriculture but not on a mass scale), they make sure the population of the species they are using still thrives (so it's assured that they will have an endless supply and that other creatures can have some of that supply). They don't do shit like poison water systems and cut down forests...etc. Fyi More than 100 species go extinct each day!
This is the way all animals in nature live (and humans are animals as well.
i wasn't talking specifically about hunter-gatherers (although it applies). i was talking about poor villages without electricity that rely on agriculture and a little hunting. my father came from one of those, and he would always tell me stories about how he and his friends when they were children were cruel to animals and how he would hunt for the kicks, etc. a lot of people living in very rural areas hunt for fun (heh rednecks) and most of them have less simpathy for animals than we do.
you are romanticizing hunter-gatherers. they aren't "in tune with nature" that is hippie bullshit that racist westerners buy in, thinking that all the idyllic, quaint and simpleminded hunter-gatherers hate technology and hate to live comfortable lives. i dont know hunter-gatherers, but i do know very simple rural folk, and they certainly don't muse all day about protecting mother gaia, etc and would probably use better technology if they had access to it. i suspect its similar to hunter-gatherers because after all they are human.
to be honest, i think a lot of western hippie types are racist because they think only themselves like technology and comfort and everyone else likes to live like shit. The idyllic tibetian serfs liked their buddhist feudal monarchy, and the quaint south american indigenous people would rather be "one with the soil" than have access to urban comforts.
man should attempt to become the sovereign of nature.
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Do vegans give head?
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my point was it takes a lot more resources to provide for someone eating meat 3 times a day than it does for someone who doesn't (given they don't have a retarded horrible diet or something)
And back to what I was saying, the food provided to cows is pretty much inedible by us. We're going to have a lot of leftover shit grain and corn that isn't going to be used by us in any other way, so there is NO DOWNSIDE AT ALL to feeding it to the cows. And, as I said, grass and hay are also a large part of a cow's diet, two more things that humans don't often consider food. That's like saying we waste too much dog food feeding our dogs when we could be eating it ourselves.
Or would you prefer we just throw away the unusable grain and corn pieces? I don't know, your argument is pretty useless man.
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On a more serious note from my previous post (although I still consider it valid), looking at Velfarre's post I have to ask; do you have pets (cat or dog specifically)?
And if so do you put them on vegan diets instead of the meat in a can diet that vets recommend you do, to shed them of immorality?
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I'd like to further add to Alec's point (READ CAREFULLY LASTLIFE) that human's digestive system isn't really designed for vegan food. Like, at all. It has been proven that only certain tribes living in the jungle had these necessary micro-organisms in their bowels which could intensify the digestation of vegetables. These are kind of things which herbivores has quite an amount inside. The only part that can digest vegetables in human's body is large intestine and it doesn't do it very well.
So yeah, while it takes much vegetables to make a steak, it would take EVEN MORE (multiple amount) to feed a human with vegetables. When you add to this that you have to figure out a way to supply the necessary vitamins, ferums and whatnot that you usually get from meat... yeah, there is a treshold for being a vegan, not to mention that it is not just a realistic option to make everyone in the Earth a vegan: we would run out of food very quickly. Like Marmot said (never knew about that, btw, interesting), is an option only open to Western middle-class people right now.
In my opinion, a balanced diet between meat and vegetables is the best for health rather than a vegetarian food only.
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Puppy "factories" are pretty sick, though. I know it hasn't got anything to do with eating meat, but while we're on the subject of mistreating animals. Cows and pigs, etc. -- we've got so many, what else to do than to eat them? If we don't, there could be overpopulation or something? And then we'd need hunters to kill them.. But not eat them.. And entirely stopping with eating meat is ridiculous. It's healthy. :)
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Slaughterhouses are pretty horrible, thats true. Ive seen lots of videos that were pretty disturbing, with like employees torturing the animals just for kicks, zapping them around and laughing. But on the other hand, its hard to imagine a slaughter factory that would NOT be horrible. Its a place where living things come in, and wrapped products come out, how the hell could it be made "pretty"? Also it has to be pretty disturbing to work there. It can probably really change people, and probably in a bad way.
Those must be slaughter houses from some 3rd world country then, or the sort of slaughter houses that operate illegally and don't produce meat that you could easily (if at all) get your hands on.
A real slaughter house is actually a very clean and efficient place. Animals are killed quickly and painlessly (they are totally paralyzed and made incapable of feeling pain). Every single stage of the animals slaughter is also monitored, and any meat that would leave the slaughter house is first inspected (so are blood and the insides of animals). All these inspectors are also not hired by the slaughter house but usually by whoever the meat would be going to, meaning they do a proper job.
I have a family member who works in a slaughter house and have been to one before, and they are not disgusting or cruel or even anything like these videos would lead you to believe (other than animals getting killed, which can be sort of disturbing the first few times you see it, but it is not like blood and guts all over the place).
All those videos you've seen are nothing like your average slaughter house at all.
Anyway, I don't care about the morals of eating meat. I can eat meat, and will do so regardless of what people try to say or do about it.
Also, crop farming and eating vegetables is just as immoral as eating meat. Animal habitats are destroyed due to farming, pesticides kill a lot more than just pests and in the battle of combine harvester vs harvest mouse (and allies) the combine harvester wins, every time.
So trying to take the moral high ground makes you look ignorant or hypocritical.
I am going to eat meat and laugh in the face of anyone who tries to stop me (with a mouth full of chewn up meat!).
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On a more serious note from my previous post (although I still consider it valid), looking at Velfarre's post I have to ask; do you have pets (cat or dog specifically)?
Actually yeah I want to know this. I know such a thing as vegan cat/dog food exists, so does anyone use it? Personally I don't think it could possibly be good for them. When selecting a dog food, I think you're supposed to make sure meat is one of the first ingredients, so getting rid of it completely sounds like a terrible idea.
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A real slaughter house is actually a very clean and efficient place.
I dont know if this is so true in the United States. If it were we could eat raw bacon and undercooked meat without fear of getting any sort of food-born illness, where in someplace such as Germany they dont have these problems because they dont have mega factory farms and processing centers like we do.
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On a more serious note from my previous post (although I still consider it valid), looking at Velfarre's post I have to ask; do you have pets (cat or dog specifically)?
And if so do you put them on vegan diets instead of the meat in a can diet that vets recommend you do, to shed them of immorality?
Certain pets such as dogs can be healthy on a vegan diet. Other's like cat's are carnivorous. I do not own pets other than a bird (lol he's vegan he eats seeds), but I would not feed my pets a vegan diet. Dogs are omnivorous and I do not force my views on others with their consent (dogs can't say yes or no to being vegan). In this case I would do as stated earlier...buying organic dog food.
I'd like to further add to Alec's point (READ CAREFULLY LASTLIFE) that human's digestive system isn't really designed for vegan food. Like, at all. It has been proven that only certain tribes living in the jungle had these necessary micro-organisms in their bowels which could intensify the digestation of vegetables. These are kind of things which herbivores has quite an amount inside. The only part that can digest vegetables in human's body is large intestine and it doesn't do it very well.
So yeah, while it takes much vegetables to make a steak, it would take EVEN MORE (multiple amount) to feed a human with vegetables. When you add to this that you have to figure out a way to supply the necessary vitamins, ferums and whatnot that you usually get from meat... yeah, there is a treshold for being a vegan, not to mention that it is not just a realistic option to make everyone in the Earth a vegan: we would run out of food very quickly. Like Marmot said (never knew about that, btw, interesting), is an option only open to Western middle-class people right now.
In my opinion, a balanced diet between meat and vegetables is the best for health rather than a vegetarian food only.
Hahaha humans digestive system wasn't meant for vegetables? What? Every vitamin/mineral you get from meat can be obtained via a non animal source. How would we run out of food? There is food everywhere? Look out in your yard, I'm pretty sure over half the plants in your neighborhood are edible in some way.
Puppy "factories" are pretty sick, though. I know it hasn't got anything to do with eating meat, but while we're on the subject of mistreating animals. Cows and pigs, etc. -- we've got so many, what else to do than to eat them? If we don't, there could be overpopulation or something? And then we'd need hunters to kill them.. But not eat them.. And entirely stopping with eating meat is ridiculous. It's healthy. :)
Again, supply and demand. Also puppy mills are horrible never buy your pets from an actual pet store.
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Killing a human being is immoral. Eating a human being is immoral. Killing anything when there is an option around it is immoral. Killing an animal needlessly is immoral. Is eating meat immoral? Let's fully debate the morality of carnivores.
There are so many different things that can come to mind to negate your sentence. The fact that killing can be merciful, would you let a dog slowy and painfully die because you think killing or extinguishing life is immoral?
How about if you are eating an animal based off of your instinct for survival, is it wrong to kill to survive?
There are cases of cannibalism that are set off of people trying to survive in a wilderness that lacks any type of food, they try to eat the dirt, and try to eat the bark but they need the protein and energy that even human meat does provide.
You need to justify what it is exactly your trying to say is in fact the immoral part of eating meat.
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If it's roadkill meat or the animal died of natural causes I don't think it's "immoral". There are people who only eat roadkill, so I think, if you want and like to eat meat (not my case) and doesn't like the idea of animals living in farms like prisoners and then being slaughtered eating roadkill is what you should do. Because then it would be just like their natural cycle of life. They lived free and died free.
I'm not joking. There are several books teaching how to prepare/cook roadkill.
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I dont know if this is so true in the United States. If it were we could eat raw bacon and undercooked meat without fear of getting any sort of food-born illness, where in someplace such as Germany they dont have these problems because they dont have mega factory farms and processing centers like we do.
I said very clean, not sterile. It is pretty unreasonable to expect any sort of food to be entirely free from all sorts of bacteria and such without it being sterilized first.
Anyway, the law in most parts of the world, including America is that slaughter houses HAVE to follow very strict rules when it comes to slaughtering animals. People watch the process from start to finish to make sure it is "humane", and pretty much every single part of the animal is tested before any part of it is put to use. The carcasses have to be displayed in a way that makes them easy to inspect (cow heads have to be displayed in a way that makes it possible to see into the back of the throat for example) and samples of all parts of the animal (meat, bone, skin, blood, intestines, stomach and so on) are taken and tested before any part of the animal can actually be used.
Even in large factories all of these have to be followed. Any slaughter house that doesn't follow these laws is like I said probably some sort of illegal operation and chances are you'll never eat meat from a place like this anyway. That or the slaughter house is in some less developed country.
The videos you might have seen of animal cruelty, blood stained buildings littered with gore and whatever else are nothing at all like your average slaughter house. (It might seem strange, but in your average slaughter house it is pretty rare to even see blood).
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What about coconut water, yugi? How do you sterelize it? As shepperd would say, I guess we have a contradiction here!
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What about coconut water, yugi? How do you sterilize it? As shepperd would say, I guess we have a contradiction here!
You boil it. Seriously though, what does coconut water have to do with anything?
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It has to do that nobody sterilizes coconut water before drinking it but I wonder if there is anything living in it?
It is pretty unreasonable to expect any sort of food to be entirely free from all sorts of bacteria and such without it being sterilized first.
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It has to do that nobody sterilizes coconut water before drinking it but I wonder if there is anything living in it?
quit trolling/derailing the topic, damn.
inri cheetos :rolleyes:
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There are so many different things that can come to mind to negate your sentence. The fact that killing can be merciful, would you let a dog slowy and painfully die because you think killing or extinguishing life is immoral?
How about if you are eating an animal based off of your instinct for survival, is it wrong to kill to survive?
There are cases of cannibalism that are set off of people trying to survive in a wilderness that lacks any type of food, they try to eat the dirt, and try to eat the bark but they need the protein and energy that even human meat does provide.
You need to justify what it is exactly your trying to say is in fact the immoral part of eating meat.
I totally agree with this. We've always eaten meat and just because people learned how to communicate and got smarter doesn't
mean that we suddenly should become some leaf-eating pandas. Now sure, it's kinda disgusting thinking about the factories where
they make the meat, but some things are better not to think about nowadays anyway.
Also I'm no master at this. Vegans don't eat eggs nor drink milk, right? Why?
Also NO2. Above sounded kinda harsh, but I really don't give a damn about what you eat as long as you're pleased with yourself.
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I don't drink milk because I think it's cruel. You imagine having a machine suck your nipple dry for hours at a time. You imagine lactating not because it's your body's time to lactate, but because you've been pumped full of hormones that allow you to continue lactating after you've birthed and weaned. It just doesn't seem right to me. As far as eggs go, no thanks. I don't think they taste good, and I don't like the idea of eating unfertilized chicken.
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If it's unfertilized it's not chicken yet. This is like saying menstruation is the same as expelling unfertilized people. But I don't like eggs either.
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Also I'm no master at this. Vegans don't eat eggs nor drink milk, right? Why?
Drinking milk from another species or drinking mother's milk after being weaned is unnatural. No other animal does this so why should we?
Apart from that milk and eggs come from an animal. Vegans don't consume or use anything from an animal. I feel it's wrong to take something from an animal without their consent. Also, milk is used by the animal so it is wrong to take something that was (or I should say SHOULD) be used by them. Also yeah the eggs we eat aren't fertilized, but they are basically chicken periods.
We've always eaten meat and just because people learned how to communicate and got smarter doesn't
mean that we suddenly should become some leaf-eating pandas.
We've always murdered and started wars doesn't mean we still should...lol
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Honestly Doktormartini you post and post your stupid vegan stuff all the time with the stupidest arguments to everything. You are so obsessed with being so natural with your vegan stuff then stop using a computer, stop using a house stop using anything that we have developed because it is unnatural. We have these brains because of the meat we have eaten over the time we have evolved, and everything that has been invented is because of this ENEMY MUST NOT EAT MEAT
go away already
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sorry about this post i guess I have just gotten fed up with arguing with him many times before about the same subject and he never listens
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I feel it's wrong to take something from an animal without their consent.
SIGN HERE
HERE
INITIAL HERE
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Our brains got this evolved because we eat meat? Meat has to do with the evolution of our brain?
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You imagine lactating not because it's your body's time to lactate, but because you've been pumped full of hormones that allow you to continue lactating after you've birthed and weaned.
My neighbor was a dairy farmer and not once did he ever use hormones to get his cows to produce milk. In fact most dairy farmers prefer to do it the regular way of getting their cows pregnant once a year. This is preferable for a very good reason. They get a new calf out of it which they can use for extra income or to replace an older cow.
Our brains got this evolved because we eat meat? Meat has to do with the evolution of our brain?
http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html
There are tons of studies on the subject.
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http://berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/99legacy/6-14-1999a.html
There are tons of studies on the subject.
I see. I've always agreed that meat eating was essential for survival. I didn't know for evolution though (evolution and survival aren't the same correct?).
The fact is that it is not essential in todays civilized world and can be done.
I was gonna make a response to pseudo-emo's other comment but it had more to do with environmentalism than veganism.
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evolution isnt triggered by "meat-eating" - its not like the nutrients of the meat accumulate through generations. that reminds me of lysenko.
evolution is triggered by a bunch of random alleles coupled with natural selection. we arent meant to act in a certain way in the way goddamn doktormartini says we should "all be natural"" because that pressupposes that there is a god that designed us to act in a certain way. our bodies have certain phenotypes because that is how generally we survive better, but if our behavior changes because of technology we are going to evolve in a different way.
meat-eating is not essential in industrial civilization but a lot of things harmful to animals and the enviroment arent "necessary" (like the internet) for survival. as i said the vegan argument is stupid and if you dont want to harm mammals you should move to a cave
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Hahaha humans digestive system wasn't meant for vegetables? What? Every vitamin/mineral you get from meat can be obtained via a non animal source.
Let me clarify my post:
Of course human can consume vegetables and extract nutrition from it but not as efficiently as from meat. The only part in human's body which can absorb nutrition from vegetables is large instentine and it kind of does weak job at it.
This is kind of understandable when you remember that in human's earlier evolutionary stages we were first gatherers, hunter-gatherers and then carrion animals.
I admit that i am not SO sure about this as the details of the document of National Geographics i saw are not so clear anymore. What i do remember is that at some point in the history the food got scarce and it was by then human's jaw developed to eat dead carcasses of e.g. rabbits they found from desert - This information supports Alec's point that human's teeth are basically meant for meat.
The whole point of these physiological details is to support the point that human's development has been dependent on meat. (See: my reply to Marmot's post)
And yes, of course you can obtain all the vitamins/minerals from other sources, i did not say it was not possible. What i am saying though is that there is a big threshold to start being a one since it requires more efforts and resources.
How would we run out of food? There is food everywhere?
This is obvious: if everybody in Earth suddenly turned to vegans, we would not have enough space in Earth to turn into an arable land as we need to eat triple times more vegetables compared to meat.
So let's imagine some consequences: More than half of the current earth's human population dies in order that there would be enough food for everyone (environment's carrying capacity, you see). Strict birth control (i.e. LOTS OF DEAD BABIES IN THE RIVER) ensues to keep the population stagnant and to ensure that there will be enough food in the future. As we depend on harvest's, any crop failure has huge catastrophically consequences. As we need all the free land for fields, all the species will suffer and many will die out as they lose their habitats for the fields. This means both earth and water lands.
I wouldn't call this ideal, would i?
marmot:
evolution isn't triggered by "meat-eating" - its not like the nutrients of the meat accumulate through generations. that reminds me of lysenko.
The point is really that herbivores needs to eat constantly thorough the day while carnivores can satisfy the daily food demand with few meals in a day, thus giving them more time to focus on other things. An example of this from fauna is e.g. lions: with one meal a crocodile can satisfy their hunger for few months, spending that time to resting and saving energy (the advantage of cold-blooded is that you can just sit in the sun to upkeep your body temperature). Or as in human's case, spend time to creative/intellectually challenging stuff, thus promoting brain's evolution.
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I don't drink milk because I think it's cruel. You imagine having a machine suck your nipple dry for hours at a time. You imagine lactating not because it's your body's time to lactate, but because you've been pumped full of hormones that allow you to continue lactating after you've birthed and weaned. It just doesn't seem right to me. As far as eggs go, no thanks. I don't think they taste good, and I don't like the idea of eating unfertilized chicken.
Cows nowaday love having their nipples sucked by machines nowadays though. Like really love it. In the morning they can just stand there and wait for it, this is probably because of the breeding and because milk not being sucked can be painful but still if they like it why deny it?
I believe you have little experience of cows Lyric not only do they like having their milk sucked dry by a machine but they are also incredibly stupid and I'm pretty sure that they don't suffer in modern countries unless the farmer is an evil son of a bitch.
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evolution isnt triggered by "meat-eating" - its not like the nutrients of the meat accumulate through generations. that reminds me of lysenko.
evolution is triggered by a bunch of random alleles coupled with natural selection. we arent meant to act in a certain way in the way goddamn doktormartini says we should "all be natural"" because that pressupposes that there is a god that designed us to act in a certain way. our bodies have certain phenotypes because that is how generally we survive better, but if our behavior changes because of technology we are going to evolve in a different way.
meat-eating is not essential in industrial civilization but a lot of things harmful to animals and the enviroment arent "necessary" (like the internet) for survival. as i said the vegan argument is stupid and if you dont want to harm mammals you should move to a cave
the development of our modern brain is directly related to the large amounts of protein our primitive ancestors started getting when they started hunting.
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The problem with your arguments for not drinking milk (the whole cruelty thing) and a lot of your arguments for not eating meat are all flawed because they are based on the methods used. Not everyone is cruel in the way they milk their cows, hell, a lot of local farmers are downright NICE about it. They also see to it that the calves are treated the same way, because they are THEIR LIVELIHOOD. You are against milk and meat because you are against big factories, but THERE ARE OTHER OPTIONS. Blaming the whole for a part is fucking flawed logic.
Also:
Drinking milk from another species or drinking mother's milk after being weaned is unnatural. No other animal does this so why should we?
because other animals don't know how to and do not have the physical capability to milk other animals
Ugh I've said this before, but if a cat had working thumbs and the knowledge of how to milk a cow, it would probably spend all damn day drinking milk. It's a difference of does and CAN.
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I see. I've always agreed that meat eating was essential for survival.
Was or is? Is? I must know Dok!
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because other animals don't know how to and do not have the physical capability to milk other animals
Ugh I've said this before, but if a cat had working thumbs and the knowledge of how to milk a cow, it would probably spend all damn day drinking milk. It's a difference of does and CAN.
Actually, it has been proven that other animals may abuse the milk producing of the cow, i recall there was this horse calf who did this at one farm? I saw this documentary... - ugh this isn't really contributing too much to the discussion, i guess i am just agreeing with Velfarre here!
I love how much i rely on/cite to "hazy memories"................ "scientific proofs"... feh feh............
Was or is? Is? I must know Dok!
hahaha
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Actually, it has been proven that other animals may abuse the milk producing of the cow, i recall there was this horse calf who did this at one farm? I saw this documentary... - ugh this isn't really contributing too much to the discussion, i guess i am just agreeing with Velfarre here!
I love how much i rely on/cite to "hazy memories"................ "scientific proofs"... feh feh............
I've seen lots of news stories of grown animals surviving on the milk of other, larger animals (so not just babies who would normally drink milk), but I don't really have any I can find at the moment.
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Hmm our names are so similar but we are like night and day aren't we?
I eat almost exclusively meat for real meats (you know besides snacks) and even in the few meals I eat that aren't solely meat (such as noodles) there's usually meat involved. I eat alot of fruit too I s'pose but I'm not much of a veggy eater (in fact the only way I can enjoy a salad is if it's drowned in dressing and buried in bacon, eggs or those little ham things).
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When I saw your name at the bottom I thought it was Lyric. Lyric how come you never really try to debate your side? You just seem to randomly post more questions.
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Erm a little off-topic but:
You imagine having a machine someone suck your nipple dry for hours at a time.
:fogetshifty:
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I wasn't trying to argue for veganism, it's really difficult to be Vegan and actually healthy obviously. I don't think I would ever want to invest the amount of time it takes to plan a vegan diet; also, it's nice to have to follow a STRICT DIET and seriously opens my life up a lot more.
I'm a vegetarian, btw.
True they feed cows shitty grain. But the amount of meat that Americans consume calls for a great deal of extra feed to be produced. You heard from Leric, he eats meat 3 times a day. In my experience (not a valid argument, but whatever), this is really common among my fellow Americans. Because of this incredible demand for huge amounts of meat, we have things like factory farming which is horrible and pretty much one of the main reasons why I choose vegetarianism.
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Chickens are bred to eat them, they don't have a purpose other than being on my plate next to boiled rice and mayonnaise. Same goes for cows and pigs. So, stop romanticizing their lives please.
Also yeah, there are plenty of animals who can use the milk of other species. Pigs adopted lion cubs, dogs adopted cats and so on.
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Pigs adopted lion cubs
man I forgot about this one those pictures were adorable
edit: whoops it was a tiger, even still...also the other way around (pigs nursing from a tiger)....oh well it has been a long time since i saw this story
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I wasn't trying to argue for veganism, it's really difficult to be Vegan and actually healthy obviously. I don't think I would ever want to invest the amount of time it takes to plan a vegan diet; also, it's nice to have to follow a STRICT DIET and seriously opens my life up a lot more.
I'm a vegetarian, btw.
True they feed cows shitty grain. But the amount of meat that Americans consume calls for a great deal of extra feed to be produced. You heard from Leric, he eats meat 3 times a day. In my experience (not a valid argument, but whatever), this is really common among my fellow Americans. Because of this incredible demand for huge amounts of meat, we have things like factory farming which is horrible and pretty much one of the main reasons why I choose vegetarianism.
Veganism doesn't have to be planned much if you dont' give a shit about health. Just eat what you want (as long as it's vegan), make sure you are taking a multivitamin (I don't because I make sure I eat a wide variety of foods and fortified foods), and drink soymilk that is fortified.
Basically everyday I make sure I get some greens cause those are the most important, and fruits, and grains and all that.
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Veganism doesn't have to be planned much if you dont' give a shit about health.
good selling point, I want to try this veganism because i dont give a shit about being healthy
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just the fact that you are forced to take supplemental vitamins unless you are batshit crazy like doktormartini and forage for dandelions kind of proves it's not the MOST EFFICIENT, HEALTHY WAY TO LIVE
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Let me clarify my post:
This is obvious: if everybody in Earth suddenly turned to vegans, we would not have enough space in Earth to turn into an arable land as we need to eat triple times more vegetables compared to meat.
e.g. lions: with one meal a crocodile can satisfy their hunger for few months, spending that time to resting and saving energy (the advantage of cold-blooded is that you can just sit in the sun to upkeep your body temperature).
Are you serious? You have no idea what you are talking about. So much water and grain feed go into each pound of beef produced that the calorie ratio is seriously like 1 : 100. Eating meat is a horribly inefficient to get energy from the sun and into our bodies.
Also lions are mammals.
I don't think it's unethical to eat meat (we are clearly wired that way), but it's unethical to eat a lot of meat. Our fast food drive-through system isn't sustainable at all, and by eating meat with every meal (you only need a few ounces per day), you're supporting the factory farm infrastructure that's killing our topsoil, draining our aquifers and driving corn and grain prices up. People are starving in some parts of the world because they can't afford foods made with corn or grain due to a number of factors, but cattle feed generation is certainly one of them.
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If you knew anything about basic nutrition or macrobiology, you'd also know that vegetarianism simply does not work in the long run...
It remains the biggest argument against vegetarianism, which places morality on the wayside because of biological necessity.
CELLULOSE makes up plant tissue. The human body can't effectively digest cellulose (at this point in our evolutionary history), meaning the absorption of nutrients from most "vegan diets" is minimal at best.
Plants do not have large amounts of certain fatty acids (like polyunsaturated fats), proteins or any of the amino acids needed for humans to build muscle, repair muscle, and stay healthy. The human body assimilates "complete protein chains" from MEAT ONLY. We've known this for decades.
Vegans have to consume massive amounts of food to get anywhere near the number of required zinc, iron, and calicum that meat-eaters do. Or they have to take supplements, which is still bad - just because the bottle says you're getting "100%" of this or that doesn't mean you actually are. What you're getting is a nutrient in "pill form," where bioavailability is relatively low. Natural whole foods are always preferred.
Vegetarianism inhibits a healthy lifestyle, or at least makes achieving one exceedingly difficult. Though I guess it can be a noble thing to do?
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ok good job saying HUMANS CAN'T GET NUTRIENTS FROM VEGETABLES, it's still not true even if a hundred people say it is
the fact of the matter, is that while it's healthy to eat a VERY SMALL portion of meat each day, and that is the most healthy diet one can have, eating as much meat as almost all meat eaters do (in America at least, I can't speak for the diets of other countries) is far less healthy than a vegetarian diet AND it's possible to get the all the protein needed just by eating a balanced diet. Yeah it's harder for us to get protein from plants, but it's not IMPOSSIBLE, and certainly not "minimal at best". Usually the absorption rate of protein for non-meat sources is 50 % while it's usually pretty close to 100 % for meat sources. Additionally, it's easy to absorb protein from both milk and eggs.
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just the fact that you are forced to take supplemental vitamins unless you are batshit crazy like doktormartini and forage for dandelions kind of proves it's not the MOST EFFICIENT, HEALTHY WAY TO LIVE
I'm pretty sure almost everyone should take supplements or eat fortified foods regardless of diet because 90% of the people I know barely go a day without eating greens.
If you knew anything about basic nutrition or macrobiology, you'd also know that vegetarianism simply does not work in the long run...
It remains the biggest argument against vegetarianism, which places morality on the wayside because of biological necessity.
CELLULOSE makes up plant tissue. The human body can't effectively digest cellulose (at this point in our evolutionary history), meaning the absorption of nutrients from most "vegan diets" is minimal at best.
Plants do not have large amounts of certain fatty acids (like polyunsaturated fats), proteins or any of the amino acids needed for humans to build muscle, repair muscle, and stay healthy. The human body assimilates "complete protein chains" from MEAT ONLY. We've known this for decades.
Vegans have to consume massive amounts of food to get anywhere near the number of required zinc, iron, and calicum that meat-eaters do. Or they have to take supplements, which is still bad - just because the bottle says you're getting "100%" of this or that doesn't mean you actually are. What you're getting is a nutrient in "pill form," where bioavailability is relatively low. Natural whole foods are always preferred.
Vegetarianism inhibits a healthy lifestyle, or at least makes achieving one exceedingly difficult. Though I guess it can be a noble thing to do?
Nice sources :)
Celluose is hard to digest, that's why you are supposed to masticate your food thoroughly (I've read between 50-100 times) which I don't do it that much. When you chew food you break down the cells walls, this is also done via blending or juicing. Also we can get complete protein from other sources:
Soy, Spirulina, Wheatgrass, Maca, Quinoa, Hemp Seeds...etc
I take WHOLE FOODS SUPPLEMENTS. Spirulina is a whole food, Maca is a whole food, wheatgrass is a whole food...etc. It only inhibits an unhealthy lifestyle if you don't know shit about nutrition or don't care. When I talk about supplements I am not talking about vitamins. Vitamins are basically a bunch of vitamins, minerals, and trace minerals extracted from something and put into a pill. The supplements I take are naturally occurring foods.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polyunsaturated_fatty_acid
Flax seeds, hemp seeds, chia seeds, spirulina...etc all have omega fatty acids which are polyunsaturated so yes, they are found other places than just fish.
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Some people can't get over the fact that we're omnivores.
While it is possible to have a "happy ever after" life eating only vegetables, or by eating only meat, it is not optimal for a human being health. You see guys, our body was made in such a way that we can adapt to many circumstances, and survival is one of our primary functions. Of course, there are things we can't fully digest, including certain elements from both vegetables and meats, our body uses what it needs, everything else is defecated damn it.
If someone by devotion is a vegan or vegetarian, that's perfectly fine. But again, because someone is devoted to this by no means it should try to imply everyone else that what he or she is doing is the correct thing, it's just different.
EDIT: Oh yes btw, I agree with DoktorMartini in this one. But complete AA chains (complete proteins) can be found in MANY plant sources, and so EFA's (essential fatty acid's). My favorite plant-protein source is amaranth, and for EFA I'd go for chia seeds or flax.
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Killing a human being is immoral. Eating a human being is immoral. Killing anything when there is an option around it is immoral. Killing an animal needlessly is immoral. Is eating meat immoral? Let's fully debate the morality of carnivores.
So you registered just to post this? Your regdate and post date match up :gwa:.
On topic, the debate really boils down to "Do you believe that killing a cow or other farm animal is immoral." Believe it or not, some people with differing opinions to that of Peta and other 'Animal Rights' groups would say that they don't really find it objective to humanely kill a cow. (Note that everyone's definition of humane is different, and what Peta claims is humane absolutely differs from a slaughterhouse worker, but by 'humane' I of course mean the traditional way.)
Lyric, what can you tell us about Peta and the ALF? Do you consider the ALF terrorists?
Edit:
Because so much food, water (it is estimated that 90% of our water is used for agricultural purposes) that goes to the animals raised for food could thus be used to help the people in poverty.
John Robbins wrote a book called Diet for a New America where he has statistics. It came out in the 80's so you could make the claim it's outdated but it still presents good facts.
I stand corrected, this does go deeper than I had previously said. I've never thought of it that way, but I still see nothing morally wrong with eating meat from a purely 'is meat murder' standpoint.
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The world starves to sustain the meat industry and our "healthy" "over-consumptious" appetites,
the same amount of land it takes to fatten cattle, could be use to solve the present food crisis,
but look nobody really hears of it here, nor wishes to be reminded of such,
and nobodies going to change the way they live according to what I say.
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The world starves to sustain the meat industry and our "healthy" "over-consumptious" appetites,
the same amount of land it takes to fatten cattle, could be use to solve the present food crisis,
but look nobody really hears of it here, nor wishes to be reminded of such,
and nobodies going to change the way they live according to what I say.
For sure but solving the present food crisis isn't just "lol stop eating meat" it goes way more in depth than that. It's true though going vegan can help starving people.
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Wait what, how can going vegan help starving people?
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Wait what, how can going vegan help starving people?
Because so much food, water (it is estimated that 90% of our water is used for agricultural purposes) that goes to the animals raised for food could thus be used to help the people in poverty.
John Robbins wrote a book called Diet for a New America where he has statistics. It came out in the 80's so you could make the claim it's outdated but it still presents good facts.
The Hunger Argument:
Number of People worldwide who will die of starvation this year: 60 million
Number of people who could be adequately fed with the grain saved if Americans reduced meat intake by 10%: 60 million
Human beings in America: 296 million
Number of people who could be fed with grain and soybeans now eaten by US livestock: 1.3 billion
Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by people: 20%
Percentage of corn grown in US eaten by livestock: 80%
Percentage of protein wasted by cycling grain through livestock: 90%
Percentage of oats grown in US eaten by livestock: 95%
How frequently a child starves to death: every 2 seconds
Pounds of potatoes that can be grown on an acre: 20,000 lbs
Pounds of beef produced on an acre: 165 lbs
Percentage of US farmland devoted to beef production: 56%
Pounds of grain and soybeans needed to produce 1 pound of feedlot beef: 16 lbs.
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I think that's wonderful Doktormartini. I will see to it that my dad stops feeding his cows leftover pieces of the corn we make for ourselves and not specifically for them and see to it that they simply don't eat anything.
edit: to be clear i mean the corn that we as humans make for ourselves, not my family itself
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I think that's wonderful Doktormartini. I will see to it that my dad stops feeding his cows leftover pieces of the corn we make for ourselves and not specifically for them and see to it that they simply don't eat anything.
Uhhh it's not leftover food.
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Uhhh it's not leftover food.
A large amount of the corn cows eat is the corn that we make for us that isn't edible by us. For example, a lot of farmers buy corn that was hit hard by droughts. PERCENTAGE OF CORN GROWN does not mean PERCENTAGE OF GOOD CORN GROWN. It's making use of things we can't eat.
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A large amount of the corn cows eat is the corn that we make for us that isn't edible by us. For example, a lot of farmers buy corn that was hit hard by droughts. PERCENTAGE OF CORN GROWN does not mean PERCENTAGE OF GOOD CORN GROWN. It's making use of things we can't eat.
Yes that is true, but then you get into the problem of feeding animals like cows foods that are not natural to them.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-06-09-beef-cover_x.htm
Like, cows are herbivores why feed them ground up chicken???
f you don't finish your steak at a restaurant, did you know the leftovers might be dinner for a cow?
Based on this why couldn't we be able to send the left overs to people in poverty?
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Yes that is true, but then you get into the problem of feeding animals like cows foods that are not natural to them.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-06-09-beef-cover_x.htm
Like, cows are herbivores why feed them ground up chicken???
Because you are once again blaming a whole for a part. Most farms don't do that. Shit farms do that. You are saying DON'T EAT MEAT because shit farms do bad things. Most farms feed their cows hay and the parts of corn that we can't use--which is perfectly good and usable to cows (and perfectly natural for them, they aren't hard to convince about eating corn because they'll push each other around to do so). We aren't feeding them ground up chicken, bad farms are. Be against bad farms all you want, but it's still not a solid argument against eating meat entirely, just watching where you are getting that meat from.
Also, that article is 5 years old. Regulations change, man.
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So wait... "this here corn can't be consumed by humans...let's give it to poor people!" Is that your argument?
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So wait... "this here corn can't be consumed by humans...let's give it to poor people!" Is that your argument?
http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/cropmajor.html
According to the National Corn Growers Association, about eighty percent of all corn grown in the U.S. is consumed by domestic and overseas livestock, poultry, and fish production. The crop is fed as ground grain, silage, high-moisture, and high-oil corn. About 12% of the U.S. corn crop ends up in foods that are either consumed directly (e.g. corn chips) or indirectly (e.g. high fructose corn syrup). It also has a wide array of industrial uses including ethanol, a popular oxygenate in cleaner burning auto fuels.
Basically almost all the corn we grow is given to livestock, so it's not just shit corn.
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http://www.epa.gov/oecaagct/ag101/cropmajor.htmlBasically almost all the corn we grow is given to livestock, so it's not just shit corn.
this epa seems to be very credible, go government stuff
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/02/washington/02pest.html
http://government.zdnet.com/?p=3776
http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/04/23/epa.scientists.ap/index.html
if they do this kinda shit I wonder else they skew :gwa:
but in all seriousness, yeah most of the corn does go to livestock, most of it I wouldn't really want to feed to a human being because well, it really wouldn't do much the kind they feed to livestock for humans, so yeah, it is just shit corn. The corn we eat is harvested a lot earlier than when most of the crops are.
I wouldn't complain really if they decided to make more corn for human use, that'd be nice for all the people who are starving sure, but the only way they will do that is if the whole world decided to become sickly incredibly skinny and unhealthy vegans
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I wish I would have seen this topic earlier, considering I'm vegan too. But I can't really be bothered to read it all--I think I've heard this discussion over and over again already.
As for my two cents, I don't think eating meat is morally wrong. Of course, I hate the industries and so on, but if you're living in a hunter-gatherer tribe (which on the other hand most of us don't) and you like to e.g. catch fish and it keeps you alive then I see no reason why this would be immoral. I do however think that veganism has a lot of benefits which in my opinion makes it superior to an omnivorous diet. For example, meat (or the "production" of it) pollutes more than animal-free replacements/beans/whatever, and veganism is generally very healthy if you do it right.
Nevertheless, I strongly believe that there is no one right way for humans to live, and this is why I don't consider meat eating, you know, WRONG. I think meat is pretty unnecessary and destructive in this civilization, but wrong? No, you can adopt any diet you want to as far as I'm concerned. In the long run, veganism or vegetarianism probably will not save the planet. But if meat is avoidable and abstaining from it has many positive effects on both yourself, other living beings and the planet, I see no reason not to adopt an animal-free diet/lifestyle.
People often ask me "Why vegan?" and the best answer I have is "Why not?"
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because no one else is and we've been non-vegan for all of human history.
if that's really your best answer it's no wonder you don't get a followup question.
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not only what steel said but I'm pretty sure in every vegan topic we have come up with a long list of cons that doktormartini has just responded to with pseudo-science biased sources
this is getting old
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If you are so opposed to eating meat, what do you say to all of the farmers and their families who depend on the meat industry to survive
How is the struggling American economy supposed to compensate for a loss of a billion dollar industry?
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because no one else is and we've been non-vegan for all of human history.
if that's really your best answer it's no wonder you don't get a followup question.
Okay, I guess I didn't mean it was my best answer, but it's an answer that summarizes my ideas: For me there's nothing to lose by being a vegan. Only benefits to gain from.
Edit: For all of human history we've also been using physical violence and acting generally stupid. So that's pretty irrelevant in my opinion. Rather, the question is, what kind of society do you want to live in, in the future? I choose to live consciously, in harmony with animals and nature for a sustainable environment--there's nothing unnatural about that.
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well yeah but I'd rather live in a society where my dick gets sucked every day by anyone I point to, you pick and choose buddy!
basically I wish the people who fought for animal rights would stop conflating it as a huge issue when they could make real strides instead of DID YOU KNOW? NO ONE EATS BEEF REALLY ITS ACTUALLY A TYPE OF SLURRY.
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Okay, this has been grazed on but not really brought up fully (if I read properly) here. The fact is, if you are anti-meat, you want COWS TO GO EXTINCT. Or at least the species of cow we eat and get milk from, which are not only raised for eating/milking/breeding/eating/etc. (which people have already said), but have been raised that way for so long (I'm talking back to early agricultural times when people first started domesticating animals), that they have lost their original wild instincts. If we didn't raise them, they would not be able to survive on their own, and it'd be a waste of space and energy to raise cows we weren't eating.
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Okay, this has been grazed on but not really brought up fully (if I read properly) here. The fact is, if you are anti-meat, you want COWS TO GO EXTINCT. Or at least the species of cow we eat and get milk from, which are not only raised for eating/milking/breeding/eating/etc. (which people have already said), but have been raised that way for so long (I'm talking back to early agricultural times when people first started domesticating animals), that they have lost their original wild instincts. If we didn't raise them, they would not be able to survive on their own, and it'd be a waste of space and energy to raise cows we weren't eating.
No they haven't.
Come down here where I live, chickens and cows run free without any owners whatsoever because their owners just abandoned them. As a result, they mated and reproduced like hell and they still survive amazingly. I have yet to see a dead cow and cows walk around free here all the time. Infact, I even saw a cow look both ways before crossing the street once. They really don't need us for shit, really. Everything they need grows on the ground, and I don't think you can remove instincts that enable you to ESCAPE danger, so they'd be fine.
However, I'm not anti-meat because I love the taste of meat and I see no reason why I should stop eating it.
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yeah uh that works on a small scale but Alec is unfortunately right, if we released a bunch of cows and chickens we'd be seeing a great deal of problems within an incredibly short amount of time. ecosystems would spiral out of control!
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not only what steel said but I'm pretty sure in every vegan topic we have come up with a long list of cons that doktormartini has just responded to with pseudo-science biased sources
this is getting old
Haha National Institute of Health is biased? (hint I've sourced them before and my nutrition book/my sisters nursing books source them).
The UN is biased towards veganism? Lol how about there 500 pages report about veganism and the environment?
I will admit in the past I have sourced some pretty gay shit (lol www.whyvegan.com) but I don't see what the difference is between me sourcing a scientific article or me sourcing an article on a website which in turn cites that scientific article.
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I don't see what the difference is between me sourcing a scientific article or me sourcing an article on a website which in turn cites that scientific article.
Because you can cite anything and still be entirely biased in what you write.
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i forgot that i love topics like these because instead of discussion, they eventually just devolve into senseless arguments where one party is fairly reasonable and one is really really stupid and just keeps making ridiculous points that constantly get refuted before being replaced by yet more ridiculous points. i hope you will consider how shitty these kinds of topics are here before you make another batch! nobody is taking anything away from this. it's not like anyone's flaming or spamming or anything HEINOUS!!! like that but it is really pointless and dumb and not especially interesting at all.
ps by love i actually meant am really annoyed by
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yeah uh that works on a small scale but Alec is unfortunately right, if we released a bunch of cows and chickens we'd be seeing a great deal of problems within an incredibly short amount of time. ecosystems would spiral out of control!
At the moment 200 species go extinct each day and while this is largely due to human overpopulation, the meat industry is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than the entire transport sector. So yeah, I don't know but I think we're currently fucking up ecosystems, probably more than if cows were "set free" and returned to their natural max capacity.
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At the moment 200 species go extinct each day and while this is largely due to human overpopulation, the meat industry is responsible for more greenhouse gas emissions than the entire transport sector. So yeah, I don't know but I think we're currently fucking up ecosystems, probably more than if cows were "set free" and returned to their natural max capacity.
You realize that this would mean a very large period of time in which cows are roaming free, trampling everything, eating any crops they come across, shitting in the streets, and eventually dying wherever they land.
Do you realize what it would be like to have that many cows roaming free until they DIE?
Not to mention them unsettling the food chain wherever they are released, and eating all the food (do you realize how much a small herd of cows eats in one day, just grass-wise? They trim down an entire field, that's how much), causing other animals to starve.
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You realize that this would mean a very large period of time in which cows are roaming free, trampling everything, eating any crops they come across, shitting in the streets, and eventually dying wherever they land.
How do you think all the animals feel when we do exactly the same thing?
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Last I checked, at least personally, I'm not SHITTING IN THE STREETS. also not eating anything I see.
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Last I checked, at least personally, I'm not SHITTING IN THE STREETS. also not eating anything I see.
As for shitting in the streets, no. Overcrowding places, yes. And, I know quite a few people that eat everything they see (Not in the sense of like every single thing just eat a whole shit load).
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As for shitting in the streets, no. Overcrowding places, yes. And, I know quite a few people that eat everything they see (Not in the sense of like every single thing just eat a whole shit load).
God you are just fucking trying to sound ridiculous at this point.
Okay, so how will it kill a cow if we walk in front of it while it's walking? It probably won't do anything but trample us. But how is it going to be when a cow walks in front of one of our cars? GONNA PROBABLY KILL SOMEONE. Hitting a deer can total a car, hitting a cow is probably 10 times worse. We also don't wander into the gardens or crop fields people's LIVES depend on and eat everything (EVERYTHING DO YOU UNDERSTAND THIS EVERYTHING, not eating a bunch of McDonalds or whatever you are talking about people doing, EATING EVERYTHING FUCKING EVERY LAST BIT DUDE), then walk off to continue eating more. Seriously dude are you even suggesting that humans being in a HUMAN BUILT WORLD are the same thing as cows being let loose into an environment they do not belong in. Other animals have their own places, they are capable of living in a world dominated by humans and avoid them. Cows are domesticated, they are used to being fenced in and taken care of by people, and will just fuck shit up if let loose. Our cows have gotten loose before, it is a huge problem. A single cow can and has destroyed our entire vegetable garden, meaning we had almost no surviving vegetables (they also KNOCKED OVER A FEW YOUNG TREES). If we weren't a pretty wealthy family and had depended on them for our entirely livelyhood, we would have been fucked because of ONE cow. Now multiply that by the number of cows in the world.
Fuck dude I really can't say much else how do you not see the difference what the fuck is wrong with you.
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I just watched Grizzly Man and there's a scene where Treadwell finds a dead grizzly cub's arm and he just kind of falls apart and I thought instantly of Doktormartini. they both share this view of nature that is so completely off base.
also everyone watch Grizzly Man, what a good movie.
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If large industrial nations went vegan they would have to destroy(euthanize) most of the livestock. I'm not sure there is practical way around this. (I'm vegan by the way.)
*Edit
I guess if meat consumption and production gradually declined this would not be a worry versus a sudden event.
Then again you would have more animals dead(slaughtered) than if euthanized.
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If large industrial nations went vegan they would have to destroy most of the livestock. I'm not sure there is practical way around this. (I'm vegan by the way.)
*Edit
I guess if meat consumption and production gradually declined this would not be a worry versus a sudden event.
or you could just kill them all. two guys with an axe each would probably be able to do it within a year or so.
f*ck those stupid animals
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goooooooooooooddamn i don't think i should respond this since it increases the amount of pointless posts/arguements but i try to bring something new here then
Are you serious? You have no idea what you are talking about. So much water and grain feed go into each pound of beef produced that the calorie ratio is seriously like 1 : 100. Eating meat is a horribly inefficient to get energy from the sun and into our bodies.
Also lions are mammals.
Haha i meant crodociles with that lion thing.
I admit that i am not entirely sure about my information but i refuse that my posts are null and void because of this! Like i said this is what i have leant and remember so it is possible that i am wrong, yes, since i cannot check my sources easily. So i will admit my mistake if i am guilty of such, to promote discussion.
Let me clarify my argument. My argument is connected to Awakening's post about human's cellulose digestion: (short quote) CELLULOSE makes up plant tissue. The human body can't effectively digest cellulose (at this point in our evolutionary history), meaning the absorption of nutrients from most "vegan diets" is minimal at best.
I am saying that while cattle meat's efficiency isn't quite good (THIS is what i agree on), the amount of wheat/vegetables/etc required is still high due to inefficient cellulose digestion.
What i do agree on with you, maladroit, is that it is scientifically proven that cattle's meat efficiency is truly lower than pig's or poultry's so yeah, if western lifestyle is something guilty of then it is to the promoting of the more inefficient meat which is a luxury unfortunately becoming general around the NICs and to-be NICs (or so i understood.) Poultry and pig is still the most common meat produced outside West, like in e.g. Asia (China first comes in mind). So uh, Morality of cattle vs. poultry/swine? I don't think i have seen this issue raised on here yet.
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How do you think all the animals feel when we do exactly the same thing?
We don't know if animals can feel in the same capacities that we do, though.
Yay for being the most awesome species ever? I don't know where I'm going with this.
:hmm:
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We don't know if animals can feel in the same capacities that we do, though.
Yay for being the most awesome species ever? I don't know where I'm going with this.
:hmm:
His answer is already going to be "well this study says they do!" so this isn't really a good line of argument in this specific topic.
Also Doktormartini you eat the same food they put in sea monkey kit pouches. Thought I would tell you.
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His answer is already going to be "well this study says they do!" so this isn't really a good line of argument in this specific topic.
Also Doktormartini you eat the same food they put in sea monkey kit pouches. Thought I would tell you.
What algae?
A lot of cultures have eaten algae througout history because it is pretty much a whole food (meaning it contains pretty much everything our body needs).
Also a number of animals can feel some of the same things we do (fear, pain...etc).
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What algae?
A lot of cultures have eaten algae througout history because it is pretty much a whole food (meaning it contains pretty much everything our body needs).
Also a number of animals can feel some of the same things we do (fear, pain...etc).
Spirulina specifically but whatever, I think anything related to packaged sea monkey kits is probably the worst possible thing you could put in you, those things are ridiculous. They were invented by the guy who invented x-ray glasses.
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Velfarre stop trolling
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This isn't a topic at this point.
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well i thought this was gonna die but ok