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General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: Doktormartini on June 15, 2008, 02:00:54 am

Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Doktormartini on June 15, 2008, 02:00:54 am
Everyone knows the story of Adam and Eve, Cain and Abel as told in Genesis of the Bible.  I found a really interesting version of the story.  Not a version but an interpretation.  I think it is really interesting, and something that the majority of people don't think about regarding this story.  I'm not really looking to start a debate but lol it's inevitable posting something like this, I'm more looking for your opinions and thoughts.

Thanks dudes.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: HL on June 15, 2008, 06:01:11 am
or maybe its just symbolism of how easy humans are tempted.

naw...
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: `~congresman Ron paul~~ on June 15, 2008, 06:26:00 am
Quote
In the tribal world, because there was complete agreement that no one had the right way to live, there was a staggering glory of cultural diversity, which the people of our culture have been tirelessly eradicating for 10,000 years. For us, it will be paradise when everyone on earth lives exactly the same way.

what on earth is he talking about? unless he means CAVE PAINTINGS as culture, then there really wasn't cultural diversity amongst tribal peoples in the sense I think he's using the word. Oh, I'm not saying folks like the Indians don't have a culture; it's just not all that different from the culture of pygmies. They carve bows, forage, sometimes grow basic crops, and lived in mud/thatched huts or caves. They had chieftains even if the structure of it varied and usually had some sort of witch doctor. I guess I'm overgeneralizing, but I'm of the opinion that the REAL wealth of cultural diversity emerged when people moved to more varied parts of the world and built things like mosques and pyramids and the Parthenon, created elaborate art and social structures, did scientific research, and developed complicated religions, not scraping together a fragile existence in the woods.

I don't get this romanticism of everything 'NATURAL' that's going on with you doktormartini.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Mama Luigi on June 15, 2008, 07:12:38 am
Too long, did NOT read. Doktormartini, please sum this up or something.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: hero_bash on June 15, 2008, 07:28:29 am
Too long, did NOT read. Doktormartini, please sum this up or something.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Farren on June 15, 2008, 07:36:15 am
yeah fuck that less that ten words or it isn't worth my time
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Marmot on June 15, 2008, 07:51:18 am
marx and many other 19th century people already saw that civilization was equal to class society, in the sense that before civilization there was some sort of primitive communism and it was with the neolithic revolution and the growth of a layer of specialists that was sustained through the surplus that repressive societies appeared.

the people in 1962 were just harping on the ideas of these people.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Lars on June 15, 2008, 02:29:29 pm
can someone sum up the ORIGINAL Adam & Eve?

As far as I know they ate an apple of wisdom +1 got kicked out had two kids and one killed the other then they had a daughter that had incest sex with her brother that became the basis of mankind which explains why every human ever is flawed?????

Is there any more to it?
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Terin on June 15, 2008, 02:54:45 pm
Eve was made from Adam.  Eve and Adam were lured by the devil to eat from the Tree of Knowledge.  They ate it and realized they were naked, etc.  God found out and was upset because they weren't loyal and didn't listen to his rule that they could not eat from that tree.  They were cast out.  They had two kids -- Cain and Abel.  Cain later kills Abel because Abel pleases God more than Cain (I believe by being a farmer/herder or something).

I may have misinterpreted part of it...  But here's what I got out of it:

Basically what the article was saying is that Cain and Abel are more or less the two kinds of peoples in this world.  The people who were primitive and were pleasing (like Abel) and those who were frustrated with their pleasantness (Cain).  It seemed like the author was making a lot of comparison of Christian missionaries murdering/converting natives in America, etc, (as Cain did) because they "knew" what was right.  Whereas, Abel, who was originally pleasing to God, truly, was compared to the indigenous people who were forced into something else.  And basically that Cain represents a society where we justify and create rules that people will break ANYWAY and punishes us for them; Abel, on the other hand, represents indigenous tribes-people that were naturalistic and had solutions and lived decently -- but Cain killed Abel.  The author brought up SEVERAL times that the tribes people had ways of handling and dealing with things that were mostly successful, granting that people were essentially good, but had some ability to do bad, but it tried to rehabilitate them in some sense, rather than punish them, for it.

My own take -- I don't know if I can agree completely that animism or that tribs folk had it all right.  I mean, take cannibalistic tribes-people or tribes people that have truly...  barbaric customs to us.  Maybe the point was that natural selection is what got us this far -- that the cannibals technically destroyed the weaker of their tribes and it was "normal" for them.  I don't know.  I can definitely see a lot of valid points about it, but I think it's more or less like applied Psychology today -- lots of GOOD theories, but ultimately shortcomings in all of them -- some universal mesh may be what is truly required.  And with that, I mean to say that you just need an open mind.

--Terin
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Doktormartini on June 15, 2008, 05:32:49 pm
I guess he is saying agriculture is evil (well, Quinn's theory is mass agriculture, what he calls totalitarian agriculture) is evil.  He says This story was written by Semitic people who did not really practice agriculture (they were nomads I believe).  Cain tilled the soil, and Abel did the flocks.  Since agriculture is evil according to Quinn, that is why he said God did not accept Cain's sacrifice but accepted Abel's.  Semitic peoples saw that and this is why they wrote the story.

Again it's just someones take on a story so yeah.

Also yeah Terin.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: fatty on June 15, 2008, 05:53:24 pm
I guess he is saying agriculture is evil (well, Quinn's theory is mass agriculture, what he calls totalitarian agriculture) is evil.  He says This story was written by Semitic people who did not really practice agriculture (they were nomads I believe).  Cain tilled the soil, and Abel did the flocks.  Since agriculture is evil according to Quinn, that is why he said God did not accept Cain's sacrifice but accepted Abel's.  Semitic peoples saw that and this is why they wrote the story.

Again it's just someones take on a story so yeah.

Also yeah Terin.
I bet he is a fan of Robert J. Sawyer's Neanderthal Parallax series.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: 4Dsheep on June 15, 2008, 08:30:26 pm
The guy begins with noting how Cain is a farmer and Abel is a hunter-gatherer; Cain is working hard but doing whatever he wants, while Abel takes whatever he comes across, but having no choice in the matter. Because the story is written by the Abel types, Cain types are evil because they drove the Abel types off to have more land to farm on.

Then, the guy talks about how God is continually making decisions (his example: letting a fox catch a pheasant is good for the fox but evil to the pheasant, while letting the pheasant escape the fox is good for the pheasant but evil to the fox). To Abel types, the Cain types are doing just that; making decisions on good and evil, basically what God should be doing, but not doing it as well as God would have: The Cain types just do what is good for them but evil to everyone else (the Abel types).

According to the guy, this is what the whole apple bit is about: Adam (the emblematic figure for Man) has gained the knowledge of good and evil, which, to Abel types, is basically stealing God's power; they think Man should have just continued to be a hunter gatherer, because when you give them the power of God (knowing good and evil and deciding on it), they'll use it for selfish (evil) ends.

Then he goes on about how we, the Cain types, are still thinking we own the world and the Abel types (primitive tribes) aren't really important, and this is where I fell asleep.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Teron on June 16, 2008, 01:58:48 am
    He makes some interesting points, but he back loads the crazy ( I assume quite purposely. )  This is hardly a new spin though, as this topic has been discussed in one way or another all over the place, one just has to dig a little.  The nomadic/sedentary dichotomy is an important topic for a lot of historians particularly in the late medieval period. 

    However, I think he is over simplifying the nomadic elements.  Despite making many caveats in order to show how complex he sees them, he still has no problem in creating ridiculously superficial generalizations.  I am not going to get too much into my thoughts as I have a tendency to ramble, but the civilization builders aren’t the only ones that take.  Furthermore tribal governments have their own flaws, and their own godlike tendencies.  The problem becomes where you draw the line between the two sides.  If he just suddenly declares that the nomadic elements are no longer nomadic because they exhibit these “sedentary” proclivities then I’m not sure his argument is all that sound.  Still it was a pretty interesting read and before he gets into the politics of things it was pretty good.
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: big ass skelly on June 16, 2008, 02:06:40 am
I guess he is saying agriculture is evil
If that's actually his point I'm glad i didn't read this
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Swordfish on June 16, 2008, 09:02:39 am
It's basically saying to take the name Adam for its literal meaning, that MAN as a whole not Adam the person took from the tree of knowledge of good and evil and therefore has to work the land with the sweat of his brow. Only the tree is symbolic and that the knowledge is from having to kill others so that they can gain more land to work to grow themselves food.
Something like that :P

sadly i read it all :sweat:
Title: New Spin on Adam and Eve!
Post by: Mr. Actionist on June 17, 2008, 07:47:19 am
So...in the first half (the bit about Adam and Eve, etc), is he saying the Bible is symbolic?