Post by: Bravo on June 29, 2008, 01:09:59 am
French Zeuhl
The second in a series of highly successful articles on prog will focus on the movement known as Zeuhl, which sounded very similar to jazz fusion during its origins, and still does, but is also catagorized by extremely prominent bass, complex drumming, and chanting. The genre was developed by the French band Magma in the 70s, and later spread to Japan in the 90s. The Japanese vision of Zeuhl is much more hectic, chaotic, and avant-garde. This article will focus on the Progressive Fusion movement in France, which I will from now on refer to as French Zeuhl.
Hey, what does "Zeuhl" mean anyway?
It is a word in the Kobaian language that means "celestial". Its origins come from this band:
Magma
Zeuhl was developed by the band Magma, whose albums are all related in that they chronicle the mythology of the planet Kobaia. This is not important in understanding their music however, as the lyrics are sung in Kobaian, a language created by Christian Vander, drummer, leader, and only constant force behind the band during its existance.
While the statement sounds radical, Magma was French Zeuhl's ONLY real band during the 70s. Any others were offshoots in which one or more former members of Magma participated. The 80s brought unique bands with them, and I shall discuss some of them here as well.
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| Kobaia (1970) | 1001° Centigrades (1971) | Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh (1973) | Köhntarkösz (1974) | Wurdah Ïtah (1974) | Üdü Wüdü (1976) | K.A. (2004) |
As this is the most important band in Zeuhl, the majority of their albums can be considered essential listening. Their most famous is Mekanïk Destruktïw Kommandöh (shortened to MDK for sanity). It should definately be on your playlist if you like Zeuhl. There is an alternate version on their "live" album Retrospektiw I-II released in 1981 (claimed to be live but actually recorded in studio and overdubbed with crowd noise) which I also recommend. MDK has very prominent brass and choir sections, making for a majestic experience, though these additions sometimes interfere with the dynamics and subtleties. The version on Retrospektiw I-II does not have a brass section. Also, this is technically all one song.
The albums I would recommend first however are Udu Wudu and Kobaia (their two disc debut). Udu Wudu I consider their most accessible along with Attahk (1978), the latter unfortunately having a good to weak track ratio of about 1:1. Their debut is good for fusion fans who would prefer a more subtle and jazzy introduction to Magma. From Udu Wudu and Kobaia proceed to MDK and then Kontarkosz. From here, if you are a big jazz or fusion fan, try 1001 degrees Centigrades. If you are the type of Zeuhl fan who wants to stay away from jazz for the most part, go get K.A. (full name Kontarkosz Anteria), their first studio album in 20 years, which is a much welcome return to form after three weaker albums. Finally, once you become fully indoctrinated in the ways of Zeuhl, listen to Wurdah Itah, originally released as a Christian Vander solo album but now part of the Magma catalogue.
By the way, their weaker albums are not "weaker" per se, they just contain more simple compositions and sound almost poppy/disco-ish.
During the 80s Christian Vander continued in a more jazz orientated direction with Offering. He recently brought Magma back together to record new material.
You mentioned something about a mythology?
Nothing gets by you! Correct, this mythology is the unifying force behind much, if not all, of Magma. Because of the lack of information given to fans by the band, much of the story is up for debate and speculation. In fact, in their debut album, the language was not much more than gibberish. It was not fully developed until later albums with the help of Klaus Blasquiz.
Anyway, here is the known plot as written by Peter Thelen:
Hidden content (Click to reveal)
The first album, a 2 LP set simply title MAGMA [or, Kobaia], is where the story begins. The first disc concerns itself with the departure and journey to Kobaia, arrival at their destination, the long and patient process of building a new society according to their vision, and their process of learning how to live in harmony with their new surroundings, while attaining a high degree of technological advancement. The second disc involves the rescue of a foreign spaceship which gets into orbital difficulties over Kobaia- this ship turns out to be manned by a crew from Earth. The visitors tell of the continued degeneration and disasters that have afflicted Earth, and at the same time are impressed with the progress that the Kobaians have made, their philosophy and societial organization, and how they have learned to live as one at peace with their surroundings. The Earthmen request that the Kobaians visit Earth and attempt to propagate their philosophy in order to save society from its certain destruction. After some deliberation, a small party agrees to accompany the stranded visitors on their journey home.
1000 DEGREES CENTIGRADES, the second Magma album from 1971, begins with the arrival of the Kobaian party back on Earth, and the seemingly friendly welcome they receive. The Earth people listen to the stories of the establishment and growth of Kobaian civilization, to their philosophy, and ideas for the betterment of life on Earth through purification and spiritual enlightment. But after airing these ideas at a meeting with the Earth authorities, the Kobaian party is promptly imprisoned and their spacecraft is impounded. But a message is sent to Kobaia, and a rescue effort is begun. The Kobaian rescus party offers the Earth authorities the choice of releasing the imprisoned Kobaians, or face certain destruction by the Kobaian's ultimate weapon. The imprisoned Kobaians are promptly released, and although they vow never to return, their visit is to be remembered by the few they came in contact with for a long period of time, their ideas preserved and passed on for future generations.
One of these people who remembered the essence of the Kobaians' visit was a man named Nebehr Gudahtt, a spiritualist who is the subject of the third Magma album, MEKANIK DESTRUKTIW KOMMANDOH, recorded in 1973. His message to the people of Earth is that their only salvation from an ultimate and certain doom is through self purification and communication with the divine spirit of the supreme being, the Kreuhn Kohrman. With this album we are introduced to the story of the Theusz Hamtaahk (literal translation: Time of Hatred) concerning the period of time on Earth between the Kobaian visit and the celestial march for enlightenment led by Nebehr Gudahht which concludes this album. At first Gudahtt's message is rejected, and the people march against him, but as they march they begin to question their very existance and purpose. One by one, they begin to see his truth, slowly reaching enlightenment, and begin to march with him instead of against him.
MDK is the third movement of the Theusz Hamtaahk, which leads one to the question- where are the first and second movements? Originally, the Theusz Hamtaahk was ambitiously planned to be three cycles of three movements each (nine movements total), but the idea was apparently abandoned after MDK- at least further movements beyond that point were not identified as such. The second movement appeared the following year as the soundtrack to the Yvan Lagrange film 'Tristan et Yseult,' recorded by a scaled down 4-piece version of the band and officially listed as a Christian Vander solo record. In fact its CD re-release is credited to Magma and restores its proper title WURDAH ITAH (translates to: Dead Earth). The first movement of Theusz Hamtaahk, a full length thirty-five minute opus, was performed regularly live, but was not released on record until the 1980 live album RETROSPEKTIW I-IV.
With their forth album KOHNTARKOSZ, Magma began what is presumed to be the first movement of the second cycle of the Theusz [H]amtaahk, the story of Ementeht-Re. Here the story gets a bit more cryptic, intentionally so, as by this time Magma's music is taking on a more spiritual and purely musical nature, where vocals seem to be more an element of the music than a vechile for delivering lyrics. Kohntarkosz is a man who discovers an old Egyptian tomb of an ancient master, murdered before reaching his aim, which was immortality. When he enters the tomb, he has a visioin of Ementeht-Re, and all of his secrets are then revealed to Kohntarkosz.
The story goes on. A presumed second movement of Ementeht-Re was never recorded in one piece, but is scattered randomly across the next two albums MAGMA LIVE (the tracks 'Hhai' and 'Ementeht-Re') and UDU WUDU (the tracks 'Zombies,' 'Soleil D'Ork' and 'De Futura'). At this point, the story becomes increasingly unclear. Other tracks like 'Om Zanka' and 'Gamma Anteria' (from the live album INEDITS) and 'Ptah' (from the unauthorized live MEKANIK ZEUHL WORTZ) seem to be into the general concept as well, but Vander offered few clues as to where the story goes after Kohntarkosz. Magma's 1978 album ATTAHK appears to have a theme also, but it seems to be unique unto itself and not tied with any of the previous records. Again, Vander offers few clues. This also marks the last studio album which is sung exclusively in the Kobaian language.
1000 DEGREES CENTIGRADES, the second Magma album from 1971, begins with the arrival of the Kobaian party back on Earth, and the seemingly friendly welcome they receive. The Earth people listen to the stories of the establishment and growth of Kobaian civilization, to their philosophy, and ideas for the betterment of life on Earth through purification and spiritual enlightment. But after airing these ideas at a meeting with the Earth authorities, the Kobaian party is promptly imprisoned and their spacecraft is impounded. But a message is sent to Kobaia, and a rescue effort is begun. The Kobaian rescus party offers the Earth authorities the choice of releasing the imprisoned Kobaians, or face certain destruction by the Kobaian's ultimate weapon. The imprisoned Kobaians are promptly released, and although they vow never to return, their visit is to be remembered by the few they came in contact with for a long period of time, their ideas preserved and passed on for future generations.
One of these people who remembered the essence of the Kobaians' visit was a man named Nebehr Gudahtt, a spiritualist who is the subject of the third Magma album, MEKANIK DESTRUKTIW KOMMANDOH, recorded in 1973. His message to the people of Earth is that their only salvation from an ultimate and certain doom is through self purification and communication with the divine spirit of the supreme being, the Kreuhn Kohrman. With this album we are introduced to the story of the Theusz Hamtaahk (literal translation: Time of Hatred) concerning the period of time on Earth between the Kobaian visit and the celestial march for enlightenment led by Nebehr Gudahht which concludes this album. At first Gudahtt's message is rejected, and the people march against him, but as they march they begin to question their very existance and purpose. One by one, they begin to see his truth, slowly reaching enlightenment, and begin to march with him instead of against him.
MDK is the third movement of the Theusz Hamtaahk, which leads one to the question- where are the first and second movements? Originally, the Theusz Hamtaahk was ambitiously planned to be three cycles of three movements each (nine movements total), but the idea was apparently abandoned after MDK- at least further movements beyond that point were not identified as such. The second movement appeared the following year as the soundtrack to the Yvan Lagrange film 'Tristan et Yseult,' recorded by a scaled down 4-piece version of the band and officially listed as a Christian Vander solo record. In fact its CD re-release is credited to Magma and restores its proper title WURDAH ITAH (translates to: Dead Earth). The first movement of Theusz Hamtaahk, a full length thirty-five minute opus, was performed regularly live, but was not released on record until the 1980 live album RETROSPEKTIW I-IV.
With their forth album KOHNTARKOSZ, Magma began what is presumed to be the first movement of the second cycle of the Theusz [H]amtaahk, the story of Ementeht-Re. Here the story gets a bit more cryptic, intentionally so, as by this time Magma's music is taking on a more spiritual and purely musical nature, where vocals seem to be more an element of the music than a vechile for delivering lyrics. Kohntarkosz is a man who discovers an old Egyptian tomb of an ancient master, murdered before reaching his aim, which was immortality. When he enters the tomb, he has a visioin of Ementeht-Re, and all of his secrets are then revealed to Kohntarkosz.
The story goes on. A presumed second movement of Ementeht-Re was never recorded in one piece, but is scattered randomly across the next two albums MAGMA LIVE (the tracks 'Hhai' and 'Ementeht-Re') and UDU WUDU (the tracks 'Zombies,' 'Soleil D'Ork' and 'De Futura'). At this point, the story becomes increasingly unclear. Other tracks like 'Om Zanka' and 'Gamma Anteria' (from the live album INEDITS) and 'Ptah' (from the unauthorized live MEKANIK ZEUHL WORTZ) seem to be into the general concept as well, but Vander offered few clues as to where the story goes after Kohntarkosz. Magma's 1978 album ATTAHK appears to have a theme also, but it seems to be unique unto itself and not tied with any of the previous records. Again, Vander offers few clues. This also marks the last studio album which is sung exclusively in the Kobaian language.
The short version:
Kobaia: Some people leave a dying Earth and found a new society on Kobaia.
1001 Degrees Centigrades: The Kobaians visit Earth to teach their philosophies, but are treated badly and vow never to return.
Theusz Hamtaahk & Wurdah Itah: The first and second movements of the Theusz Hamtaahk (translated as Time of Hatred) trilogy (third movement being MDK). Not much informtion, but assume that time passes and things on Earth get more and more desparate.
MDK: A man who believes in the Kobaian teachings tries to lead everything to adopt those ways. In the end they do.
Kohntarkosz: A man discovers the tomb of Ementeht-Re, who discovered the secret of eternal life but died before using it.
Okay enough with the Magma already!
Zao
The earliest offshoot band from Magma, Zao was founded by two former Magma members who left after recording Kobaia and 1001 Degrees Centigrades. They left because they did not want to participate in the direction Magma was taking with MDK. Instead, Zao continued in the vein of Magma's first two albums. However they progressed away from Zeuhl with each release and more towards normal fusion. Their later albums have been compared to Weather Report.
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| Z=7L (1973) | Osiris (1975) | Shekina(1975) | Kawana (1976) | Typhareth (1977) |
This is their entire discography (other than a 1994 reunion album not worth mentioning). As you go from left to right you gradually get less and less Zeuhl influence until finally you are left with Typhareth which has almost no connection to Zeuhl, as the made up language (not Kobaian though) chanting present in their first three albums is gone. Zao has gone through line up changes in between each album and each sounds slightly different as a result.
Eskaton
Eskaton formed in 1970 under the name Eskaton Kommandkestra, but did not record anything until almost 10 years later, releasing three albums.
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| 4 Visions (1979) |
If I said that Eskaton took all that was good and beautiful about Zeuhl and put it all on one very acessible album sung in French, would you do all you could to get this little gem into your possession? I rest my case. The bassist has catchy licks that rival any pop/disco group and the overall sound is more rock based than jazz based (as Magma's was). I almost think this would be a better introduction to Zeuhl than Magma, but that would be heresy wouldn't it? Regardless, get this album! Their other two follow along the same lines, but aren't quite a match.
Weidorje
About the same quality of amazing as Eskaton, while keeping more faithful to Magma. All this means is that they sound more like Magma than Eskaton did, due in part or in whole to the two ex-Magma members (bassist Bernard Paganotti and keyboardist Patrick Gauthier) involved. Their name is taken from a track off Magma's Udu Wudu album.
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| Weidorje (1978) |
Only one recorded studio album, with two live bonus tracks. I would compare the sound to Udu Wudu era Magma, though Weidorje is more funky.
Dün
An oddity, mainly because it sounds closer to Japanese Zeuhl (like Happy Family) than French. The sound is much more chaotic than traditional French Zeuhl, whose sound has always been much more cohesive.
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| Eros (1981) |
The sheer randomness of this lone release is enough to put off potential listeners. Eros, based on the Dune series by Frank Herbert, is probably what Zeuhl would sound like if Fantomas had a go at the genre. As a whole each track is impossible to understand. Dissected however, each individual section (skip to any part of any song and listen to it for a minute and see if you aren't impressed) is like a gold mine of unusual melody and unique sounds.
Eider Stellaire
Founded in 1980 by the drummer of Offering (is Vander like the leader of some musical cult?), Eider Stellaire is like a mixture of Magma and Eskaton, but not as oppressive as the first or as loud as the second. Yet darker sounding than either. They put out three albums, plus one unofficial one which I'd only try if you really like the others. In general, the drumming is more simple and straightforward than that of the other bands.
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| I (1981) | II (1986) | III (1987) |
Their first is their best so go with that first. Their second is less accessible but pretty good, so get it next. Their third is a bit different and somewhat not as good, so use your judgement. The first two are worthy acquisitions for hardcore Zeuhl fans while the third sounds kind of similar to the next band on this list, minus the avant-garde.
Shub-Niggurath
Shub-Niggurath is equal parts Zeuhl and Univers Zero. Pretty different from all of the above. I would recommend this Zeuhl-chamber rock hybrid to fans avant-garde and RIO (basically, if you like The Red Masque, Sleepytime Gorilla Museum, and of course Univers Zero, you'll feel at home here). I like this though and I find similarities with Zeuhl so I believe they are worth checking out.
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| Les Morts Vont Vite (1986) |
This is the only album of theirs I've heard so its the only one I can recommend. Also, rumor has it that while their other two albums: C'Étaient De Très Grands Vents and Testament are pretty good, this one is their best.
Wow, you sure wrote a lot you should be promoted to admin or something.
Hey yeah I know.
And that's French Zeuhl (and all its variations) for you in a single post. Happy hunting!
Post by: Shepperd on June 29, 2008, 01:15:02 am
Post by: ThugTears666 on June 29, 2008, 01:28:44 am
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on June 29, 2008, 01:43:18 am
Post by: DarkPriest on June 29, 2008, 10:59:52 am
my issue with prog rock is that just like metal they think they are so epic, virtuosos, so elaborate, so much *waves hands over head* it ends up ridiculpously pretentious and boring
and still they manage to sound better than most other rock bands out there, whahay!
I've listened to some Magma earlier (I think the album was MDK), but I'm gonna give some of these bands a shot.
Post by: Bravo on June 29, 2008, 06:52:11 pm
my issue with prog rock is that just like metal they think they are so epic, virtuosos, so elaborate, so much *waves hands over head* it ends up ridiculpously pretentious and boringthat's the best part!
but seriously, are you just gonna rag on prog everytime it gets mentioned? maybe you're just listening to the wrong stuff though. what bands have you heard?
Magma is one of the best prog groups that has ever existed but I had no idea they had this gay subculture.yeah its pretty crazy.
Post by: thecatamites on June 29, 2008, 07:07:30 pm
EDIT: Hahaha, it turns out that the Flying Luttenbachers track 'De Futura' is actually a cover of a Magma song! I'm definitely checking those guys out... (here's the luttenbachers version btw: http://www.epitonic.com/index.jsp?refer=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.epitonic.com%2Fartists%2Ftheflyingluttenbachers.html)
EDIT 2: I checked out some of their tracks like this one http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LN4gSiRjlIc&feature=related and they sound cheesy but cool, so I might pick up that Kobaia album you mentioned.
Post by: Kaworu on June 29, 2008, 07:49:41 pm
It's suprising how Zeuhl has been taken in Japan, and indeed the only good Japanese bands are their prog/fusion/freakout bands (acid mothers temple \m/) so bands like Ruin and Koenji Hyakkei are really interesting. It's really different than french Zeuhl, it's more experimental interms of what they do but the music itself tend to be so much weaker, but it's great that it's still being carried out by relatively modern bands.
Post by: Shepperd on June 29, 2008, 09:13:16 pm
and still they manage to sound better than most other rock bands out there, whahay!what the hell does this mean?
I agree it sounds better than metal.
I can make a huge list of rock bands that sound fantastic.
bravo:
heard
Led Z, Pink Floyd, ELP, YES, Rick Wakeman, Marillion, Van Der Graaf, Mars Volta, Jethro Thull, Genesis, King Crimson.
Heard none of the bands in tjhis topic and am nor really interested in checking em out.
also, magma.. sounds pretty gay of a word
Post by: Kaworu on June 29, 2008, 09:27:14 pm
~DJ Soup
Post by: Bravo on June 29, 2008, 11:38:07 pm
and you've heard a lot of the MAIN prog bands, so did you like them at all or they not interesting? As for Zeuhl, I doubt you'll enjoy it because, at least with Magma, "they are so epic, virtuosos, so elaborate" and overall, a band you have to be very patient to listen to. still though, listen to De Futura (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a73XLkf43-s) and see if you don't enjoy it for its rather simple dance-able rythem. Its closer to punk in spirit than you think, if you ignore the MASSIVE drum kit (and the 2nd drummer). and regardless of your taste in music, the buildup at 6:20 is just great stuff.
Holy shit, man, you really know your stuff! I've never heard of any of these guys before, but they sound really cool... I'll check them up on youtube and tell you what I think soon...Thanks bro, though I would say the same about your American punk articles. We've all got genres of choice. And the track you heard was a kinda bad one from Attahk. Try this one from the same album (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HniJ-kMlelE&feature=related), as its imo the best song from it, rivaling any song from their prime, while the rest of the album isn't quite up to par.
Post by: Shepperd on June 29, 2008, 11:58:52 pm
Whenever people post a topic about music I haven't heard about, the first (and second and third and only) thing I will do is post about how closed minded I am:fogetcool:
~DJ Soup
(that's inaccurate anyway)
I practically like all genres except metal. For all these genres there are bands i like and bands i dont. WHAT A CLOSED MINDED TASTE DEAR FUCK!!
So I take pleasure in telling you that you are DEADLY wrong.
Besides that's the conclusion I got from listening to several prog bands. Only a few are good.
But most are all the same to me, which is why I find little to no incentives for me to explore this genre. I usually don't like music that sounds like it was thought too much.
Post by: Bravo on June 30, 2008, 12:03:51 am
also, zeuhl is pretty different sounding from the Yes and Genesis you're judging the genre on. and despite the collective adjective "progressive", there are a hell of a lot of differences between sub-genres. most of the time, "progressive" is used to label bands that broke from the mold and tried new things, and a rebel/punk/free thinker such as yourself probably thinks highly of people and bands that do that. (this is a pretty persuasive argument I'm bringing to the table that should make you want to get rid of your preconceived notions about what prog is. HINT: Its not Yes or ELP.)
Post by: Shepperd on June 30, 2008, 12:08:29 am
that kind of translates to: I don't like music that sounds like someone wrote it.dude, Frank Zappa is my hero.
Math Rock is also a genre guys usually sit down to come up with the music but the music itself doesn't sound like the guys were thinking a lot to come up with those angular intertwining riffs.
Prog however really sounds like they sat down and started writting a Tolkien description. It is bland, man, and ultimately gets annoying.
Post by: Bravo on June 30, 2008, 12:16:57 am
dude, Frank Zappa is my hero.point taken about zappa.
Math Rock is also a genre guys usually sit down to come up with the music but the music itself doesn't sound like the guys were thinking a lot to come up with those angular intertwining riffs.
Prog however really sounds like they sat down and started writting a Tolkien description. It is bland, man, and ultimately gets annoying.
math rock...all I know is battles so i dunno about the genre at whole but it is kind of cool, though I can't sit through all of Mirrors as it gets samey and boring.
also, have you heard discipline by King Crimson (you're a fan of them so i suppose you did). i consider it one of the first math rock albums ever written.
also also, i don't really get the metaphor. because i don't find most of the music bland, its that exact methodology and experimentation which I love. admitedly some bands are bad at this, but i don't listen to them. if for you this by extention mean, all of a certain genre, well agree to disagree I suppose (and if you don't agree on that then get out cause I don't want to hear your whining!)
Post by: Shepperd on June 30, 2008, 12:23:03 am
most of the time, "progressive" is used to label bands that broke from the mold and tried new things, and a rebel/punk/free thinker such as yourself probably thinks highly of people and bands that do that. (this is a pretty persuasive argument I'm bringing to the table that should make you want to get rid of your preconceived notions about what prog is. HINT: Its not Yes or ELP.)Prog is when song structure progresses. It doesn't directly imply innovative different music.
Besides breaking the mold and new shit doesn't always come with good outcomes, that's why I am pointing out.
EDIT: not a fan of King Crimson, just dig what I heard, havent heard that song. (you contradicted yourself about math rock, btw)
Tolkien description, I mean if prog where to be a type of book, it'd be a fantasy book. I don't like fantasy book, they expect me to believe that shit.
Post by: Bravo on June 30, 2008, 01:38:08 am
Prog is when song structure progresses. It doesn't directly imply innovative different music.no not directly imply innovative music...but that's what I listen to prog for, not for The Flower Kings who reiterate shit from 30 years ago but for stuff like Magma which a completely different genre of music than anything else, and still manages to be spiritual and emotional.
Besides breaking the mold and new shit doesn't always come with good outcomes, that's why I am pointing out.Besides, I'm such a fan of breaking the mold, Bjork's Volta has this weird digital table as an instrument but it doesn't really have me impressed.(stupid argument)
EDIT: not a fan of King Crimson, just dig what I heard, havent heard that song. (you contradicted yourself about math rock, btw)
Tolkien description, I mean if prog where to be a type of book, it'd be a fantasy book. I don't like fantasy book, they expect me to believe that shit.
Did I? I said it was pretty cool but I couldn't really sit through the album. So idk I guess the album just isn't good all the way through. And the KC song is both a song and an album. its '81 or something. whole album is pretty good, if you like math rock you'll like this.
And I would have to agree with the fantasy description. But I wouldn't call it bland. There is some sort of suspension of believe necessary though at times.
Post by: last life on June 30, 2008, 06:16:34 am
Post by: ThugTears666 on June 30, 2008, 08:57:34 am
Post by: Kaworu on June 30, 2008, 09:26:15 am
Also all prog sounds the same.
Gong sounds exactly like Frank Zappa who sounds exactly like pink floyd who sounds exactly like Hatfield and the North who sounds exactly like Magma.
Post by: DarkPriest on June 30, 2008, 01:15:09 pm
what the hell does this mean?
It means that most prog rock bands sound better than most non-prog rock bands. I don't think I need to emphasize it, but IMO anyway.
If we're comparing genres to books, I'd say prog is no specific type of book. The first chapter might be fantasy, but suddenly it turns into a gut-wrenching detective story. But what's this, just as the villain was about to get caught... we're in the middle of an encyclopedia! After a few words have been explained, it goes on and takes the form of an autobiography.
My point being - I love prog because you never know what's gonna happen in the songs. It's full of surprises, twists and (this is the keyword) NOT BORING AND REPETITIVE. Now, I totally agree that prog is pretentious, bloated and at times meandering. That's just a part of the genre just as primitive, raw and simple can be used to describe punk (I'm not saying all punk fits those 3 words just as not all prog is pretentious - but most is). I like pretentious, over-ambitious, cheesy and artistic music, but that's just me.
Now excuse me while I visit the punk topic and loudly declare my distaste for that specific genre. (im not really going to)
Post by: Shepperd on June 30, 2008, 02:18:45 pm
Saying "this sounds stupid, I wont listen to any of it and still judge it" is very retarded.I whole heartly disagree with each sentence of this post. Please reconsider your statements.
Also all prog sounds the same.
Gong sounds exactly like Frank Zappa who sounds exactly like pink floyd who sounds exactly like Hatfield and the North who sounds exactly like Magma.
It means that most prog rock bands sound better than most non-prog rock bands. I don't think I need to emphasize it, but IMO anyway.first, you didn't say imo, you said it as if it were to be a fact.
And I already pointed out I can make a huge list of non-prog bands that are fantastic, so thanks for your omissive attitude.
If we're comparing genres to books, I'd say prog is no specific type of book. The first chapter might be fantasy, but suddenly it turns into a gut-wrenching detective story. But what's this, just as the villain was about to get caught... we're in the middle of an encyclopedia! After a few words have been explained, it goes on and takes the form of an autobiography.give me a break
My point being - I love prog because you never know what's gonna happen in the songs. It's full of surprises, twists and (this is the keyword) NOT BORING AND REPETITIVE.Besides I pointed out there is some prog I like. It is a minority, the rest of what I heard fits those negative descriptions. The excess of twists makes it boring, the excess of weedley weedly wee with the geetar or the keyboard or the flute makes me rather wanna punch the musicians (ON THE FACE), the appeal for virtuosity, the average length, it is a sum of factors that makes prog actually BORING AND REPETITIVE. Ironically punk may have a verse chorus structure sometimes (not always) but it doesnt feel repetitive because it is short. Try to listen to Minutemen and their records sounds like one surprise after the other. But that's just a taste thing, I've been pointing out how the lowest common denominator in prog makes it such a bloated genre.
Now, I totally agree that prog is pretentious, bloated and at times meandering. That's just a part of the genre just as primitive, raw and simple can be used to describe punk (I'm not saying all punk fits those 3 words just as not all prog is pretentious - but most is). I like pretentious, over-ambitious, cheesy and artistic music, but that's just me.
Now excuse me while I visit the punk topic and loudly declare my distaste for that specific genre. (im not really going to)You should.
Post by: Kaworu on June 30, 2008, 02:22:46 pm
Post by: DarkPriest on June 30, 2008, 02:34:16 pm
first, you didn't say imo, you said it as if it were to be a fact
It was - quite obviously - my opinion. First of all, unlike some others in this forum, I don't really consider myself as any kind of an final authority in music. Second, I hope I don't need to add an IMO to the end of my every sentence. If I'm going to post facts, I'm also going to give you links and proof. Not the other way around.
And I already pointed out I can make a huge list of non-prog bands that are fantastic, so thanks for your omissive attitude
And I can make a list of prog bands that are better than any band in your list, what's your point? (also my dad is stronger than yours)
You should.
I'm still not going to.
edit: Oh yeah this is all IMO just to be sure
Post by: thecatamites on June 30, 2008, 02:42:24 pm
I'm still not going to.
You really should! I didn't rant in the prog topic because I didn't feel comfortable shitting up someone else's article, but speaking personally I prefer people to argue and disagree with me about that stuff than just post "haven't heard but good job" or whatever. It's a lot more entertaining, anyway.
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on June 30, 2008, 02:46:04 pm
Post by: Shepperd on June 30, 2008, 03:45:30 pm
It was - quite obviously - my opinion. First of all, unlike some others in this forum, I don't really consider myself as any kind of an final authority in music. Second, I hope I don't need to add an IMO to the end of my every sentence. If I'm going to post facts, I'm also going to give you links and proof. Not the other way around.of course it was an opinion, the way you said it was factual however.
And I can make a list of prog bands that are better than any band in your list, what's your point? (also my dad is stronger than yours)...you came up first with that logic, let me refresh you:
Quote
and still they manage to sound better than most other rock bands out there, whahay!My refutal is basically pointing out how ridiculous this statement is.
I'm still not going to.Sucks. Catamites pretty much explained the essence of what I'm doing.
why should I reconsider it? Frank Zappa sounds exactly like Pink Floyd because they are both prog. frank Zappa also sounds exactly like marillion because they are prog.If you really think that way, man I'm sorry.
Post by: Kaworu on June 30, 2008, 03:53:55 pm
Post by: Shepperd on June 30, 2008, 04:00:27 pm
I was actually mocking you but w/ebut since I don't think that way I don't take it as a mock but rather yourself having a stupid opinion
Post by: Bravo on June 30, 2008, 04:04:13 pm
actually, I'd like to know what you guys think of my articles (aside from, oh great job dude!). Like would you prefer I talk more about the bands' histories? or more about the general sound or my opinion of each band? any crits at all would be great.
You really should! I didn't rant in the prog topic because I didn't feel comfortable shitting up someone else's article, but speaking personally I prefer people to argue and disagree with me about that stuff than just post "haven't heard but good job" or whatever. It's a lot more entertaining, anyway.i dunno if you mean this article but please do, i enjoy discussing music. its like discussing religion, only this matters.
Besides I pointed out there is some prog I like. It is a minority, the rest of what I heard fits those negative descriptions. The excess of twists makes it boring, the excess of weedley weedly wee with the geetar or the keyboard or the flute makes me rather wanna punch the musicians (ON THE FACE), the appeal for virtuosity, the average length, it is a sum of factors that makes prog actually BORING AND REPETITIVE. Ironically punk may have a verse chorus structure sometimes (not always) but it doesnt feel repetitive because it is short. Try to listen to Minutemen and their records sounds like one surprise after the other. But that's just a taste thing, I've been pointing out how the lowest common denominator in prog makes it such a bloated genre.It is all just a taste thing you've discovered the secret to enlightenment. (Just as Kohntarkosz discovered the secret to eternal life.)
All this stuff which makes you find prog boring, I find it awesome for. What I can't stand is the 3 minute pop/punk/rock song that sings about sex or drugs or rock and roll. The basic song structure is just boring to me, and even though (with some exceptions) its a 3 minute song, I get bored halfway through becuase by that point, I feel like I've heard all the song has to offer (aside from another verse in the same melody/key/speed/style as the previous two).
Post by: Kaworu on June 30, 2008, 04:21:16 pm
A. Implied prog all sounds the same (which is what I'm getting at) and
B. Judged music such as zeuhl without listening to it. (which is really stupid)
Anybody with half a braincell can tell the difference between bands such as Magma who are as different from Jethro Tull, Marillion, and such than Miles Davis is different from friggin Aqua. This is like one of the main reasons I am strongly against genres, because people will be like "oh Prog, they must sound like |blah|" or "it's all wankery" without even bothering to listen to the music in question.
Post by: DS on June 30, 2008, 04:34:57 pm
Quote
All this stuff which makes you find prog boring, I find it awesome for. What I can't stand is the 3 minute pop/punk/rock song that sings about sex or drugs or rock and roll. The basic song structure is just boring to me, and even though (with some exceptions) its a 3 minute song, I get bored halfway through becuase by that point, I feel like I've heard all the song has to offer (aside from another verse in the same melody/key/speed/style as the previous two).Because every 3 minute song follow the same formula.
Post by: Bravo on June 30, 2008, 04:38:54 pm
Because every 3 minute song follow the same formula.every non-prog song (zing! or some shit)
intro-verse-chorus-verse-bridge-solo-verse-chorus-outro
Post by: Kaworu on June 30, 2008, 04:46:12 pm
Post by: Shepperd on June 30, 2008, 04:55:00 pm
Shep you'veA: Nope I didnt, and I made clear I don't think that way.
A. Implied prog all sounds the same (which is what I'm getting at) and
B. Judged music such as zeuhl without listening to it. (which is really stupid)
B: But I haven't judged music such as zeuhl. I judged prog rock. It's like you're saying I can't judge punk without first hearing sex pistols, ramones, dead kennedys, the germs, the melvins, new york dolls, the jam, stiff little fingers, etc, because mind you I heard none of these bands yet still know a lot bout punk, know what it sounds like, and such.
Shit I have to rewrite all my music because my three minute songs don't follow that formula :(fuck formulas man, music is not meant to just fit formulas.
If you guys think punk is formulaic, you are way wrong.
In fact I could even say prog is formulaic.
Post by: Bravo on June 30, 2008, 05:09:03 pm
B: But I haven't judged music such as zeuhl. I judged prog rock. It's like you're saying I can't judge punk without first hearing sex pistols, ramones, dead kennedys, the germs, the melvins, new york dolls, the jam, stiff little fingers, etc, because mind you I heard none of these bands yet still know a lot bout punk, know what it sounds like, and such.You haven't judged prog rock though. You've judged a small part of it. Prog is a lot more than idk...Yes and pretentiousness. Prog is also Frank Zappa, Bob Dylan, King Crimson, Kayo Dot, Fantomas. Oh, Zeuhl is prog too.
Shit I have to rewrite all my music because my three minute songs don't follow that formula :(You just might be prog then! Also, i think this entire argument is getting kinda out of hand with all the ppl being sarcastic except for Shepperd who can't pick up on sarcasm (or chooses not to because he's gay)
Post by: Shepperd on June 30, 2008, 05:39:08 pm
King Crimson is prog and I dig.
Fantomas is prog?? More like noise to me.
Haven't heard Bobby D's prog stuff. Unless you suppose most if not all his stuff is prog then I get where you are going but that's not the prog I speak of. (if Bob Dylan's Highway 61 Revisited is prog then John Frusciante (a favourite of mine) is also prog)
I'm not picking up sarcasm because it is off-set. You guys suppose I imply certain things, which I don't. So I laugh em off and not because I'm homo.
Post by: ThugTears666 on June 30, 2008, 09:44:04 pm
I don't really think Shep is doing anything wrong other than generalizing. I don't really like Punk music because it is pretty noisy and I don't think they put alot of thought into their music and I get sick of music which is played by generally sub-par musicians in garage recording studios. Obviously this doesn't mean I assume the whole genre is the same but it is what the genre is known for in my mind. So I will check out bands but on the whole this is the idea I associate with punk just like I associate cheesiness with prog rock. OPINIONS TASTE WHATEVER
Post by: last life on June 30, 2008, 10:25:23 pm
Post by: Bravo on June 30, 2008, 10:33:56 pm
lol also suddenly prog includes Bob Dylan hahahahahahahe went above and beyond the call of duty
and while you can check wiki I wouldn't trust it enough to fully get an idea of what he's done. more like realize that he's more than an average country/folk artist.
BOB DYLAN IS BY NO MEANS PROGRESSIVE ROCK in the traditional sense. but he is prog.
Post by: ThugTears666 on June 30, 2008, 10:45:59 pm
Post by: Shepperd on June 30, 2008, 11:35:01 pm
There are loads of thing that are experimental and not prog. And vice versa.
Post by: ThugTears666 on June 30, 2008, 11:48:20 pm
Also my favorite prog band is probably when Cynic made that demo tape under the name Portal. That was so fucking good.. If you can recommend me anything similar that would be grrreat.
Post by: DarkPriest on July 01, 2008, 06:52:46 am
dp knows fuck all about punk rock though and if there's one argument more tired than PROG MORE LIKE BORING TECH WANKERY it's PUNK IS LOUD.
That's pretty much it, I don't know anything about punk except that I don't like it. Besides, if I were to post "I don't like punk here are 4 long paragraphs why" the post would have zero value to anyone who's into punk. No one will gain anything from me doing that and people will just be annoyed because "heh... HEH... well I DON'T like punk... it's loud and simple heh..." it makes me look like a jackass.
Just like you've shitted this topic up. I first read it hoping to maybe discover some cool new bands, discuss some prog and have a good time. But besides the inital article all I got are 2 pages of replies "prog is not good... heh... i know better,,,, ´heh you're music has no value". It's fucking irritating, you've made it very clear you don't like prog, now go post about proto-punk or something.
Post by: Frankie on July 04, 2008, 11:52:13 pm
How different is their earlier stuff? I think ill try some other albums if I can find them. I like univers Zero, though I heard almost nothing by them. These bands are hard to find...*COUGH*
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on July 05, 2008, 12:27:54 am
That's pretty much it, I don't know anything about punk except that I don't like it. Besides, if I were to post "I don't like punk here are 4 long paragraphs why" the post would have zero value to anyone who's into punk. No one will gain anything from me doing that and people will just be annoyed because "heh... HEH... well I DON'T like punk... it's loud and simple heh..." it makes me look like a jackass.
Just like you've shitted this topic up. I first read it hoping to maybe discover some cool new bands, discuss some prog and have a good time. But besides the inital article all I got are 2 pages of replies "prog is not good... heh... i know better,,,, ´heh you're music has no value". It's fucking irritating, you've made it very clear you don't like prog, now go post about proto-punk or something.
I actually somewhat agree with this. do we really need another PROG=TECH WANKERY argument? like, I'd like to get into a discussion as to why this kind of weird subculture might actually NOT BE GOOD or IS GOOD, but it's impossible to do when everyone does the same thing in both topics. thanks for the unique opinion shep.
LETS HAVE A BLACK METAL DISCUSSION DID YOU KNOW THEY SOUND HARSH.
Post by: Shepperd on July 05, 2008, 12:56:18 am
I actually somewhat agree with this. do we really need another PROG=TECH WANKERY argument? like, I'd like to get into a discussion as to why this kind of weird subculture might actually NOT BE GOOD or IS GOOD, but it's impossible to do when everyone does the same thing in both topics. thanks for the unique opinion shep.it is not my concern whether we need "another PROG=TECH WANKERY argument", I'm going to be straight with what I want to say. I dont nor wont go thinking about the morality or essence or whatsoever of the discussion.
besides, what unique opinion? my opinion is pretty standard, stupid.
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on July 05, 2008, 01:22:31 am
Post by: Shepperd on July 05, 2008, 02:31:37 am
yeah thanks for it again. seriously you've been pulling this shit in multiple topics, I don't know if you've realized this yet but we don't fucking care about your opinion (the UNIQUE part was sarcasm tex) when its the same predictable shit and seriously if there was a No Music Forum group I'd nominate for you.as if I give a fuck whether you care about my opinions or not. I think YOU haven't realised this yet.
and I know how to identify sarcasm NO NEED TO POINT IT OUT SIR.
also, STOP GOING OUT OF TOPIC LMAO
Post by: Bravo on July 24, 2008, 10:57:57 pm
Yeah but according to Bravo's definition prog and experimental are the same thing.I was being a dumbass, experimental and prog aren't the same thing but they aren't separate either ftw.
Also, finally back from long vaca without GW access.........it was nice. Also, Dun is really good, check it out guys. I listened to it more, and its grown on me. Give it at least three listens (close listens). The songs either make sense, or I was fucked up that day.
Post by: Barack Obama on August 25, 2008, 01:30:21 am
Quote
Zeuhl was developed by the band Magma, whose albums are all related in that they chronicle the mythology of the planet Kobaia. This is not important in understanding their music however, as the lyrics are sung in Kobaian, a language created by Christian Vander, drummer, leader, and only constant force behind the band during its existance.fuckin prog
this shit is on par with playing world of warcraft and reading dragonlance novels, way to make rock not rock.
Post by: Puppet Master on August 26, 2008, 06:20:49 pm
Post by: Kaworu on August 26, 2008, 06:39:58 pm
Magma Live is great and I would recommend everyone to check it out, it's more of a jazz/fusion album. Jazz with Kobaian chanting. It's really cool. Likewise a lot of the other groups seem to be more jazz based than rock, Zao and Weidorje essentially being great fusion bands. Much closer to that than Prog, but prog itself is a gay/vague term. Maybe for the genre whores amung you these'd be avant-guard jazz-rock or something. Like I say, hate genres and if you're not trying stuff out because of whatever misconceptions you have due to their genre, you're an idiot.
Post by: last life on August 27, 2008, 07:23:05 am
Post by: Barack Obama on August 27, 2008, 10:32:52 am
I wouldn't exactly call Magma rock, y'know lol genres. I hate em.
Magma Live is great and I would recommend everyone to check it out, it's more of a jazz/fusion album. Jazz with Kobaian chanting. It's really cool. Likewise a lot of the other groups seem to be more jazz based than rock, Zao and Weidorje essentially being great fusion bands. Much closer to that than Prog, but prog itself is a gay/vague term. Maybe for the genre whores amung you these'd be avant-guard jazz-rock or something. Like I say, hate genres and if you're not trying stuff out because of whatever misconceptions you have due to their genre, you're an idiot.
Seriously this is some of the most pretentious and unlistenable crap I've ever heard.
Post by: Bravo on August 28, 2008, 07:23:39 pm
And of course, if something isn't your cup of musical tea, then don't listen to it. Unfortunately, you'll be missing out on some great shit.
Post by: ThugTears666 on August 28, 2008, 07:36:16 pm
and sign up.
Post by: Barack Obama on August 30, 2008, 01:23:17 am
Those were kinda crappy examples, but listen to this:
And of course, if something isn't your cup of musical tea, then don't listen to it. Unfortunately, you'll be missing out on some great shit.
Seriously? I'm not trying to shit on your thread or anything but these guys are intentionally avoiding any kind of coherent melody and the whole made-up language thing is kitschy and kinda leads me to believe that they don't have anything interesting to say to begin with.
Try listening to CAN, you'd probably dig that group. They played more listenable jams(some pretty glaring exceptions though) and their singer was a japanese/german habitual mushrooms user so he had an excuse for not making any sense sometimes.
Post by: Bravo on August 30, 2008, 06:26:34 am
no melody in most cases with magma, i don't mind though.
not a fan of CAN or any of the Krautrock genre, it sounds too much like stoner jamming for my taste.
Post by: Kaworu on September 02, 2008, 10:32:30 am
It's also worth mentioning that Magma are really an album band(their labums tend to sound like one long song broken down into seperate pieces), and while in short 5 minute sections may seem melody-less, the sound really comes together as a whole on the albums, though live they are more energetic and fun. Check out Magma Live, as that is truely their best example of this.
Weidorje and Zao are far more accessable as they're more on the fusion side as they aren't under Vander's strict leadership.