Gaming World Forums
General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: ase on July 23, 2008, 01:29:46 pm
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Believe it or not, the victim this time is a BLACK man (how could this happen????????)
http://www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/22/taser.death/index.html
Hidden content (Click to reveal)Ex-cop may be charged in case of man Tasered to death
* Story Highlights
* Suspect died after police officer Tasered him nine times; investigation launched
* Coroner rules death homicide, says man might've been dead after seventh shock
* Family outraged it has taken months for any action: "The family wants justice"
* Prosecutor is expected to decide soon whether to file charges
From Drew Griffin and David Fitzpatrick
CNN
WINNFIELD, Louisiana (CNN) -- A police officer shocked a handcuffed Baron "Scooter" Pikes nine times with a Taser after arresting him on a cocaine charge.
He stopped twitching after seven, according to a coroner's report. Soon afterward, Pikes was dead.
Now the officer, since fired, could end up facing criminal charges in Pikes' January death after medical examiners ruled it a homicide.
Dr. Randolph Williams, the Winn Parish coroner, told CNN the 21-year-old sawmill worker was jolted so many times by the 50,000-volt Taser that he might have been dead before the last two shocks were delivered.
Williams ruled Pikes' death a homicide in June after extensive study.
Winn Parish District Attorney Christopher Nevils said he will decide on any charges against the ex-officer, Scott Nugent, once a Louisiana State Police report on the case is complete. VideoWatch coroner describe how cop might've Tasered a dead man »
"It's taken several months for this case to even be properly addressed, so one has to wonder, why did it take so long?" said Carol Powell Lexing, a lawyer for the Pikes family. "Obviously, a wrongful death occurred."
Nugent's lawyer, Phillip Terrell, said his client followed proper procedure to subdue a man who outweighed him by 100 pounds. But Williams said Pikes was already handcuffed and on the ground when first hit with the Taser, after the 247-pound suspect was slow to follow police orders to get up.
Winnfield, a sleepy lumber town about 100 miles southeast of Shreveport, Louisiana, is best known as the birthplace of legendary Louisiana governors Huey and Earl Long. It's also about 45 miles northwest of Jena, Louisiana, where a racially charged assault case sparked a September 2007 demonstration by an estimated 15,000 people. VideoWatch racism charges fly after Taser death »
One of the teenage defendants in that case, Mychal Bell, is Pikes' first cousin -- and his lawyer was Powell Lexing.
Nugent is white; Pikes was black. His death led to demonstrations that drew several dozen people in Winnfield, where the population of about 15,000 is roughly half African-American.
"The family wants justice," Lexing said. "This is just another example of why it's very important to stay vigilant with these types of cases, on the injustice that's been perpetrated on the disadvantaged."
But Winnfield police Lt. Chuck Curry said race "isn't an issue at all" in the matter.
"This has come down to a police officer that was trying to apprehend a suspect that they had warrants for," he said. "He done what he thought he was trained to do to bring that subject into custody. At some point, something happened with his body that caused him to go into cardiac arrest or whatever." See how Tasers work »
According to police, Pikes was wanted on a charge of possession of cocaine when police tried to arrest him outside a shopping center January 12.
"He would not stop for the officer," Curry said. "At some point in there, he was Tased to bring him under control, and several hours later, died at the emergency room."
Terrell said Pikes was fighting Nugent "on uneven ground" amid obstructions such as concrete blocks and barbed wire.
"He's fighting, wrestling with an individual who weighs 100 pounds more than him," he said. "His partner had just come back to the police department from triple bypass surgery and could not assist Officer Nugent."
Terrell said his client "used every means possible" to take Pikes into custody before pulling out his Taser, a weapon Winnfield police purchased in 2007.
"The only thing he could have done other than to say, 'OK, we're going to let you go' is to beat him or Tase him. He did the right thing," Terrell said.
Williams, who ruled Pikes' death a homicide in June after extensive study, said Nugent fired his Taser at Pikes six times in less than three minutes -- shots recorded by a computer chip in the weapon's handle. Then officers put Pikes in the back of a cruiser and drove him to their police station -- where Nugent fired a seventh shot, directly against Pikes' chest.
"After he was given that drive stun to the chest, he was pulled out of the car onto the concrete, " Williams told CNN. "He was electroshocked two more times, which two officers noted that he had no neuromuscular response to those last two 50,000-volt electroshocks."
Williams said he had two nationally known forensic pathologists, including former New York city medical examiner Michael Baden, review the case before issuing his conclusions. He said it's possible Nugent was shocking a dead man the last two times he pulled the trigger.
"This fellow was talking in the back seat of the car prior to shot number seven," he said. "From that point on, it becomes questionable [if Pikes was still alive]."
Curry said Pikes told officers he suffered from asthma and had been using PCP and crack cocaine. But Williams said he found no sign of drug use in the autopsy, and no record of asthma in Pikes' medical history.
In the year since Winnfield police received Tasers, officers have used them 14 times, according to police records -- with 12 of the instances involving black suspects. Ten of the 14 incidents involved Nugent, who has no public disciplinary record.
Nugent was suspended after Pikes' death, and Winnfield's City Council voted 3-2 to fire him in May. He is appealing his dismissal, and his lawyer says he followed proper procedures in Pikes' case. He was trained in the use of the Taser by a senior police officer who was present during the incident that led to Pikes' death, Terrell said.
Curry said Taser International, the device's manufacturer, indicates that "multiple Tasings do not affect a person." But he said he could not explain why Pikes was shocked so many times, and said whether Nugent followed proper procedure was "yet to be determined."
But a copy of the Winnfield Police Department's Taser training manual, obtained by CNN, says the device "shall only be deployed in circumstances where it is deemed reasonably necessary to control a dangerous or violent subject." And Williams said regulations regarding the use of Tasers were not followed.
"It violated every aspect -- every single aspect -- of the department's policy about its use," the coroner said.
Winnfield has seen a spate of high-profile corruption cases in recent years. One of Nevils' predecessors as district attorney, Terry Reeves, killed himself amid allegations of embezzlement and extortion. The town's current police chief, Johnny Ray Carpenter, is a convicted drug offender who received a pardon from former Louisiana Gov. Edwin Edwards who himself is now serving a federal prison term for racketeering.
And Carpenter's predecessor, Gleason Nugent -- the father of Pikes' arresting officer -- committed suicide in 2005, after allegations of fraud and vote buying in the race for police chief, an elected position in Winnfield.
Now Nevils is awaiting the state police report on Pikes' death, which will be presented to a grand jury for possible charges against Nugent -- a possibility Curry said would be a blow to the department.
"It's one of these no-win situations," he said. "No matter the outcome, nobody's going to win in this case."
[blockquote] Williams, who ruled Pikes' death a homicide in June after extensive study, said Nugent fired his Taser at Pikes six times in less than three minutes -- shots recorded by a computer chip in the weapon's handle. Then officers put Pikes in the back of a cruiser and drove him to their police station -- where Nugent fired a seventh shot, directly against Pikes' chest.
"After he was given that drive stun to the chest, he was pulled out of the car onto the concrete, " Williams told CNN. "He was electroshocked two more times, which two officers noted that he had no neuromuscular response to those last two 50,000-volt electroshocks."
Williams said he had two nationally known forensic pathologists, including former New York city medical examiner Michael Baden, review the case before issuing his conclusions. He said it's possible Nugent was shocking a dead man the last two times he pulled the trigger.[/blockquote]
I don't know what kind of training these police officers receive in "proper taser handling" but it definitely isn't sufficient (assuming tasers are even necessary in the first place). What kind of justification is there in tasing someone 9 times? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that anyone who has been shot 6 times (or once) with this thing is not going to do anything to provoke a consequent tase.
I guess he's just the unruly black guy exception lol
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LOUISIANA
this is disgusting, how are people defending this guy. he's like one of those electroshock fetish sadists or something
seriously DOING WHAT HE WAS SUPPOSED TO is such bullshit. I dunno what to say, I just I hope the guy gets ruled guilty of homicide.
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"He done what he thought he was trained to do to bring that subject into custody. At some point, something happened with his body that caused him to go into cardiac arrest or whatever."
I love how the police chief sort of implies that it's the victim's fault for dying. STUPID NIGGAR SHOULD HAVE HANDLED THE SHOCK BETTER.
But yeah, seven times with a taser definitely seems like excessive force to me. It sucks that these rednecks keep buying them to make their job easier and end up turning their potential prisoners into dead men right there on the street.
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Noticed this in the comments:
Great article, but you failed to mention a couple of things.
The arresting officer, Nugent, was the precincts most aggressive Taser user, based on records showing that Nugent used the Taser more than any other officer in that force.
Also, Nugent tried to explain the death by saying that Pikes told Nugent that Pikes was high on PCP and crack cocaine and also had asthma. When the coroner reported his findings, he found no drugs in Pikes system and also reported that Pikes did not have asthma.
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I thought this was about the taser death in Winnipeg today... Link (http://www.canada.com/theprovince/news/story.html?id=544afe58-3414-4b94-bd90-b94e516957c9)
...but the one in this thread is much more interesting.
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can tasers cause sterility
Thus is fucked up. Maybe tasers should be made a little more NONLETHAL?
Maybe...... maybe cops should just learn not to go trigger happy with a fucking Thor-in-a-pocket.
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"The only thing he could have done other than to say, 'OK, we're going to let you go' is to beat him or Tase him. He did the right thing," Terrell said.
what the fuck
is this lawyer being deliberately stupid in the hopes nobody will notice or something because he has no defense?
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i beat the shit out of people because they leave me no choice either what is your point mister bibelbasher
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Man Louisiana is a terrible place :(
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I'm pretty sure a taser is meant to bring someone down after ONE SHOCK if so what that cop committed was fucking murder and not any sort of accident.
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Yeah the taser is usually supposed to be a once and done deal, although maybe twice or three times is within reason, but this is definitely not within reason
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One of the fundamental properties of weapons is that they will be abused. That's why we need to keep our weapon usage to a minimum. Why do the police have these deadly things, anyway? The rest of the world seems to be doing just fine without them.
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These deaths are becoming more and more publicized after that somewhat recent video of the man being tasered to death in an airport... people are now only realizing that electric shock can be harmful??
Tasers are mean to subdue... not to send a warning. People should be thinking more when they are looking at a response to any unruly behaviour. No more shoot first ask questions later routine... some people have ticks that they can't control like tourettes; can you honestly be sure when they seem unruly that they are not just medically unable to respond correctly because thier brain sends different pulses than yours would?
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I think I recall reading in another article about this that the last two of the tazings were administered after the victim had fallen unconscious on the ground.
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I think I recall reading in another article about this that the last two of the tazings were administered after the victim had fallen unconscious on the ground.
yeah that's in this one too, they said he was PROBABLY DEAD by this point. at least the last three were after he was already handcuffed. he tased him inside the police cruiser and then apparently DRAGGED him out of the cruiser just to tase him twice more. there is no explanation for this!
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man every time i see this BLACK GUY KILLED BY WHITE COPS (presumably for being too black) i get filled with this righteous anger and think i hate cops, but really i guess i just hate sleazy southern white cops! this is pretty disgusting and that sounds really hollow to me because everyone always says it, but i really don't know how to articulate myself besides saying i am disgusted.
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ahaha man this article is just priceless
"Nugent's lawyer, Phillip Terrell, said his client followed proper procedure to subdue a man who outweighed him by 100 pounds. But Williams said Pikes was already handcuffed and on the ground when first hit with the Taser, after the 247-pound suspect was slow to follow police orders to get up.
really??? i didn't know it was proper procedure to subdue/cuff suspects and then TASER THEM TO DEATH when they are no threat whatsoever. there's just like literally no reason to taser someone who has already been cuffed more than maybe once if he is just resisting way too much to handle still, but man i don't even think you CAN resist after being tasered like 2-3 times, so those other six shots are just like what the fuck. fkjdfkdj fucking cops.
also this:
But Winnfield police Lt. Chuck Curry said race "isn't an issue at all" in the matter.
"This has come down to a police officer that was trying to apprehend a suspect that they had warrants for," he said. "He done what he thought he was trained to do to bring that subject into custody. At some point, something happened with his body that caused him to go into cardiac arrest or whatever."
jesus christ i don't know whether to laugh or yell at my monitor. i guess they all think they are trained to kill black dudes, and even though i am joking i sort of suspect they probably do feel that CLOBBER ALL JAMALS is an unspoken part of their duty. i love how he just says that AT SOME POINT SOMETHING HAPPENED WITH HIS BODY like it could have been anything other than being tasered nine times. man this kind of shit makes me want to hit someone.
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yeah part of what makes me so angry is that this cop probably wont feel much remorse because every white trash redneck will tell him good job.
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i don't even think you CAN resist after being tasered like 2-3 times, so those other six shots are just like what the fuck. fkjdfkdj fucking cops.
I bet the guy was having a seizure or something and they were like, "W..WE GOTTA STOP EM FROM MOVIN TZZZZZZSSTT!"
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Have they given every fucking slackjawed american cop TASERS now?
"'non-leathal????' sounds like a wager to me"
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This really bothers me. I really wish they would put a cool-down time on tasers. This is fucking ridiculous. I could understand tasing the guy a FEW times if he wasn't going down and was like going crazy bumrushing everyone... But what the hell. He was in custody... How can that cop SLEEP at night?
--Terin
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According to an article on Tasers I read some time ago, it seems that they are the weapons that are most unlikely to cause a death. Think about it, if the cop used a gun instead, one well placed bullet would have killed the guy. A club would also be something barbaric, not guaranteeing an upper hand for the cop. The taser is a more subtle weapon, which will 100% paralyze the target. It remains a weapon however and its abuse should be prohibited. Maybe they should put a mechanism where it stops after 3 or 4 electroshocks. I'm pretty sure that however resistant the "enemy" is he should be unable to put up a fight against a trained cop after receiving all those volts...
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Maybe they should put a mechanism where it stops after 3 or 4 electroshocks.
This is an excellent idea, something like a built in timer + counter, so if the counter goes to 3 or something, the timer activates to like an hour or something, and its unusable till then.
But like THATS gonna happen :\
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well this is a shitty response to this topic and I think this has been addressed but I just need to reiterate
THATS LOUISIANA FOR YOU
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Why install a cooldown on the taser? Why not TRAIN THE PEOPLE USING THEM TO NOT KILL PEOPLE WITH THEM?
This isn't an issue of omg taser this is an issue of some stupid cop (maybe or maybe not a redneck you racists) killing some guy. If he had shot the guy to death the questions would all be the same: was it justifiable? was the guy still a threat? murder or protocol?
If you punch somebody in the face once, it will hurt them. If you punch them in the face twenty times while they lay their defenseless, you'll do major damage. The same is true of a taser, only to a much greater degree. This is simply a question of some asshole not using any kind of judgement whatsoever other than "yipes gotta get this guy!" (for whatever reason). The fact is that they had documented proof that this guy was already using his taser way too much and they should have stepped in before he used it to kill someone.
"Come on guys he done what he thought was right and something happened or whatever I don't really know they don't teach us how to use these thar things when they gone and done give 'em to us."
This is what happens when you give stupid people any kind of power: it gets abused. In the right hands a taser is a good thing because it protects police officers (f*ck da police) and lets them take down highly belligerent suspects. In the wrong hands it's just another weapon, just like a club or a gun or mace or a KITCHEN KNIFE for Christ's sake.
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dude, he was in the police car, and he PULLED HIM OUT to tazer him more. that makes no sense.
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Why install a cooldown on the taser? Why not TRAIN THE PEOPLE USING THEM TO NOT KILL PEOPLE WITH THEM?
because you CAN'T. No matter what you do, cockheads like this will ALWAYS be around. So yeah.
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Did anyone else notice this?
[blockquote]"He would not stop for the officer," Curry said. "At some point in there, he was Tased to bring him under control, and several hours later, died at the emergency room."[/blockquote]
The coroner states that "he had no neuromuscular response to those last two 50,000-volt electroshocks," and that "From that point on, it becomes questionable [if ][/if]."
Lt. Curry is a lying fucker who is pulling shit out of his ass to SAVE his ass.
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dude, he was in the police car, and he PULLED HIM OUT to tazer him more. that makes no sense.
Yeah obviously the guy was a stupid asshole and also most probably a murderer! But the weapon isn't at fault, the guy is.
because you CAN'T. No matter what you do, cockheads like this will ALWAYS be around. So yeah.
Yeah, obviously. But limiting its use might screw people who aren't cockheads who might need to use them more than 3 times on a group of suspects or something (I don't know I am a not a crimes doctor).
We should be endeavouring to weed out the cockheads (the problem) and not be blaming a tool because it was used improperly by those said cockheads (the symptom).
edit: ASE, wasn't Lt. Curry the guy who was defending the cop who actually killed him?
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i mean, that's the least of what i noticed, ase. it's a given they're all trying to cover their own asses; one of the few ways this type of shit is guaranteed to have serious repercussions for them is when it makes its rounds through the old reliable media circuit and people start WANTING BLOOD etc. of course they're going to try to make it seem like something happened and he died through no fault of their own under so much national scrutiny! they have to realize after seeing all that JENA SIX shit like less than a year ago (and apparently like 20 miles away) that they probably won't get off free on this shit like they usually do if it becomes an object of attention for everyone who watches cnn or whatever and come off as a bunch of racist pigs, so honestly it's not too surprising at all that they're trying to play it off like it's nothing out of the ordinary or shady at all. just arrested a druggie and he had a heart attack or overdosed or something and died a few hours later in the hospital thats all hehe ^^
Why install a cooldown on the taser? Why not TRAIN THE PEOPLE USING THEM TO NOT KILL PEOPLE WITH THEM?
yes kaempfer clearly this is just a case of poor training and all of the officers on the scene, one of which was actually in charge of training other officers how to use the tasers, simply didn't realize that they couldn't taser someone nine times without killing them. he pulled a barely conscious and totally subdued (i don't think it's possible to be anything else after being hit with a taser six times) man out of the back of his squad car at the station and shot him directly in the chest with a taser. do you seriously think OH UH I DIDNT KNOW I COULDNT DO THAT OOPS LOL is a plausible excuse? it was clearly intentional, man, and better training won't do anything if that's the case. where in this topic are people blaming the weapon? i'm pretty sure everyone's blaming the racist scumbag cop!
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Yeah it was clearly intentional, sorry I didn't mean it was just a lack of training (I was actually thinking of that Polish guy who was killed in Toronto but made no mention of him so that was probably confusing).
I am not defending this guy at all! I think he is pretty obvious a murderer who used the taser to kill a guy, but I am just saying he is using the taser as a crutch and it wasn't the taser's fault! I think it is a pretty good thing to give cops, is all.
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Did anyone else notice this?
[blockquote]"He would not stop for the officer," Curry said. "At some point in there, he was Tased to bring him under control, and several hours later, died at the emergency room."[/blockquote]
The coroner states that "he had no neuromuscular response to those last two 50,000-volt electroshocks," and that "From that point on, it becomes questionable [if Pikes was still alive]."
Lt. Curry is a lying fucker who is pulling shit out of his ass to SAVE his ass.
when i was reading the article, i was thinking "well thats fucked up but at least this pig will go to court and the govt isnt doing any coverup shit like they did in canada"
but then i read that shit :-(
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GUNSKILL BAN ETHEM
The man is guilty of murder and the thought that people who do this sort of thung are set free makes me want to headbutt a wall. Or a cop.
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I think we should organize a group of white guys who will volunteer to go out into public and get tased in remembrance of our fallen brothas. I bet we'd all make it out alive, guys.
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Maybe...... maybe cops should just learn not to go trigger happy with a fucking Thor-in-a-pocket.
Man, if people actually refered to tasers as a Thor-in-a-pocket that would be the greatest thing ever.
...this particular story sucks though.....
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Why install a cooldown on the taser? Why not TRAIN THE PEOPLE USING THEM TO NOT KILL PEOPLE WITH THEM?
Because, and I'll reiterate, every weapon inevitably ends up being misused. They should be banned, period.
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Tasors only have to be used once, other means like billy clubs require beatings. And i'd rather rookies and assholes abuse tasors then something like pepper spray (as much), or use guns in there stead. It's also not just the voltage that kills, it's the strength of the current too.
Plus the tasor has to hit the chest area to be lethal, cause it's close enough to possibly stop the heart.
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Tasors only have to be used once, other means like billy clubs require beatings. And i'd rather rookies and assholes abuse tasors then something like pepper spray (as much), or use guns in there stead. It's also not just the voltage that kills, it's the strength of the current too.
Plus the tasor has to hit the chest area to be lethal, cause it's close enough to possibly stop the heart.
How did you misspell taser when it appears at least fifty times in this thread?
They only would only ever aim for the chest or stomach (or perhaps the thigh) when tasering someone; they're not going to try to tase their index finger as they flail it around wildly.
Because, and I'll reiterate, every weapon inevitably ends up being misused. They should be banned, period.
I don't know if you're suggesting banning weapons or something, but if not then what would you suggest the police replace tasers with? Tasers are controllable and not very effective for committing crimes, and so criminals will never (probably) favour them over other weapons. This means that tasers aren't a weapon that escalates weapons use like guns are- more tasers for police doesn't mean more taser violence on the streets. Perhaps there will be some rise, but knives and guns will still dominate the criminal's arsenal.
Banning a weapon has never been proven to be an effective deterrent to its use anyways. If not tasers, then something else. The cops who want to abuse their weapons are going to, regardless of whether it is a taser or that sickstick thing in that Tom Cruise movie about the future. A much more effective course would be set up carefully tailored guidelines and regulations specific to the use of tasers for police and civilians and make sure everyone who owns one is bombarded with that information. This would, at least, lead to police and civilians who abuse the taser and use it as a lethal weapon being punished for their crimes rather than being able to escape through a quagmire of indecision and red tape.
I don't really believe their is such a thing as a non-lethal weapon, but there are varying degrees of lethality. Until criminals stop using weapons (never) we should continue arming our police with the tools they need to fight crime. However, with every weapon we give them we should ensure that they understand that any weapon used should be used sparingly and as a last resort, and we should ensure that they understand their will be consequences for doing so.
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really 6 times though, how many times was that dude on jackass tasered?
http://rawstory.com//news/2008/Missouri_Police_taser_injured_boy_19_0726.html
look at this kid, jumped off a bridge, broke his back and his ankle, tazered 19 times and still kickin'.
maybe the guy just didn't deal with torture well, it's his fault for not being able to withstand police brutality
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I don't know if you're suggesting banning weapons or something
Yes.
Banning a weapon has never been proven to be an effective deterrent to its use anyways.
Ah, so that's why there's an utterly negligible amount of handgun deaths in the Netherlands?
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Yes.Ah, so that's why there's an utterly negligible amount of handgun deaths in the Netherlands?
You have to consider other things like crime-rate and such too, not just deaths by weapon.
Weapons should be controlled federally IMO. I don't see a reason to own them unless you can prove to the government you can use them responsibly.
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Yes I agree.
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Ah, so that's why there's an utterly negligible amount of handgun deaths in the Netherlands?
Wow. Wow! For how many years were guns banned in the UK? Even the police didn't carry guns. Now they do. Why? Because while it might slow the trend, banning a weapon doesn't keep it out of the hands who are breaking the law anyways (the criminals).
If you are going to commit a deadly crime, would you really care if it were against the law for you to purchase a gun on the street? No, of course not!
I have always thought you were an international man of mystery Dada but if you are really directly correlating ban all weapons in the world to crime rate will drop to Dutch levels then I really don't know.
There are hundreds of millions of guns in the US; making them illegal isn't going to do anything. Look at how well prohibition worked, or how well the war on drugs is going. Banning something doesn't make the problem go away, it just makes the problem harder to control because there are no regulations or degrees of control, it just brings to a black and white level which measures minor offenders with the same stick they use for major offenders.
Most firearm murders (not deaths, murders*) in the US are perpetrated using illegal purchased weapons already. It is illegal to carry a concealable firearm, but lots of criminals still do it. Banning a weapon (or a substance) just makes it harder to monitor and gives rise to black market trading, which is the exact opposite of what we want.
Right now, the police can fight even violent offenders with tasers without killing them, and a few bad apples (like the officer in the story) shouldn't ruin it for every law enforcement agency in the world.
*I agree banning weapons would lower the accidental death rate, but so would proper training. Carelessness behind the wheel of a car kills plenty of people each year. We can't ban everything that is dangerous because of a few stupid people, is pretty much what I am saying!
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He is making incoherent statements; he's also making statements such as, 'Shoot cops, kill cops,' things like that. So there was cause for concern to the officers."
ahaha. he had a broken back and foot from falling off a 30ft bridge and they tasered him 19 times because he said "kill cops" and was therefore dangerous.
fucking people.
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Wow. Wow! For how many years were guns banned in the UK? Even the police didn't carry guns. Now they do. Why? Because while it might slow the trend, banning a weapon doesn't keep it out of the hands who are breaking the law anyways (the criminals).
hey kaempfer guess what many many many gun-related deaths aren't actually murders it turns out!!! as in not everyone who is going to hurt someone with a weapon is a criminal, so the argument "yeah well criminals will get them anyway" is actually kinda dumb
also criminals get guns so easily because there's a fucking ton of them and they get stolen and then they're out on the streets. if they didn't MAKE MILLIONS OF GUNS then there wouldn't be nearly as steady a stream of them flowing into the hands of black market people. if guns were outlawed//out of production//not really owned by very many people because they were illegal, where would the AVERAGE STREET THUG get one? the guy he bought it from probably just bought it from someone else who stole it from someone who actually bought it legitimately, which means that if that first guy can't do that, there's no guns to steal/sell to criminals! like you could get them from like serious ARMS DEALERS i guess but a) those are kind of difficult for the average criminal to access, and b) the rarity/difficulty in obtaining one would make the price of just regular handguns skyrocket, and copious amounts of money is also something the average criminal doesn't typically have access to!
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Easy if legal manufacturers stop (hah!!!), then the Black Market will quickly fill the gap. You under estimate a well organized group of criminals's productivity.
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to mass produce millions of professional grade guns? no i don't think i am! the materials alone would be a fortune AAAAND unlike a meth lab or some shit which you can have it in a lot of places, you sort of need a pretty specific and large factory to produce guns. you could just do it overseas or something and that would work fine but again it's a lot more expensive an investment than producing drugs, and you still have to worry about how you're going to get them across the border. not to say that getting them across the border would be impossible, but it WOULD be pretty difficult and severely limit who could get a gun, and who could afford one, i am thinking. it's not like foreign manufacturers would stop making them and domestic ones would probably RELOCATE OVERSEAS or something but i still think having to smuggle them in illegally would probably make them a lot less plentiful.
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hey kaempfer guess what many many many gun-related deaths aren't actually murders it turns out!!! as in not everyone who is going to hurt someone with a weapon is a criminal, so the argument "yeah well criminals will get them anyway" is actually kinda dumb
Most firearm murders (not deaths, murders*)...
*I agree banning weapons would lower the accidental death rate, but so would proper training. Carelessness behind the wheel of a car kills plenty of people each year. We can't ban everything that is dangerous because of a few stupid people, is pretty much what I am saying!
Hey what exactly was the point of saying that my argument is dumb when I was clearly talking about the murders and not the accidental deaths which I pointed out in the same post!
And OK, they ban the production of weapons in the WORLD. There are still hundreds of millions of them floating around! It would take decades and decades and billions and billions of dollars in law enforcement to clean up the guns that already exist, assuming it is even possible! Which it probably isn't! And while I agree it's a noble cause, it's also a pretty ridiculous goal consider how many people LOVE DEM GUNS.
If tomorrow all guns on the planet disappeared the world would be a better place, but until you convince the tens of millions of Americans (and other less well known gun-lovers) who have a hard on for their right to bear arms to stop buying them and convince nations to stop fighting each other (thus putting the multi-trillion dollar small arms trade out of business) then I really don't think it's going to happen.
There is even a topic right next to this one about militias and shit in the USA, what do you think they'd do if the federal government suddenly banned weapons? There'd be a fucking armed revolt.
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You can easily
injurekill yourself with a mere .5 amperes, especially if the current flows straight through the chest cavity (the heart).
where Nugent fired a seventh shot, directly against Pikes' chest.
Deathblow. Kid who was tasered 19 times, I bet not through the chest.
Also, what the fuck?
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16 year old tazed 19 times except he has a broken back and a broken heel.
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Website for more information.
http://www.allaboutcircuits.com/vol_1/chpt_3/4.html
When you wear a gold ring, the resistance of your hand in ohms drops to about 1000. 20 volts could induce a current of .20 amperes.
Notice that in this condition, 20 volts is enough to produce a current of 20 milliamps through a person: enough to induce tetanus. Remember, it has been suggested a current of only 17 milliamps may induce ventricular (heart) fibrillation
This is pretty deadly. Taser guns can pulse THOUSANDS of volts into your body, and though the current may not be sustained over long periods of time (because taser guns generally pulse the electricity), this is still very, very deadly.
Also, when you factor in the fact that black people generally wear all dat bling bling... well, it's easy to see that the taser gun is whitey's new nightstick. Whitey's denigratin' the black man agin!
I was kidding.
Please don't eat me, black people of GW.
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Hey what exactly was the point of saying that my argument is dumb when I was clearly talking about the murders and not the accidental deaths which I pointed out in the same post!
And OK, they ban the production of weapons in the WORLD. There are still hundreds of millions of them floating around! It would take decades and decades and billions and billions of dollars in law enforcement to clean up the guns that already exist, assuming it is even possible! Which it probably isn't! And while I agree it's a noble cause, it's also a pretty ridiculous goal consider how many people LOVE DEM GUNS.
If tomorrow all guns on the planet disappeared the world would be a better place, but until you convince the tens of millions of Americans (and other less well known gun-lovers) who have a hard on for their right to bear arms to stop buying them and convince nations to stop fighting each other (thus putting the multi-trillion dollar small arms trade out of business) then I really don't think it's going to happen.
There is even a topic right next to this one about militias and shit in the USA, what do you think they'd do if the federal government suddenly banned weapons? There'd be a fucking armed revolt.
sorry, your posted started out kind of ridiculous and you are you, so i assumed it would stay ridiculous!
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thats a pretty white box you got there dok
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I hope weapons are never banned I need my gun's to feel safe.
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I have always thought you were an international man of mystery Dada but if you are really directly correlating ban all weapons in the world to crime rate will drop to Dutch levels then I really don't know.
It's the culture that needs to change, Kaempfer. It's true that just banning guns isn't going to make the required difference, but there has to be some roadmap that ends with a full and unconditional ban of all firearms. The arguments that people say in favor of firearm possession are usually true only in today's context; such as that it will give criminals an advantage. In reality, many criminals don't own firearms either in those countries where there is no gun culture.
Easy if legal manufacturers stop (hah!!!), then the Black Market will quickly fill the gap. You under estimate a well organized group of criminals's productivity.
Of course it will always be possible to buy a gun. The thing is that it's quite a bit more expensive in countries where they're banned, which makes it impractical for a large group of criminals to get one. You can't just set up a factory in someone's basement and importing them from, say, Turkey, is difficult and costly.
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*I agree banning weapons would lower the accidental death rate, but so would proper training. Carelessness behind the wheel of a car kills plenty of people each year. We can't ban everything that is dangerous because of a few stupid people, is pretty much what I am saying!
By the way, this is why we consider some things to have "unnecessary risks". Guns carry unnecessary risks, since guns come with a culture in which people can very easily get killed. Cars don't. Marijuana is legal because it isn't very harmful or addictive and those who use it don't turn more dangerous or annoying than they normally are. Cocaine, on the other hand, is very addictive and hazardous to the body, which means it's very difficult, if not impossible, to "use it normally".
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while i'm down with banning guns and weapons in general in today's culture it would require a worldwide ban to really accomplish anything at all. situations such as sudan where china is exporting weapons to supply a genocide do occur you know!!
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sorry, your posted started out kind of ridiculous and you are you, so i assumed it would stay ridiculous!
Please don't assume this I am trying really hard to not be ridiculous :*(
It's the culture that needs to change, Kaempfer. It's true that just banning guns isn't going to make the required difference, but there has to be some roadmap that ends with a full and unconditional ban of all firearms. The arguments that people say in favor of firearm possession are usually true only in today's context; such as that it will give criminals an advantage. In reality, many criminals don't own firearms either in those countries where there is no gun culture.
Of course it will always be possible to buy a gun. The thing is that it's quite a bit more expensive in countries where they're banned, which makes it impractical for a large group of criminals to get one. You can't just set up a factory in someone's basement and importing them from, say, Turkey, is difficult and costly.
I agree that the culture needs to change, but in certain places (like the US) there have to be a great number of intermediate steps before gun bans can be put in place. People in the US grumble about the fact that there is an automatic weapons ban; what the hell could the average civilian need an automatic weapon for?
What I am saying is that many places that put flat-out bans on things view the situation in entirely a black and white manner, and that is far worse than proper regulation. Look at the US' stance on marijuana (which is illegal there)- possession can land you the same sentence as possession of much harder, much worse drugs (like heroine). This is because there is no framework for specific punishment, which leads to a culture of crime; petty criminals become major criminals in the eyes of the law and, in turn, start to become major criminals in truth.
I don't smoke druges but I am super-pro-legalizations of marijuana in Canada granted it had similar restrictions as alcohol. Not only would it pretty much eliminate 60% of the "drug dealers" in the major cities, but it'd also keep a huge number of people out of jail. I don't want to go into this too much because this isn't what the topic is about but...
The correlation I am making here is that if you ban something, then it becomes a criminal activity. In a place where guns are very much a part of culture, you have to set up reasonable government controls that will make people more likely to come forward about gun crime, because they will be less worried about being thrown in jail for owning a gun. If the word "gun" becomes associated with "crime" in a place like the US, then just knowing someone who owns a gun is going to alienate you from the police, which is very bad.
And yeah, obviously guns are more dangerous than cars, but there need to be easy to access programs for proper care of the firearms that are legally owned already. It would be nice to say all guns are banishe!! but there need to be a huge number of radically progressive steps before you can start to get guns off the streets, never mind out of the hands of global arms dealers.
Also interesting: there are a tonne of guns in Canada but out gun murder rate is like 1/1000th that of the USA per capita!
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thats a pretty white box you got there dok
Whoops
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Yeah Canada's problem isn't gun violence, it's human trafficking and drug trafficking. It is legal to carry side-arms that is Government issued and you have a permit in Canada but then it varries from province to province. It also depends if you live in a rural area or not too.
I agree with Keampfer with pretty much all of what he said. Why would a civilian need an automatic? You don't need full automatics unless your planning something.
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Whoops
yeah i linked to this earlier. fell feet first off a bridge and busted his ankle and back landing on his feet he fell he didn't jump.