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General Category => Entertainment and Media => Topic started by: Alec on August 17, 2008, 02:24:57 am

Title: Nomic
Post by: Alec on August 17, 2008, 02:24:57 am

EDIT: This thread is no longer about SMS games this thread is about Nomic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic). Basically I'm seeing if I were to set up a nomic site if anyone would be interested in playing. so I don't waste my time:

Quote from: wikipedia

Rules are divided up into two types: mutable and immutable. The main difference between these is that immutable rules must be changed into mutable rules (called transmuting) before they can be modified or removed. Immutable rules also take precedence over mutable ones. A rule change may be:

    * the addition of a new mutable rule
    * an amendment to a mutable rule
    * the repeal of a mutable rule
    * the transmutation of a rule from mutable to immutable
    * or the transmutation of a rule from immutable to mutable

The Rules:
There are a few different rulesets that we could choose from, the original has more to do with live play so I don't think it's a good idea:

original ruleset (Click to reveal)

Initial Set of Rules

Immutable Rules

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).

*

102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

*

103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

*

104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

*

105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes.

*

106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.

*

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

*

108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.

*

109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

*

110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

*

111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.

*

112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

*

113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

*

114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.

*

115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

*

116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

*

Mutable Rules

201. Players shall alternate in clockwise order, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.

In mail and computer games, players shall alternate in alphabetical order by surname.

*

202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.

In mail and computer games, instead of throwing a die, players subtract 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiply the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)

*

203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.

*

204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.

*

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

*

206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.

*

207. Each player always has exactly one vote.

*

208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.

In mail and computer games, the winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.

*

209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.

*

210. Players may not conspire or consult on the making of future rule-changes unless they are team-mates.

The first paragraph of this rule does not apply to games by mail or computer.

*

211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

*

212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.

When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.

The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.

Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

*

213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.

The Agora Ruleset was designed more for internet play:

agora (Click to reveal)

'Immutable Rules'

'101.' All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect at the beginning of the first game. The Initial Set consists of rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-219 (mutable).

'102.' Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

'103.' At any time, each player shall be either a Voter or the Speaker; no player may simultaneously be a Voter and a Speaker. At any time there shall be exactly one Speaker. The term "player" in the rules shall specifically include both the Voters and the Speaker.

'104.' The Speaker for the first game shall be --

'105.' A rule change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; or (2) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

'106.' All rule changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes and quorum is achieved.

'107.' Any proposed rule change must be written down (or otherwise communicated in print media) before it is voted on. If adopted, it must guide play in the form in which it was voted on.

'108.' No rule change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule change may have retroactive application.

'109.' The Speaker shall give each proposed rule change a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it.

'110.' Rule changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among votes legally cast. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

'111.' In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

'112.' The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

'113.' A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

'114.' There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule changes must never become completely inpermissible.

'115.' Rule changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule changes are as permissible as other rule changes. Even rule changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

'116.' Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

Mutable rules

'201.' Quorum for a proposed rule change is defined to be 20% of Voters at the beginning of the prescribed voting period for that proposal

'202.' All players begin with 0 points. Points may not be gained, lost, or traded except as explicitly stated in the rules.

'203.' The winner is the first Voter to achieve 100 (positive) points. If more than one Voter achieves this condition simultaneously, all such Voters win.

When a game ends in this manner

        * If there is only one winner, that Voter becomes the Speaker, and the old Speaker becomes a Voter
        * If there is more than one winner, the Speaker randomly selects one of the winners, who becomes the new Speaker, and the old Speaker becomes a Voter.
        * All players' scores are reset to 0.
        * A new game is begun. All rules and proposed rule changes retain the status they had at the end of the old game.

'204.' A proposal shall be made by submitting it to the Speaker. Only Voters may make proposals. As soon as possible after receiving a proposal, the Speaker shall assign the proposal a number and distribute the proposal along with its number to all players

'205.' The prescribed voting period for a proposal shall be one week, beginning at the time the Speaker distributes the proposal to all players.

'206.' Each Voter has exactly one vote. The Speaker may not vote.

'207.' Voters may vote either for or against any proposal within its prescribed voting period. In order to be legally cast, the vote must be received by the Speaker by the end of the prescribed voting period. The Speaker may not reveal any votes until the end of the prescribed voting period. Any Voter who does not legally vote within the prescribed voting period shall be deemed to have abstained.

'208.' At the end of the prescribed voting period on a proposal, the Speaker shall reveal all votes legally cast on that proposal. If the Speaker's consent may be required for a proposal to be adopted, then the Speaker should indicate at that time whether or not e gives eir consent. If the Speaker does not explicitly indicate that e refuses to consent to the proposal, it shall be assumed that e consents.

'209.' The required votes for a proposal to be adopted is as follows:

For a proposal which would directly alter the actions which are required of and/or forbidden to the Speaker:

a) a simple majority of all votes legally cast, if the Speaker consents;
b) a 2/3 majority of all votes legally cast, if the Speaker does not consent;

For all other proposals, a simple majority of votes legally cast. This rule defers to rules which set the required number of votes for proposals which propose to transmute a rule.

'210.' An adopted rule change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

'211.' Voters who voted against proposals which are adopted receive 10 points apiece. Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive. Players whose proposals are not adopted shall lose 10 points.

'212.' If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

'213.' If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then a player may invoke judgement by submitting a statement for judgement to the Speaker. Disagreement, for the purposes of this rule, may be created by the insistence of any player. When judgement is invoked, the Speaker must, as soon as possible, select a Judge as described in the Rules. The Speaker must then distribute the statement to be judged, along with the identity of the Judge, to all players.

'214.' If judgement was invoked by a Voter, then the first Judge to be selected to judge that statement shall be the Speaker. If judgement was invoked by the Speaker, the first Judge to be selected shall be a randomly selected Voter.

In all cases, if a Judge beyond the first must be selected to judge a statement, it shall be a randomly selected Voter. The Voter thus selected may not be the player most recently selected as Judge for that statement, nor may e be the player who invoked judgement.

'215.' After the Speaker has distributed the statement to be judged and the identity of the Judge, the Judge has one week in which to deliver a legal judgement. If the Judge fails to deliver a judgement within this time, e is penalized 10 points and a new Judge is selected. A judgement is delivered by submitting that judgement to the Speaker, who must then distribute that judgement to all players as soon as possible.

'216.' A legal judgement is either TRUE, FALSE, or UNDECIDED. The judgement may be accompanied by reasons and arguments, but such reasons and arguments form no part of the judgement itself. If a judgement is accompanied by reasons and arguments, the Speaker must distribute the reasons and arguments along with the judgement.

'217.' All judgements must be in accordance with the rules; however, if the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the statement to be judged, then the Judge shall consider game custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

'218.' In addition to duties which may be listed elsewhere in the rules,

the Speaker shall have the following duties

        * register new players
        * maintain a list of all players and their current scores, and make such a list available to all players
        * maintain a complete list of the current rules, and make such a list available to all players
        * make a random determination whenever such determination is required by the rules.

'219.' If a player believes that the rules are such that further play is impossible, or that the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or that a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the player may invoke judgement on a statement to that effect. If the statement is judged TRUE, then the player who invoked judgement shall be declared the winner of that game, and the game ends, with no provision for starting another game.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner of the game.

or Pure Nomic, where the only rule is All players must agree to any changes to the game.

So, if you're interested in playing, say so, and say what rules you'd like. and could someone add a poll for the rulesets? If enough people want to play I'll set up a site for it.

previous thread (Click to reveal)

HEY! I've got a lot of free time on my hands do to soul crushing loneliness but not really money and I'm waiting on my bluetooth dongle to come in so I can shove games onto my phone so I want to
know are there any good games you can play by SMS or Email? Like the kind of thing I'm looking for is like a choose your own adventure or interactive fiction or something
not like tabletop RPGs and shit those can't hold my attention

so if you know any of these types of g
ames can you tell me? I'm bored and I need something to keep from spending all day wrapped around a pillow crying pass the time.

Title: Nomic
Post by: goat on August 19, 2008, 03:00:29 am

You're limited depending on what's available for your phone. Check out what your carrier offers, or check out cell phone game sites online (why are you limiting yourself to email/sms games that will have a charge per message sent?).

Title: Nomic
Post by: dojoin on August 19, 2008, 05:17:13 am

if you have enough free time
do not try games to spare it
music and e books would be good enough
or you can just pick up a language

Title: Nomic
Post by: Vellfire on August 19, 2008, 12:24:07 pm

Quote from: dojoin on August 19, 2008, 05:17:13 am

if you have enough free time
do not try games to spare it
music and e books would be good enough
or you can just pick up a language

is this a poem????

Title: Nomic
Post by: Alec on August 20, 2008, 01:07:01 am

Quote from: goat on August 19, 2008, 03:00:29 am

You're limited depending on what's available for your phone. Check out what your carrier offers, or check out cell phone game sites online (why are you limiting yourself to email/sms games that will have a charge per message sent?).

i have unlimited texting so yeah that's it.

I used to fill the boredom with twitter but tmobile won't let me use short codes cause they're dicks.

EDIT: oh and by filling time I mean until I get my transmission fixed I'm pretty much stuck in town all day before/after work and it's really boring sometimes and I need something to occupy. I would write but I don't feel like carrying around a notebook and pen sometimes I write on my phone though.

Title: Nomic
Post by: Mr. Actionist on August 20, 2008, 07:10:32 am

Try http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic if you're looking for a game that will make you think. A lot.

Title: Nomic
Post by: Alec on August 20, 2008, 12:55:26 pm

that game actually sounds interesting but I'm hoping my dongle comes in today when I'm off. maybe I'll try getting my family into it or setting up a personal Nomic website thanks.

added to the OP (Click to reveal)

EDIT: This thread is no longer about SMS games this thread is about Nomic (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomic). Basically I'm seeing if I were to set up a nomic site if anyone would be interested in playing. so I don't waste my time:

Quote from: wikipedia

Rules are divided up into two types: mutable and immutable. The main difference between these is that immutable rules must be changed into mutable rules (called transmuting) before they can be modified or removed. Immutable rules also take precedence over mutable ones. A rule change may be:

    * the addition of a new mutable rule
    * an amendment to a mutable rule
    * the repeal of a mutable rule
    * the transmutation of a rule from mutable to immutable
    * or the transmutation of a rule from immutable to mutable

The Rules:
There are a few different rulesets that we could choose from, the original has more to do with live play so I don't think it's a good idea:

original ruleset (Click to reveal)

Initial Set of Rules

Immutable Rules

101. All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect whenever a game begins. The Initial Set consists of Rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-213 (mutable).

*

102. Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

*

103. A rule-change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; (2) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of an amendment of a mutable rule; or (3) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

*

104. All rule-changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes.

*

105. Every player is an eligible voter. Every eligible voter must participate in every vote on rule-changes.

*

106. All proposed rule-changes shall be written down before they are voted on. If they are adopted, they shall guide play in the form in which they were voted on.

*

107. No rule-change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule-change may have retroactive application.

*

108. Each proposed rule-change shall be given a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule-change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it. If an amendment is amended or repealed, the entire rule of which it is a part receives the number of the proposal to amend or repeal the amendment.

*

109. Rule-changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

*

110. In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

*

111. If a rule-change as proposed is unclear, ambiguous, paradoxical, or destructive of play, or if it arguably consists of two or more rule-changes compounded or is an amendment that makes no difference, or if it is otherwise of questionable value, then the other players may suggest amendments or argue against the proposal before the vote. A reasonable time must be allowed for this debate. The proponent decides the final form in which the proposal is to be voted on and, unless the Judge has been asked to do so, also decides the time to end debate and vote.

*

112. The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

*

113. A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

*

114. There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule-changes must never become completely impermissible.

*

115. Rule-changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule-changes are as permissible as other rule-changes. Even rule-changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule-change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

*

116. Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

*

Mutable Rules

201. Players shall alternate in clockwise order, taking one whole turn apiece. Turns may not be skipped or passed, and parts of turns may not be omitted. All players begin with zero points.

In mail and computer games, players shall alternate in alphabetical order by surname.

*

202. One turn consists of two parts in this order: (1) proposing one rule-change and having it voted on, and (2) throwing one die once and adding the number of points on its face to one's score.

In mail and computer games, instead of throwing a die, players subtract 291 from the ordinal number of their proposal and multiply the result by the fraction of favorable votes it received, rounded to the nearest integer. (This yields a number between 0 and 10 for the first player, with the upper limit increasing by one each turn; more points are awarded for more popular proposals.)

*

203. A rule-change is adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among the eligible voters. If this rule is not amended by the end of the second complete circuit of turns, it automatically changes to require only a simple majority.

*

204. If and when rule-changes can be adopted without unanimity, the players who vote against winning proposals shall receive 10 points each.

*

205. An adopted rule-change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

*

206. When a proposed rule-change is defeated, the player who proposed it loses 10 points.

*

207. Each player always has exactly one vote.

*

208. The winner is the first player to achieve 100 (positive) points.

In mail and computer games, the winner is the first player to achieve 200 (positive) points.

*

209. At no time may there be more than 25 mutable rules.

*

210. Players may not conspire or consult on the making of future rule-changes unless they are team-mates.

The first paragraph of this rule does not apply to games by mail or computer.

*

211. If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or to defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

*

212. If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then the player preceding the one moving is to be the Judge and decide the question. Disagreement for the purposes of this rule may be created by the insistence of any player. This process is called invoking Judgment.

When Judgment has been invoked, the next player may not begin his or her turn without the consent of a majority of the other players.

The Judge's Judgment may be overruled only by a unanimous vote of the other players taken before the next turn is begun. If a Judge's Judgment is overruled, then the player preceding the Judge in the playing order becomes the new Judge for the question, and so on, except that no player is to be Judge during his or her own turn or during the turn of a team-mate.

Unless a Judge is overruled, one Judge settles all questions arising from the game until the next turn is begun, including questions as to his or her own legitimacy and jurisdiction as Judge.

New Judges are not bound by the decisions of old Judges. New Judges may, however, settle only those questions on which the players currently disagree and that affect the completion of the turn in which Judgment was invoked. All decisions by Judges shall be in accordance with all the rules then in effect; but when the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the point at issue, then the Judge shall consider game-custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

*

213. If the rules are changed so that further play is impossible, or if the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or if by the Judge's best reasoning, not overruled, a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the first player unable to complete a turn is the winner.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner.

The Agora Ruleset was designed more for internet play:

agora (Click to reveal)

'Immutable Rules'

'101.' All players must always abide by all the rules then in effect, in the form in which they are then in effect. The rules in the Initial Set are in effect at the beginning of the first game. The Initial Set consists of rules 101-116 (immutable) and 201-219 (mutable).

'102.' Initially rules in the 100's are immutable and rules in the 200's are mutable. Rules subsequently enacted or transmuted (that is, changed from immutable to mutable or vice versa) may be immutable or mutable regardless of their numbers, and rules in the Initial Set may be transmuted regardless of their numbers.

'103.' At any time, each player shall be either a Voter or the Speaker; no player may simultaneously be a Voter and a Speaker. At any time there shall be exactly one Speaker. The term "player" in the rules shall specifically include both the Voters and the Speaker.

'104.' The Speaker for the first game shall be Michael Norrish.

'105.' A rule change is any of the following: (1) the enactment, repeal, or amendment of a mutable rule; or (2) the transmutation of an immutable rule into a mutable rule or vice versa.

(Note: This definition implies that, at least initially, all new rules are mutable; immutable rules, as long as they are immutable, may not be amended or repealed; mutable rules, as long as they are mutable, may be amended or repealed; any rule of any status may be transmuted; no rule is absolutely immune to change.)

'106.' All rule changes proposed in the proper way shall be voted on. They will be adopted if and only if they receive the required number of votes and quorum is achieved.

'107.' Any proposed rule change must be written down (or otherwise communicated in print media) before it is voted on. If adopted, it must guide play in the form in which it was voted on.

'108.' No rule change may take effect earlier than the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it, even if its wording explicitly states otherwise. No rule change may have retroactive application.

'109.' The Speaker shall give each proposed rule change a number for reference. The numbers shall begin with 301, and each rule change proposed in the proper way shall receive the next successive integer, whether or not the proposal is adopted.

If a rule is repealed and reenacted, it receives the number of the proposal to reenact it. If a rule is amended or transmuted, it receives the number of the proposal to amend or transmute it.

'110.' Rule changes that transmute immutable rules into mutable rules may be adopted if and only if the vote is unanimous among votes legally cast. Transmutation shall not be implied, but must be stated explicitly in a proposal to take effect.

'111.' In a conflict between a mutable and an immutable rule, the immutable rule takes precedence and the mutable rule shall be entirely void. For the purposes of this rule a proposal to transmute an immutable rule does not "conflict" with that immutable rule.

'112.' The state of affairs that constitutes winning may not be altered from achieving n points to any other state of affairs. The magnitude of n and the means of earning points may be changed, and rules that establish a winner when play cannot continue may be enacted and (while they are mutable) be amended or repealed.

'113.' A player always has the option to forfeit the game rather than continue to play or incur a game penalty. No penalty worse than losing, in the judgment of the player to incur it, may be imposed.

'114.' There must always be at least one mutable rule. The adoption of rule changes must never become completely inpermissible.

'115.' Rule changes that affect rules needed to allow or apply rule changes are as permissible as other rule changes. Even rule changes that amend or repeal their own authority are permissible. No rule change or type of move is impermissible solely on account of the self-reference or self-application of a rule.

'116.' Whatever is not prohibited or regulated by a rule is permitted and unregulated, with the sole exception of changing the rules, which is permitted only when a rule or set of rules explicitly or implicitly permits it.

Mutable rules

'201.' Quorum for a proposed rule change is defined to be 20% of Voters at the beginning of the prescribed voting period for that proposal

'202.' All players begin with 0 points. Points may not be gained, lost, or traded except as explicitly stated in the rules.

'203.' The winner is the first Voter to achieve 100 (positive) points. If more than one Voter achieves this condition simultaneously, all such Voters win.

When a game ends in this manner

        * If there is only one winner, that Voter becomes the Speaker, and the old Speaker becomes a Voter
        * If there is more than one winner, the Speaker randomly selects one of the winners, who becomes the new Speaker, and the old Speaker becomes a Voter.
        * All players' scores are reset to 0.
        * A new game is begun. All rules and proposed rule changes retain the status they had at the end of the old game.

'204.' A proposal shall be made by submitting it to the Speaker. Only Voters may make proposals. As soon as possible after receiving a proposal, the Speaker shall assign the proposal a number and distribute the proposal along with its number to all players

'205.' The prescribed voting period for a proposal shall be one week, beginning at the time the Speaker distributes the proposal to all players.

'206.' Each Voter has exactly one vote. The Speaker may not vote.

'207.' Voters may vote either for or against any proposal within its prescribed voting period. In order to be legally cast, the vote must be received by the Speaker by the end of the prescribed voting period. The Speaker may not reveal any votes until the end of the prescribed voting period. Any Voter who does not legally vote within the prescribed voting period shall be deemed to have abstained.

'208.' At the end of the prescribed voting period on a proposal, the Speaker shall reveal all votes legally cast on that proposal. If the Speaker's consent may be required for a proposal to be adopted, then the Speaker should indicate at that time whether or not e gives eir consent. If the Speaker does not explicitly indicate that e refuses to consent to the proposal, it shall be assumed that e consents.

'209.' The required votes for a proposal to be adopted is as follows:

For a proposal which would directly alter the actions which are required of and/or forbidden to the Speaker:

a) a simple majority of all votes legally cast, if the Speaker consents;
b) a 2/3 majority of all votes legally cast, if the Speaker does not consent;

For all other proposals, a simple majority of votes legally cast. This rule defers to rules which set the required number of votes for proposals which propose to transmute a rule.

'210.' An adopted rule change takes full effect at the moment of the completion of the vote that adopted it.

'211.' Voters who voted against proposals which are adopted receive 10 points apiece. Players whose proposals are adopted shall receive a random number of points in the range 1-10 inclusive. Players whose proposals are not adopted shall lose 10 points.

'212.' If two or more mutable rules conflict with one another, or if two or more immutable rules conflict with one another, then the rule with the lowest ordinal number takes precedence.

If at least one of the rules in conflict explicitly says of itself that it defers to another rule (or type of rule) or takes precedence over another rule (or type of rule), then such provisions shall supersede the numerical method for determining precedence.

If two or more rules claim to take precedence over one another or defer to one another, then the numerical method again governs.

'213.' If players disagree about the legality of a move or the interpretation or application of a rule, then a player may invoke judgement by submitting a statement for judgement to the Speaker. Disagreement, for the purposes of this rule, may be created by the insistence of any player. When judgement is invoked, the Speaker must, as soon as possible, select a Judge as described in the Rules. The Speaker must then distribute the statement to be judged, along with the identity of the Judge, to all players.

'214.' If judgement was invoked by a Voter, then the first Judge to be selected to judge that statement shall be the Speaker. If judgement was invoked by the Speaker, the first Judge to be selected shall be a randomly selected Voter.

In all cases, if a Judge beyond the first must be selected to judge a statement, it shall be a randomly selected Voter. The Voter thus selected may not be the player most recently selected as Judge for that statement, nor may e be the player who invoked judgement.

'215.' After the Speaker has distributed the statement to be judged and the identity of the Judge, the Judge has one week in which to deliver a legal judgement. If the Judge fails to deliver a judgement within this time, e is penalized 10 points and a new Judge is selected. A judgement is delivered by submitting that judgement to the Speaker, who must then distribute that judgement to all players as soon as possible.

'216.' A legal judgement is either TRUE, FALSE, or UNDECIDED. The judgement may be accompanied by reasons and arguments, but such reasons and arguments form no part of the judgement itself. If a judgement is accompanied by reasons and arguments, the Speaker must distribute the reasons and arguments along with the judgement.

'217.' All judgements must be in accordance with the rules; however, if the rules are silent, inconsistent, or unclear on the statement to be judged, then the Judge shall consider game custom and the spirit of the game before applying other standards.

'218.' In addition to duties which may be listed elsewhere in the rules,

the Speaker shall have the following duties

        * register new players
        * maintain a list of all players and their current scores, and make such a list available to all players
        * maintain a complete list of the current rules, and make such a list available to all players
        * make a random determination whenever such determination is required by the rules.

'219.' If a player believes that the rules are such that further play is impossible, or that the legality of a move cannot be determined with finality, or that a move appears equally legal and illegal, then the player may invoke judgement on a statement to that effect. If the statement is judged TRUE, then the player who invoked judgement shall be declared the winner of that game, and the game ends, with no provision for starting another game.

This rule takes precedence over every other rule determining the winner of the game.

or Pure Nomic, where the only rule is All players must agree to any changes to the game.

So, if you're interested in playing, say so, and say what rules you'd like. and could someone add a poll for the rulesets? If enough people want to play I'll set up a site for it.

personally I'd rather play with the pure ruleset because all that other shit is a lot of reading and I don't really care that much.

Title: Nomic
Post by: Vellfire on August 20, 2008, 01:52:43 pm

This game sounds interesting in concept but really boring in action.

Title: Nomic
Post by: Alec on August 20, 2008, 09:28:40 pm

yeah the more ithink about it sounds boring.

NEVERMIND LOCK NOW