Gaming World Forums

General Category => Entertainment and Media => Topic started by: Supra Mairo on October 11, 2008, 04:56:33 pm

Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Supra Mairo on October 11, 2008, 04:56:33 pm
Hi.

Just wondering if anyone here has any sort of interest in Source mapping with Valves own Hammer level editor, or any interest in level editing whatsoever?

Recently I've been tinkering with the Hammer editor trying out all the Source games I possess (Portal, Tf2, Hl2) and even when it's pretty tedious building levels from scratch it's also really fun. I have some past experience with Hammer so maybe it was just easier for me but it's pretty easy getting acquainted with it if you have any common sense on you. It takes it's time offcourse but there's a lot of video tutorials and the hammer editor help wiki or whatever is also pretty great if you can't figure something out.

Personally I'm mostly interested in TF2 mapping because I feel out of all the source games I have it is the most popular one and while Portal is really fun too it's singleplayer and I don't think I have the brains to conjure any complex Portal puzzles.


I really don't plan ahead when I work on dem maps, MAKE-AS-YOU-GO is more like it, but I can't really recommend that to anyone because you'll just build your map into a deadend where you wake up and realize that it comepletely favors some class or team or doesn't offer enough alternative routes, and you'll just end up deleting it in a fit of rage and shame. Been there, done that.

If there are any mapping enthusiasts on GW then I would like this topic to be a sort of SHARE URE TIPS AND TRIX topic with also discussing GOOD level design, maybe even show off your maps if you're working on or have made any. But I dunno, I have no idea if tf2 mapping has some really niche userbase and I think one of the biggest problems is getting your map on a server that has 10+ people playing on it so you could at least know how much it sucks in other peoples opinion. Then again Valve has a habit of including some user made maps in all the big updates so if the map is good enough it'll pull through on it's own.

I know GW has a lot of people who more or less actively play TF2 so maybe you could ask around and get people playing and giving you feedback although I gotta be honest here and say that it would have to be a really fun/good looking map before I'd play it and I'm guessing some people might share this prejudice.


BUT HEY ANYWAYS, BEEN DOING THIS MAP CALLED CP_BESTMAP and as you can guess it's going to be the BESTMAP so here I'll show you a glimpse of what I've managed to make with around 4 days of experience:



It's the blue team spawnroom interior, for 16 people (I reckon it is a bit crowded but I could always make another spawnroom). There's also a few corridors and a bigger open area complete with lighting and texturing but it only took like 1 or 2 hours to make all that.


SO ANYONE INTERESTED IN THIS CLUBHOUSE?!?!?
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: goat on October 11, 2008, 07:02:52 pm
I've been wanting to mess with hammer, and there IS a lack of good custom maps with TF2. Is it pretty easy to learn? I haven't messed with any level editors outside doom...
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Eltee on October 11, 2008, 07:07:32 pm
The problem is that I don't know how to map and I don't think I could map for shit.

Heh. :(


I'm like goat in this. DooM map making is pretty simple, since, it's 2d. Entirely 2d-based editor.

I did try UT mapping once, but I think I've forgotten at least part of it. I could never do landscapes either...
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Supra Mairo on October 11, 2008, 07:29:03 pm
I can't imagine it being all that much harder than the doom editor.

It's got the basic brushes like cylinders, blocks, arcs etc. that you make the level geometry with, then you have the vertex tool that you can use to 'drag' shapes (making natural looking landscapes etc.), texturing is pretty easy and there's plenty of tools like overlays and shit if you want some specific spot to have a specific texture, like say, arrows painted on walls.

Previewing your work is easy from the 3D-view which I think every 3D editor has, moves with WASD + Z for freelook.

I think the only hard part is to understand how all the DYNAMIC elements like spawnrooms, resupply lockers, doors and opening them works. It's not all that hard but suprisingly time consuming if you want something fancy. For example all the doors open up on default when they are touched but you can define an area that opens the door when it's entered and closes it when you exit the area (mostly used to expand the activation distance of doors), then there's the SETUP GATES which open up after the round setup time goes to zero and I've read some articles that say that you can make doom-style elevators using doors that go into the ground when opened and back up when closed.

It's also pretty flexible in that you can change a whole lot of the default shit like what text pops up when you cap or what sounds are played when the narrator makes the countdown etc.

But if you're just starting up then there are some hotkeys and features that make the editor 1000x easier to use:

- Holding shift while dragging an object will duplicate the object in the location you drop it, this is 10x better than copy-paste because the editor sets it in the same altitude/z/x value (depends on what view you are doing this in)
- Control+T , this ties a brush to an entity (used for trigger areas, spawnroomareas, engies-cannot-build areas etc.)
- Control+M , this is really good if you want precise rotation


Maybe there's something else that I forgot to mention but check out some of the youtube tutorials, they may have annoying commentators but you can learn a lot from them + the Valve documentary is really good although you need an active internet connection to view them.

Also, if you've played the (horrible) orange maps which are just really basic geometry with 2 textures, I'd say it takes around 1 hour to make a similar map that is playable (not that the orange maps are playable because they blow but you know what I mean).



Also the only 3D part in this editor is the 3D preview and that's just used to, well, preview the map. You build the map using 3 different 2D views (X,Y,Z).
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Supra Mairo on October 11, 2008, 07:40:43 pm
Here's a screen of the editor with some texts:


(http://gamingw.net/pubaccess/37898/hammer1.PNG)


All those tools that have been X'd off are pretty useless, like ZOOM and CAMERA etc. and you won't need them if you're just starting and I doubt you need them later on either. So it's pretty simple. On the background you can see CP_BESTMAP being structured piece by piece. There's a lot of shit it seems on the wireframe views but that's because I added props before the map was done which I think isn't a really good idea if you want a more clean view in the editor. All the lightblue shit are premade props that you can just drop in there (includes props hl2 + the game you are mapping for, so basically A LOT of props).
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: HL on October 11, 2008, 08:05:15 pm
I'm learning how to map because I want to make a custom Arena map. I have a really awesome idea for one but I'm still learning how to use it. There's tons of resources online for it if you google.
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: The Magi on October 11, 2008, 08:15:10 pm
There's a comprehensive documentation on Valve's website that covers Hammer as well as tf2 exclusive stuff: http://developer.valvesoftware.com/wiki/Team_Fortress_2_Level_Creation

Making the map pretty is only half of the challenge. Making a balanced map in tf2 is hard as fuck and will suck entire days of your time away
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Supra Mairo on October 11, 2008, 08:32:03 pm
Quote from: HL on October 11, 2008, 08:05:15 pm
I'm learning how to map because I want to make a custom Arena map. I have a really awesome idea for one but I'm still learning how to use it. There's tons of resources online for it if you google.
Hey dude, I'd be more than willing to cooperate and/or make a basic frame with spawns and shit if you can provide some sort of VISUAL blueprints. My biggest problem at the moment is texturing I can do a lot of the other shit pretty effortlessly.
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: HL on October 11, 2008, 10:35:50 pm
dude that sounds awesome. this is definitely just a side project for me but I'm slowly chipping at it each day. I'm still in the planning phase, because I'm trying to design a level that is balanced from the get go. Or at least really close to it. I've gone through like 10 revisions on paper already, but when I get something final I'll send it your way probably! It won't be any time soon, but oh well.
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: The Magi on October 12, 2008, 12:45:39 am
please design a linear push control point map these are the best types to play and also the easiest to balance

see: granary and badlands
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Eltee on October 12, 2008, 03:10:43 am
Quote from: Supra Mairo on October 11, 2008, 07:29:03 pm
I can't imagine it being all that much harder than the doom editor.

It's got the basic brushes like cylinders, blocks, arcs etc. that you make the level geometry with, then you have the vertex tool that you can use to 'drag' shapes (making natural looking landscapes etc.), texturing is pretty easy and there's plenty of tools like overlays and shit if you want some specific spot to have a specific texture, like say, arrows painted on walls.

I guess it does look like an usual 3d mapping program (like ut and doom 3 and whatever)

but the doom editor(s) really aren't like this, just to note:

no brushes whatsoever, all it works with are LINES(to create sectors) and ACTORS(obvious enough)


i guess texturing is pretty universal but back on that it's just click line-select texture and if it's not aligned fine just go fix it's x/y

so i guess that's not too far off


Just to give an example.


But yeah, I'll give this a spin sometime.
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Supra Mairo on October 12, 2008, 12:45:59 pm
Quote from: The Magi on October 12, 2008, 12:45:39 am
please design a linear push control point map these are the best types to play and also the easiest to balance

see: granary and badlands
I think granary is just really horrible map in general, I'm not talking about balance or gameplay but it's just NOT FUN for me. I think maps like gravel pit are really good because they aren't so linear or at least offer you some choice in what you can do and it's really fun to play and pretty balanced since it doesn't really favor either team, both win a plenty of times.
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: goat on October 13, 2008, 06:31:43 pm
I love granary and badlands. Awesome ambush maps. The editor looks pretty similar to a 3d modeler I used in middle school. Balancing would definitely be the hardest part, and I'm going to be looking at a lot of the other valve maps to see how they handle different situations. They always have at least two ways to get somewhere, and they love putting objects in the line of sight of areas that could be abused otherwise.
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Supra Mairo on October 14, 2008, 04:05:56 pm
Man, there doesn't seem to be that much new textures with the alpine setting. Maybe it was just the grass textures and blueish-gray rock, everything else seems to be from the mining/wasteland setting.

Also making sensible building interiors and to some extent exteriors is really hard, especially when you try to think of something to block unbalanced sniper positions etc.
Title: Source Mapping (Team Fortress 2)
Post by: Supra Mairo on October 14, 2008, 09:12:07 pm
I started this payload map today which is essentially a huge bridge with the blue spawn at one end and the final cap and red spawn in the other, one cap in the middle of the bridge and maybe one more near the blue spawn?. I dunno if the bridge looks a bit funny without any roof/ceiling but I think it's DECENT:






Looks pretty crude without the ingame lighting.

EDIT:
Just a tip: don't use environment lighting until your map is otherwise done, it takes ages to compile all those lightmaps (20 minutes on my comp on a rather small sized map).