Gaming World Forums
General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: Chubby Skelly on October 18, 2008, 10:45:33 pm
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For those who are unaware, one of the California propositions that is going to be on the ballot this November is called Proposition 8. In a nutshell, if this proposition is passed, the California constitution will be amended to prevent gay couples from getting married. This right was recently recognized by a California court ruling.
I'm reaching out to people because right now it looks like this proposition actually has a good chance of passing, and because this proposition will have a direct negative impact on my personal rights and future. Regardless of what you might think about deep blue state California, our state politics are terrible and we have just as many hicks and fundamentalist religions as everyone else. If this thing does pass it would essentially take another statewide vote to undo the damage.
If you have even just a few bux you can spare to donate to the campaign, or have family in California you can talk to, please do so. It literally takes one minute to donate if you have a credit card. You don't even have to be a California resident to donate (though I do believe you must be a U.S. citizen, but I'm not sure). If you are a California resident, please go out to vote on election day and help prevent this hateful garbage from passing.
No on 8 campaign site (http://www.noonprop8.com/)
Just FYI I am not associated with this campaign in any way other than I just gave them some money and felt like trying to solicit some extra help.
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i won't donate, but i'll be sure to vote for prop 8!
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We've got the same thing in Florida
I voted no on it but there was a fucking message on my answering machine asking for a vote of yes that whores lucky I didn't answer the phone
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wow I did not know california was so shit. i'll consider donating, but I don't feel like m BUX will have nearly as much impact as a single vote of a california citizen.
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i won't donate, but i'll be sure to vote for prop 8!
are you dense
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jesus christ www.protectmarriage.com ugh
how do you build a website filled with pics of JOYFUL MOMS AND DADS HUGGING THEIR KIDS while the base of their argument is ..... kindergarteners will be forced to learn about..... homos.... in school (which happens to be untrue)
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hmm well listen marriage is the union between a man and a WOMAN so unless the fags can decide which is the woman between them to get a sex change then they can't marry imo. LOL
But that's just my 2 cent
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was it legal in the first place or is this just in case it becomes universally legal it'll kick in or something
if its been legal for a while i don't think it'll pass
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No gay marriage is only legal in like ONE state I think, they just want to ensure that it isn't legal in their state which is incredibly prejudiced, any way you put it.
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"welll ist sacred and um god only intended-"
fuck that shit separation of church and state you are a fucking bigot
EDIT: I don't understand why human rights people aren't all over this bill because it is so fucking ridiculously wrong in every way
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ANYONE stupid enough to get married should be allowed to do so
but you're asking us to spend money on something that's backwards in the USA?
heh not even with all the money in the world, brother
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someone asked lars to donate money for wells in africa and he just spat in the collection jar it appears.
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Didn't Biden say something like marriage was only between a man and a woman, but he was completely for some sort of legal union which is basically the same thing with a different name? Are you sure this is what you think it is?
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Didn't Biden say something like marriage was only between a man and a woman, but he was completely for some sort of legal union which is basically the same thing with a different name? Are you sure this is what you think it is?
Yes he is for Union for homosexuals not marriage, but California passed the ability for homosexuals to marry, and this proposition is to remove their ability to marry. Union is good and all, and it confers the same benefits as marriage pretty much, but to some people it isn't the same thing. (We're lesser because we ain't good enough to be married in them peoples church...)
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basically the weird thing is the argument that marriage is basically the same as a civil union actually demeans the meaning of marriage more. it's just saying MARRIAGE IS A LEGAL PROCEDURE W00T. if anything you'd think straight people would get civil unions all the time.
just a DoopzOwnzFact.
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if i lived in california i would care.
someone i work with from california approached me last week and said "when i go home i'm going to rip up every poster board i see that's for proposition 8." i told him he was stupid and he called me a fascist.
highlight of last week.
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Oh I see. If this bill passes, will gay people still have the rights to a civil union in California?
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man when did marriage become a legal binding contract granting specific benefits and not a, you know, union between two people in love? 90% of the people in the military marry apathetic phillipino women just so they can get a tax break + extra money + government support and the womenz get american citizenship.
disgusting
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if homosexual get married what next???? dogs and humands get maried?? good job trying to open the floodgates for beastialtiy dickh*les but your scheme has failed.
vote yes on prop 8...
if you are not fully convinced... just take the video quiz....
http://www.iprotectmarriage.com/the-issue/
decide for youself...
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it's okay to see attractive men kissing, but when it's ugly guys it's just...it's not right....vote prop 8. sorry ugly men out there, you won't be able to get married in my world!
visiting your husband in the hospital....not on my watch mt*ter fkrs!
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Q: Isn't banning gay marriage just like banning interracial marriage?
A: It's completely unrelated. Blacks who endured prejudice can't wake up in the morning and not be black. None of us can be counseled out of our race or ethnicity. But homosexual behavior is a choice, and countless gays and lesbians have left the homosexual lifestyle.
HOLY FUCK. the italics were not mine.
they're basically abandoning ITS A CHOICE TO BE GAY and instead thought policing your behavior.
what the fuck is this? they think they can go to the castro and say DONT BE SO FLAMBOYANT! HAVE SOME SWEATPANTS!
jesus christ. you know I've never been someone who appreciates flaunting of sexuality in any way and I've not really bought into that argument that gays are more flamboyant because society hates them anyways so might as well ride that train as far as possible but fuck don't take away my flamboyant gays! I love them! take the bitchy ones away they aren't nice to me but the ones that are HEEEEEEY IM CALLIN U SWEETIE or bikers wearing buttless chaps are a lot of fun!
DIE YOU STUPID CONSERVATIVE FUCKS.
so i guess i have bought into that argument huh. you learn things about yourself everyday...
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if this was BLACK BEHAVIOR and they used bill cosby as an example of leaving the black lifestyle, they would get their heads ripped off.
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What id do is make so that marriage no longer has any legal value whatsoever, and force people who want to get married to get a civil union as well, to reap the benefits they would have had with marriage before (but also allowing that marriages that happened before this law is passed to retroactively get a civil union status)
From that point, I don't give a fuck if religious people want to restrict their little religious circles only to those they see as good enough for it. If they don't want to let everyone get that precious MARRIED title of theirs, just take away all of its legal power until they decide they want to join the 21st century along with the rest of the civilized world.
I don't think it makes sense to like, force a religion to change its definition of marriage or change its religious laws. Religion isn't a democracy, its all the opposite.
On the other hand, religion can be seen as PERSONAL so what the fuck, start your own religion, one that JUST HAPPENS TO BE EXACTLY LIKE CHRISTIANISM EXCEPT ITS NOT BIGOTED AND DUMB. gogogo its a good idea, its yours, just keep it, call it CHRISTIANOSM
I can't understand how homosexuals can be religious like that, I mean, they are VERY WELL PLACED to realize the Bible wasn't the Word of all-knowing God, but the word of dumbasses who lived more than a thousand years ago and who had the backwards morals associated with that time.
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its not about being religious, but the fact that some people can get married in a church and others cant. no one wants to force the churches to accept them; just that if one did they would have the right to have a marriage.
basically there's no good argument against it and it's a symbolic victory for both sides. keep those queers out of one area of your life and you can push other areas later. let them into churches that might want them and slowly GASP they might become common place.
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A: It's completely unrelated. Blacks who endured prejudice can't wake up in the morning and not be black.
the hell i can! it's called plastic surgery and it worked for MJ
oh yeah homosexuals have been getting the short end of the stick for centuries hoho
The first recorded use of the word "marriage" for the union of same-sex couples also occurs during the Roman Empire. The term, however, was rarely associated with same-sex relationships, even though the relationships themselves were common.[12] In the year 342, the Christian emperors Constantius and Constans declared that same-sex marriage to be illegal.[13] In the year 390, the Christian emperors Valentinian II, Theodoisus and Arcadius declared homosexual sex to be illegal and those who were guilty of it were condemned to be burned alive in front of the public.
learn something new everyday.
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dude where do you think the term faggot came from. a faggot is an outdated term for a bundle of firewood.
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..... so if I understand, the government is like, "YOU CANT CALL IT MARRIAGE IF YOURE GAY YOU CAN CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT BUT IF YOU SAY THE WORD MARRIAGE JUST ONCE IN THE CEREMONY I PUT YOU IN PRISON AND BURN YOU R HOUSE"
Like. the WORD "marriage" is the problem? that cant possibly be it, thats like too dumb
I thought it was some sort of constitutional issue about the idea of having laws that amended a religion or something. That's like, childish. What the fuck, California
DONT TOUCH MY MARRIAGE YOU ARE UNDERMiNING MY PRIDE
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..... so if I understand, the government is like, "YOU CANT CALL IT MARRIAGE IF YOURE GAY YOU CAN CALL IT WHAT YOU WANT BUT IF YOU SAY THE WORD MARRIAGE JUST ONCE IN THE CEREMONY I PUT YOU IN PRISON AND BURN YOU R HOUSE"
Like. the WORD "marriage" is the problem? that cant possibly be it, thats like too dumb
I thought it was some sort of constitutional issue about the idea of having laws that amended a religion or something. That's like, childish. What the fuck, California
DONT TOUCH MY MARRIAGE YOU ARE UNDERMiNING MY PRIDE
Well, you receive benefits when you're married. Most of America doesn't want those benefits to extend to homosexuals. It's not about religion or love, it's about not giving legal rights to people of the same sex.
That's pretty much it I think. Marriage has completely lost its meaning in the modern world although after more research marriage has always been a legally binding thing and people in countries across the world have always expected things like gifts and power to come from marriage. Perhaps society is actually moving forward by believing marriage is a thing of love and not money and respect (but i could be wrong)
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No I think the issue is really the term marriage because civil union is legal for same sex couples, so its really the sentimental attachment to the word that conservatives are being dicks about
heh im gonna make a dictionary and under the definition of the word marriage ill put an example where its put in the context of a sentence and it will read "Harold and Bob have been married for 12 years." Cue thousands of death threats....
DON'T YOU TOUCH MY DEFINITION I AM VERY VERY TOUCHY ON DETAILS ABOUT THE EXACT DEFINITION OF WORDS I UTTER ABOUT TWENTY TIMES IN MY ENTIRE LIFETIME GO FAMILY VALUES BOO QUEERS GO BACK TO GAY LAND!!
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its absolutely the attachment to the word but it's been conflated from "sentimental" to "sacred". of course DIVORCE whoops.
look at this article i found while checking my origins of faggot (it was for any heretic but obv. picked up the homo meaning): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Okama#Japanese_gay_slang
Ketsuman
A portmanteau of the words ketsu and manko literally meaning "ass cunt," this word usually describes the anus of an "passive" male bottom. Compare "mangina"; "man-cunt."
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fuckin ketsuman.....
Seriously I'm shocked at how strong the bigot vote is in California, but after watching a documentary about the gay marriage fight in California and seeing the massive hysteria and fury following its legalization, I'm not so surprised. There were swarms of protesters with signs like "don't legalize perversion" and speakers yelling about hetero marriage being the "natural order" and the only way, since apparently reproduction is the only purpose of marriage. Also the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were mentioned.
Also I just don't get why the opponents of gay marriage can't understand that if they think gay marriage is immoral, then don't get one.. Not only that, but some of their arguments are laughable
It protects our children from being taught in public schools that “same-sex marriage” is the same as traditional marriage.
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Hey hey, im all for it. The more dudes that wanna stick each other in the ass leaves me more pussy to stick with less competition.
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Well, you receive benefits when you're married. Most of America doesn't want those benefits to extend to homosexuals. It's not about religion or love, it's about not giving legal rights to people of the same sex.
And so it all comes down to money.
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i'm all for this because i hate tibet.
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my parents have 'yes on 8' boards outside, i like how the only other thing written on them is something about parental rights(to not let their kids learn about homos in kindergarten?) and doesn't mention a single thing about what 8 is.
I was actually probably not going to vote at all(because i'm that lazy) until i got a call from some Mormon guy telling me to make sure i was register so i could vote yes on 8. I wish i had the balls to tell him how retarded he was at the time!
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Hey hey, im all for it. The more dudes that wanna stick each other in the ass leaves me more pussy to stick with less competition.
yeah but then every lesbian couple means TWO women you don't get
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hahahahaha "I can marry a princess, too!"
I don't get what's wrong with teaching kids THAT there are gay people who get married. There will always be kids who run home from school telling their parents about something they heard in school, but parents can still teach kids their moral points of view. And besides, kids learn that there are straight parents who get married too.
Also Mormons are scum. Remove those signs!
http://www.slate.com/id/2202384
The first time I saw these ads, I thought Proposition 8 was sunk: Is this the best the anti-gay marriage side can muster? An obviously tangential "Think of the children!" campaign? What's more, the ad is misleading: Although state law offers health-education guidelines for school districts to follow, it does not mandate a curriculum, and it explicitly allows parents to pull children out of any health classes they may find objectionable.
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And so it all comes down to money.
yeah and if you trace the history of marriage back to its roots you'll find that it always has been in pretty much every culture without fail.
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i'm not gonna donate money cos i just don't have it to give and i live in england so i dunno what else i can do but provide my cheap as free moral support. if only there was a petition to sign *eats a noodle in protest*
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*moral support*
I can't donate either i'm in canada. I don't know if i would donate anyway, honestly, but i would def. vote no.
edit: I don't really see anything wrong with learning about homosexuals the same way you would in like a sex ed class in middle school or something. Unless they're talking about a much younger age group, but really i still don't see anything wrong with it. They're going to find out eventually yeah, and maybe they're parents do not find their kids to learn about homosexuals that young. Im not being a dick, and that homosexuals are DIFFERENT than people who are not gay. They arn't besides their sexual preference(imho).
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my parents have 'yes on 8' boards outside, i like how the only other thing written on them is something about parental rights(to not let their kids learn about homos in kindergarten?) and doesn't mention a single thing about what 8 is.
This is usually the point where decent people replace those signs with "yes on 8 WHITE POWER" or "yes on 8 jews lied about the holocaust".
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in my state gays can get married (as of like LAST WEEK or something) and one of my professors (who is a lesbian) was really happy and let our class out early and decided that we didn't have to do that week's paper.
so no on 8 and hopefully you guys will have a class where you get out early as well :)
EDIT
also that video is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS i don't really GET where these people are coming from at all. even the DEFEND MARRIAGE thing it just doesn't make any sense to me.
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my parents have 'yes on 8' boards outside, i like how the only other thing written on them is something about parental rights(to not let their kids learn about homos in kindergarten?) and doesn't mention a single thing about what 8 is.
I was actually probably not going to vote at all(because i'm that lazy) until i got a call from some Mormon guy telling me to make sure i was register so i could vote yes on 8. I wish i had the balls to tell him how retarded he was at the time!
If you ever discover you are gay, and your parents learn about it, your parents are likely to like, DISOWN YOU or something. Maybe you should get them to change their minds!
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gays did 9/11. Why should they be allowed to marry?
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If you ever discover you are gay, and your parents learn about it, your parents are likely to like, DISOWN YOU or something.
yeah if they're heartless pieces of shit
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Well I mean, If they think gays are SO BAD that they'd put a sign on their front lawn to take away one of their rights...
I wouldn't say they're heartless pieces of shit, many people down in the states are just raised that way I guess. If you honestly believed that gays were SATAN WORSHIPPERS AND EVIL TO THE BONE, learning your own kid is ONE OF THEM could make you do pretty awful things.
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I think that would probably shift their perspectives a little bit, though. Most people don't see things in black and white, even if they seem like they do.
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Hey I want to clarify something: I am pretty sure there is more to this than "we want it to be called a marriage, 'civil union' is not a good enough term!" I understand it as being the difference between same-sex unions in California being recognized federally and not being recognized at all. Civil unions are like "marriage lite" because they only exist within California borders.
edit: whoops I think in CA they're called "domestic partnerships"
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yes but then you'll run into facetious dicks who will be like AH BUT WHY SHOULD ALL STATES BE FORCED TO RECOGNIZE YOUR MARRIAGE STATES RIGHTS STATES RIGHTS.
the real liberal position is to federally recognize gay marriage buttttttt not gonna happen.
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Too bad states' rights don't exist when it comes to recognizing contracts forged in other states
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nonono i didnt mean they would make sense, just that they'd say that.
heh...why should you determine my states...
basically if you try for a legal recourse it's about as dishonest as "i am for abortion because what if you get raped????"; you're still in the right but understating the fact that the real reason for gay marriage is because it should be a right (or that abortion is a woman's choice). it gives the other side too much room to dance around with terminology.
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basically the weird thing is the argument that marriage is basically the same as a civil union actually demeans the meaning of marriage more. it's just saying MARRIAGE IS A LEGAL PROCEDURE W00T.
Well marriage is indeed a legal procedure. It's just that people like to get married in a church; the church does not acknowledge marriage between two people of the same sex, however.
Isn't it so that the only reason we call them "civil unions" is because speaking of "civil marriage" won't get you elected if you're running for president?
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honestly idk i think this is kinda a non issue. its like trying to pass a bill on how it should be legal for gays and.............junglebunnies to join the kkk.if they were banning a civil union, that would be entirely a different thing but cmon why do you want to marry through a GODINSTITUTION where they traditionally h8 you????????????????????????????
idk if my partner wanted to marry through a church i would do it but i wouldnt really give a shit
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honestly idk i think this is kinda a non issue. its like trying to pass a bill on how it should be legal for gays and.............junglebunnies to join the kkk.if they were banning a civil union, that would be entirely a different thing but cmon why do you want to marry through a GODINSTITUTION where they traditionally h8 you????????????????????????????
idk if my partner wanted to marry through a church i would do it but i wouldnt really give a shit
its a symbolic victory for both sides of rights vs. religion.
fyi you know there are churches that are gay churches right. there are gay pastors and shit.
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isnt a bill like this just bar marriage through traditional churches though?
anyway gay churches are silly but w/e
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no, it's to bar any churches, if they would or wouldn't do it. a church has a right to not allow someone to get married in it already.
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I dated a girl once who said god loves gay people.... I mean I dont believe in god (not of the biblical god at least) but im almost positive there is a verse somewhere in the old testament about how man was meant for woman and in god's eyes thats the only thing that is acceptable. Dunno I guess. My god hates everyone but me anyways so.
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I think there are much better things to donate to. Like, children starving in Africa, and belly parasites!
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I think there are much better things to donate to. Like, children starving in Africa, and belly parasites!
hey welcome back where you been girl???
nice use of brown text for africa by the way
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did your girlfriend break up with you nackster for another girl? heh
its all about the starving kids isnt it.
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hey welcome back where you been girl???
nice use of brown text for africa by the way
I have been getting in touch with my roots lately. Plus, I've been having totally boy troubles! I think it's very nice that homosexual couples would like to get married, but I simply do not believe that we should donate to this! I believe that there are greater causes out there than marriage!
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Getting in touch with your roots? More like you've been touching up your roots, gyrl!!!!!
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Getting in touch with your roots? More like you've been touching up your roots, gyrl!!!!!
You seriously had better not go there.
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hahahahaaha she hates fags and blacks, the perfect woman.
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hahahahaaha she hates fags and blacks, the perfect woman for vice president.
Fixed.
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I wish I lived in Cali to vote No on this, but I'm on the other end of the US.
I mean, anybody should be able to marry the partner of their choice. What happens behind closed doors is not really my concern, or anyones. Unless it something like murder... /random tangent.
I honestly don't think schools are going to teach about gay marriage, even if it's legalized. At least not THAT early. Hell, I've known about gay people since I was like... 10 or so (My father), and it's never hurt me in any way unless you count the whole... getting ridiculed in school and morons saying "You're dad is gay, so you HAVE to be gay, I'm gonna beat you up now because of this".
If you ever discover you are gay, and your parents learn about it, your parents are likely to like, DISOWN YOU or something.
Depends on how accepting vs. homophobic your parents are. When my brother came out, my parents were basically "We sort of expected you to turn out like this..."
Good luck though, Doozer
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I dated a girl once who said god loves gay people.... I mean I dont believe in god (not of the biblical god at least) but im almost positive there is a verse somewhere in the old testament about how man was meant for woman and in god's eyes thats the only thing that is acceptable. Dunno I guess. My god hates everyone but me anyways so.
love the sinner hate the sin
if gay marriage is legal how are they not going to teach about gay marriage? i guess schools don't really teach about marriage
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Ya there's stuff in there like Leviticus and shit "18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination" but I don't know that anyone takes it seriously anymore because.. you know.. he died for our sins and all.
I honestly don't think schools are going to teach about gay marriage, even if it's legalized. At least not THAT early. Hell, I've known about gay people since I was like... 10 or so (My father), and it's never hurt me in any way unless you count the whole... getting ridiculed in school and morons saying "You're dad is gay, so you HAVE to be gay, I'm gonna beat you up now because of this".
Also, shit, kids are cruel.
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Is that site's organization interviewing people who work for them?
Also, my thoughts on the issue.
I don't think marriage between same-sex couples is necessary because its asking religions to refute their beliefs, however, I don't actually think that's the driving issue when someone wants to ban marriages between same-sex couples. Its more to do that people think that the law should conform to their religious laws when it shouldn't. Oh, and hate for gay people.
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man, the US never cease to amaze me with their backwars evolution, I guess that probably in 100 years from now, you'll be all riding horses instead of cars.
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its hate
its all hate. If you want to call it something else then fine. But I GUARANTEE you that isn't it, they are hateful and they want to stop gays from having the same rights that they have. I'm willing to give them that, let them call it something else thats fine with me and if I was actually gay I might just let it be. but its all hatred and bigotry imo and people should realize that and if I speak to someone about it I will let them know that they're thinking that way whether subconsciously or not.
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I don't think marriage between same-sex couples is necessary because its asking religions to refute their beliefs,
no it's not. if your church refuses to marry gays, it is allowed to do so.
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If gays can't get married for religious reasons (despite SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE), then atheists can't either.
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wow. There's a bunch of "Yes on Prop 8" videos on youtube. Are these running on TV in Cali or what?
http://www.youtube.com/user/PreservingMarriage
"I don't see how same sex marriage hurts anyone else? really, what's the harm?"
"If proposition 8 fails there's a whole bunch of consequences. Did you know that church's that rent out their facilities for marriages could be forced to allow same sex marriage ceremonies on there properties."
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yeah if you choose to rent out your facilities. the hindu association of NC often rents out this freemason shrine for hindu functions. what do they think? some gay dudes are going to trick a church into renting shit out?
that is not how business works!
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I just watched a bunch of them, god they're fucking stupid.
voting no on prop 8 will erode religious freedom - fact
"gay marriage placed the desires of adults over the needs of children."
stop hurting our childrens :fogetangry:
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I don't think marriage between same-sex couples is necessary because its asking religions to refute their beliefs,
This isn't the care, really. In the Netherlands, the only party that's obliged to perform same-sex marriages is the government (this is actual "civil marriage" as opposed to just a civil union, by the way). It's up to the churches themselves to decide whether they want to do so. In all reason, that's probably the way it should be.
The problem then is that in America there will probably be very few churches to bless same-sex marriages. In the more liberal Netherlands this is no problem, as in practice many churches do so; America isn't ready for that yet. But we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.
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man i just looked up religion in america because i was sure islam would've been second most popular but second most popular is no affiliation/atheist at 15% with christianity at some 77% and the rest made up of everything else.
77% christian you dudes are a christian nation. like that's the same amount of jewish (religion) people in israel.
ALMOST 8 OUT OF EVERY 10 OF YOU ARE CHRISTIAN GOOD GRIEF. american atheists are overrepresented on the internet hugely.
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Or American atheists are hugely underrepresented in America?
How would anyone know if you were athiest/not affiliated? Most people that do not believe in god don't belong to some massive organization like the christian church so its a lot harder to count them.
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total population-religious population=unreligious population
77% christian makes a lot of american stuff that much worse, because you aught to know better
edit: that was aimed mostly at buisiness practices etc not the proposition
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yeah but like anyone who believes in the christian god could be considered christian. there are hundreds of christian religious groups in america that's not really a surprise. and probably a large portion of internet atheists are either trying to save face for their buddy's or are agnostic but when asked by a survey in real life might put down christian.
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and probably a large portion of internet atheists are either trying to save face for their buddy's
What makes you come to this conclusion?
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Apparently this thing is a toss-up. (http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/10/prop-8-toss-up.html)
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I have to ask why its so important that they get married in the first place? Couldnt they just change each others names and enjoy the same simulation?
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Good news:
http://news.cnet.com/8301-13579_3-10074793-37.html?part=rss&subj=news&tag=2547-1_3-0-20
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I have to ask why its so important that they get married in the first place? Couldnt they just change each others names and enjoy the same simulation?
wait what
no really is this serious because if so :fogetnah:
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I have to ask why its so important that they get married in the first place? Couldnt they just change each others names and enjoy the same simulation?
Married couples enjoy certain legal benefits.
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also there's kinda symbolic importance that to say two men can't get married implies it's of lesser meaning to a PERFECTLY NORMAL straight marriage.
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bump: prop 8 passed, but here's something:
UPDATE: The fight is on (http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3006759&pagenumber=3#post352021846).
there is an arguable legal challenge to prop. 8 that multiple groups, including the ACLU, are fighting. the bad news is that it's going to have to go back to the California Supreme Court (initially). this of course means that conservatives will do that crazy thing they do and get people to go nuts over their right to violate other people's rights being violated by those damn activist judges again.
i've seen a couple other legal scholars make the same argument, it seems like the consensus is that it's legally sound, but politically toxic.
Article 18 of the state Constitution provides that the document can be changed by amendment or by revision. An amendment may be enacted by initiative with a majority vote, whereas a revision must first be passed by two-thirds of the Legislature before being submitted to the voters. (California's Legislature has voted twice in recent years to legalize same-sex marriage, but the governor vetoed it.)
Does Proposition 8 qualify as a revision? Under the case law, it's a revision only if it "substantially alters the basic governmental framework set forth in our Constitution." Proposition 8 does exactly that, its opponents say, by eliminating a fundamental right for a specific group, and by limiting the judiciary's constitutional role in enforcing equal protection and privacy guarantees.
Historically, however, the court has taken a narrow view of what kind of measure "substantially alters the basic governmental framework." For example, neither Proposition 13, which capped property tax rates, nor Proposition 140, which imposed legislative term limits, were held to be a revision of the Constitution despite their far-reaching transformation of state government. Moreover, a 1972 initiative that reinstated the death penalty after the court had declared it cruel and unusual punishment was also deemed an amendment, not a revision, even though it directly limited the judiciary's power to declare fundamental rights.
Nevertheless, there are good reasons for the California Supreme Court to rethink its jurisprudence in this area. Even if Proposition 8 does not "substantially alter the basic governmental framework," there is no question that it targets a historically vulnerable group and eliminates a very important right. Changing the Constitution -- the state's paramount law -- in such a momentous way arguably calls for deliberative rather than direct democracy. Indeed, as early as the nation's founding, our constitutional tradition has favored representative democracy over simple majority rule when it comes to deciding minority rights.
The second question is whether Proposition 8 means the state must nullify the roughly 18,000 same-sex marriage licenses issued in recent months. Although the answer is not clear-cut, retroactivity is generally not favored in the law because people are entitled to conduct their lives in reliance on the law as it exists today, without having to anticipate how it might change in the future. Same-sex couples who got married may have decided to move in together, to buy property or even to adopt children in reliance on the personal commitment and societal legitimacy that accompany marriage.
Courts have been willing, in some instances, to apply a law retroactively if its retroactivity is clearly stated in the law itself or is clearly intended by the voters. But the text of Proposition 8 contains no clear statement to this effect. The official voter information guide contains a statement that Proposition 8 applies to marriages "regardless of when or where performed," but this language is buried in the fifth paragraph of the proponents' rebuttal to the opponents' argument. That's thin support for a finding of retroactivity.
Why does it matter whether gay couples remain married in a post-Proposition 8 world? One answer has to do with the dignity and stature that marriage confers. Even if marriage provides no greater rights than domestic partnership, a separate-but-equal regime unavoidably signals that same-sex relationships are of lesser worth.
Another answer has to do with the future of gay marriage writ large. Gay marriage is in the cross-hairs of a culture war, and culture wars, both sides know, are won through symbols, examples and personal experiences that shape one's worldview.
Each of the 18,000 same-sex couples and their families in California represents a potential catalyst for broader acceptance of gay marriage. The more familiar we become with gay spouses and their children -- as our friends, neighbors and co-workers -- the more gay marriage will become an unremarkable thread of our social fabric. Proposition 8 may then come to be viewed, in the long run, not as an enduring constitutional principle but as the will of a narrow and ultimately temporary majority.
here is the ACLU's LGBT page (http://www.aclu.org/lgbt/) that you can watch for updates or look at as a guide to take action. this apparently means harassing the fuck out of the Attorney General, the Governor, and representatives in the state legislature. if you are not a Californian, find one to harass into doing this. at the very least, we might be able to drain more mormon (and other Christian Right) money as they pay to do this shit and we have civil rights lawyers who work pro bono.
also black people are not responsible for proposition 8. if you want to feel dumb and/or angry, feel free to ask me why.
http://forums.somethingawful.com/showthread.php?threadid=3006759 for more.
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Why aren't black people responsible for proposition 8? I realize you aren't dm but I'm just throwing it out there. Any group who largely voted yes to prop 8 is responsible so I don't know why black people are not.
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the thread goes into detail but basically when prop 8 passed a lot of blame was thrown to black liberals who would vote for obama but not for prop 8. turns out pro-prop 8ers hit up poor, mostly black, neighborhoods with robo calls featuring a quote from barack obama saying "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman", cutting out the preceding "I'm against proposition 8 but". they also made the language of the vote confusing.
so it's not specifically black voters fault or here's dm's reply actually:
as you said, they spent a lot of money on deceptively wording this. they also sent out robo-calls with clips of Obama saying "I believe marriage is between a man and a woman" while leaving the "I oppose proposition 8, but" that was supposed to preceed it. when campaigns like this are run, what do you do to counter them? you inform people, and surprise, no on proposition 8 people didn't really reach out to black people (read: go to black neighborhoods). so you have to fault the opposition campaign for that too.
what really makes it a problem is that like 10 percent of the electorate was black. 52 percent voted for it total, 70 percent of black people did. if you subtract that number from the 70 percent, the deviance of the higher black vote on the total vote is somewhere around 2 percent, which doesn't come close to accounting for a 5 point split.
you can analyze and ask why the vote was that much higher, but you can't say that it had a decisive effect on the outcome.