Gaming World Forums
General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: Vesper on November 25, 2008, 04:31:22 pm
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In Sweden there are always ongoing debates about prostitution and other "immoral" pleasures like porn perhaps. I'm getting more and more frustrated with the debates were prostitution is considered "evil" in itself. I am agaisnt prostitution because it seems to me like whores get abused but I don't consider the act to be wrong. You got something to sell and I have a demand, that's how the market works. No action is in itself "evil", the consequences it has on another person is the "evil". If you could be sure the whore wasn't being abused I'd be all for it but I don't think you can be sure enough for it to be legal but I still don't think prostitution is wrong.
There's always the argument that no one wants to be a whore, it's dirty it's degrading and only desperate people do it! I don't see this as an argument, a personal nightmare of mine would be to be a cleaner. For me personally cleaning up after someone else would be degrading and I'd have to be desperate to do it. Pretty much the same thing just that prostitution involves sex oh god awful sex. God weeps every time you have sex that doesn't result in a child oh no. I'm do not like that we still have fucking christian values in our lawbook. It fucking sucks that religion still plays a part in our society because for me it's just a bunch of fucking fairytales. I spit on your values.
So what do you think about this? Is prostitution wrong?
Also why I'm writing this is because pretty soon norwegians men buying sex outside of their country are going to be commiting a crime. yes a norwegian man buying himself a whore or ten in thailand is going to be committing a crime in norway. ahahhahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha. you can discuss this too i guess. i also hate people telling me what to think, my morals are my own.
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woow, getting paid sex in ANOTHER country will be a crime in there? that's pretty fucked up, and I thought europe was more liberal about that...
Anyway I agree with you, if there was a way to be sure that sexual workers weren't being abused, I don't see the problem, it's degrading to some people, but not to all of them, I've personally met some sexual workers who actually enjoy doing it, although all of them were just doing it for a limited amount of time.
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oh no it's the buyer who is doing the illegal act, not the provider. that's how it is in sweden too, everything to protect the whore. which is why i do not like christian moralist who says prostitution in itself is bad.
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I'm sorry, that's what I meant.
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oh no it's the buyer who is doing the illegal act, not the provider. that's how it is in sweden too, everything to protect the whore. which is why i do not like christian moralist who says prostitution in itself is bad.
i find it pretty hard to agree with you when you insist women who are forced into prostitution by circumstance should not be protected and are just "whores".
There's always the argument that no one wants to be a whore, it's dirty it's degrading and only desperate people do it! I don't see this as an argument, a personal nightmare of mine would be to be a cleaner. For me personally cleaning up after someone else would be degrading and I'd have to be desperate to do it. Pretty much the same thing just that prostitution involves sex oh god awful sex. God weeps every time you have sex that doesn't result in a child oh no.
are you kidding me. okay, no one will debate over moral legislaton is the reason it's illegal but you're kidding if you think prostitution is the same as CLEANING A HOUSE. jesus christ. do you know how many prostitutes get raped? and how they can't file because the john will just say he paid for it and she's lying? or the fact that a great deal of the people who use prostitutes use them to fulfill very violent fantasies? this is rarely just sex; it's usually unprotected violent sex without any regard for the health of the woman.
do you think dead prostitutes just happen for a mysterious reason? prostitution isn't a desperate last resort? anyone would prefer to have sex with overly violent men that might rape you or kill you or give you STDs? do you know what degrading means because being paid to be a sex object is pretty close to the dictionary example.
basically you're frothing at the mouth that prostitution CAN BE okay but admit it rarely is and abuse, rape, murder, and infection are pretty much staples of the career at this point and while Penn and Teller can dig up an old guy who just wants to not sleep alone or some burn victim that will never have sex otherwise, many many johns are just violent as shit. if you want someone to say the job of prostitution in a vacuum is okay, sure, it is, if you want to go that hypothetical, but it's a pretty disgusting reality.
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It really depends on where its happening and what establishment is doing the prostitution.
In some cases they are protected by their employers and stuff so if any of the customers do any fucked up shit then they get the boot or whatnot. Its really alot like stripping in some sense. I'm not going to say its OK but it really isn't like these young girls are being picked up in third world countries and raised from childhood to be a meat bag.
It doesn't really work that way anymore in the modern world. Although that probably does happen in some fucked up places you won't see those kinds of girls as much in Japan, Thailand, or Amsterdam. I also heard that prostitutes in some European countries are considered a national resource and get pretty good benefits from their government.
I'm not into prostitution either really, but I don't see a problem with it.
EDIT: Although I agree with what steel's saying is probably true in some cases thats also why you have brothels and hotels you stay at and pay for the girls in. That way there are bouncers and guards to keep an eye out and make sure that shit doesn't happen. Its probably not fool proof but its alot safer than sending a girl out on the streets and I'm sure that condoms are mandatory too. If you're actually going somewhere to get it done and not picking up random street girl.
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well i am saying that prostitutes get abused and that's why it should be illegal but i still don't think prostitution is wrong and im saying whore because it's a proper term, a woman who sells sex is a whore. i never said "just a whore".
i just can't see how prostitution is "wrong". it should not be legal because whores, prostitutes, hookers whatever term you want to use often get abused but i still can't see prostitution as wrong while a lot of people with "high moral standards" just say that prostitution is just that.
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a person who sells sex for money is a prostitute, the word "whore" is a value judgement and i fucking hate it when men throw it around.
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whore's current etymology is much closer to slang; ironically it was a more proper noun than prostitute for some time but as Jamicus said it's mostly used as a value judgement; no newspaper will call women working as prostitutes "whores" after all. also technically no act is wrong if you view it in a vacuum! even murder can be justified if you stretch it enough to include like kevorkian ethics. but in reality I don't think we need to draw the line of "bad prostitution" versus "good prostitution" when the latter is near nonexistent.
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i can't think of a good reason why prostitution shouldn't be legalized and put under strict regulations. medical record checks, on-site testing = no more STDs. people with a history of sexual violence = no access, and so on.
i mean i can already imagine an illegal area of prostitution would just reappear when desperate women who can't meet certain health criteria or can't get hired for whatever reason turn to picking up men on street corners, who also happen to be unable to involve themselves in the legal business due to being on the sex offenders register or having relevant convictions. even saying that though, it's no reason not to legalize and regulate prostitution right now, and then start to deal with the other problems that will arise later because i can't see how legalizing it will do any significant harm, and it could help reduce the damage it does now by whatever small amount. i'm not under any illusions that prostitution is not a desperate business and it will probably always stay that way, but criminalizing people for being involved in it isn't helping.
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i can't think of a good reason why prostitution shouldn't be legalized and put under strict regulations. medical record checks, on-site testing = no more STDs. people with a history of sexual violence = no access, and so on.
i mean i can already imagine an illegal area of prostitution would just reappear when desperate women who can't meet certain health criteria or can't get hired for whatever reason turn to picking up men on street corners, who also happen to be unable to involve themselves in the legal business due to being on the sex offenders register or having relevant convictions. even saying that though, it's no reason not to legalize and regulate prostitution right now, and then start to deal with the other problems that will arise later because i can't see how legalizing it will do any significant harm, and it could help reduce the damage it does now by whatever small amount. i'm not under any illusions that prostitution is not a desperate business and it will probably always stay that way, but criminalizing people for being involved in it isn't helping.
Yes, this is what I've always thought.
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i can't think of a good reason why prostitution shouldn't be legalized and put under strict regulations. medical record checks, on-site testing = no more STDs. people with a history of sexual violence = no access, and so on.
i mean i can already imagine an illegal area of prostitution would just reappear when desperate women who can't meet certain health criteria or can't get hired for whatever reason turn to picking up men on street corners, who also happen to be unable to involve themselves in the legal business due to being on the sex offenders register or having relevant convictions. even saying that though, it's no reason not to legalize and regulate prostitution right now, and then start to deal with the other problems that will arise later because i can't see how legalizing it will do any significant harm, and it could help reduce the damage it does now by whatever small amount. i'm not under any illusions that prostitution is not a desperate business and it will probably always stay that way, but criminalizing people for being involved in it isn't helping.
this is true but I've always thought the libertarian idea of FINALLY A BROTHEL IN EVERY CITY has been pretty rolleyes and doesn't address the fact that the reason prostitution is popular is because of a societal emphasis on women as sex objects and calling it just another business is a bit like saying selling cigarettes is just another business; at the root it is but on some level its pretty fucking unwholesome for everyone involved.
neckbeards you shall not pass.
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I'm against child prostitution and that's all.
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But some of them make a lot of money and taking away their main source of income would not be good for them
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The point is that if it were legal, prostitutes would get abused a LOT less, they would be instances for them to go to in case they needed help, and customers would probably have to show their id's so if they do something bad to them they could get easily arrested. I know that some people do it just because it's their only option, but that doesn't mean that they can't enjoy it, not saying that all of them do, but the ones I've met don't really want to stop doing it.
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Me and my pals are just off down the mustang club to bang some whores.
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It's a great club, they can do what you want, they're like slaves. But you do have to plan everything out in advanced, so there's no real room for improvisation. Like they can wear leather (real leather, do you like leather?) and chains, you can tie them up and they can gag on your cock before you blow it all over their pretty little blue faces.
It's so fun, and the women there feel so empowered that they're using their sexuality to take advantage of men and their money.
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woow, getting paid sex in ANOTHER country will be a crime in there?
Now that I read the whole topic I think it makes sense, I think that law is targeting (maybe indirectly) child sex tourists. So I agree with it.
Now that I read that prostitution is illegal in sweden I think my interpretation does not make sense
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OBJECTIVES: This study examined condom use in legal Nevada brothels. METHODS: Forty female prostitutes in two brothels were interviewed about client resistance to condoms and techniques for facilitating condom use. RESULTS: Of 3290 clients in the previous month, 2.7% (95% confidence interval [CI] = 2.2%,3.4%) were reluctant to use condoms. Of these individuals, 72% ultimately used condoms, while 12% chose nonpenetrative sex without condoms. The remaining 16% left the brothels without services. Condom use rates were markedly lower with nonpaying sex partners (lowers) than with clients. CONCLUSIONS: Brothel prostitutes may be at greater risk for acquiring HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases from lovers than from clients.
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man not that i doubt that but what kind of conclusion is MAY BE AT GREATER RISK FROM LOVERS. what? why did they pull this out of their ass? not one part of what they described said anything about the prostitute's non client partners.
basically I think everyone dislikes how prostitution works now but similarly just saying LEGALIZE IT means you have to enter the realm of hyperbole where society's attitude towards sex is changed (and I don't just mean christian moralism) and a few huge strides of feminism have to take place before we can legitimately say two people would enter basically a MASSEUSE contract instead of what will almost certainly happen. it's one of those positions where it's hard for me to take a gradualistic stance on because I'm not sure even my children would live to see the day prostitutes are treated as business associates by the majority of people.
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I remember watching this documentary where this guy infiltrated this british underground slave ring where they would bring in immigrants from other countries and force them into prositution and things. they filmed this man forcing a woman to give him head and she was crying and choking and then he punched her in the face and pushed her head into the toilet until she was almost unconscious. Things like this are the reason I personally think prostitution should be legal. The more illegal it becomes, the more it is forced into the shady underworld and the less protection these women can get. I've heard about places where it is legal where there are perfectly legitimate prostitution business, the women do it by choice, they get paid a very decent wage, they are protected and aren't forced to do things that they aren't comfortable doing. This shows to me that ideally the best way is to legalize it because it's a case of FRANKENSTEIN'S MONSTER. If you hide it away behind closed doors the problem is only going to get worse.
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I remember watching this documentary where this guy infiltrated this british underground slave ring where they would bring in immigrants from other countries and force them into prositution and things. they filmed this man forcing a woman to give him head and she was crying and choking and then he punched her in the face and pushed her head into the toilet until she was almost unconscious. Things like this are the reason I personally think prostitution should be legal. The more illegal it becomes, the more it is forced into the shady underworld and the less protection these women can get. I've heard about places where it is legal where there are perfectly legitimate prostitution business, the women do it by choice, they get paid a very decent wage, they are protected and aren't forced to do things that they aren't comfortable doing. This shows to me that ideally the best way is to legalize it because it's a case of FRANKENSTEIN'S MONSTER. If you hide it away behind closed doors the problem is only going to get worse.
the problem is, though, if prostitution is legalized, a lot of the stuff you mentioned will not be allowed. inri posted a study about a brothel requiring condom use.
buuuuut unlike abortion, where if made illegal women will still seek them out and it becomes dangerous, many people do use prostitutes in order to fulfill some kind of shady sexual appetites. it can be something as mundane (but still unsafe) as not wearing a condom to donkey punches to rape fantasies and all sorts of shit. this isn't a small number of people either, most prostitutes encounter at least one john who threatens them and many are just raped. if you legalize prostitution, you don't necessarily remove the market for underground prostitution; it just becomes more underground.
legalization protects women to a degree, of course, and it keeps them from being thrown in fucking jail all the time for basically trying to survive. but it won't cut down on violence towards prostitutes; safe johns will meet safe women, but dangerous johns will meet women on the street who can't get into a ranch (let's not forget that in the US legalization does not mean nationalization so if you happen to be a black prostitute but they've already got three sorry sister not good for business) or who might have other things keeping them on the street (such as disease), and the problem will still exist and the whole sexual exploitation issue will be ignored in favor of pundits arguing about MONEY FOR SEX???
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man not that i doubt that but what kind of conclusion is MAY BE AT GREATER RISK FROM LOVERS. what? why did they pull this out of their ass? not one part of what they described said anything about the prostitute's non client partners.
That's just the abstract. The complete article says how like 100% of them used condoms with clients but only 18% used them with "lovers" which is how they concluded that
http://www.ajph.org/cgi/reprint/88/4/643?maxtoshow=&HITS=10&hits=10&RESULTFORMAT=&searchid=1&FIRSTINDEX=0&sortspec=relevance&volume=88&firstpage=643&resourcetype=HWCIT
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Legalising prostitution would definitly reduce some risk factors I believe and also with it legalised it would mean prostitutes could find clients through more conventional means rather than standing at a dark street corner waiting for strangers to call them into their cars.
Like someone else mentioned with it legalised it would mean brothels could be set up without fear of the police which could inturn mean the ones who would organise these events can concentrate on protection for these girls from qualified bouncers ect instead of sneaking around trying to avoid the police.
I would say to those who find such things morally wrong to simply just stay away and it will not effect you in any way.
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man the last year's focus on prostitution in norway has been crazy. especially before the news about BUYING SEX IN FOREIGN COUNTRIES CAN GET YOU CONVICTED IN NORWAY the papers were seriously riddled with stories about the child sex industry in phuket and how old men from norway go there and rape 10 year olds and come back with std's that they spread around norway. it's seriously absolutely ridiculous and only like 2 days before i heard about it i was talking to some friends about how ridiculous the US trade embargo on Cuba is (considering they too can be convicted for buying Cuban wares in another country) and then the government goes ahead and pulls this shit.
fuck norway I'm moving to denmark
edit: i mean fuck, the only other crimes that can get you convicted for committing them in a country where it isn't a crime is like GENOCIDE, TERRORISM and shit like that. what the hell!!
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taking advantage of the situation of a woman who feels she has to commodify her body as a sexual object to make a living.
Do you know what sounds just like that?? Marriage.
And you could also say what kaworu said (women using their sexualiy to get money from men. And it also applies to marriage).
And prostitution is not exclusive to women either.
I just don't believe that legaliztion will suddenly make all the ugliness go away. Like steel said, legalization is not equal to nationalization. Sure there'd be 'safe' brothels, but it won't make sex trafficking go away... It may even make bringing women into the country as sexual indentured servants even more lucrative.
Of course it won't but keeping it illegal is not helping either. It's not making the lives of those who don't want to do it but do it because there is no other option any easier.
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also heh the police in norway are strongly opposed to the law since it's virtually impossible to get anyone convicted for buying sex in another country and it seriously undermines any law authority trying to actually do something about the problem. ridiculous shit!
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prostitution is probably a pretty bad venture but cracking down on it will make it worse. I am sure prostitutes are choosing their job from mcjob #123457 because they would rather do that because it pays better. Similarly, there are prostitutes like the ones that politicians bang that are filthy rich, atleast compared to most of us folks. THe issue here is not prostitution, but why some women have to actually resort to this in the first place.
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I wouldn't look down on a prostitute. I'll just try and get em on the right path man. Unless they looked diseased, I'm sorry I don't play with that.
I can't stand this rapper anymore but,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tSt1uGX9fxk
SOME ONE GOTS TO LOVE EM HOES.
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:shrugs: i always saw prostitution as a pretty awful job but still a job. I.e. i dont make moral judgements about prostitutes because rallying against sexual promiscuity is not a moral priority of mine. It is just kinda bad if you have to suck dicks for a job and being afraid of getting an STD, getting murdered, or raped.
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that's true, I don't support blaming them for their circumstance and putting them in jail. I just don't think that its something a sane society should tolerate and take issue with people who seem to think its just fine and legality would make it safe and fun for everyone.
Why shouldnt a society tolerate it? If a woman has to resort to prostitution is probably because she doesnt thinks there is a better alternativel. prostitution is just going to end when there is a better alternative, otherwise it should just be treated as a symptom.
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that's true, I don't support blaming them for their circumstance and putting them in jail. I just don't think that its something a sane society should tolerate and take issue with people who seem to think its just fine and legality would make it safe and fun for everyone.
Ok so is it any worse than abortion for example?
Marmot it's not going to end it exists since humanity started and will continue to exist in one form or another (ex: marrying a rich old man)
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Marmot it's not going to end it exists since humanity started and will continue to exist in one form or another (ex: marrying a rich old man)
I think there is a possibility it is going to end. I think we will later be forced to choose between a sane society or the possibility of extinction.
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What do you mean by that? Abortion is a safe medical procedure that in no way involves exploitation.
Hahahahhahahah I hope you're kidding! Well, although it does depend on what stage the pregnancy is, it's really weird to see someone who is pro-abortion being against something benign like prostitution.
If a woman (for example) rents herself for a certain amount of money for an hour because she wants to, where is the exploitation in that?
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If a woman (for example) rents herself for a certain amount of money for an hour because she wants to, where is the exploitation in that?
People see it as 'women cant take care of themselves?'.
Alot of sick guys out there so its understandable! But no one has mentioned male prostitution, would that be ok for you?
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How is that any different from getting paid to mow someone's lawn or any other profession?
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I think because mowing a lawn or doing any menial job is quite a different beast from selling your body.
Also I think maybe some of you have kind of a different image of what prostitution is in the real world. It can be pretty fuckin gritty man. I dont have any specific things to back up what I'm saying but I think its a bit of a dirtier reality than what you are imagining.
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I think because mowing a lawn or doing any menial job is quite a different beast from selling your body.
Q: How is it different
A: It's because it's different
Also I think maybe some of you have kind of a different image of what prostitution is in the real world. It can be pretty fuckin gritty man. I dont have any specific things to back up what I'm saying but I think its a bit of a dirtier reality than what you are imagining.
Lawn mowing can also be quite dangerous (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article3428410.ece)
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Q: How is it different
A: It's because it's different
have you considered the reason people aren't justifying how lawn mowing is different from prostitution because it's pretty fucking obvious and you're doing that stupid shit you do in every topic where you pick up on the slightest thing that isn't fully elaborated and harp on it instead of acknowledging that prostitution and law mowing is different and for some odd reason no one ever warns you for trolling.
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I don't really see a point in continuing this discussion with you if you really can't see the difference between the two.
The essence is the same, you could say that "you're selling yourself as an object to mow lawn/lay bricks/pleasure ugly old men" about anything
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I could say the same about you
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There's always the argument that no one wants to be a whore, it's dirty it's degrading and only desperate people do it! I don't see this as an argument, a personal nightmare of mine would be to be a cleaner. For me personally cleaning up after someone else would be degrading and I'd have to be desperate to do it. Pretty much the same thing just that prostitution involves sex oh god awful sex. God weeps every time you have sex that doesn't result in a child oh no. I'm do not like that we still have fucking christian values in our lawbook. It fucking sucks that religion still plays a part in our society because for me it's just a bunch of fucking fairytales. I spit on your values.
My mom works in the local hospital Villa. They call her a "Bio Techie," which is a fancy name for shit-cleaner and soiled-linen-changer. She's also been cleaning houses. Hell, I've even helped her clean houses. But she isn't any whore.
The problem with whoring is that there ARE gritty realities that you just cannot keep from happening. The difference between whoring and lawn mowing is that you're not being stripped naked and beaten to death with a whip while you're doing it (GET your hands OUT of your pants). Unless the government comes up with some crazy plan to spend billions of dollars regulating whoring (government endorsed prostitutes...heh wait, that's our political system already), there's only one way to ensure these people's safety, and that is to do away with the system entirely.
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My mom works in the local hospital Villa. They call her a "Bio Techie," which is a fancy name for shit-cleaner and soiled-linen-changer. She's also been cleaning houses. Hell, I've even helped her clean houses. But she isn't any whore.
The problem with whoring is that there ARE gritty realities that you just cannot keep from happening. The difference between whoring and lawn mowing is that you're not being stripped naked and beaten to death with a whip while you're doing it (GET your hands OUT of your pants). Unless the government comes up with some crazy plan to spend billions of dollars regulating whoring (government endorsed prostitutes...heh wait, that's our political system already), there's only one way to ensure these people's safety, and that is to do away with the system entirely.
What makes you think someone can't strip you naked and beat you to death with a whip while you're mowing lawn?
You guys are ridiculous I give up!
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At least it's obvious that you're joking.
EDIT:
And the religious aspect of it is pretty much this -- that it's wrong to passively allow people to get hurt, and that we should always be doing something to make sure that doesn't happen. A healthy perception of women and conservative relationships pretty much stems from that. But it's not a question of religion as much as it is of people's well-being.
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At least it's obvious that you're joking.
EDIT:
And the religious aspect of it is pretty much this -- that it's wrong to passively allow people to get hurt, and that we should always be doing something to make sure that doesn't happen. A healthy perception of women and conservative relationships pretty much stems from that. But it's not a question of religion as much as it is of people's well-being.
in my experience religion does not have a healthy perception of women.
but maybe im just undereducated and does not know enough of religion.
i really have to read the bible some day.
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there's only one way to ensure these people's safety, and that is to do away with the system entirely.
man I feel like this is some kind of HIGH SCHOOL DISCUSSION SESSION because come on. First off, I seriously doubt anyone at gw actually know anything at all about the prostitution environment (and especially in foreign countries, since especially the US members seem to be extremely keen on elaborating on how it is completely horrible not taking into account it works different in other countries; hell, we even have prostitute labour unions here that ensure the rights, wages and working times of prostitutes), and thus the entire discussion is just WORDS. The whole topic seems to be so fantastically naïve that it borders kindergarten queries about how people should treach each other.
Secondly, anyone that seriously believes that prohibition will make prostitution go away, or reduce it to such a degree that it weighs more than the negative consequences driving the girls further into the shade of society (like for instance, how prostitutes are killed off during violent sex etc), needs to understand they're completely misinterpreting the situation.
I think the biggest issue is that members here seem to think there is a universality to prostitution that rings true. It should go without saying that prostitution in Norway, where ghettos are non-existant, where crime is low, where sex is generally considered completely neutral as far as moral is concerned and where prostitutes are organised and are members of labour unions that look after their rights, the problems associated with prostitution are very different than in the US, where the situation is the extreme opposite... just as you'd expect prostitution in countries like Afghanistan to be even worse. In Afghanistan, a prostitute that reports on violence would be stoned. In USA, a prostitute that reports on violence would be jailed. In Norway, a prostitute that reports on violence would lead to the offender getting arrested.
I don't really care about prostitution, though I do believe the passing of a law that can get you arrested for comitting the crime in another country is ridiculous, but I don't think it's very healthy or internationalized to discuss the issues when everyone seems to base their opinions solely on their own country, and applying the same logic to other countries where the situation is different.
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The sex trade is one of the oldest trades out there and will never go away, so you might aswell legalize it.
I've talked to some prostitutes before when walking down the ghetto to the best chinese restaurant in Edmonton, of course i've only talked to a couple when my dad was with me doing more of the talking so I said few. Most of em' enjoyed the chat or were surprised at us just wanting to talk. Which flipped my initial view of them around.
Unfortunently where I live now the young people have a very skewed view of prostitutes around here. Particularly the fact that they think that throwing money at them for sex is all that they're good for, and talking to em' ain't free either. They call me an idiot for not gettin' the ropes that all prostitutes are not like typical human beings, and it isn't worth talking to them because you apparently gotta pay to talk to them (which tells me they're dicks towards them, which I initially geussed). This is worse then young people in the city, since the ones here collectively agree to the idea.
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man I feel like this is some kind of HIGH SCHOOL DISCUSSION SESSION because come on. First off, I seriously doubt anyone at gw actually know anything at all about the prostitution environment (and especially in foreign countries, since especially the US members seem to be extremely keen on elaborating on how it is completely horrible not taking into account it works different in other countries; hell, we even have prostitute labour unions here that ensure the rights, wages and working times of prostitutes), and thus the entire discussion is just WORDS. The whole topic seems to be so fantastically naïve that it borders kindergarten queries about how people should treach each other.
Secondly, anyone that seriously believes that prohibition will make prostitution go away, or reduce it to such a degree that it weighs more than the negative consequences driving the girls further into the shade of society (like for instance, how prostitutes are killed off during violent sex etc), needs to understand they're completely misinterpreting the situation.
I think the biggest issue is that members here seem to think there is a universality to prostitution that rings true. It should go without saying that prostitution in Norway, where ghettos are non-existant, where crime is low, where sex is generally considered completely neutral as far as moral is concerned and where prostitutes are organised and are members of labour unions that look after their rights, the problems associated with prostitution are very different than in the US, where the situation is the extreme opposite... just as you'd expect prostitution in countries like Afghanistan to be even worse. In Afghanistan, a prostitute that reports on violence would be stoned. In USA, a prostitute that reports on violence would be jailed. In Norway, a prostitute that reports on violence would lead to the offender getting arrested.
I don't really care about prostitution, though I do believe the passing of a law that can get you arrested for comitting the crime in another country is ridiculous, but I don't think it's very healthy or internationalized to discuss the issues when everyone seems to base their opinions solely on their own country, and applying the same logic to other countries where the situation is different.
I was pretty much basing my assumptions on what happens in the US and in the Philippines, where being a prostitute is actually dangerous. If prostitution is safe for everyone in your country, more power to you. If the prostitutes' rights are ensured and they have legal power, then there's no reason to worry about this. But there's got to be a reason why it's suddenly illegal, and I'm having trouble believing that it's because your governments've suddenly turned religious.
You do have an interesting point though -- the different standards of each country is definitely a factor in how we look at this problem. What's more, it might just be true that making freedoms like this illegal CONTRIBUTES to social violence.
Take marijuana in the United States for example. We've got the mexicans south of the border killing each other trying to get it to us because there's a black market for it. On top of that, we've got gangs killing people to distribute it to buyers. If, all the sudden, you could buy marijuana at the frigging grocery store, then this becomes very stupid. Same goes for prostitution. If it were a normal, everyday thing, like MOWING LAWNS, then everything's fine and dandy -- people are just doing their jobs. Also, crimes like rape would actually lessen because prostitution would act as a pressure valve for those social behaviors.
But you've got to draw the line somewhere. The reason why crimes like ROBBERY and MURDER are illegal is because people are harmed. And if people are being harmed by any crime, then we've got to make it illegal. So i'd really like to see the reasoning behind why Norway and Sweden have suddenly made prostitution illegal.
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the reason it's illegal is mostly linked to trafficking... which imo should be handled more as a KIDNAPPING & SLAVERY issue than a PROSTITUTION issue but whatever.
but the politicians seem to know trafficking is fought by making prostitution illegal.
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Politics is so great. Maybe it's because they don't want to look bad. They look good fighting prostitution, that's how they get their votes; they don't actually need to address the problem. Oh wait, this is just me looking at another country through American standards.
Yeah, I don't know. They're going to waste more money using the police force to arrest prostitutes than if they used a bunch of detectives to find the actual traffickers.
So anyways, how do they find out that you've screwed a Thai prostitute? Sure it's illegal. It's also illegal for me to drink (which is also another stupid thing, drinking age), but they wouldn't know squat if I go overseas.
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I dont feel strongly about whether or not people who pay prostitutes should be considered criminals, but considering the prostitutes themselves as criminals is pretty dumb in my opinion. Are prostitutes actually fined or jailed out there? Or is it just the people paying them?