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General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: last life on December 12, 2008, 09:40:08 pm

Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: last life on December 12, 2008, 09:40:08 pm
http://www.google.com/hostednews/ap/article/ALeqM5hOJuFJaHKzesQ2L6lRnfBKvHouiAD950OQ2O0


I was surprised there wasn't already a topic about this because this is pretty important...

Anyways, in short, some police basically shot a 15 year old kid in cold blood in Greece (according to witnesses), which trigged protests all over Greece.  Of course the protests are more related to the Greek government policy in general rather than just this isolated incident.  Oh man, I have to go so I can't say more...  I'll post more later maybe.

Pictures:
http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=el&article_id=933717
http://athens.indymedia.org/front.php3?lang=en&article_id=933804
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Farren on December 12, 2008, 10:37:02 pm
I don't agree with the violence but I guess with these kinds of events sometimes that can't be helped. At least they're making their voices known and I commend them for that.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: ase on December 13, 2008, 03:38:03 am
hahaha i can just picture fatty overturning some cars with a bunch of people on the street....... and not really knowing why
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Ryan on December 13, 2008, 05:46:22 am
my.. my people. :(

stay strong fatty. keep the revolution going.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: last life on December 13, 2008, 08:08:59 am
http://libcom.org/news/photos-published-greek-policefascist-collaboration-10122008
http://garizo.blogspot.com/2008/12/neo-fascists-side-by-side-with-police.html

Quote
In accompanying notes, the blogger said: "The police are using neo-fascists and policemen in plain clothes, with rocks and sticks, pretending to be demonstrators who are targeting either the demonstrators or vandalizing small shops and houses, trying to divert the climate and scare off the everyday citizens.

"The pictures are from Patra city, where Policemen in plain clothes and Neo Fascists were clashing with demonstrators AND caught vandalizing small shops in the city. This was confirmed this morning by the Mayor of city of Patra, this morning on a major TV channel (Alpha)."
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Farren on December 13, 2008, 09:13:00 am
I just remembered I got a buddy that caught a ship a few months ago in Greece and he said he was supposed to come home today but he didn't.
I hope not, but this might actually have something to do with it... The ship he was on hopped around alot between a few countries though but I hope they didn't drop him off in the middle of that shit.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: fatty on December 13, 2008, 11:30:52 am
A bunch of people in my town started destroying the glass doors in every bank they encountered. Oh and the local nazi  group members started snitching everybody that goes to the protests so that they mark them as "unclean leftwings"



I FUCKING HATE THIS PLACE.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Hundley on December 13, 2008, 12:45:47 pm
hey apart from HEY WE HACKED YOUR HARDON COLLIDER JERKS i think this is the first time greece has made world news in 2300 years. keep it up guys!!! you'll have the money to invade turkey one of these days
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: the_bub_from_the_pit on December 13, 2008, 03:29:07 pm
hey apart from HEY WE HACKED YOUR HARDON COLLIDER JERKS i think this is the first time greece has made world news in 2300 years. keep it up guys!!! you'll have the money to invade turkey one of these days

nah man, their trees burn every fucking year
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: datamanc3r on December 13, 2008, 03:45:45 pm
I know a kid was shot. I know that's bad. But I still don't see how you can justify running around and destroying your city because of that. It's not going to work. Eventually it's all going to peter out and you'll have to clean up. An insurrection? I think they forget who has GUNS.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: fatty on December 13, 2008, 10:21:04 pm
hey apart from HEY WE HACKED YOUR HARDON COLLIDER JERKS i think this is the first time greece has made world news in 2300 years. keep it up guys!!! you'll have the money to invade turkey one of these days

woah i just found out about this



also the neo-fascists actually still want greece to wage war against turkey and pretty much every country that shares its borders with ours


oh and reclaim cyprus ofcourse

Most, if not all, of the Golden Dawn(the greek nationalist neo-fascists) have some really BIZARRE ideas. I mean, not just outright stupid and racist/hateful but I heard a guy say something across the lines of "Meh, can you really fall in love with an Albanian chick?". Also, fun fact, I tried pointing out that he was a racist douche and everyone in the room jumped on me for denying his freedom of opinion. BOY, THIS COUNTRY IS FUCKED  :fogetsmile:
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: pburn on December 13, 2008, 10:37:12 pm
Is it just me or would this make a really good movie?
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: fatty on December 13, 2008, 10:41:15 pm
Is it just me or would this make a really good movie?
I have no idea but you should try it out! It'd definitely give you credit in the Greek media.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Goddamn Batman on December 14, 2008, 03:27:53 am
woah i just found out about this



also the neo-fascists actually still want greece to wage war against turkey and pretty much every country that shares its borders with ours


The failure of the colonels has yet to catch up with those types.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Hundley on December 15, 2008, 05:47:38 am
Is it just me or would this make a really good movie?
just you
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 20, 2008, 07:25:16 pm
I know a kid was shot. I know that's bad. But I still don't see how you can justify running around and destroying your city because of that. It's not going to work. Eventually it's all going to peter out and you'll have to clean up. An insurrection? I think they forget who has GUNS.

Change will not come from above.

Mao also said that power comes through the barrel of a gun (whatever you think about mao he's essentially 100% correct).

Name me a succesful attempt at massive change/revolution that did not involve violence, you cannot because violence is literally the only way for change to occur. This is the problem with gradualists, gradualism never works.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Mince Wobley on December 20, 2008, 07:27:57 pm


Name me a succesful attempt at massive change/revolution that did not involve violence, you cannot because violence is literally the only way for change to occur. This is the problem with gradualists, gradualism never works.

Indian independence movement
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 20, 2008, 07:28:08 pm
Also i'm not defending the second ammendment or anything, the people who flaunt their second ammendment rights are the people who would stand no chance against an imperialist army/organized police. Only dedicated party paramilitary groups (like the revolutionaries in china in the 20's, russia in the teens, and elsewhere around the globe) stand a chance against a dedicated military group.

The second ammendment kind of blows!!!
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 20, 2008, 07:31:28 pm
Indian independence movement

This isn't true whatsoever and it's pretty laughable.

Ghandi's movement was a faction in india, there was violent insurrection all over the country especially during the world wars. The only reason ghandi's movement is given the credit it has is the same reason why Martin Luther King is given most of the credit for the civil rights movement and the Black Panthers are not: It's revisionist history by the elites who were in control to make the whole movement look better.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 20, 2008, 07:32:42 pm
HEY LOOK WERE ALL BUDS I MEAN YOU TECHNICALLY HAVE "FREEDOM" AS LONG AS YOU SHUT YOUR MOUTHS AND WORK FOR VERY LITTLE MONEY AND LIVE IN TERRIBLE CONDITIONS

SEE HOW AWESOME NONVIOLENT RESISTANCE IS? WERE COOL GUYS TOO
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Ryan on December 20, 2008, 08:10:14 pm
Quote
The only reason ghandi's movement is given the credit it has is the same reason why Martin Luther King is given most of the credit for the civil rights movement and the Black Panthers are not: It's revisionist history by the elites who were in control to make the whole movement look better.

i don't know shit about the Indian independence movement but as far as the civil rights movement MLK was by far the most effective and definitely deserves the credit he gets.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Ryan on December 20, 2008, 08:16:19 pm
This isn't true whatsoever and it's pretty laughable.

Ghandi's movement was a faction in india, there was violent insurrection all over the country especially during the world wars. The only reason ghandi's movement is given the credit it has is the same reason why Martin Luther King is given most of the credit for the civil rights movement and the Black Panthers are not: It's revisionist history by the elites who were in control to make the whole movement look better.

jesus christ
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 21, 2008, 03:47:04 am
jesus christ

Yeah go ahead and not post anything relevant.

The fact of the matter is the black panthers and other antagonist black groups put more fear into the people in power than nonviolent protesters.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: im_so_tired on December 21, 2008, 09:52:53 am
so truth what were you up to in the civil rights movement?
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 22, 2008, 09:58:51 pm
so truth what were you up to in the civil rights movement?

uh hello i was a twinkle in your eye  :sport:
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on December 22, 2008, 10:33:01 pm
man you're very wrong. just like people who know about the civil rights movement here know about Malcolm X and King, people in India know Gandhi and Subash Chandra Bose. Bose was a nazi btw, and is a national hero.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Chet_Roscoe on December 22, 2008, 11:51:19 pm
this sounds like something from that V movie with the guy in the mask. :o do europeans do this kind of thing often?
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 23, 2008, 05:44:25 am
man you're very wrong. just like people who know about the civil rights movement here know about Malcolm X and King, people in India know Gandhi and Subash Chandra Bose. Bose was a nazi btw, and is a national hero.

That's my whole point, the narrative is pushed by the wealthy and the ones in power, it is in their best interest to push nonviolent resistance like Ghandi and King. Also it's kind of laughable to call Malcolm and Bose nonviolent resistance, especially Bose who led a military coup!

What do you think was more influential in getting the civil rights act passed, the montgomery bus boycotts or the montgomery riots?
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 23, 2008, 05:45:46 am
also bose wasn't a nazi, bose supported all of the governments that were fighting great britain.

The Japanese were allied with the axis in world war two (and Bose) does that make them nazis?

Bose was opportunistic and saw a country who was fighting his enemy the english empire. Calling Bose a nazi is unfair and also a tactic used to demonize him and his method of resistance.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Ryan on December 23, 2008, 05:55:05 am
Quote
What do you think was more influential in getting the civil rights act passed, the montgomery bus boycotts or the montgomery riots?

they're not really comparable. the montgomery bus boycotts happened way before the riots and were a catalyst for the race riots during the 60s.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: datamanc3r on December 23, 2008, 06:38:07 am
At any rate, I don't see how the more violent you are the more 'right' your cause is.

Yeah, violence is effective. French revolution. But it's definitely not the best way to enact change. There's a lot of room for corruption in whatever regimes emerge, so you never really meet the ideals you fought for. Thousands of people die, and it doesn't seem worth it. I know you see our current governments as elitist. And they are, to some extent. But peaceful concessions still have to be made with the middle and lower classes.

In this case, I really don't know. This is from the LOLAMERIKA viewpoint, and I really don't know what's up with Greece -- if people are actually being oppressed. But from my viewpoint, it seems pretty extreme.

Anyway, in answer to your question, I think democracies today are testament to a nonviolent transfer of power. I think more people died on Black Friday than in Barack Obama's election process. And, for semantics' sake, historically there was the Glorious Revolution (which threatened violence and probably doesn't count).
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Boulvae on December 23, 2008, 07:35:50 am
Canada, and now Ireland are the only two I can name off the top of my head that was a nonviolent transfer of power. The U.S. pretty much took up arms and went to war with Britain, they also were extremely violent to the Loyalists (tar and feathers). So they wouldn't qualify as a good example.

Ireland might not be a good example either because Ireland was in a civil war which split it (loyalties to Britain is what the war was about), with now Ireland and Scotland as the result.

Unless your talking about elections...
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Bled on December 23, 2008, 08:36:38 am
Quote
In accompanying notes, the blogger said: "The police are using neo-fascists and policemen in plain clothes, with rocks and sticks, pretending to be demonstrators who are targeting either the demonstrators or vandalizing small shops and houses, trying to divert the climate and scare off the everyday citizens.

Neo-Nazi candy hunt!

Also this sounds a lot like what the southeastern United States would be like if americans had BALLS.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: datamanc3r on December 23, 2008, 05:17:31 pm
Canada, and now Ireland are the only two I can name off the top of my head that was a nonviolent transfer of power. The U.S. pretty much took up arms and went to war with Britain, they also were extremely violent to the Loyalists (tar and feathers). So they wouldn't qualify as a good example.

Ireland might not be a good example either because Ireland was in a civil war which split it (loyalties to Britain is what the war was about), with now Ireland and Scotland as the result.

Unless your talking about elections...
I was, but you make a valid point. It'd be hard to justify democracy today in the sense that we now have a peaceful (albeit flawed) election process when you see that it's founded by the Revolutionary War....it's like justifying communism with the Bolshevik revolution. The end never really justifies the means. However, i think  the need for violence is outdated and that peaceful transfers of power are possible today. Greece uses a parliament. Instead of going apeshit and shooting up the town, why not vote?

Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: last life on December 25, 2008, 12:02:29 am
They're anarchists.  They don't want a "representative" government.  They don't want centralized power!

It seems like these days no one even knows what Anarchism even is... ...or even that it exists.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Marmot on December 25, 2008, 01:27:46 am
i am the ghost of mikhail bakunin
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 25, 2008, 05:25:10 am
Canada, and now Ireland are the only two I can name off the top of my head that was a nonviolent transfer of power. The U.S. pretty much took up arms and went to war with Britain, they also were extremely violent to the Loyalists (tar and feathers). So they wouldn't qualify as a good example.

Ireland might not be a good example either because Ireland was in a civil war which split it (loyalties to Britain is what the war was about), with now Ireland and Scotland as the result.

Unless your talking about elections...

Ireland is the worst fucking example as the troubles were the main reason for any freedoms being passed (small at a time, and only expanded due to even worse violence).

Canada i'm not aware of but the british empire was declining/there's the exception that proves every rule.

Quote
At any rate, I don't see how the more violent you are the more 'right' your cause is.

Yeah, violence is effective. French revolution. But it's definitely not the best way to enact change. There's a lot of room for corruption in whatever regimes emerge, so you never really meet the ideals you fought for. Thousands of people die, and it doesn't seem worth it. I know you see our current governments as elitist. And they are, to some extent. But peaceful concessions still have to be made with the middle and lower classes.

In this case, I really don't know. This is from the LOLAMERIKA viewpoint, and I really don't know what's up with Greece -- if people are actually being oppressed. But from my viewpoint, it seems pretty extreme.

Anyway, in answer to your question, I think democracies today are testament to a nonviolent transfer of power. I think more people died on Black Friday than in Barack Obama's election process. And, for semantics' sake, historically there was the Glorious Revolution (which threatened violence and probably doesn't count).

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make but ok. You say that violence isn't the best way to enact change, then what is the best way? You really don't think that Barack Obama is anything more than incremental change do you? I'll admit I was very excited by his candidacy and was willing to overlook his foreign policy and the fact that he's a capitalist because at the time he was promising labor reform, and (at least the most other than RON PAUL...................) end to imperialism. However I was just as naieve as you are now. Obama has put centrists and zionists in places of great power in his cabinet. He wants to ramp up aggression in Afghanistan, is planning on ignoring the employee free choice act, and his vice president was a member of project for a new american century.

Marx said that between real contraries (capital and labor) there can be no common ground, no compromise (paraphrasing). The idea that you can just live and let live with the people who own the capital and whose whole means of living is exploiting those less fortunate is ridiculous. The wealthy will never give up their unequitable relationship with the working poor without a fight. Arguing that making small gains is the way to go are just completely ignoring reality. For every moment you have incremental victories a child goes hungry, a woman is discriminated at work, and the prole has even more of his earned capital, the value he produces from his work extracted from him. He is now poorer from having what is his by right of his labor taken from him. Every day this is allowed to go on is a failure on the part of every one of us. To say that it's okay because WE'RE PULLING OUT OF IRAQ IN 18 MONTHS is probably one of the dumbest arguments i've ever heard. Let's not forget that marx also was a believer in the heglian thought that progress in history is only made through conflict. I've been arguing this entire thread that true change never happens unless it is through violent conflict, other than off base examples like Canada (which I'm sure isn't even completely true), nobody has made a coherant argument that nonviolent resistance solves anything. For every Martin Luther King you have the black panthers and nation of islam, for every ghandi you have a bose.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Mince Wobley on December 25, 2008, 05:37:54 am
Truth... while you wrote that a child died of AIDS. Think about it.

--

By the way, true anarchy does exist. There is a tribe called Arawete (they do not call themselves that by the way) and they just do whatever they want. Like, if someone says "Lets go to the mall" (it's an example, they do not have malls) than either everyone goes to the mall or nobody does anything.

And they think it brings bad luck to say their own names, so if you ask someone "What is your name?" someone else will answer for him/her. They're quite interesting.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Praetorian on December 26, 2008, 11:59:47 pm
I see you're still waiting for a significant non-violent revolution...How about when the kings of Rome were overthrown? It is arguably one of the most important revolutions in history.

Tarquinius Superbus and the rest of the ruling class were kind of just kicked out of office and exiled.

Yeah, that doesn't really add to the discussion at all, but I felt it needed to be said.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Lars on December 27, 2008, 12:47:54 am
Name me a succesful attempt at massive change/revolution that did not involve violence, you cannot because violence is literally the only way for change to occur. This is the problem with gradualists, gradualism never works.
Oh hi, my country went from colony to a sovereign nation without a single bullet fired, but I guess it's easy to disregard it as a minor change/revolution with your definition of massive pending (assuming it might encompass a country that's been a colony for nearly 600 years under two different colonial powers then maybe it'll pass through the eye of your needle?).

Also Truth you should stop being so loud and angry it looks pretty bad. I guess you are still a fat, ugly nerd tho so maybe I can look over it but courtesy is a feat never too late to learn no matter the excuse :)

Cheerio!
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Ryan on December 27, 2008, 01:46:38 am
Quote
Also Truth you should stop being so loud and angry it looks pretty bad. I guess you are still a fat, ugly nerd tho so maybe I can look over it but courtesy is a feat never too late to learn no matter the excuse

that's pretty mean, dude!
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 27, 2008, 05:29:36 am
Oh hi, my country went from colony to a sovereign nation without a single bullet fired, but I guess it's easy to disregard it as a minor change/revolution with your definition of massive pending (assuming it might encompass a country that's been a colony for nearly 600 years under two different colonial powers then maybe it'll pass through the eye of your needle?).

Also Truth you should stop being so loud and angry it looks pretty bad. I guess you are still a fat, ugly nerd tho so maybe I can look over it but courtesy is a feat never too late to learn no matter the excuse :)

Cheerio!

Without a single bullet fired? So the war against England that forced the Danish to give norway up had nothing to do with it becoming a sovereign nation? Also if i'm not mistaken Norway is still a monarchy to this day. I think you've missed the entire point lars.

Your idea that I am being "loud and angry" and that it "looks bad" are pretty hilarious as well! I suppose for a person like yourself who is a well off crypto-fascist the current system is fine but for many around the world capitalism is not fine, it is fundamentally destructive to their very being. Saying that a person shouldn't be angry about that is absurd. And you end with a personal attack which has literally nothing to do with the thread!!! Thanks Lars you're a great guy!!!!!!!!!!
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Mince Wobley on December 27, 2008, 05:34:49 am
But what is the point of being angry about it if it doesn't change anything at all. You're just being angry for nothing, for free.
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Lars on December 27, 2008, 04:17:20 pm
Without a single bullet fired? So the war against England that forced the Danish to give norway up had nothing to do with it becoming a sovereign nation?
Which marked the transfer of Norway as a colony of Denmark to being one of Sweden.

Also if i'm not mistaken Norway is still a monarchy to this day. I think you've missed the entire point lars.
The monarchy is symbolic.


also yes anger on the internet: highway to freedom & prosperity (insert Karl Marx quote)
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: Artis Leon Ivey Jr on December 27, 2008, 04:21:51 pm
That's my whole point, the narrative is pushed by the wealthy and the ones in power, it is in their best interest to push nonviolent resistance like Ghandi and King. Also it's kind of laughable to call Malcolm and Bose nonviolent resistance, especially Bose who led a military coup!

What do you think was more influential in getting the civil rights act passed, the montgomery bus boycotts or the montgomery riots?

what. I never said they were non violent. I took issue with the fact you think the poor people of india only know gandhi or some shit. nope, they know bose just as well! I'm not sure why you think the government "endorses" non-violent protest. the government endorses CHANGE WITHIN SYSTEM, not non-violence; Gandhi's salt marches were embarassing to them, why would they say IM PRO THAT???

I think you are confusing internal change with non violent resistance, the government is anti-resistance of any kind and if anything non-violent stuff is more embarassing on a global scale because invariably the government loses patience and horsewhips a black guy and the french say HOHO AMERICANS!!!
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: The Truth on December 27, 2008, 11:05:41 pm
what. I never said they were non violent. I took issue with the fact you think the poor people of india only know gandhi or some shit. nope, they know bose just as well! I'm not sure why you think the government "endorses" non-violent protest. the government endorses CHANGE WITHIN SYSTEM, not non-violence; Gandhi's salt marches were embarassing to them, why would they say IM PRO THAT???

I think you are confusing internal change with non violent resistance, the government is anti-resistance of any kind and if anything non-violent stuff is more embarassing on a global scale because invariably the government loses patience and horsewhips a black guy and the french say HOHO AMERICANS!!!

This is true however I was sort of quantifying internal change and non violent resistance as a whole package as neither really succesfully works without the threat of violence from a group. (As the bose analogy showed)
Title: Massive Greek Protests Spark Solidarty Protests Across Europe
Post by: last life on December 28, 2008, 12:22:59 am
Well, after the fact, governments, and power-centers-whatever, co-opt sources of non-violent change and distort their image to make it seem like they wanted to change the system to the current one, so as to prevent dissent.  This kinda shit definitely happens all the time with MLK, and Gandhi also!  Of course they don't support while it's happening, later they just try to be on the same side as the non-violent protesters.

It's harder to do that with violent protesters.