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General Category => General Talk => Topic started by: datamanc3r on January 03, 2009, 11:33:46 am

Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: datamanc3r on January 03, 2009, 11:33:46 am
Resolved: That, by 2040, the federal government should mandate that all new passenger vehicles and light trucks be powered by alternative fuels.


Resolution Analysis



This debate is an uphill battle for the negative, and knowing my luck, I'll get the negative each and every round. This res = suck.

Aff arguments

The affirmative basically aims to say that by 2040, the federal gov't ought to make sure that all new passenger cars are run by alternatives. For you government geeks out there, yes, the gov in America is able to do that thanks to the Commerce Clause, which gives Congress the power to make law over just about everything that moves.


I'ma think of more arguments later because it's 3:30 in the morning and I'm dipshit tired. Then I'll post my neg args. A big thing for the neg is the oil in the Colorado Rockies, which alone is projected to be able to run the US's transportation needs for the next 150 years or something according to my partner (translation: I'll have to look into it). It'd be pretty awesome for us if we become the next Saudi Arabia. Big exporter of oil. I've also heard that Canada has oil that you can simply mill from the sand. If you guys export that to us, then we don't need to rely on Saudi Arabia...so that aff argument is moot. I'll return to this later.

Anyway, what's your guys' take on these arguments, or on alternative fuels in general?
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Vesper on January 03, 2009, 12:18:39 pm
Don't worry the free market will deal with it.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: datamanc3r on January 03, 2009, 08:15:40 pm
Nice sarcasm.

I'd say that if automakers wanted government bailouts, the government could've tacked on a condition saying that from now on they'll need to make alternatively fueled cars. Perfect timing, y'see?

Anyway, I'll agree with you there. There are a number of reasons why the 'free market' isn't picking up on alternatives. For one, there isn't a market for it. If this res hypothetically passes, there will suddenly be cars for an alternatively fueled infrastructure to develop. But we don't have that now. Two, oil companies are pretty powerful lobbies. Legislation mostly favors oil. And, come election time, oil money makes a fat warchest. Politicians love oil.

Basically, in order for alternatives to be viable, we need to A.) Not accept 'free' money, and B.) Mandate that our entire infrastructure be changed, which although makes money in the long run, costs billions of dollars in the short run. "A" will never happen. Money is politicians' lifeblood, and alternatives will never raise enough money to lobby politicians as effectively as the oil companies do (there is no market for them in the first place). And "B" pretty much depends on whether "A" passes. Money rules politicians. They're not going to vote against their constituencies. So we're fucked.

At any rate, I'm personally more aff than neg. Which is why arguing the neg is going to SUCK (I have to argue both).
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Mr. Actionist on January 03, 2009, 11:49:00 pm
I thought the reason people were so against ethanol was because they thought it would rape their car engines. Seems to be the issue in Australia, anyway.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Boulvae on January 04, 2009, 12:17:24 am
Here in Canada Biofuel is the main big thing driving our prices up in both groceries and anything involving food. Since more areas are reserved for Biofuel less are reserved for food, also should we theoretically completely move on to Biofuel what would end up happening is we'd be using said fuel to harvest the source of said fuel which would make our emissions worse.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: datamanc3r on January 04, 2009, 03:01:27 am
I don't think your cars can run entirely on ethanol. The reason why you mix it with gasoline is because ethanol won't ignite at colder temperatures. But at any rate, I'd like to see how successful algae-based fuels become. It'll allow us to eat cheaper!

I thought the reason people were so against ethanol was because they thought it would rape their car engines. Seems to be the issue in Australia, anyway.
Now obviously, it depends on the engine. Unfortunately, because I don't know too much about engines, I don't know whether conventionally powered engines (gasoline, diesel) can be run by ethanol, but it sounds like a bad idea. Are your engines flex-fuel engines?
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Mr. Actionist on January 04, 2009, 04:23:54 am
I honestly have no idea. We have a gas-ethanol blend of petrol called e10 (10% ethanol) that's currently being used as well as regular petrol, but I have no idea how many people are using it, despite it being slightly cheaper.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Beasley on January 04, 2009, 05:35:03 am
there is enough renewable, clean energy in the world to last us forever. there is no excuse for anyone to not endorse it. rumors about the exaggerated "weakness" of air, solar, and tide energy are false! energy is as common as air, and it's amazing we've found a way to somehow convince the public that these much more destructive, weaker, and unreplenishable sources of energy are somehow the only practical ones and worst of all that we should be paying for it. one state of wind air could charge the entire nations battery's. oil and gas companys saturate the united states government with lobbyists and the over-representation is rampant. thankfully, this could all go way. public support grows stronger heh!

no one should/needs to live without heat or energy.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: the_hoodie on January 04, 2009, 06:12:29 am
Wow, negative is really difficult to argue for this resolution and the wording doesn't help you at all either. Basically what you said in your second post is essentially what your arguments have to be. You don't have to say that the alternative sources are bad, and in fact, you should agree with your opponents on that note, but you simply have to argue that it is not a viable option for America.

Money's a big part, as you have said, because it's very important to government that they have it, and big oil is a large provider of that.

As for the other arguments, I'd need to do a bit more research to figure something out. As I said, it's a very difficult side to aruge, but feasbility is your best option here.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: datamanc3r on January 04, 2009, 09:51:14 am
I'm pretty much going to run feasibility, esp. noting how expensive alternatively fueled cars are today. If gasoline over time were to be eliminated, and people were forced to buy these newer cars, they'd have a lot of trouble paying them off. This has severe economic ramifications. My dad's having trouble just paying off his Toyota Corolla. If he had to pay any more, he'd go broke and he'd be without a car to get to work. On a massive scale, this means less money for everyone...especially for poorer people.

I've asked someone to do a little detective work on just how expensive this'd be.


The Prius is your standard alternative fuel car. And the Corolla is a comparable car to the Prius. Assuming that gas is a consistent $4 per gallon, it takes 6 years to make up the difference -- even if these cars are more fuel efficient, they are too expensive! We're not even factoring repairs, etc. People need cars to get to work. And they need money to spend. Thus, forcing people to essentially pay more for their transportation is bad and intrusive policy.

Now, to impact that out even further, because everyone has less money, less money goes to government, and therefore less to education, less to infrastructure, less to everything. And if I wanted to go Republican all over my opponent's ass, I'd say that to make up this difference, the government would have to tax more, and people would have even LESS money to buy stuff...LESS money to buy CARS in the first place!

...Heh...that's assuming that gasoline won't be available for older cars (they'd just use older cars then)...and that alternatively fueled cars stay more expensive than conventionally fueled ones (in 30 years technology WILL get better)...

I could also argue a transition-cost argument -- the idea that it'd cost too much to implement -- but it won't be as powerful as joe the plumber not being able to get to work.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Boulvae on January 04, 2009, 03:04:29 pm
Well that pay-off problem has never really gone away for Americans, Canadians don't seem to have that much of a problem. But then again Americans and Canadians have very, very different views of spending so I can't really say.

However they can't scrap all the older cars, because some (or almost all) cars use chemicals which are for all thoughts and purposes are non-recyclable (the chemicals are just reused for cars that use the chemicals).
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Soulmman on January 04, 2009, 03:15:49 pm
It's probably more like 2050, but if anything I'd suggest a more proper research in solar energy and Fusion energy.

Fusion energy is the same processes that go on inside the sun, Deuterium and Tritium gets mixed at a temperature of 200 million degrees celsius and can extrude incredible amounts of energy from one small handfull of litium. Rumour is, however, that some huge oil companies bought up that information and stockpiled it so that it wouldn't get used or researched in.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: idiot kid on January 05, 2009, 01:18:41 am
I've asked someone to do a little detective work on just how expensive this'd be.

The Prius is your standard alternative fuel car. And the Corolla is a comparable car to the Prius. Assuming that gas is a consistent $4 per gallon, it takes 6 years to make up the difference --

wait where the fuck is gas $4 a gallon, i am pretty sure it has been under $3 for like a year and presently under $2
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: the_hoodie on January 05, 2009, 04:43:50 am
Well, sounds like a have pretty solid arugments for both sides. Good luck!

When's the debate, by the way?
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Kobra108 on January 05, 2009, 01:21:59 pm
2040? Try 2010 and I might support it.

Here's a short list of alternative energy ideas off the top of my head:
+ Geothermal (A self-contained system would be ideal here.)
+ Solar (A blog post on Pharyngula mentioned a new material that converts 99% of the sun's energy into electricity)
+ Wind
+ Tidal
+ Biofuels
+ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perepiteia <- I wish

wait where the fuck is gas $4 a gallon, i am pretty sure it has been under $3 for like a year and presently under $2
No, it was ~$4.30 a gallon in North Fort Myers, FL during July 2008. That was less than a year ago. :P
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: idiot kid on January 06, 2009, 04:00:53 am
No, it was ~$4.30 a gallon in North Fort Myers, FL during July 2008. That was less than a year ago. :P
fine but that is not a national average or anything and probably not a good approximation for the next 30 years :Q
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Boulvae on January 06, 2009, 04:41:17 am
That last with the wikipedia article mentions that could be an extremely effiecient motor, and if it is that fact alone would make that a pretty big deal (even if it wasn't a perpetual motion thingy).
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: datamanc3r on January 06, 2009, 08:34:00 am
fine but that is not a national average or anything and probably not a good approximation for the next 30 years :Q
You're only helping my argument. If I were to use today's gas prices, it would take as many as 12 years to break even! But the premise of the resolution is that we will 'run out of oil' and gas prices will rise, so I think 4 dollars is a good average. I certainly hope I'm not being hopeful. At any rate just before the holiday season it was nearly $4.80 in CA, so I might be a little too optimistic.

I'm definitely looking into this motor. You don't just GAIN ACCELERATION which is why this is really bizarre. It's gotta be converting something into mechanical motion, maybe radio waves.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Kobra108 on January 06, 2009, 11:01:42 am
You're only helping my argument. If I were to use today's gas prices, it would take as many as 12 years to break even! But the premise of the resolution is that we will 'run out of oil' and gas prices will rise, so I think 4 dollars is a good average. I certainly hope I'm not being hopeful. At any rate just before the holiday season it was nearly $4.80 in CA, so I might be a little too optimistic.

I'm definitely looking into this motor. You don't just GAIN ACCELERATION which is why this is really bizarre. It's gotta be converting something into mechanical motion, maybe radio waves.
I'm going to try to build a small-scale version that can be used in electronics. Hook it up with a battery to get it started and (possibly?) free electricity.

I haven't put a whole lot of thought into this yet, though. It might not work.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Chaos Emerl on January 06, 2009, 08:51:18 pm
I heard there was a certain type of Algae that produces fossil fuels.  With a little bit of research into how it works, Oil could be turned into a renewable resource.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Kobra108 on January 07, 2009, 12:27:14 am
I heard there was a certain type of Algae that produces fossil fuels.  With a little bit of research into how it works, Oil could be turned into a renewable resource.
Yeah, but it would be ideal to move on past fossil fuels.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Mince Wobley on January 07, 2009, 12:38:43 am
In brazil since 2003 or so there is a "flex-fuel" fad and pretty much almost everyone has a "flex-fuel" car that can run on anything from 100% ethanol to 20% ethanol / 80% gasoline (the normal "gasoline" since 1973 to save real gasoline because there was a fuel crisis going on). Ironically they'll break if you fuel them with 100% gasoline. But then if you use 100% ethanol the mileage isn't as good but I guess it's ok since it's renewable (it comes from sugar cane), at least until they improve that algae fuel and it becomes mainstream (wikipedia says it's like 80% as good as gasoline).
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: WarV on January 07, 2009, 02:42:01 am
What ever happened to Hydrogen Fuel cells?
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Kobra108 on January 07, 2009, 04:26:57 am
What ever happened to Hydrogen Fuel cells?
Where does the Hydrogen come from? How do we obtain a steady supply of Hydrogen, and how much energy will that take? There is no magical end-all solution.
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Farren on January 07, 2009, 04:29:03 am
I'm interested in hemp. I saw it mentioned in that economy topic and it seems like an interesting fuel source. We make the plant a national resource sell the weed and use the males for fuel and the rest for clothing, lotion, food etc..
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: datamanc3r on January 07, 2009, 06:44:45 am
Yeah, but it would be ideal to move on past fossil fuels.
Just be wary that we'll never fully drop consumption of petroleum. We actually use that in plastics, paints, and some medicines -- it's not all just transportation. If we didn't have plastics, we'd be screwed as a nation! Thus, for transportation and various other reasons, securing oil has always been a priority. Now, whether or not we ought to OVERSEE THE OIL is debatable. Centcom, or "Central Command," is basically overseeing oil transportation in the middle east. Apparently we actually use our military defend its transportation on a daily basis...at the cost of our soldier's lives and basically our image (nobody likes it when any army occupies your land). I'm currently reading "Blood and Oil" by Michael T. Klare, and surprisingly it's very informative, and not shouting politics at you...I've not finished it, but I almost say I recommend it.

Oil independence is definitely a goal...but we have to produce that oil because alot of it was drilled up in WWII. We have tar sands, the Colorado Rockies, and the ANWR (wildlife reserves..), but I don't think any of that will support our needs for a prolonged amount of time. I'd really like to see some oil independence in the future, and more progress with an alternatively-fueled infrastructure.

IF ONLY WE DIDN:T HAVE A GRIDLOCKED GOVERNMENT AND FATASS POLITICIANS WHO TRY TO AVOID ADDRESSING PROBLEMS TO GET REELECTED

Where does the Hydrogen come from? How do we obtain a steady supply of Hydrogen, and how much energy will that take? There is no magical end-all solution.
I honestly think that if we have some nuclear reactors out in the ocean, they can use the oceanwater to cool the reactor (a process that does not make the water radioactive, don't worry), as well as get the hydrogen necessary for this. It's costly, but if there's an infrastructure available, and if people have the cars for it, it'd pay off in the end. Unfortunately it seems that ONLY the oil companies can afford it though -- the government actually offers to pay as much as 90% of the reactor and people STILL don't buy them.

OOOO I forgot to show you guys this, but I thought it was really cool. Solar panels...on the ocean!!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D1XyR3YOVZQ
http://www.solar-islands.ch/index.php
They are thermal solar panels...they don't exactly create electricity from sunlight. They heat water up in a series of pipes to generate electricity and do not use expensive photovoltaic cells. I think it's a pretty nifty idea, and we definitely need that for refining hydrogen for fuel cells (the water's RIGHT THERE!!), as well as for desalinization. (Desalinization means to take the salt out of oceanwater to make drinkable freshwater. California relies heavily on the Colorado River. If there's a big drought or anything, we're fucked. So water desalinization for this is really good. Furthermore, we can transport water to Africa and other needy countries, which would be pretty awesome!)

EDIT:
I'm interested in hemp. I saw it mentioned in that economy topic and it seems like an interesting fuel source. We make the plant a national resource sell the weed and use the males for fuel and the rest for clothing, lotion, food etc..
One of my debate topics awhile back was about the Colombian Drug Wars. For shits and giggles I argued that we should legalize all these drugs, esp. for medical treatment. What they'd do is give them the cocaine to shoot and administer it in smaller and smaller doses. To make sure they don't go to other hospitals for more we would implant chips in them that each hospital would scan. what this effectively does is destroy the black market for drugs, lower crime, get people offa drugs, etc. etc. I ONLY SAW BENEFITS FOR MY ARGUMENTS AND MY OPPONENTS HAD NOTHIGN TO SAY

I lost that debate badly. :(
Title: Alternative Fuels
Post by: Kobra108 on January 07, 2009, 01:30:22 pm
I honestly think that if we have some nuclear reactors out in the ocean, they can use the oceanwater to cool the reactor (a process that does not make the water radioactive, don't worry)
Heh. Did I really come across as someone who doesn't understand Atomic Theory?