Topic: Missing link found??? (Read 4910 times)

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i used the flat earth theory because it's a criticism of the church but mostly so i could use 'foundation.'
every greek that believed in a flat earth theory had it... underlying them, it was what they... worked upon.

secondly evolution doesn't come into play much in biochemistry, ecology, or biology of cells much as far as i'm aware, so in terms of being a foundation of biology i don't think it follows. the foundation of taxonomy is a relational understanding of animals for the most part, evolution explains the relationships but i don't think it's all that necessary in terms of a foundation like newtons laws to physics (i know about einstein shut up)

this is all besides the point, "it was attacking your underlying assumption that the more people use it or believe in it the more valid it is."

as far as i remember the greeks were aware of the possibility of a round earth because they sailed so much but it wasn't mainstream
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i don't see how this related to anything, this whole discussion came from Dada saying evolution doesn't need support anymore, it's already proven, stop looking.
I never said anything of the sort. What I said was that evolution does not stand or fall based on these discoveries.

SPLAT.

I even said "surprise: evolution is more complex than you thought it was" in my very first post in agreement with the notion that it is incredibly naive to believe that it all depends on some elusive "missing link" that will make or break the work of hundreds of millions of independent scientists.

the only thing that came near to addressing any point i made was dada's citrate example. honestly read through that, it's like a youtube commentary. none of those address the logic or usefulness of evolution. i guess usefulness is implied in relation to the foundation of modern day biology, but how or why isn't given and i have a feeling you wouldn't be able to without drawing on the same arguments i criticised for unverifiability and disgusting conclusions.
First of all: as it stands right now, evolution is undoubtedly valid. Following Darwin's theory, and even quite some time before then, we've been finding evidence that supports evolution on numerous occasions and in locations all around the world. We've found countless fossils that fit in perfectly with previously obtained evidence based on physique and estimated time frame. We've been able to reliably explain what we see in nature based on the theory, and we've even seen evolution occur in real time on several occasions, the example of E. Coli spontaneously developing the ability to metabolize citrate and keeping it in later generations being just one of them.

There's a mountain of evidence, gathered by independent researchers around the world and throughout the ages, that supports evolution; probably as big as the one pertaining to gravity.

You are eager to dismiss my E. Coli example as being "like a YouTube commentary", but strangely enough it seems like you're more interested in figuring out the "usefulness" of evolution. Guess what: the crap you attribute to "the evolutionists" about the theory supporting or endorsing racial supremacy is not only horribly offensive to us but also completely apocryphal. It's the kind of theory that someone who does not understand evolution would come up with to try and hurt those he disagrees with by associating them with something reprehensible. In reality, the only evidence that has been found in concordance with this subject is that two randomly selected people from the same race are, on average, more genetically diverse than two people from different races. In other words, there is absolutely no genetic and thus no evolution-related proof of what you're saying. What you are identifying as the "racial supremacist theory" that is "perfectly supported by evolution" is, in fact, just some random nonsense you made up to explain a number of correlations that, as Steel mentioned, are best explained by environmental differences.

No sane person in the world of science holds that people who belong to a minority are more stupid than those who belong to the majority because they have a lower IQ on average; it's because minorities tend to live under worse circumstances, have less money, have less access to healthcare, have less access to media, and have less diverse social connections. (Allegedly. These things are incredibly hard to validate, which is another reason why no scientist in his right mind would try and bring evolution into the debate.)
Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 09:09:46 am by Dada
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I never said anything of the sort. What I said was that evolution does not stand or fall based on these discoveries.

SPLAT.

I even said "surprise: evolution is more complex than you thought it was" in my very first post in agreement with the notion that it is incredibly naive to believe that it all depends on some elusive "missing link" that will make or break the work of hundreds of millions of independent scientists.

Quote
This whole "missing link" stuff is nonsense that that scientists shouldn't even be paying attention to

Quote
But more importantly, if you think the need to find these things is in any way requisite for the evolution theory to stand, you must not understand it very well.

Quote
Even if we'd never find even a single fossil from here on, we'd already have seen enough evidence of that fact by now to know both micro- and macroevolution are true.

in light of what you were responding to i took this to mean something of the sort.

Quote
First of all: as it stands right now, evolution is undoubtedly valid. Following Darwin's theory, and even quite some time before then, we've been finding evidence that supports evolution on numerous occasions and in locations all around the world. We've found countless fossils that fit in perfectly with previously obtained evidence based on physique and estimated time frame. We've been able to reliably explain what we see in nature based on the theory, and we've even seen evolution occur in real time on several occasions, the example of E. Coli spontaneously developing the ability to metabolize citrate and keeping it in later generations being just one of them.

There's a mountain of evidence, gathered by independent researchers around the world and throughout the ages, that supports evolution; probably as big as the one pertaining to gravity.

You are eager to dismiss my E. Coli example as being "like a YouTube commentary", but strangely enough it seems like you're more interested in figuring out the "usefulness" of evolution. Guess what: the crap you attribute to "the evolutionists" about the theory supporting or endorsing racial supremacy is not only horribly offensive to us but also completely apocryphal. It's the kind of theory that someone who does not understand evolution would come up with to try and hurt those he disagrees with by associating them with something reprehensible. In reality, the only evidence that has been found in concordance with this subject is that two randomly selected people from the same race are, on average, more genetically diverse than two people from different races. In other words, there is absolutely no genetic and thus no evolution-related proof of what you're saying. What you are identifying as the "racial supremacist theory" that is "perfectly supported by evolution" is, in fact, just some random nonsense you made up to explain a number of correlations that, as Steel mentioned, are best explained by environmental differences.

No sane person in the world of science holds that people who belong to a minority are more stupid than those who belong to the majority because they have a lower IQ on average; it's because minorities tend to live under worse circumstances, have less money, have less access to healthcare, have less access to media, and have less diverse social connections. (Allegedly. These things are incredibly hard to validate, which is another reason why no scientist in his right mind would try and bring evolution into the debate.)

i actually said your citrate example was the only one that addressed any of my concerns, and the arguments on the whole resembled a youtube commentary (expand the box and try to disagree. if you think i've been unfair in my summary go back through the topic). they were seperate statements, i actually thought the citrate thing was really cool

my main gripe from the beggining has been that evolution is post-hoc and unfalsifiable, and findings like this 'missing link' are the only things that keep it scientific. finding more and more examples of 'evolution' doesn't make it more and more 'valid' until you test every single case. like in a post office, if you said "all this mail was sent last thursday" finding more and more letters that had been sent on thursday don't make the case stronger and stronger LOGICALLY. i think if you picked a whole bunch of random letters from around the room and they were all sent last thursday i'd probably believe you, though logically it doesn't follow. i probably wouldn't believe you if you picked up a few letters, said they were sent last thursday, and proceeded to find more letters that had been sent last thursday to give to me as evidence. you can also explain anything with evolution and i've given so many examples, including the racial differences one that wasn't too far removed from the 1994 best seller "the bell curve." on this note of reading:

The evolutionary basis of women having poorer map skills:
Silverman, I., & Eals, M. (1992). Sex differences in spatial ability: Evolutionary theory and data. In J.Barkow, L. Cosmides, & J. Tooby (Eds.), The adapted mind. New York: Oxford University Press.

Silverman, I., & Phillips, K. (1998). The evolutionary psychology of spatial sex differences. In C. Crawford & D.L. Krebs (Eds.), Handbook of evolutionary psychology: Ideas, issues, and applications. Mahwah, NJ: Erlbaum.

Silverman, I., Choi, J., Mackewn, A., Fisher, M., Moro., J., & P;shansky, E. (2000). Evolved mechanisms underlying wayfinding: Further studies on the hunter-gatherer theory of spatial sex differences. Evolution and Human Behaviour, 21, 201-213.

Why round women are sexy:

Barber, N. (1995). The evolutionary psychology of physical attractiveness: Sexual selection and human morphology. Ethology and Sociobiology, 16(5), 395-424.

Why women have less sex drive:

Buss, D. M. (1993). Sexual strategies theory: An evolutionary perspective on human mating. Psychology Review, 100, 204-232.

WHY MEN EVOLVED TO RAPE WOMEN/WHY WOMEN EVOLVED TO BE RAPED AND DISLIKE IT:

Thornhill, R., & Palmer, C. T. (2000) A natural history of rape: Biological bases of sexual coercion. MIT Press: Cambridge MA.

i could keep going because this is all evolutionary psychology does and maybe it was presumptuous of me to think that most people had heard of evolutionary explanations of human behaviour before but this is... all it's used for. what is useful about the theory aside from post-hoc explanations? predicting which bones will be in what strata? of course, if they're more or less complex, either way it supports evolution.

i have the feeling i didn't address something but it's late and i've had very little sleep.
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my main gripe from the beggining has been that evolution is post-hoc and unfalsifiable, and findings like this 'missing link' are the only things that keep it scientific. finding more and more examples of 'evolution' doesn't make it more and more 'valid' until you test every single case. like in a post office, if you said "all this mail was sent last thursday" finding more and more letters that had been sent on thursday don't make the case stronger and stronger LOGICALLY. i think if you picked a whole bunch of random letters from around the room and they were all sent last thursday i'd probably believe you, though logically it doesn't follow. i probably wouldn't believe you if you picked up a few letters, said they were sent last thursday, and proceeded to find more letters that had been sent last thursday to give to me as evidence
Evolution says nothing about "all fossils". All it explains is how genetic material can change with successive generations.

Here's a better analogy. Fact: Woody Guthrie makes folk music. Theory: Woody Guthrie is a folk musician.

How does one disprove this theory? All you need to do is find one jazz song by Woody Guthrie, as then he will become a "jazz and folk musician". However, every single "lost recording" or bootleg that has been found was in fact folk music. Does this mean we need to find every recording he ever made, or even obtain information about every song he's ever played even if it was not recorded, before we can validate the idea that he was a folk musician? All we need to do for it to be scientific is build a model with which we can reliably test and explain the observed facts.

Evolution is similar. Fact: species can change from one generation to the next. Theory: the ideas that describe the modern evolutionary synthesis form an account with which this fact can be accurately and reliably explained.

All the fossils we have found so far help further the case for evolution, but are not necessary for the theory to stand.

I don't have a lot of time right now so I'll elaborate and address your other points later.
Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 01:30:47 pm by Dada
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man why are you even trying.

when you're explaining the idea that scientific theories have to be falsifiable to some kid yelling about fucking POST HOC REASONING (ahahahahaha) you really should just lean back and smoke some weed/design hit new gw7 with flash menus instead.
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man why are you even trying.

when you're explaining the idea that scientific theories have to be falsifiable to some kid yelling about fucking POST HOC REASONING (ahahahahaha) you really should just lean back and smoke some weed/design hit new gw7 with flash menus instead.

I enjoy it!
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seriously though he doesn't understand that science has to be falsifiable though. I zoned this topic out until I just accidentally clicked it but the dude doesn't know falsifiabilty. the core tenet of every scientific theory.

this is just a not very clever restating of the "IT'S JUST A THEORY" argument and I'd argue that by engaging it on any level you add legitimacy to it. sort of like how if I find some guy who believes we should all shove fruit in our ass in order to get our toxins out and then an actual scientist and pit them against each other, anyone watching thinks both have some degree of validity. adding verisimiltude to otherwise specious bullshit is not something you should enjoy doing!

luckily almost no one is reading this topic anymore and the few that are know climbtree loves to troll so!
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It's funny.
No matter how many next to perfect explanations you guys throw at him, he just comes back with some silly new argument in an attempt to convince himself he is right.
Ock ock, Ack ack!
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aahhahaha climbtree you don't understand evolution at all
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Two pages later . . .
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Alright I'm gonna do the dishes and then its war time
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i just wrote this:
Evolution says nothing about "all fossils". All it explains is how genetic material can change with successive generations.

Here's a better analogy. Fact: Woody Guthrie makes folk music. Theory: Woody Guthrie is a folk musician.

How does one disprove this theory? All you need to do is find one jazz song by Woody Guthrie, as then he will become a "jazz and folk musician". However, every single "lost recording" or bootleg that has been found was in fact folk music. Does this mean we need to find every recording he ever made, or even obtain information about every song he's ever played even if it was not recorded, before we can validate the idea that he was a folk musician? All we need to do for it to be scientific is build a model with which we can reliably test and explain the observed facts.

Evolution is similar. Fact: species can change from one generation to the next. Theory: the ideas that describe the modern evolutionary synthesis form an account with which this fact can be accurately and reliably explained.

All the fossils we have found so far help further the case for evolution, but are not necessary for the theory to stand.

I don't have a lot of time right now so I'll elaborate and address your other points later.

to be valid logically you would have to! the argument for woody guthrie being a folk musician looks like this:
folk musicians only play folk music
woodie guthrie is a folk musician <because> we found a folk song by him
and we found a folk song by him
and we found a folk song by him
etc
therefore he only plays folk music
therefore he is a folk musician

this is the same as the mail room example,
all the mail here was sent last thursday <because> we found a letter sent last thursday
and we found a letter sent last thursday
and we found a letter sent last thursday
etc
therefore all the mail here was sent last thursday


this is what the logic of evolution looks like:
all species evolved from a common ancestor <because>
there are similarities and differences between animals <and> similarities and differences are genetically inherited.

support for this comes from finding organisms that are either similar or different, or in essence finding organisms.

this is what the logic of creationism looks like:
all life was created by god <because> without god there would be no life

support for this comes from finding organisms that are alive, or in essence finding organisms.

but even above such a base level theories BASED on evolution are largely unfalsifiable
man evolved to walk upright <because> it was advantageous to breeding, as men that couldn't walk upright didn't breed and therefore don't exist

this is why natural selection is a tautology, it's similar to saying woodie guthrie is a folk musician because he makes folk music. things that have survived survived because they could survive. this isn't useful as it's non-directionary. there's no way of saying what's more likely to survive until after it's happened, so it's post-hoc (haha?) and again not that useful.

the only way i see it put to use is to explain why differences and similarities are advantageous, which leads to disgusting things like why men rape and why we're afraid of black people. the idea of it has done cool things for computer science and mathematics though imo.

It's funny.
No matter how many next to perfect explanations you guys throw at him, he just comes back with some silly new argument in an attempt to convince himself he is right.

thanks for your two cents but i've been repeating myself since the beginning, and in case you didn't see the summary


circa yesterday.

seriously though he doesn't understand that science has to be falsifiable though. I zoned this topic out until I just accidentally clicked it but the dude doesn't know falsifiabilty. the core tenet of every scientific theory.

this is just a not very clever restating of the "IT'S JUST A THEORY" argument and I'd argue that by engaging it on any level you add legitimacy to it. sort of like how if I find some guy who believes we should all shove fruit in our ass in order to get our toxins out and then an actual scientist and pit them against each other, anyone watching thinks both have some degree of validity. adding verisimiltude to otherwise specious bullshit is not something you should enjoy doing!

luckily almost no one is reading this topic anymore and the few that are know climbtree loves to troll so!

You Gotta' Have Faith!
some 'guy' verses an 'actual scientist.' i don't understand that if it wasn't scientific then it wouldn't be accepted as scientific.
i don't know how you can trust science and scientists so much when you've been to university and met them. in regards to fruit:

The benefits of fruit suppositories:
Barnes, M. R. (1969). Clean colons without enemas. The American Journal of Nursing, 69(10), 2128-2129.

Davis, P. F., & Loo, L. Y. (2005). Citrus fruit skin extract for angiogenesis promotion. Southern Medical Journal, 63(2), 56-63.


The benefits of fruit juice enemas:
Habeeb, M. C., Kallstrom, M. D. (1976). Bowel program for institutionalized adults. The American Journal of Nursing, 76(4). 606-608.

unless it was just a comment on my credentials vs dadas.

also 2 people is like a third of the forum now dude.
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Men rape because the Devil made them do it. We're afraid of black people because they're the sons of Cain.
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man why are you even trying.

when you're explaining the idea that scientific theories have to be falsifiable to some kid yelling about fucking POST HOC REASONING (ahahahahaha) you really should just lean back and smoke some weed/design hit new gw7 with flash menus instead.
this coming from the guy who has routinely spent eight pages arguing with shep about nothing
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but even above such a base level theories BASED on evolution are largely unfalsifiable
man evolved to walk upright <because> it was advantageous to breeding, as men that couldn't walk upright didn't breed and therefore don't exist

this is why natural selection is a tautology, it's similar to saying woodie guthrie is a folk musician because he makes folk music. things that have survived survived because they could survive. this isn't useful as it's non-directionary. there's no way of saying what's more likely to survive until after it's happened, so it's post-hoc (haha?) and again not that useful.

the only way i see it put to use is to explain why differences and similarities are advantageous, which leads to disgusting things like why men rape and why we're afraid of black people. the idea of it has done cool things for computer science and mathematics though imo.

thanks for your two cents but i've been repeating myself since the beginning, and in case you didn't see the summary
circa yesterday.
Here is an explanation of how evolution can be falsified:

http://www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CA/CA211.html

The notion that it can not be falsified is widely perpetuated among creationists and is, in fact, not true...

You should also probably get rid of your notion that absolute certainty is required to rely on a theory and accept it as being true. Almost nothing can be known with complete certainty, and as far as practical knowledge is concerned, we could accept these theories as truth because there really is no evidence to the contrary.

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to be valid logically you would have to!
You've said this numerous times. I'm not sure if you realized it yet, but what you think has nothing really to do with how the world of science operates. Nobody cares about what your twisted mind thinks is "logical".

And in case you didn't notice, some of this science stuff is really, really quite difficult! For a theory to be acceptable, it doesn't necessarily need to be understood or thought of as "logical" by everyone. I don't understand special relativity. Does that mean I should think of it as untrue until I do fully comprehend it? To quote the philosopher Skinner, that sort of paranoia can get you in the loony bin! (Feel free to hammer me about "faith" in response to this.)

the argument for woody guthrie being a folk musician looks like this:
folk musicians only play folk music
woodie guthrie is a folk musician <because> we found a folk song by him
and we found a folk song by him
and we found a folk song by him
etc
therefore he only plays folk music
therefore he is a folk musician
Although this is an extreme simplification, yes, that's somewhat how a valid theory would look like. Granted, of course, that all the terms used in the theory ("folk musician") are accepted and it is subsequently proven that his songs indeed belong to the folk music. One should prove not that the proposition is right, but that it cannot be wrong under our current understanding. Also, it should mention how the theory can be invalidated: when his first non-folk song is discovered, he is no longer a folk singer. When we assume that all who exclusively make or have made folk songs while they were alive are or were folk musicians, and we prove that Woody Guthrie has only made folk songs, we can hold that he was a folk musician.

Of course the problem is that the analogy doesn't really work as scientific theory because you can't experimentally verify the data, which, in retrospect, makes it a kind of insane and incomplete example, but let's ignore that for now.

Technically, it's possible for the theory to work even if only one [folk] song is known.

Caveat: I haven't ever actually written a complete and valid scientific theory, so anything I say is bound to be an extremely simplified or lacking explanation of this topic, but I think I'm right about the fundamental philosophy here, even if Woody Guthrie is a terrible example.

this is the same as the mail room example,
all the mail here was sent last thursday <because> we found a letter sent last thursday
Stop right here.

The problem is you're making a claim that's entirely different from the Woody Guthrie one we made just now. One that's incredibly hard to believe. For it to be equal with the previous example, it would have to be: this letter here was sent last thursday because that's what the date in the header states (what other way is there to check?)

Of course, when comparing it to evolution, it would be even better to claim "ALL letters in existence are sent last thursday because I have a letter here and it was sent last thursday". That would also be perfectly valid if you could prove it. However, your theory would also have to state "this theory becomes invalid when the first letter is found that was not sent last thursday" and then it sort of explodes.

This is what evolution is. All "letters" are claimed to have been "sent last thursday", which might seem "illogical" to you, but we've yet to discover the first letter that wasn't sent last thursday.
Last Edit: May 29, 2009, 09:06:34 pm by Dada
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this coming from the guy who has routinely spent eight pages arguing with shep about nothing

yeah except we are actually talking about a debate people have had SINCE GW WAS MADE dude. talking with shep about the nature of music is at least new ground even if you know it's wasted time. I am pretty sure omeg was part of this exact debate a few times too. if I'm wrong tho my bad but I'm sure I've seen DADA DEBATES EVOLUTIONR before.

ps climbtree man you are a good troll. i give you marmot's seal of approval.

either that or you win the benos of 09.
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honestly try a pineapple first.

You've said this numerous times. I'm not sure if you realized it yet, but what you think has nothing really to do with how the world of science operates. Nobody cares about what your twisted mind thinks is "logical".

And in case you didn't notice, some of this science stuff is really, really quite difficult! For a theory to be acceptable, it doesn't necessarily need to be understood or thought of as "logical" by everyone. I don't understand special relativity. Does that mean I should think of it as untrue until I do fully comprehend it? To quote the philosopher Skinner, that sort of paranoia can get you in the loony bin! (Feel free to hammer me about "faith" in response to this.)
Although this is an extreme simplification, yes, that's somewhat how a valid theory would look like. Granted, of course, that all the terms used in the theory ("folk musician") are accepted and it is subsequently proven that his songs indeed belong to the folk music. One should prove not that the proposition is right, but that it cannot be wrong under our current understanding. Also, it should mention how the theory can be invalidated: when his first non-folk song is discovered, he is no longer a folk singer. When we assume that all who exclusively make or have made folk songs while they were alive are or were folk musicians, and we prove that Woody Guthrie has only made folk songs, we can hold that he was a folk musician.

Of course the problem is that the analogy doesn't really work as scientific theory because you can't experimentally verify the data, which, in retrospect, makes it a kind of insane and incomplete example, but let's ignore that for now.

Technically, it's possible for the theory to work even if only one [folk] song is known.

Caveat: I haven't ever actually written a complete and valid scientific theory, so anything I say is bound to be an extremely simplified or lacking explanation of this topic, but I think I'm right about the fundamental philosophy here, even if Woody Guthrie is a terrible example.
Stop right here.

The problem is you're making a claim that's entirely different from the Woody Guthrie one we made just now. One that's incredibly hard to believe. For it to be equal with the previous example, it would have to be: this letter here was sent last thursday because that's what the date in the header states (what other way is there to check?)

Of course, when comparing it to evolution, it would be even better to claim "ALL letters in existence are sent last thursday because I have a letter here and it was sent last thursday". That would also be perfectly valid if you could prove it. However, your theory would also have to state "this theory becomes invalid when the first letter is found that was not sent last thursday" and then it sort of explodes.

This is what evolution is. All "letters" are claimed to have been "sent last thursday", which might seem "illogical" to you, but we've yet to discover the first letter that wasn't sent last thursday.


you're not using valid properly, none of those lines of reasoning are logically valid. here's something that i thought was fairly cool when i first came across it, scientifically an experiment only needs to be conducted once to establish a relationship. repeating the experiment isn't to give further support to the findings, it's to test the control of the experiment. logically finding more and more examples doesn't give it more and more support. hundreds and thousands of examples don't make it logically any more valid than one. this is a pretty weak inference so in terms of the value of the theory you'd have to look at what use it is, and aside from justifying behaviours and differences as biological imperatives i don't see how it's any more useful than leaving it at "these things are similar," "these things are different."

you don't need a theory of genesis at all just like you don't need a theory on the afterlife. because evolution is more believable than creationism doesn't mean that we should accept either.

the mail room example isn't any harder to believe than the woodie guthrie example logically, it's only because we already know facts about the mail system and woodie guthrie that this is the case.

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However, your theory would also have to state "this theory becomes invalid when the first letter is found that was not sent last thursday" and then it sort of explodes.

this isn't a necessary statement. if i said all chicken eggs are brown this is disproven automatically by anything that is a chicken egg and isn't brown.

to change the woodie guthrie example to be closer to evolution, rap music comes from woodie guthrie's folk music. for evidence, here's some rap music, here's some folk music, here's some that's inbetween. i don't know how you would disprove this except with a counter example with more support, to which evolutionary explanations usually have none.



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You want validity to evolution? Selective Breeding, if the theory of evolution (which only really explains how and why of organism A being here yet there is a bunch of bones of an oganism B that hasn`t ever been seen alive) was not valid then selective breeding would not make sense because the entire theory is applied to Selective Breeding. You get a bunch of the same species with the same traits together, you make em' horny, then you get babies, sift through babies showing the traits you want, mate em' with others with same traits, repeat process until you get something different or even completely different and it is garrunteed if you continue doing this generation, after generation you will get results and get something different.

All those breeds of cats and dogs that exist came from applying the base idea that the theory comes from which is parents with certain characteristics give birth to offspring shat share some of those characteristics.
A tool is a tool regardless. I mean if you suck, you suck, and not even the most perfect tool could save you. And if your damn good then even with the worst tool ever conceived you could chug out some high quality shit.
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you're not using valid properly, none of those lines of reasoning are logically valid.
You know, you kind of remind me of Sarah Palin during the last election cycle. No matter what people would say to her, she'd eventually keep running back to the same old dumb talking points like "but I can see Russia from my house!" You too seem to have an answer to every counterargument you stumble upon: "it isn't logically valid".

I just explained to you that it doesn't really matter what you think is "logical" or "valid". Some things just don't make sense no matter how badly you want them to. Holding your breath isn't going to change that.

here's something that i thought was fairly cool when i first came across it, scientifically an experiment only needs to be conducted once to establish a relationship. repeating the experiment isn't to give further support to the findings, it's to test the control of the experiment. logically finding more and more examples doesn't give it more and more support. hundreds and thousands of examples don't make it logically any more valid than one.
Okay, so what exactly are you implying? That you accept the fact fossils may make the evolution more credible but not more "logical"? I can get behind that. The theory does not get rewritten every single time a new fossil is found.

It would be a big mistake, however, to assume that the theory does not get extra weight when these examples are found. Remember that there's a human element involved in this. This is natural science, not formal science. While it doesn't matter how often you calculate that 2+2=4, as that has been proven to be true, it does matter that we analyze and test the theory of evolution under all possible circumstances, because there's always a chance that some extreme setting might change the outcome somehow, forcing us to rethink and reshape the theory to account for that special setting as well.

This is also why I accused you of not knowing the fundamental philosophy behind natural science. You get too caught up in this idea of "logic" being the only way something can be "proven" and forget that natural science theories require an argumentation explaining why they are not false as opposed to true.

this isn't a necessary statement. if i said all chicken eggs are brown this is disproven automatically by anything that is a chicken egg and isn't brown.
No, this is actually one of the most important aspects of a theory. You MUST explicitly make it known that the theory "all raven are black" is no longer valid upon discovering "the first raven to bear a plumage that is not completely black". It's not something implicit.

to change the woodie guthrie example to be closer to evolution, rap music comes from woodie guthrie's folk music. for evidence, here's some rap music, here's some folk music, here's some that's inbetween. i don't know how you would disprove this except with a counter example with more support, to which evolutionary explanations usually have none.
"Usually"? Do you mean to say that scientists sometimes do have perfectly valid explanations for fossil records? Because, you know, they do!

It's a big mistake to assume that evolution is unproven because fossils are "just random findings that exhibit no gradual or subtle difference from their supposed ancestors". Bear in mind that it's impossible to prove that one species is the immediate descendant of another. The notion that the intermediate steps even exist is probably based upon the presumption that evolution must always occur at the same pace, which is not true. It's usually the result of a small part of a species moving into a new geographic area which then begins adapting to its new environment rather quickly (as it's a small population), resulting in the "transitional species" being extremely few in number and unlikely to show up anywhere.

Nevertheless, there are plenty of species for which we have a very detailed record. Feel free to reject any line of fossils that exhibits "gaps", even though we usually have very good reasons to assume their ancestry (even with "gaps", common descent is a very accepted theory); but you can't deny evolution for that reason, as there are also fossil records in which there are virtually no gaps, such as that of humans. We know a lot about how humans developed from the gigantic fossil record we've reclaimed so far that shows very gradually how humans evolved into what we are today.

If you want to hold that evolution is "unproven", you must also reject the evidence of the human fossil record. ("Logically", that is.) The discovery of Ida does help further the case for evolution, but its validity was never the main concern anyway. It is not a "missing link" that ties everything together, nor a "killer argument" that will forever shut up all evolution deniers (although it is good PR). It's just yet another fossil, except this one will shed light on the prosimians' role in human evolution, which is exciting in its own right but not a game changer for the validity of the theory.
Last Edit: May 30, 2009, 07:42:39 am by Dada