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Topic: What's on your mind? (Read 123153 times)

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Warped655

#7641 September 08, 2010, 08:16:59 pm

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It's like you are implying that races are separate hive minds that feel the pain of their ancestors.

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Alec

#7642 September 08, 2010, 08:18:48 pm

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or, in the case of middle-eastern folk, themselves.

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Barack Obama

#7643 September 08, 2010, 08:21:31 pm

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Quote from: warpped655 on September 08, 2010, 08:16:59 pm

It's like you are implying that races are separate hive minds that feel the pain of their ancestors.

i'm using a humorous hyperbole because I, myself, am white and it is therefore self-deprecating and ironic. It's self-deprecating because I'm implicating myself in the group of people I say that I hate and it's ironic because I'm being particularly indignant and self-righteous in hating myself. These two elements are often found in humor and are expressed in jokes.

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Vellfire

#7644 September 08, 2010, 08:22:50 pm

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Quote from: warpped655 on September 08, 2010, 08:01:09 pm

I guess?

don't guess, it's true. drawing mohammed makes you a huge jerk who is actively trying to cause problems for no reason

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Warped655

#7645 September 08, 2010, 08:42:54 pm

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Quote from: Alec on September 08, 2010, 08:18:48 pm

or, in the case of middle-eastern folk, themselves.

Is that a specific (but entire) race's fault? That is, all of white people? Also, was I talking big? Was I boasting? are all of white people boasting? Are white people all just a bunch of bullies?
In order to be not called "the worst" I have pull myself out of my life and (not really there) welfare to help these people? Maybe that is understandable if you are singling out those merely richer or in a better place (though not really) its certainly not ok to single out because one has significantly less melatonin. EDIT: and even if I did I wouldn't be able to really do SHIT. I'd barely make a dent.

Look, I agree that the US is corrupt as hell. Things are fucked. but it just seems like you guys all think that you guys could fix everything if you were in control. Like you seem to think you know exactly what is wrong and you can fix it. Meanwhile I'm sure there are millions that think the same and have radically different ideas on whats actually wrong and how it needs to be fixed. Thing is they probably aren't nearly as opinionated as you.

Quote from: DietCoke on September 08, 2010, 08:21:31 pm

i'm using a humorous hyperbole because I, myself, am white and it is therefore self-deprecating and ironic. It's self-deprecating because I'm implicating myself in the group of people I say that I hate and it's ironic because I'm being particularly indignant and self-righteous in hating myself. These two elements are often found in humor and are expressed in jokes.

I understand that you are making a joke at your own expense and other white male's expenses. doesn't really make it a justifiable joke. It just insinuates things that are so blatantly wrong. A racist joke told in a manner that insults, demeans, or puts down the tellers own race is still a racist fucking joke. I understood the irony. I just didn't laugh, or grin, or even experience an elevated mood. I did not find it funny but with understanding. if not understanding with some doubt as its hard to believe someone would make the joke and then make other more serious posts on the same subject that don't appear to be jokes at all but seem to be saying the same thing.

Quote from: Vellfire on September 08, 2010, 08:22:50 pm

don't guess, it's true. drawing mohammed makes you a huge jerk who is actively trying to cause problems for no reason

Well, I didn't draw him. But not because of any moral objection. Mainly because of apathy. Does this make me a jerk?

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Barack Obama

#7646 September 08, 2010, 08:43:48 pm

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The draw mohammed thing is an objectively racist social phenomenon, anyone who's not a total aspie or racist can see it. The facebook group(facebook being known as the whitest social networking site), consisted of primarily white males(the dominant hegemon demographic in the united states) deliberately doing something(creating and then publicly displaying depictions of the prophet mohammed) intended to harass and provoke a particular minority group(muslims) that is currently facing a concerning widespread rise in prejudice/discrimination/harassment in the US.

i hope this was clear enough for you. if you respond with "i think it's not racist" again I'm just going to assume that you're autistic and completely incapable of evaluating the social implication of your actions

Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 08:45:35 pm by DietCoke

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big ass skelly

#7647 September 08, 2010, 08:46:01 pm

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Dietcoke what about 9/11?

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Barack Obama

#7648 September 08, 2010, 08:47:12 pm

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Quote from: big ass skelly on September 08, 2010, 08:46:01 pm

Dietcoke what about 9/11?

that was the jews

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Warped655

#7649 September 08, 2010, 08:58:12 pm

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Seems lazy and unfair you. You generalize far to much. Though I will be honest... I might actually be a undiagnosed autistic, err... slightly (that is a different topic). but I'm not completely incapable evaluating the social implications of my actions. I merely tend to think of things in strickly relative, then for practicality of argument, absolutes.

I suppose that I have not read into the enough to see the racism? I mean. I agree that many of the people doing so may be doing to because they are racist and just want to cause trouble but is it completely impossible that there be some people drawing Mohammed in response to being told not to merely displaying an anti-censorship statement? Maybe that is me being too hopeful...

OK, in all practicality:
I think it is likely that the MAJORITY but not ALL of the people who were drawling Mohammed were:
White
Living in the US
Male
Racist

But I serverly doubt they all were these things.

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Barack Obama

#7650 September 08, 2010, 09:06:26 pm

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Quote from: warpped655 on September 08, 2010, 08:58:12 pm

Seems lazy and unfair you. You generalize far to much. Though I will be honest... I might actually be a undiagnosed autistic, err... slightly (that is a different topic). but I'm not completely incapable evaluating the social implications of my actions. I merely tend to think of things in strickly relative, then for practicality of argument, absolutes.

I suppose that I have not read into the enough to see the racism? I mean. I agree that many of the people doing so may be doing to because they are racist and just want to cause trouble but is it completely impossible that there be some people drawing Mohammed in response to being told not to merely displaying an anti-censorship statement? Maybe that is me being too hopeful...

OK, in all practicality:
I think it is likely that the MAJORITY but not ALL of the people who were drawling Mohammed were:
White
Living in the US
Male
Racist

But I serverly doubt they all were these things.

regardless of whether or not one believes them self to be racist(i.e. we are ignoring the subjective element here), engaging in a social activity that intentionally targets a minority ethno-religious group for harassment is itself objectively racist behavior.

and you're right i do generalize too much. but i'm not writing a term paper here and besides I'm pretty confident my assumptions are correct... there's stats out there for the racial demographics of facebook, but the page in question doesn't exist anymore so that's moot but I looked through the page and saw very little diversity among the individuals participating, feel free to prove any of them incorrect.

Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:15:07 pm by DietCoke

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Kaworu

#7651 September 08, 2010, 09:09:17 pm

kaworu*Sigh*Isnt he the cutest person ever
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i'm not racist, i have a black friend

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Killer Wolf

#7652 September 08, 2010, 09:12:14 pm

"When you're bound by your own convictions, a discipline can be your addiction."
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Quote from: Kaworu on September 08, 2010, 05:00:52 pm

I dont know if killer wolf is a troll or just plain dumb.

None of the above, but here's a classic one just for fun: I'm not a troll, I'm a wolf.

Vagrancy - Be careful who you wake up in a twenty four hour parking lot.

His name was Not Johnny - A young man becomes a sort of superhero after a crippling injury. He

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Vellfire

#7653 September 08, 2010, 09:21:49 pm

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Quote from: warpped655 on September 08, 2010, 08:58:12 pm

Seems lazy and unfair you. You generalize far to much. Though I will be honest... I might actually be a undiagnosed autistic, err... slightly (that is a different topic).

no you're not.

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Warped655

#7654 September 08, 2010, 09:24:21 pm

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I always thought of racist acts being all in intention. And since you can never know for certain someone's intention, you never actually know if one has a racist thought process in their action. That is the subjective part. You can never truly know the intention. Making actions and behaviors impossible to 100% classify as racist. They certainly CAN be. but you never can know for sure.

racism is:
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

The objective part of racism is in the statements. Say someone says "White people have lighter skin the black people" This is TECHNICALLY and objectively a racist statment.

Can't one INDISCRIMINATELY draw and publish everything they are told they are not allowed to draw and publish? In which case, they would draw and publish Mohammed.

I suppose you'd have to add "That they also wouldn't likely be directly reprimanded for."

I understand this is unlikely situation. but its outcome is technically true in such a hypothetical situation. and it gets my point across.

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Vellfire

#7655 September 08, 2010, 09:27:23 pm

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Quote from: warpped655 on September 08, 2010, 09:24:21 pm

I always thought of racist acts being all in intention.

A lot of people are subconsciously racist, how do you account for their intention or lack thereof? You can't make this argument unless all racist actions have conscious intent.

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dragonx

#7656 September 08, 2010, 09:41:33 pm

I r TEH DrAgOn RaR
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me and my friends were biking and pretending to sing naruto theme songs but we cant actually speak japanese so we were just making random sounds for the japanese parts

we biked past some asian people and they clapped and cheered

we then felt bad because we thought they were being sarcastic

which part was racist

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Warped655

#7657 September 08, 2010, 09:46:34 pm

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Yeah subconscious... You got me on that... If we are going to enter the realm of the subconscious, it makes it kind of wrong to consider someone as a 'bad person' or in need of some sort of punishment based on things that they do or say that are completely brought out because of their subconscious. As people are not in control of their subconscious.

You can't exactly identify someone as a subconscious racist for a fact either through their subconsciously influenced actions. Just like if they were consciously being racist. So this still doesn't justify saying any action is objectively racist. It can LIKELY be racist. I personally feel its technically wrong to just say "This action is racist"

Then again. Bringing up practicality. I suppose you might need to say this in an argument in order to not sound weak on your argument. Saying "This action is very likely to be racist." isn't going to win any arguments or hearts among the the average person that may be listening/reading.

One of the reasons I suck at public speaking and arguing with people in general. I have to state things in absolutes and a lot of people just exhausted with it... including me and a lot of my arguments sound really weak.

EDIT: so just change "intention" to "conscious and subconscious thought" in my previous argument... I think...

Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:50:10 pm by warpped655

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Ragnar

#7658 September 08, 2010, 09:53:42 pm

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Quote from: Vellfire on September 08, 2010, 09:27:23 pm

A lot of people are subconsciously racist, how do you account for their intention or lack thereof? You can't make this argument unless all racist actions have conscious intent.

yeah isn't there even studies like this person on average keeps 1.3 more feet of personal space when around black people

avoids talking about apples in conversation because it's a fruit like watermelon's

Edit: who is totally not racist and has like 2 black friends

Edit: That's basically what Brian's character on Family Guy is right

Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 09:56:25 pm by Ragnar

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Barack Obama

#7659 September 08, 2010, 10:16:04 pm

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Quote from: warpped655 on September 08, 2010, 09:24:21 pm

I always thought of racist acts being all in intention. And since you can never know for certain someone's intention, you never actually know if one has a racist thought process in their action. That is the subjective part. You can never truly know the intention. Making actions and behaviors impossible to 100% classify as racist. They certainly CAN be. but you never can know for sure.

racism is:
1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.
2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.

The objective part of racism is in the statements. Say someone says "White people have lighter skin the black people" This is TECHNICALLY and objectively a racist statment.

Can't one INDISCRIMINATELY draw and publish everything they are told they are not allowed to draw and publish? In which case, they would draw and publish Mohammed.

I suppose you'd have to add "That they also wouldn't likely be directly reprimanded for."

I understand this is unlikely situation. but its outcome is technically true in such a hypothetical situation. and it gets my point across.

Well frankly I don't think you understand racism if you are unable to make the simple abstraction of the subjective and objective elements of racism.
One can be subjectively racist and just hate black people or whatever, that is one kind of racism. Then there's racist behaviors, actions, statements, institutions, power structures etc. that exist independent of any particular individuals subjective feelings on the matter, lots of people who do racist shit are simply unaware that they're doing something racist! Don Imus for example probably didn't intend to be racist when he called a primarily black woman's basketball team "nappy headed hos" but that doesn't change the fact that it's an objectively racist thing to say. the concept of 'white privilege' is another example of a racist social relation while white people benefitting from it are not necessarily racist themselves.

Last Edit: September 08, 2010, 10:20:56 pm by DietCoke

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Warped655

#7660 September 09, 2010, 12:01:05 am

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Sorry if I come off as irritating. Or overly serious, or overly persistent. :P

I actually generally enjoy these kinds of discussions and arguments. Which is sort of why I persisted. Am I troll? because I like conflict on the internet? IDK makes things a little bit more interesting.

You may have explained it to me a little more effectively this time. or maybe I just needed it said multiple times in different ways. but now I think I get what you are saying (maybe not IDK).

'white privilege' might be what I kind of get. White people, since they are the major make-up of upper-middle class and up, are generally more comfortable with other white people. Making it so that they may make a subconscious choice that would favor the company of more white people. Take hiring someone for a job, since most of the more rich people are white, and are generally more comfortable with another white person (maybe just because its familiar) and thus would be in the position to hire. Will end up hiring the white guy over the black guy barring some significant skills that the black guy has over the white dude. This ends up further cementing black people as cast as the poor and white people as rich.

Thing is though that through time I believe this will even out. It'll just take a long while. And it sucks. But I don't think this means the white 'boss' in this case is hateful. Maybe a bit of a slave to his animalistic and racist subconscious (that a lot of people have, not just white people), but not hateful (though maybe they are hateful, or maybe they acknowledge that their subconscious is making them prefer the white guy, but just don't give a fuck, which is pretty bad as well). and I know you never said explicitly the word "hate" or any variant. but that is what is always conjured when racism is brought up.

Am I right? or am I wrong? Was at least close? I understand that this is just a single example of what you may be referring to.

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