Serious Do Economics belong in an offline rpg or adventure game? (Read 450 times)

  • Avatar of Mikemc
  • Caboose
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Oct 7, 2002
  • Posts: 387
It has recently occurred to me that while weapons and items never change in price for their type, Inn costs often go up as you travel the world. What would you think of a changing market where as you purchase more of an item or item type, their cost goes up and when you sell, it goes down? It would have to be set in such a way to prevent you from buying 99 for 1g each and then selling them for 50g at the same store the next day. :hmm:

Have you seen any indie games where prices fluctuate or at least are different in other regions? And while it may be unique, would there be lots of interest in it?

- Mike


Quote from: Evangel
You can't run from your past, S4D. YOU CAN'T RUN FROM YOUR PAST!
  • Avatar of Vellfire
  • TV people want to leave
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Feb 13, 2004
  • Posts: 9602
I think it can have a place, but it's up to you.  I think it would be very interesting, but some players might just find it annoying.
I love this hobby - stealing your mother's diary
BRRING! BRRING!
Hello!  It's me, Vellfire!  FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER! ... Bye!  CLICK!  @gidgetnomates
  • Avatar of Shinan
  • Fascist
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Nov 27, 2001
  • Posts: 380
Depends on the scope of a game. If a game's storyline involves trade or economics then it makes sense for the game to have an "economics minigame" in it. Look at something like Pirates! where you can run around with your goods trying to find where you can buy it cheap and sell it expensive.

The whole trading minigame thingie is a popular thing in many different games. For example in that GTA DS game there's the drug-trade game. And many other games have those prices jumping up and down and you sell all that good shit you found.

But then again. In a traditional jRPG where progression is linear and you never really have any reason to backtrack through the world a system like this is just stupid. So yeah it's not something you can tack onto anything it has to have its place.
"I'm just a nationalistic Swedish-speaking Finn"
"Aivan, mutta suomalaiset juovat toki olutta."
 I never forget an Insult nor do I forget a compliment.
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jun 22, 2005
  • Posts: 1325
It makes sense to apply "economics light" to most games if for no other reason than to avoid really obvious tropes.

An example of this to have inns and merchants reflect the area they are in. Many RPGs just have the merchant dole out better and better equipment as the game goes on with no regard for logic, but even in a very linear game it can make sense to have merchants sell to their strengths. Smaller, rural towns could have an awesome potion dealer, whereas that mining town could have great weapons. The towns offer better equipment than before, but it's not just the predicable cycle of "enter new town, buy better equipment, move on". I find basing your decisions on something other than RPG tropes helps you to look at the game and say "wait, why am I doing this?" which usually ends up refining the game making progress and giving you interesting ideas on how to overcome challenges.

Setting up regional economies works better in big, open-ended games where there is a tonne of backtracking, like Shinan said. It's tricky to balance fun against micro-management of items, though.
The Misadventures of Crimebot
  • Avatar of JMickle
  • I gots a lego!
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Feb 4, 2007
  • Posts: 1922
An example of this that i know of is in Final Fantasy 3 DS, where if you 'bulk buy' an item, the price for each goes down a bit.

for instance buying 10 potions may cost 1000 altogether, but then buying 11 may cost 1095, so the price goes down a bit. It can save a huge amount if you buy 99 items at a time, encouraging players to horde their money, then spend it at once, instead of just buying everytime they can.

i know its not EXACTLY the same, but it is an element of economics.
www.jmickle.com
  • Avatar of Vellfire
  • TV people want to leave
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Feb 13, 2004
  • Posts: 9602
I agree with Shinan about the linear game thing.  In a linear game, it would be more of a chore and less fun to backtrack to some previous place just to buy something cheaper.  Definitely only leave this to more open ended games.
I love this hobby - stealing your mother's diary
BRRING! BRRING!
Hello!  It's me, Vellfire!  FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER! ... Bye!  CLICK!  @gidgetnomates
  • Avatar of Mikemc
  • Caboose
  • PipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Oct 7, 2002
  • Posts: 387
Okay, good information.. How about choice? Like if multiple locations in the current area offered different priced services, like Kaempfer said, where one town had a cheap inn but another ad better priced items.


Quote from: Evangel
You can't run from your past, S4D. YOU CAN'T RUN FROM YOUR PAST!
  • Avatar of JMickle
  • I gots a lego!
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Feb 4, 2007
  • Posts: 1922
i think it would just cause frustration, really, i doubt the player would see it in a good way.
www.jmickle.com
  • Avatar of Craze /!\
  • Its all fairy-ish.
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Mar 6, 2004
  • Posts: 776
What I like to plan out (although I have not released a game like this) is a game with a hub town that has multiple inns, item stores, etc. There would be economic factions - like a blacksmithing family with a chain of stores, or a group of ladies that can get you better deals at some places if you help them out occasionally. There would also be risk when buying things cheap - you might having a lighter pack when leaving a dirt-cheap inn, or be caught trading on the black market when getting cheap health pots.
  • Avatar of Ragnar
  • Worthless Protoplasm
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jun 15, 2002
  • Posts: 6536
I was thinking of putting different currencies in a game once

also I think it would be interesting if stuff sold for different prices in different parts of the world. Like Uncharted Waters did this but not many regular rpgs as far as I know. The obvious would be PEPPER and stuff but make it all shit you'd use in-game

also since it's the freaking END OF THE WORLD most of the time I think this should cause a recession in the game world

but yeah I think it should happen in such a way so you still only have to hang around in a town for 20 seconds if you want to. Games where you spend forever in town are fucking annoying. But it should be the sort of thing somebody will just notice which I why I mentioned the 'different values for stuff in different parts of the world' thing. Like somebody might notice their x-potion is worth 688699 gold in Groove Snackistan but all they have to do is sell an item in two different towns to notice the difference. Kind of a RANDOM GAMEPLAY NUDGE. But yeah it should also not be like something people have to invest a lot of time in like getting a deal from some ladies in town that's an awful idea it sounds like recursive sidequest hell

you could do like Dragon Warrior II did and randomly get lottery tickets/coupons after shopping. And redeem them automatically instead of having to manage 5000 different coupons. Just make it so it's a pleasant surprise/adds an extra element of luck and not something time-consuming and annoying

a fucking Wal-Mart of the rpg world would be hilarious though, like you can get good prices there but you have to go through this huge labyrinthine store to find your stuff and there are random encounters and everybody shopping there are big dumb bruiser types and the food isn't as healthy
Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 09:03:45 pm by Ragnar
http://djsaint-hubert.bandcamp.com/
 
  • Avatar of Vellfire
  • TV people want to leave
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Feb 13, 2004
  • Posts: 9602
idk if regular elite was like this but i played anarchy on my graphing calculator (which is supposed to be an elite clone) and basically you just zoomed around shooting other ships and then stopping at ports to buy and sell things, but the fact that other planets were so far away made you have to make serious choices as to whether you were going to sell or possibly have to wait a REALLY long time to get a better price, it was really cool, BUT i would not like this in the middle of a regular game if i had to do this to possibly afford anything.  make it optional unless you can integrate it in a spectacular way
I love this hobby - stealing your mother's diary
BRRING! BRRING!
Hello!  It's me, Vellfire!  FOLLOW ME ON TWITTER! ... Bye!  CLICK!  @gidgetnomates
  • Avatar of Ghost_Aspergers
  • The man in the woods.
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jul 1, 2003
  • Posts: 2752
Honestly... I prefer the old system where the price of higher grade items go down as even higher grade items are introduced as you move from town to town... meanwhile the sell price remains the same regardless (usually 50% of the cheapest incarnation of the item).

I also like Lineage's system where the castle lord sets a tax rate that effects buy/sell prices at fixed percentages for the surrounding towns. If there was a way to implement a local/global tax in this way you can have the prices fluctuate in response to the events of the story... that would be more easier to plan out than having it change by locale.
  • Avatar of Doppleganger
  • Split into many...
  • PipPip
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jun 16, 2002
  • Posts: 260
Basing it off of locale in a linear game would be pretty interesting.

Imagine that you are in a desert and potions are the only item that heal you in a game (or at least currently). These potions happen to use water as a main component to them. Since water is scarce in the desert, it drives potions up to a ridiculous price. Perhaps reaching over 3000% of its typical value. Now, if a player was in the desert, and had no way to access other shops, they might be inclined to purchase some of these exorbitantly priced potions.

If you were able to afford the player enough income to purchase them, and presented them with a situation where they were absolutely necessary, then it would definitely add some interest to the game. That player, when they first see the prices will be like "Man! That's way too expensive, not buying those..." and then later "I can't believe I'm actually buying these."

As far as fluctuating prices go, Chainer's got the right idea that they should be story-driven. It'd be cool to put a real-time economy into a game, but I am pretty sure that the actual math behind it being credible is beyond the intellect and/or effort that the designer can put forth. In my experience, even the pro games that try to do this end up with something akin to a number game. Unless the math behind this is solidly backed and dynamic, there's pretty much no way that an artificial economy won't become this. Once a player learns of any piece of the algorithm behind it, they can slowly deconstruct the system until they are able to manipulate each piece. Basically, a real-time economy would have to be encrypted through all of the minute details and random bits that give it real-world relevance.

With all that being said, I've considered the very system I just laid out on occasion. The conclusion I've come to, is that it would be better to let the player indirectly affect market prices, and leave the random and small-scale fluctuation to the game itself. In this sense, the player might drive up the prices of anything constructed with ore in an area relative to the mine he just collapsed while battling a giant dwarf. Buying out a shop of its potions would just result in having to wait as they restock the shop. Do it enough times and the shop might restock faster, as the owner tries to keep up with demand. Do it enough times after that and the owner might stock new types of items with the extra surplus he's getting from you buying his potions. In this sense, it is possible that the prices of potions eventually rise as the producers of the potions start running low on the material components of the item, or the owner seeks new potion providers who might charge higher prices because it is less convenient to ship to him.
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jun 22, 2005
  • Posts: 1325
In this sense, the player might drive up the prices of anything constructed with ore in an area relative to the mine he just collapsed while battling a giant dwarf.
I was thinking about this, as well, as it ties into a greater philosophy I have about having the player indirectly affect the game world to improve design aspects as well as logical ones. The player is going to go and kill Blaggi the Giant Cave Dwarf because it's a quest and the player loves quests. Well, after he kills him, he's going to have leveled up from fighting Blaggi's minions, part of the Cave Dwarf Miners Union Local 26, so he'll need better items. Luckily, destroying Blaggi and his dirty union henchmen has allowed the city's honest non-union miners access to excellent iron ore, so in they go. The smiths sell better swords, now! This lets you reuse towns, since now the player is setting off in a different direction from the same point. This allows designers to focus on making a couple good towns rather than a plethora of totally interchangeable ones. Similar ideas are players opening merchant passes, shipping routes, et cetera, et cetera, to change the challenge of any given area rather than have each place he visits contain precisely one hardship. One of the reasons I like thinking about logical things and encourage others to do it isn't because I think realism is a must in every video game but because it forces your brain to think up interesting solutions to challenges you've created for yourself, rather than just write them off as being "just a game". The player usually appreciates the extra effort.

Buying out a shop of its potions would just result in having to wait as they restock the shop. Do it enough times and the shop might restock faster, as the owner tries to keep up with demand. Do it enough times after that and the owner might stock new types of items with the extra surplus he's getting from you buying his potions. In this sense, it is possible that the prices of potions eventually rise as the producers of the potions start running low on the material components of the item, or the owner seeks new potion providers who might charge higher prices because it is less convenient to ship to him.

This COULD be fun, but it sounds a bit like an expansion of what Morrowind did, and that was no fun at all. Each merchant had a set amount of gold each day, which you obviously wanted to get since it weighed nothing. Except some of the items sold for 60000 gold and the most merchants carried was 7000, or something. Which meant if you wanted it, you had to trade for their ENTIRE INVENTORY (in barter), then rest for 24 hours, and sell items piece by piece over the next couple days until you got it all and shrugged the heft of those items off. I'm not saying it wouldn't be easy to make a better system than that but the trick is in balancing it. You don't want the player to get swamped in an area because they are trying to level up to get past the next area, but need loads of potions to keep going, but you also don't want to make the system's effects so negligible that there is no point in implementing it, either. I mean, what if I really need thirty potions but the merchant only has ten? I'd have to wait around for him to get more.

This system would, however, lend itself well to a game that had lots of merchants all vying for their market share; one potion merchant sells out, and the next day all the other merchants raise their prices for health potions. This happened a lot in medieval times in local economies. It could also be interesting to see implemented in a sort of Uncharted Waters that was set entirely in one huge city where you are trying to make money as an adventurer. You've settled down, and are trying to run the best business in town by controlling the town's economy, all the while making gold slaying orcs for the city guard on the side. Hmm, could be interesting!
The Misadventures of Crimebot
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jun 11, 2007
  • Posts: 86
I have been tempted by the thought of an RPG with something like a stock market you can participate in, or like the auction house in WoW where you can manipulate the market for profit.  But imo, this would just be a silly, not especially interesting mini-game.

My idea of economics in RPG's, though, is to just have differently costed items in each town.  For example, a town near a silver mine would have cheaper silver weapons than other towns, towns with some sort of Harry Porter wizardry school might have cheaper magical items like +1 Swords, and so on.
  • Avatar of Dead Phoenix
  • Gigantic Megaman danceing time!
  • PipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Feb 22, 2003
  • Posts: 438
I have been tempted by the thought of an RPG with something like a stock market you can participate in, or like the auction house in WoW where you can manipulate the market for profit.  But imo, this would just be a silly, not especially interesting mini-game.
This kinda reminds me of Romancing SaGa 3.  If you had a certain character in your party(or just started the game as him) you could access a mini-game where you could buy various companies in each town, trying to make your Corporation ranked number 1.  While I am not aware of what affect it had during normal game play(i don't remember any stores changing their prices or anything like that), I think you used a completely different set of currency, so you didn't waste any of you own.  Also, buying up different companies or a set of companies could give you special skills, to bride/threaten/sabatoge the company/other Corp. trying buy the company.  It was actually a really cool system, and though i never actually beat the real game, i would always play though this mini-game in my play-thoughs... Now if SE would just remake RS3 like they did RS1...
  • Avatar of Doppleganger
  • Split into many...
  • PipPip
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jun 16, 2002
  • Posts: 260
I was thinking about this, as well, as it ties into a greater philosophy I have about having the player indirectly affect the game world to improve design aspects as well as logical ones. The player is going to go and kill Blaggi the Giant Cave Dwarf because it's a quest and the player loves quests. Well, after he kills him, he's going to have leveled up from fighting Blaggi's minions, part of the Cave Dwarf Miners Union Local 26, so he'll need better items. Luckily, destroying Blaggi and his dirty union henchmen has allowed the city's honest non-union miners access to excellent iron ore, so in they go. The smiths sell better swords, now! This lets you reuse towns, since now the player is setting off in a different direction from the same point. This allows designers to focus on making a couple good towns rather than a plethora of totally interchangeable ones. Similar ideas are players opening merchant passes, shipping routes, et cetera, et cetera, to change the challenge of any given area rather than have each place he visits contain precisely one hardship. One of the reasons I like thinking about logical things and encourage others to do it isn't because I think realism is a must in every video game but because it forces your brain to think up interesting solutions to challenges you've created for yourself, rather than just write them off as being "just a game". The player usually appreciates the extra effort.

That would be a great way to expand on that scenario. One of the cool things, which you've basically stated, is that by thinking logically, the game will naturally develop its own architecture around the story. I think this delves more into story aspects than economic ones, like what sort of impact do economics have on one's story? What's interesting, is the sort of effect economics can have on a social situation in the real world, and how that can transgress into a game's story when interpreted from real-world applications. Such as the mining situation we've laid out.

Quote
This COULD be fun, but it sounds a bit like an expansion of what Morrowind did, and that was no fun at all. Each merchant had a set amount of gold each day, which you obviously wanted to get since it weighed nothing. Except some of the items sold for 60000 gold and the most merchants carried was 7000, or something. Which meant if you wanted it, you had to trade for their ENTIRE INVENTORY (in barter), then rest for 24 hours, and sell items piece by piece over the next couple days until you got it all and shrugged the heft of those items off. I'm not saying it wouldn't be easy to make a better system than that but the trick is in balancing it. You don't want the player to get swamped in an area because they are trying to level up to get past the next area, but need loads of potions to keep going, but you also don't want to make the system's effects so negligible that there is no point in implementing it, either. I mean, what if I really need thirty potions but the merchant only has ten? I'd have to wait around for him to get more.

This system would, however, lend itself well to a game that had lots of merchants all vying for their market share; one potion merchant sells out, and the next day all the other merchants raise their prices for health potions. This happened a lot in medieval times in local economies. It could also be interesting to see implemented in a sort of Uncharted Waters that was set entirely in one huge city where you are trying to make money as an adventurer. You've settled down, and are trying to run the best business in town by controlling the town's economy, all the while making gold slaying orcs for the city guard on the side. Hmm, could be interesting!

Yeah, Morrowind was pretty terrible in that regard. Even Oblivion maintained the same quirks iirc. But, that is specifically what I'm talking about when a game half-asses something like economics. You end up with some sort of number game that will eat up the player's time while they try to exploit it. In this case, it is straight-forward; you need to pump the merchant full of gold in order to get a greater amount of gold in return. The problem with Morrowind, was that there was no real place to sell all this amazing stuff you've found. As, all of the merchants were poor as dirt in comparison to your character in later levels. Introducing some characters who were interested in buying these items, and could afford them, would have solved this issue and could have potentially developed plot arcs as well. But, then you get the question of how much time can be devoted to such and such aspect. And, basically, introducing something like that would have eaten up valuable resources that could be spent elsewhere.

As far as the potion scenario entering that same realm, it is possible to create a situation where the likelihood of such would be improbable. One solution, would be to address the notion that potions are cheap and dispensable by increasing their effectiveness and their cost, and presenting the player with combat/adventuring situations where using them becomes strategic rather than simply life-sustaining. Under this plan, it would be possible for a merchant to better react to his dwindling potion supply, simply because the effects of which from the player are not as immediately detrimental to his stock. This is under the assumption that the player adheres to the artificial guidelines of what a potion is worth, however. In order to accurately present and impose this, would take skill on the part of the game designer. What this brings up, though, is a completely different game than your typical jrpg. I think, the deeper you go into the realm of presenting economic situations to the player, and balancing them out to prevent exploitations/nuissances,  the further you're going to get from a leisurely rpg. This is pretty well represented in the divide of rpgs that offer some rudimentary form of economics and those that don't.
  • Avatar of Terrorantula
  • It's Me, Picasso
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jul 7, 2009
  • Posts: 1083
I have to say some of these ideas sound interesting. The closest I'd gotten to anything like this in a game idea was pretty far from the full economics you're speaking of, but still a subversion of the normal fantasy tropes. In the setting, potions are made one of two ways- mass-produced in factories (Yes, I said POTION FACTORIES) that simply channel magic  from a crystal into prepared bottles of solution that slide by on a conveyor belt, or the old-fashioned way, by hand with lots of natural ingredients- artisanal, if you will.  The artisanal ones, are more expensive- not only because they're made in small batches with high-quality ingredients, but because they tend to give back more HP than their counterparts.. In fact, one of the party characters is studying under a healer to prepare her for eventually taking over her father's  potion-making  corporation- she hopes to raise their factory-made products to a somewhat higher standard.
And - a digression- a lot of the cheap potions are artificially flavored (Grape, strawberry, melon, etc) and some characters will either refuse to drink ones they dislike or get back less HP from them.  The witch is weak and you've got only artificial grape potion, which she despises- you're screwed.
Last Edit: September 11, 2009, 05:06:28 am by Terrus4
Everyone has the right to be himself; wise men know how to,when, and whether to navigate the boundary between their rights and those of others when they collide.