I've got no problems with dungeons, but if I may refer back to Rm2k3 games... If your dungeons are 30+ sizable maps of snake tunnels (one way with no alternate route or treasures) with battles that will leave you beaten near to the point of death, I think it's time to say adios to your game as I don't think anyone would be willing to go between here and there on the world map with beasts such as these in between.

Dungeons in RPGs are meant to be difficult areas you have to get through to reach the next area. That is what they are, by definition (rpg definition not real person's definition!). Sometimes, the game throws a boss at you with no dungeon and he is extra hard as a result. Sometimes, the game throws a dungeon at you because it wants that to be the challenge. If the dungeon isn't fun or it goes on to long, that is the game's fault.

Game Freak sucks a dick at game design. Sorry, they do. Pokemon is a really fun game that I enjoy a lot because of the inherent concept, but outside the battle engine and menus (including the Pokemon listings themselves, which are like a jRPGs wet dream) Game Freak makes no attempt to make the Pokemon games good. They suffer from horribly repetitive mapping, terrible layouts (as evidenced by having to backtrack areas OVER AND OVER because they wanted the player to use the "only jump down" cliff face for the nth time), and poor graphics. They also suffer from something that most jRPGs suffer from, which is the fact that it takes ten hours to do anything. Want to trade a Pokemon? I hope you like 19 cutscenes instead of the POKEMON JUST FUCKING BEING TRADED. The first Pokemon was no exception to this, but nobody noticed because a) it was new and b) you didn't have random encounters outside of the tall grass. Then you get to the Rock Cave and suddenly you have encounters everywhere and it's not funny any more. It has most of the bad features of Pokemon rolled up into one little package. And, because apparently they decided it wasn't bad enough that they'd up the encounter rate and have no safe areas, they decided to include two of the game's 150 Pokemon. Thanks, Game Freak. You suck.

Sorry, I didn't mean to rant about Game Freak there, but I am just saying: never base dungeon design off of Pokemon. There are good dungeons and bad dungeons, and pretty much every dungeon in Pokemon is bad. Again, I really enjoy Pokemon, but... ugh.



Dungeon Crawlers aren't even about traversing the same dungeons as in other RPGs. Like I said, dungeons are meant to move you slowly from A to B. They throw obstacles at you, but ultimately you emerge, battered and weak, into the light. The main idea in a Dungeon Crawler is to just... keep going down. And down. To see how far down you can get. Some games have a set number of levels which you can reach (the make your way out again), but some just keep generating harder and harder levels until it becomes impossible to descend further.

They are survival sims more than they are RPGs, really. You have to eat and sleep and not be beaten to death by monsters. Some Dungeon Crawlers don't even take place in Dungeons, but they are still so similar that to not call them a Dungeon Crawler would be a shame. There is that one set in Finland which is pretty much a Dungeon Crawler with no levels to it. Dungeon Crawlers are also procedurally generated, so each one is different. Part of the game is just exploring the Dungeon. There are no random encounters (except that every encounter is random, really) and you can run away from most, if you're lucky. Of course, if you run away there is always the chance that you'll turn a corner and that same monster will be there when you really don't want it to be.

So yeah: don't judge a Dungeon Crawler by jRPG standards. They are much closer to being Western P&P-influenced games, minus a storytelling DM. People like them because they are challenging and new each time they play. There are usually a huge number of options, so they're extremely replayable. They can also be played to a player's own speed, since typically time only passes when the player performs an action, so you can play them in the background, or try to plan, or rush head first into whatever situation may come along. They're also one of the only types of RPGs you can actually get "good" at, since it's not always about beating the most monsters or collecting the most gold. Sometimes, it's just about identifying warning signs and avoiding danger, or smart rationing of items to get you down another level.

I don't think Pokemon is designed nearly as bad as you are making it out sorry bro

Ugh yes it is why does it take me so long to use fly or swim? Why are there messages describing to me every minor detail of what my Pokemon is doing when I use one of those moves? I UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY DO LET ME USE THEM!!!

Those are bad (really bad) design decisions. Why do they exist? Why are the things that I use most so time consuming? If I had to use fly twice in the game, those prompts wouldn't be annoying. Have you ever tried trading Pokemon? There are about six billion prompts and mandatory waits between each transfer. If you load the game standing in front of the wi-fi connection, you have to save again before going in. Then you have to walk around slowly trying to find another trainer, who has to not talk to you otherwise the connection fails. Then you have to agree to enter the trading mode. Twice. Then you have to agree to the trade about three times, at which point a five minute cutscene takes place where the Pokeball FLIES INTO THE AIR or some shit. It takes way longer than they needed to mask transfer time. The whole process takes like ten minutes! That is not cool! The whole game is like this. Maybe I over exaggerated about the poor map design, but it leave a lot to be desired (especially interior spaces which are riddled with dead ends).

Also I am basing the graphics thing mostly on Pearl, which is hideous.

Unless you play Fallout, where the outside of the dungeons are just as dangerous as the insides ​.

Usually moreso because you can't just click on the building exit and be pretty much safe forever!

i thought dungeon crawlers were things like diablo2/dungeon runners/titan quest. Those are not hard at all, really tedious and boring, but i like finding loot and shit.

Ps: This is a discussion about Dungeons not the game design of Pokemon.

I know I'm sorry =(