Hardly, sure you can make good games in makers, just like you can make pretty games with stock graphics. But either way you are constrained by the limitations of the tools you are using to some extent. The end result is entirely dependant on how you use these tools. Making an engine or graphics from scratch will always be the better option, but only if you have the skills to do it well enough, and not everyone does.

If you concider RPG Makers DBS as the engines equivalent of RTP you should see what I'm getting at.

Of course there's always limitations, the hardware you're developing on could even be a limitation, and even using a full fledged programming language you may be unable to do certain things due to lack of available hardware (Even if I could write a program that used input from a microphone doesn't mean I can use that program when I don't have a microphone).  Everything has limitations.  However, the difference between the two are this:  if you want to make a certain game, it doesn't matter whether you use C++ or RPGmaker or what have you, you can still come out with the same end result.  In fact the user doesn't even have to know how you made it, you could make the same RPG in rm2k as you can in C++, one is just easier for the creator to use.  But, and here's the huge point, using RTP or ripped graphics is going to change the end result.  I may not know whether you coded a game in C++ or rpgmaker, but I am going to know when you used a bunch of Zelda graphics.  It completely changes the way the user sees the game.  You can't make that analogy the same for both of these things.

Also I know some of you dudes are not going to be happy with me for saying this but sometimes when you aren't able to do something it means you shouldn't.  If you are good at writing music and awful at singing, then you get someone to sing for you.  You don't put out a beautiful melody with atrocious singing out there and ask everyone what they think of it, if it's just a hobby you keep this bad copy to yourself because you admitted you were bad at it and you know it's bad.  People who use RTP and rips know it's not very cool to do so, and they do it anyway instead of just finding someone who IS good (and there are a lot of these people out there who like doing sprite shit but don't have the patience or skill to do the programming bits).  If you know you're using awful junk in your game, you can't be defensive when people call you out on it being bad--you made that decision to leave it in there.

Uh your argument kind of misses the point of this topic.  Of course people should practice, but the point is they're NOT, they're using rips and RTP graphics.  I'm all for people putting their own work out there and getting better at it, but that's not what this topic is about.  Instead people are putting rips in their games knowing they're dumb to use and they are not happy when other people point out what they already know--it looks awful.  It looks like you didn't even try.  If you can't be bothered to make your own, then you shouldn't just put overused shit in your game, you shouldn't be making a game if you can't be bothered with finding someone to do graphics or do them yourself.

My post was specifically for the people using RTP, I already made it clear that I enjoy handmade graphics even if they're practically stick figures.

Also I know some of you dudes are not going to be happy with me for saying this but sometimes when you aren't able to do something it means you shouldn't.  If you are good at writing music and awful at singing, then you get someone to sing for you.  You don't put out a beautiful melody with atrocious singing out there and ask everyone what they think of it, if it's just a hobby you keep this bad copy to yourself because you admitted you were bad at it and you know it's bad.  People who use RTP and rips know it's not very cool to do so, and they do it anyway instead of just finding someone who IS good (and there are a lot of these people out there who like doing sprite shit but don't have the patience or skill to do the programming bits).  If you know you're using awful junk in your game, you can't be defensive when people call you out on it being bad--you made that decision to leave it in there.

ok i've agreed with your points so far but this is just plain wrong. someone bad at singing but still recording a song is not like someone bad at spriting using rtp or rips. The fact is if this theoretical bad singer keeps on singing his songs he will eventually get better. that is how people get good. there is no SPECIAL GENE that makes someone good at something, its practice, all practice. People ask me this when i draw something and they are like 'WOW THATS GREAT HOW COME YOUR GOOD AT DRAWING???' I would never say i'm that great at drawing, but through practice I have developed a (small) talent for drawing stuff. all my life i have been playing piano, is it a surprise I am now talented at writing songs? it is only through practice people get better. through your logic, someone learning to.... play and instrument for instance goes to take a first lesson, hears how bad he is then gives up. noone would be good at anything!

But to link this back into topic, everyone who uses RTP or rips because they say they cant sprite, is just making sure they will NEVER be good at spriting as long as they do that. If you start making games with bad graphics, you will pick up little tricks and by the time you finish you will be a better spriter, no matter how bad you were when you started. Anyone who says they haven't got the talent to make a chipset/charset is just saying that because they haven't got the talent to make an rtp-standard chipset/charset. It doesn't matter how bad something is if it is what you want, no matter how bad you think it is. I'm sure everyone, no matter how talented, sees their own work as something sub-standard to what they 'saw in their heads'. Just keep going and you'll get better, and people will appreciate the fact you took the time to put effort into your work.

EDIT: jaller posted while i was typing. damn.

ok i've agreed with your points so far but this is just plain wrong. someone bad at singing but still recording a song is not like someone bad at spriting using rtp or rips. The fact is if this theoretical bad singer keeps on singing his songs he will eventually get better. that is how people get good. there is no SPECIAL GENE that makes someone good at something, its practice, all practice. People ask me this when i draw something and they are like 'WOW THATS GREAT HOW COME YOUR GOOD AT DRAWING???' I would never say i'm that great at drawing, but through practice I have developed a (small) talent for drawing stuff. all my life i have been playing piano, is it a surprise I am now talented at writing songs? it is only through practice people get better. through your logic, someone learning to.... play and instrument for instance goes to take a first lesson, hears how bad he is then gives up. noone would be good at anything!

But to link this back into topic, everyone who uses RTP or rips because they say they cant sprite, is just making sure they will NEVER be good at spriting as long as they do that. If you start making games with bad graphics, you will pick up little tricks and by the time you finish you will be a better spriter, no matter how bad you were when you started. Anyone who says they haven't got the talent to make a chipset/charset is just saying that because they haven't got the talent to make an rtp-standard chipset/charset. It doesn't matter how bad something is if it is what you want, no matter how bad you think it is. I'm sure everyone, no matter how talented, sees their own work as something sub-standard to what they 'saw in their heads'. Just keep going and you'll get better, and people will appreciate the fact you took the time to put effort into your work.

I think that I presented myself wrong on this, probably because I'm sick and can't think clearly, but I meant it like this:  the person is not willing to improve themselves, like you said here:

But to link this back into topic, everyone who uses RTP or rips because they say they cant sprite, is just making sure they will NEVER be good at spriting as long as they do that.

Which I agree 100% with.  So, given this type of person (which this topic is about), it is better for them to not use their half-assed attempt (i.e. rips), and instead find someone else who can do this for them.  I didn't mean for this to apply to EVERYONE, this only applies to this type of person who is not TRYING to improve themselves.  They aren't willing to, and given their two options left they choose the worse one out of laziness.

edit: also

You don't seem to understand how much extra effort and time it costs though, especially for someone who has to learn it all.

get over it!!!! if you want to make a good game you've got to put IN that extra effort and time, otherwise don't be upset when people think your rip-filled game is dumb.  I mean, when you were born nobody promised you guys that you would be able to make games, this is why so many awful games are made because people don't realize that it takes A REALLY LONG TIME to make a good game.  It takes years for professional teams to make good games, how much longer do you think it takes for an individual or handful of people to make one?  If this is what you want to do, then you do it.  Sorry that it takes time and effort that most people can't find, but that's just how it is.  Building furniture takes more time and effort than I'm willing to put into, so I don't do it.  But, people that are passionate about these things FIND the time.  That's just life man.  None of us were ever guaranteed the chance to make a game, that's all on your shoulders when you decide to make one.  You can't use that as an excuse to lower your standards.

if you guys put as much effort into making graphics for your games as you are arguing why you're too lazy to do time rpgmaker sprites then ... I'm too lazy, this sentence can finish itself, and without the need of stealing lines from a commercial game.

if you guys put as much effort into making graphics for your games as you are arguing why you're too lazy to do time rpgmaker sprites then ... I'm too lazy, this sentence can finish itself, and without the need of stealing lines from a commercial game.

this tickled me.

@velfarre - yeah after reading your post just above mine i think i see what you meant to say. we cool now, k?

yeah, we cool bro, it's hard to focus when your head is full of snot so i had a hard time getting my point across correctly 

You do realise that most of the popular games on this forum are "rip filled" right?

Noooooo, they will tear you down right here. Because how many of these popular games are actually popular outside of this forum or RM in general?

I think the problem really isn't too much with rips or whatever. The problem is the RM community is known for not doing much and wait for their resources to come to them. They've taken from the same pool of resources for way too many years (seriously you still go to charas project and use bobthetaco rips for the 2k3 users), and scripts from other users to make their games. It's become so bad that we can all point out exactly where each resource came from. It's like having bag full of candy. It's nice at first to have all of these resources here, but you're not ever going to get new candy if you keep searching in that bag, and all of your games will taste the same.

awful...analogy...

But yeah give your game a spark. The Way, Sunset Over Imdahl, Exit Fate, and a bunch others are popular for their spark of originality. Don't settle for what's just available to you.

This topic was a fun read.

I think the problem really isn't too much with rips or whatever. The problem is the RM community is known for not doing much and wait for their resources to come to them. They've taken from the same pool of resources for way too many years (seriously you still go to charas project and use bobthetaco rips for the 2k3 users), and scripts from other users to make their games. It's become so bad that we can all point out exactly where each resource came from. It's like having bag full of candy. It's nice at first to have all of these resources here, but you're not ever going to get new candy if you keep searching in that bag, and all of your games will taste the same.

awful...analogy...

this was actually one of the better analogies of the topic tbh, at least it compared the right things

IMO, using rips takes nothing away unless the finished product is crappy.

unfortunately most of the people who aren't willing to do their own graphics and/or find someone to do the graphics aren't making good games anyway, so it's more like the rips/rtp are a sign that "hey guys i didn't put enough time into this overall"

it's not a 100% thing but more often than not that's what you're going to find!

edit:

Noooooo, they will tear you down right here. Because how many of these popular games are actually popular outside of this forum or RM in general?

This is true too.  The problem with looking for critique among other gamemakers (especially when it comes to rm2k) is that they will be comparing your game to theirs.  If it's better than what they have, you have an awesome game.  This means almost everyone is going to get praise from someone.  A lot of these games aren't going to be seen as being so good among people who have nothing to do with gamemaking, and will be comparing your game to other games they've played.  When your game is popular among both groups, then maybe that would mean something but I can't remember the last time someone told me "hey check out this rtp game, so cool".

yeah, there is also a massive element of the fact the usually people who use the rtp or rips are actually just bad at making games.

It's topics like these that make me believe that the entire RM community is all talk no action.

I used RTP/rips because it suited my goals.  I purposely refrained from making my goals overly ambitious because that would be time consuming for my fun little side hobby.  I enjoyed making it and I finished it - so my goal was met.  The fact that people have played my couple of games AND enjoyed themselves is an awesome bonus.

So, did I lower my expectations and standards to reach my goal?  You bet.  But I reached my goal.  Now that I have that under my belt I can try bigger and better things.  It's not always all or nothing.

They are pretty awful.  They look worse than pretty much any game I've paid to play since the Super Nintendo came out.  Using somebody elses' graphics in all likelihood results in graphics superior to the likes of FF4, on par with FF6.  Essentially, some of the hand drawn graphics that have been posted would result in a game that people outside this forum wouldn't want to play, and a lot of web resources could be used to make games that people outside this forum would want to play.  Holding everything to be equal, I would sooner play a game whose graphics were downloaded from an RPG Maker resource site than I would play a game with ugly custom graphics.

I'd rather make a game that nobody played that I can call a product of myself. Isn't the whole point of being an independent developer the fact that you don't have to worry about pleasing an audience?