i've been talking about it in the context of any type of game, not just rpgs.

This thread is sort of pointless but not for the reasons other people mentioned.

It just seems pointless to argue so intensely over graphics in a genre where Gameplay, Storyline, Character Devolopment, etc are way more important than graphics. The first rpgs were pen and paper where the only 'graphics' were in your mind.

It isn't about eye candy, it's about mind candy. And the people who care so badly about graphics are missing the point of what rpgs are about.

first of all if someone has put all the time into those things they probably put the time into the graphics

second, i don't want to be reading the next great story while staring at zelda sprites, don't you see why this is a bad idea????  you may be telling me a great story but it's hard to change the fact that i'm staring at link, you can't use such iconic things without it detracting from your work

That's not the same thing I'm saying at all man.  I love Wizardry, fuck I love text adventures.  It's not quality of graphics that's the thing here.  There's a difference between looking at bland graphics and looking at graphics you already associate with other games and characters.  You can't tell me about this amazing hero named Bill when I know I'm looking at Link.  It completely detracts from the story and everything else you have built up when what I'm seeing I already associate with something else.

I don't mind stuf like tilesets and vehicles but characters must be from either a source I am unfamilar with or should not closely resemble the original. Like I don't want to see Cloud from FF7 running around all giddy and full of energy because to me, he was dull and slouchy all the time. I prefer to see them as I remember them (even if I am wrong ;)).

how could you even tell he is running in an energetic manner from a 24x24 sprite

how could you even tell he is running in an energetic manner from a 24x24 sprite

now this is just idiotic. srsly.

konix show him how much of an idiot he is

I definitely disagree, there.  If a person has a story of substance to offer, and possesses the faculties to create a competent and compelling game, it may be that they just can't sprite.  Sprites really aren't "substance," that's really one of the least substantial aspects of an RPG.  I mean, good-looking sprites are important to me, but that's not the substance of the game.

Then they find someone who can, we've been over this already.  Someone with a lot to offer is going to go that extra step, there is no reason to put so much time into something just to skimp out on something that creates a very big first impression on players.  Sure, graphics aren't that big of a deal in the game itself, but if you're looking at a site about a game that's the first thing thrown in your face.  For a lot of players it can determine whether or not they're downloading your game.  You're doing yourself a huge disservice by throwing in someone else's graphics in your theoretical godsend of a game.  And frankly someone who put that kind of time and dedication into such a compelling game is probably someone who isn't going to use rips--you don't put that much work and originality into the rest just to not be consistent and use original graphics.

I think I already said this (or something like it) in another post but if every other aspect of your game is that compelling, you will be able to find someone to do graphics.  It's the people who half-assed it in the first place that whine about not being able to find someone to work with them on their awful project.

hellion looks more fun

Whoever is arguing about having a great game, but being unable to make decent graphics, here is my advice.

Make the graphics anyway. Sometimes badly drawn graphics do a game 100x better than graphics that look good on the surface, but players will immediately recognize them coming from another game. If the graphics take too long, just do them with a limited palette or in NES style. (if they still take too long, you are either not dedicated enough, or your game is too big. The good news is that it's always either one of these reasons.)

The high majority of games with graphics people recognize as stolen will be overlooked as "too amateur to waste my time playing", while some of the greatest, most recognized indie games are done so because they have graphics their five year old sister could have made. You are right in saying that graphics are just substance. They do make the first impression, and if you are an amateur, then you shouldn't be afraid of that being your first impression. The point is that if you want your first impression to be that of a creative game developer (as opposed to an uncreative one), then you simply have to have graphics that give some indication of something "created". Something someone else created years ago just doesn't count, no matter how much it suits the look you envisioned for your game.

EDIT:You were right about graphics being just stuff, filling, not pivotal for the purpose behind the game. It's like pie in that respect. Any sort of filling will do, but the pie will be defined by it simply because that's what the people taste biting into it. (and flavor is as important to games as it is pie, probably more so) You don't want them biting into something that is 10 years old either, that's not healthy and will lead to people not finishing the pie in fear of food poisoning.