Topic: Do you believe in the Higgs boson? (Read 997 times)

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I honestly don't. I don't believe there is such a thing. I have no understanding of physics. If you do and think there is a higgs boson somewhere, please tell us why you think it exists (I'm looking at dada but anyone else is fine too). Educate the masses.
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I'll not TAKE ANYTHING you write like this seriously because it looks dumb
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isn't that a monster from Final Fantasy VI or something
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The Standard Model is blatantly incomplete. We know this. It will likely go through a million iterations before we have a complete understanding of the physics of our universe, or at least as close as we can come to it. Whether or not the Higgs Boson exists or not is a pretty big topic. The Standard Model says that it should exist, but if we never find any evidence of this then it will be time to move on to alternative explanations. Eventually it comes down to: "Is it more reasonable to postulate the existence of the Higgs Boson than to accept alternative models of mass?"
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Gotta love the title of the thread. You ask the right question -- do you BELIEVE in the thing? Hah! You hit the nail right on the head.

It's hard to make a statement on it yet, considering I don't have the substantial mathematical background to grasp the concept of...what was it -- a 14-dimensional universe? But following what Farmrush mentioned, it would be smart to remember that this is ultimately just a theory. Kuhn, a philosopher, once wrote an essay on scientific revolutions, explaining that the way we come to common consensus about how our universe works, and the principles which underly its machinery, ultimately stems from politics and convention. For example, when the scientific community was genuinely comparing the heliocentric theory to the geocentric theory, there were literally opposing camps of people who believed in one or the other (kinda like the opposing camps of belief in re: modern physics). It wasn't until someone noticed that the geocentric theory could not accurately predict the revolutions of the moons of mars that the heliocentric theory began to replace it, and only then after religion finally decided that man didn't HAVE to be in the center of the universe. This goes to show you that, when you really think about it, all science is is what the majority of powerful groups of people believe to be true. Science is CONVENTION, not TRUTH. Therefore, I am naturally disinclined to believe in modern mass theory. Or really, in anything in general. I don't think the Truth (with a capital T) is actually as black and white as our senses purport it to be.

I wouldn't say I'm an Occam's Razor kinda guy, but when it comes to the social element of scientific convention, the simplest explanation really ends up being what is 'true.' We see that when our third grade science teachers told us that "this lightbulb is giving off photons." "What's a photon?" "It's a particle of light." We agree, but then we learn that this answer was a total copout when we find out in middle school that it has wavelike properties. Then when we hit college, we realize that it might not even exist; that it's a goddamn convention because we REALLY can't explain what electromagnetism is, other than with relativism, which isn't necessarily true according to the guy who's presenting that new theory of gravity (ironically enough, he assumes some premises of the Standard Model...which stems from partly from relativity?).

Anyway, the whole Higgs Boson thing sounds like this:
"Right, so we FINALYL have a theory about how mass works."
"ORLY?!"
"It really is a great theory. But this theory assumes that THIS PARTICLE exists. We can't find it. BUT IT'S GOT TO BE THERE, GODDAMMIT!"

Yeah. Right.

Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 01:14:05 am by Juris
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i think its irrelevant, because there are people working on theories based on it and people working on other theories. science by nature works with whatever theories explain the world sufficiently. the scientific world admits everything is a theory so to have a debate about whether or not we think a particle exists is probably pretty worthless since it forces someone to assume that one or the other is true, but they are kind of in a gray area now, so i think the only reasonable course of action would be to do what the scientific community has done and just admit we dont know but are looking into it.

also juris, to say that science is really a social convention is kind of ignorant.

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It wasn't until someone noticed that the geocentric theory could not accurately predict the revolutions of the moons of mars that the heliocentric theory began to replace it

you pretty much just disproved your own point with that statement. a new scientific discovery changed science, not social convention.
Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 02:18:54 am by Von Woofen
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I don't think Juris is wrong in saying that science is a social convention, because in effect, before it is law, it is convention. There are only a handful of applied laws, and science to a great extent owes its foundation to these laws. Beyond that, just about every area of science has gray areas that are being decided upon and rewritten by scientists regularly. An excellent example of this can be found in paleontology and geology, both of which have never actually formalized proper groupings and dating of significant events in their respective fields of study.

Even so, it is fair to argue that science as a whole is more firmly grounded than most of what we would consider a social convention. The fact that it takes a consensus of educated scientists to tell us fact from fiction in utterly complex situations, however, speaks to the socially ingrained merits of science as a whole.
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I think physicist and philosopher Thomas Kuhn, from whom I derive my perhaps ignorant conclusions, is right on two accounts:

1.) Statements of fact are facts only when society agrees that they are. For all intents and purposes, when the geocentric theory was around, it was a fact that the sun revolved around the earth. To think otherwise was blasphemous. Even though geocentricism did not reflect how the universe ACTUALLY works, you must agree that society can only operate in the parameters of what it knows. What we determine to be fact, therefore, is independent of what is actually the case. In other words, what we determine to be fact is inherently subjective social convention.

2.) The basis upon which someone adheres to what they perceive to be correct is ultimately a leap of faith. There are several ways to make sense of the world. You can make an outright assumption and hope for the best. Or, you can rationalize inductively with your previous experience. Finally, you can test it, via scientific method. Each and every one of these ways requires a sense of 'faith' to work. That's clearly the case with the first way -- you just assume it works and move on. The second case is more profound because you have to leap across the problem of induction (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_problem_of_induction). Finally, faith applies to the third case in three accounts.

First, you have faith that the scientific method 'works.' That faith is fostered in part by your previous experience. Once, you touched the stove while it was burning. You quickly discover how it feels to be burnt. You hypothesize that hot = bad. Then you watched brother touch stove and experience the same thing. Therefore, you both conclude that hot = bad. Pretty much the scientific method right there! Observation, hypothesis, experiment, replication, confirmation. So, based off of your past experience, you conclude that methodology is the 'most' correct way to go about understanding the world. Little do you know that this first premise is made by ignoring the problem of induction.

Second, the scientific method requires replication, which is inherently subjective. Basically, it's not a fact if you don't have powerful people backing you up. When Galileo claimed that the world revolved around the sun, the Pope got fucknuts crazy and forced him to recant. Galileo was wrong. This is clearly a case where something isn't fact unless someone else (with power) says it is. Later, when the church lost its authority and people noted that the geocentric theory could not take care of certain anomalies (like the seemingly helical path Mars took through the sky), they concluded that heliocentric theory was correct. They didn't have spaceships or airplanes or satellite imaging back then. It just made more sense to them. Never mind that the heliocentric theory back then did not actually predict planetary orbits accurately until Brahms and Kepler, a century later, who came up with the concept of elliptical orbits. So basically, the older heliocentric model ALSO failed to account for Mars's orbit exactly, because they still thought the orbits were circular. In fact, the followers of the geocentric theory actually came back with an explanation of Mars's path; they believed that mars wasn't fixed in its celestial sphere, but rather it was stuck into a circle inscribed in its side, which rotated as its sphere rotated, accounting for the path aberration. It was slightly less accurate than what the heliocentrists claimed, but both were very inaccurate and on face value each theory looked plausible. Yet one theory rose to power, even before Kepler and Brahms even played a part. The only conceivable reason is increased secularity and the Church's fall from power. As demonstrated, social conventions even exist in the basic premise of replication in the scientific method..

Finally, the scientific method requires observation, which is also inherently subjective. When you see an object, that object exists ONLY in the context of your observation, because it is impossible for you to prove that it exists if you are dead. For an object to be considered 'existent,' you've got to 'be' there, 'thinking' that it exists. There is the possibility that it does not actually exist, of course, but you assume that it does based on faith. When you're standing in the middle of the road in the middle of the night and you see some headlights, you jump the fuck out of the way. You don't stand there wondering about the crux between epistemology and metaphysics. You assume that it's there and jump! That is a good example of the proverbial leap of faith.

I don't know how else to explain this except with the following sentiment: Everything you believe to be true is ultimately faith. You have faith that your numbers 'work.' You have faith that hot = bad. You have faith in the scientific method. You have faith in the idea that what you experience can be cross-applied to future experiences. You have faith in the idea that following the scientific method brings you closer to how the universe works. And when the headlights come, you have enough faith to jump the fuck away.

Most importantly, you have faith in your society's scientific conventions. Do you really know whether carbon dating works? How it works? Or how about your wristwatch? Do you really know whether that wristwatch actually subtends the timespan of a second when it says it does? How about modern physics? Do you have faith in the Higgs Boson? Society puts a lot of pressure on science to produce truths it can believe. Science, subjectivity, and society, at least in my perhaps ignorant opinion, and in Kuhn's, are inextricably entwined.
Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 04:23:47 am by Juris
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no not f you consder thfod massless or massve jssf t had n the event of schwartzchld.
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Yeah, your points are perhaps correct on some "technical" level. But i live in a world. if the world i live in is false, fuck me, but its the only world i have. its the only world anyone has. science isnt trying to say THIS IS TRUTH, its trying to say "this explains the phenomena of the world we experience the best". your point misinterprets the goal of science and is also going in two different directions. first you are saying science is based on social acceptance of ideas and secondly you are saying it is all based on faith. i cant debate this properly cause you are all over the place. also you keep using the example of heliocentrism which only is relevant to science in a certain era, not the entirety of science and certainly not science today. also, you are ignoring that fact that just because a society can force its ideas on its people doesn't make them the best theory to explain the most phenomena. science is the theory that explains the phenomena of the world the best. your base assumption of what science is is extremely ignorant. SCIENCE PRODUCES THEORYS THAT EXPLAIN PHENOMENA MOST ACCURATELY. ultimate undeniable truth isnt a factor in science.
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you're all fat babes rollng around n turds and sht. and by babes  mean the step before toddlers/tots whchever comes frst
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now I thought it said Farmrush Theory and I was like really excited
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man i love particle physics and stuff but i just finished a couple hour's worth of AP Chemistry homework about that sort of thing, so i don't feel like typing up anything intelligent right now. :\ godspeed, others
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Yeah, your points are perhaps correct on some "technical" level. But i live in a world. if the world i live in is false, fuck me, but its the only world i have. its the only world anyone has. science isnt trying to say THIS IS TRUTH, its trying to say "this explains the phenomena of the world we experience the best". your point misinterprets the goal of science and is also going in two different directions. first you are saying science is based on social acceptance of ideas and secondly you are saying it is all based on faith. i cant debate this properly cause you are all over the place. also you keep using the example of heliocentrism which only is relevant to science in a certain era, not the entirety of science and certainly not science today. also, you are ignoring that fact that just because a society can force its ideas on its people doesn't make them the best theory to explain the most phenomena. science is the theory that explains the phenomena of the world the best. your base assumption of what science is is extremely ignorant. SCIENCE PRODUCES THEORYS THAT EXPLAIN PHENOMENA MOST ACCURATELY. ultimate undeniable truth isnt a factor in science.
I am really just talking about the technical level. Obviously there is a pragmatism to NOT eating the same red berries that other people eat and die from, just on the basis of real-world observation. My point is the technicality. Modern science is inundated with technicalities. I mean, TECHNICALLY, I am comprised of subatomic particles, and each and every one of those particles has the probability of spontaneously disappearing and reappearing in the other room. There is a distinct statistical probability of that happening...iirc, the probability is a factor of 10^(23). What -- am I gonna bank on that? No. So yeah, I agree with your point about 'living in the real world.' That's pragmatism.

Going down to your point about social acceptance of ideas and faith, I don't think that's all over the place. Actually, I'm pointing out the root of convention, which is faith. My line of reasoning is perfectly linear.

About heliocentricism being specific to just one era, I'm willing to extend my analysis to any topic of your choosing. I invite you to pick one.

About 'society forcing ideas on people,' I'm not at all saying that the theories society chooses to uphold are necessarily the 'best.' I'm saying simply that this is the case -- social convention has a huge say in what becomes fact.

About your argument that 'science just aims to explain stuff in the best way possible', I assume you want 'best' to mean 'whatever conforms to reality most precisely and accurately.' That said, that is completely besides the point. I am trying to argue that the methodology by which they determine what best adheres to reality ultimately rests on a matter of faith, and furthermore, they declare it to be the case by means of convention.

Having refuted your points (and agreed with one of them), I fail to see where I am being extremely ignorant. I hope you'll check your premises, and perhaps take me up on the offer to explain my analysis with another example of your own choosing.

EDIT:
I know you're writing a reply, but I do have to note something about your last statement that 'science has nothing to do with absolute truth.' I'd like you to know that I completely agree, and that I've actually mentioned that when I said
Science is CONVENTION, not TRUTH.
I actually don't think there is a debate. We pretty much agree on the same points. We agreed on pragmatism, and on how my analysis at least refers to heliocentricism (you didn't refute it, at least). We also agreed on...you know...my main point that science and truth are separate entities. If I'm ignorant, then you are, too.
Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 05:40:15 am by Juris
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I am really just talking about the technical level. Obviously there is a pragmatism to NOT eating the same red berries that other people eat and die from, just on the basis of real-world observation. My point is the technicality. Modern science is inundated with technicalities. I mean, TECHNICALLY, I am comprised of subatomic particles, and each and every one of those particles has the probability of spontaneously disappearing and reappearing in the other room. There is a distinct statistical probability of that happening...iirc, the probability is a factor of 10^(23). What -- am I gonna bank on that? No. So yeah, I agree with your point about 'living in the real world.' That's pragmatism.

Going down to your point about social acceptance of ideas and faith, I don't think that's all over the place. Actually, I'm pointing out the root of convention, which is faith. My line of reasoning is perfectly linear.

About heliocentricism being specific to just one era, I'm willing to extend my analysis to any topic of your choosing. I invite you to pick one.

About 'society forcing ideas on people,' I'm not at all saying that the theories society chooses to uphold are necessarily the 'best.' I'm saying simply that this is the case -- social convention has a huge say in what becomes fact.

About your argument that 'science just aims to explain stuff in the best way possible', I assume you want 'best' to mean 'whatever conforms to reality most precisely and accurately.' That said, that is completely besides the point. I am trying to argue that the methodology by which they determine what best adheres to reality ultimately rests on a matter of faith, and furthermore, they declare it to be the case by means of convention.


Having refuted your points (and agreed with one of them), I fail to see where I am being extremely ignorant. I hope you'll check your premises, and perhaps take me up on the offer to explain my analysis with another example of your own choosing.



a) its very pragmatic to agree with my pragmatism. good choice.

b)i wasnt saying your idea that fact was based on faith was all over the place. i was saying your total argument had two thesises and thus was misdirected.  but also, by your definition, everything is faith, which fails to be relevant. im not saying you are wrong, im saying its not worth talking about because if we assume everything is faith its a mayas veil type deal and we might as well just deny the world and meditate until we die.

c)i could give you any example but they all will support me. anything debated in science has ULTIMATELY been "proven" by some fact that came about after the debate. relativity for instance. many ideas of relativity were proven after the fact. clearly every unknown is debated in the scientifc community, but that is the point, and ultimately those points are solved by science. as an answer to your question i would pose the question, "what is a scientific theory that was debated and ultimately decided by society instead of experiment?"

d)i agree. the winners write history.  but that is a thing of the past. we have reached an age of information fluidity where nothing is lost (or to be more accurate, compared to the past, we retain much more knowledge about events although the knowledge may still be skewed). but social convention still fails to be science. even if a scientist like galileo bends a knee to authority it doesn't make the ruling class' view science. science is, by definition, based on the regularities of this world, whether this world be a solid fact or a leap of faith.

e)i think this idea is obviously wrong. the scientific method has proven itself by scientific method. it has worked over and over again. and the ideas it produces accurately represent reality. again we come to the concept of whether you want to live in this world or assume we live in the dream of a dream of a dream of a dream of giant who picks berries and masturbates furiously as a vocation. so we can either observe the patterns of our world and make meaning of them, or we can assume everything is meaningless and kill ourselves. obviously either is equally viable, but i, personally, like to explore the world rather then be a miserable fuck and kill myself.

Having refuted your points (and agreed with one of them), I fail to see where I am being extremely ignorant. I hope you'll check your premises, and agree with me entirely.

EDITED: for grammatical integrity.
Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 05:57:10 am by Von Woofen
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whatever all this reality is not real shite is just to distract us from the fact that we're weak and nerdy and speculate that we might go into some weird sailor moon mode at any moment... like our particles and shit

but seriously feels like 'whoa something interesting could start happening like right now... now... maybe now' lost my train of thought

just go enjoy rain or something
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in summary: i am not denying the power of socially powerful figures to define the commonly accepted ideas of an era. i am saying that the ideas that explain the world best, explain the world best, and are based on the state of the world we live in are the definition of science. im not denying that everything can technically be chalked up to faith.

IM SAYING the world works in patterns and science is the revelation of these patterns. how you can argue with that is beyond me. science has no pretense of being ultimate fact, but is also beyond social influence by nature. i can see your point if you want to say that socially powerfully influence how people view science, but that does not make those views actual science. that is what makes scientists scientists, they adhere to a common pattern in the world that transcends language and race.

yes, the social norms of an age severely influences the ideas of the people in that age. that does not make those ideas science and science has been, since its inception, defined only by ideas procured by the scientific method.
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whatever all this reality is not real shite is just to distract us from the fact that we're weak and nerdy and speculate that we might go into some weird sailor moon mode at any moment... like our particles and shit

but seriously feels like 'whoa something interesting could start happening like right now... now... maybe now' lost my train of thought

just go enjoy rain or something

i think you might like this video


sorry took me like twenty minutes to get the right video
Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 06:21:59 am by Von Woofen
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ahaha that was a very sarcastic post except I do hate statements like that like whoa there's a 1/10000000000000000 chance we could all spontaneously combust at this moment it's like people who believe in 2012 just think about other things instead of wankery like that seriously it's like masturbating over scientific possibilities that aren't going to happen anyway
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a.) Pragmatism is a pretty cool place to be.

b.) I'll try to keep my arguments more to the point in the future. The faith argument was probably a red herring I guess, but I think it's a good addition because it's the premise of my convention point.

c.) I actually disagree that anything has been 'proven' to the degree I'd like it to be. Like, I'd really, really like to be able to carbon date something for myself someday. And maybe understand special relativity. Etc. But 'the degree to which I'd like it to be' is just semantics. Obviously I don't have the time to do any of that stuff. Anyway, let's talk about relativity then. Relativity is currently being disputed by the new theory of gravity being presented by Petre Horava (http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=splitting-time-from-space). Relativity does not account for certain anomalies in quantum theory, whereas the new theory of gravity claims that it does. I'd like to remind you that this is much like how geocentricism did not accurately account for mars's orbital path, but heliocentricism did more accurately. Relativity by no means has been 'solved.' We find only aspects of it have proven true, like how space and time are connected in lieu of the spaceship clock vs. earth clock experiment, if you are willing to put faith in the experiment. Relativity by no means explains everything though, so it is unfinished. Furthermore, there exists the possibility that the things relativity does explain are due to something else completely besides. I know I don't like to bank on statistical probabilities, but we could be just as far away from the truth as the geocentrists were.

d.) I agree with your point in lieu of that last sentence, insofar as you allow for the possibility that the world may be a leap of faith.

e.) Hahaha dream of a dream of a dream....I fucking hate Descartes, just like how I fucking hated Inception. However, I disagree with the false dichotomy you bring up -- that either it's the case I realize that the world is pragmatic and has meaning or it's the case I commit suicide. Hell, I DO believe science is pragmatic, and I can still be a miserable fuck and kill myself because I think nothing has inherent meaning. It's not an either-or scenario. That aside, I still think pragmatism ultimately rests on convention.

By the way, I agree with you entirely because my own premises collapse on themselves. If I were to adhere to my own premises, I would have to admit that that adherence is based on faith. Because earlier in the topic I said that I didn't put much stock into the Standard Theory just because of that faith, I have to cross-apply that sentiment to my own arguments. Therefore I'm asking for you not to put any stock in mine.

Damn it.
Last Edit: October 12, 2010, 06:35:44 am by Juris
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yeah i get that special relativity is in question because quantum mechanics and relativity do not reconcile and that is the basis of modern physics and string theory. my point remains valid though, that errors in science have been proven exclusively by new discoveries in science rather than any sort of social input. and your point just plays to the strengths of my point, which is that science doesnt assume anything as fact and rather views everything as a theory so to condemn science for falsely proving something is futile.

and also, yes, clearly the only options arent to adhere strictly to science or to kill yourself, but the only options ARE to either accept the world as fact or to not do so. personally, to not accept the world as fact makes me question the relevance of my existence, and thus i find it very important to my psychological health to view the world as fact.

relevant to you last point, there is a possibility, based in entropy, that our universe at this moment has just appeared out of no where, but if that is so it undermines all the concepts that lead us to the concept of entropy, so it is only worthwhile to assume that our world is consistent. and that shows the same flaw in your premise that you yourself pointed out, being, probably obviously to you, that if the idea that everything is based on faith would therefore be based on faith.

also, i have never taken an actual class in physics so feel free to one up me! hahah