Dev - RM2k3 What steps should I take when creating an RPG? (Read 740 times)

  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jun 14, 2005
  • Posts: 27
It's kinda sad that art students are giving out advice for software engineers.

Not really sure how to take that comment... at best it's irrelevant, unless we were discussing art or software engineering. In this  instance we are referring to game design. If I were giving advice on software engineering I'd half understand, but even then, Technical Art does entail tools programming, so not really.

As to the advice itself:
I'd suggest writing all ideas down. In retrospect, you will always find ideas you thought were good, to be total crap, and vice versa. Brainstorming is a good starting point for any design endeavor, and you really don't want to have a filter from your brain to the paper (or word processor) at this point.

Comrade!
  • Avatar of Biggles
  • I know your secrets
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: May 5, 2005
  • Posts: 688
I'm obviously not telling him to go pitch the game to a game exec on an elevator lol. It's a simple concept, and it's used commonly.  The idea is that if you couldn't pitch your idea in that length of time, then it's too complicated or you don't have a solid enough theme.

On the second one: To ANY game designer, the  Design Doc is THE primary tool.  It's bad advice to say "don't make one". At least if he wants to make a good game - hobby or not.

And I'm a game designer, not a software engineer, but I will soon have a technical art degree.
nah not every game designer uses The Official Game Design Document. there's a lot of game designers, assuming you don't just mean people who design games in a professional context. also usually when you refute a claim you should use something other than appeal to authority, especially your own authority. i know that design documents are talked a lot about by american industry guys and that they take them really seriously, swear by them etc but i don't really buy it. i think that it's a product of the kind of professional culture that games are usually developed in plus bleedover from software engineering's obsession with 'formally documenting' everything and formally proving nothing. if you want to make a particular kind of painting, a formal painting document may also be useful but it relies on you buying into the Formal Painting Document style and getting your painting team together and coordinating meetings about the painting to make sure that you have an A team painting when you're through. or you imagine yourself doing that because you want to be in the painting industry. but to claim that you know the One True Style in which to produce artefacts (items? pieces? objects?) of a media as new as games is utterly absurd.

also i said (mentally) in the middle of my sentence to indicate that i did understand the 'elevator pitch' exercise. maybe i phrased it poorly but basically what i meant was "you should only really buy into games industry dogma if you hate yourself and love money."

if you can't think for yourself and make decisions about when techniques are and aren't appropriate using evidence and reason then you can probably still make an okay game. but i don't think that game development is entirely about the end product. game development is also enjoyable in and of itself, and when you're a hobbyist you have the opportunity to research, experiment, and explore. sure, absolutely look at what other people are doing but don't be restrained to it. the people that invented whichever golden magical process/idea is fashionable this week sure weren't.
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jun 14, 2005
  • Posts: 27
Well, I understand where you're coming from, but I stick by the design doc as the most important tool to make a good game.
Sure, if he just wants to make a game with no goal or purpose just for him to play, then by all means neglect it- there is nothing wrong with that, it's fun to sometimes do it, I used to when I started using RM2K. If he's going to make a game that others will play- he will have to translate his ideas into something that's fun and enjoyable, and that doesn't happen by accident- it happens by design. And games are not new, they have been around for as long as people have been able to communicate. You're referring to video games specifically, which are simply a different medium, not concept.

The game design document is a unique tool to games, in film it's your script, in design it's your thumbnail sketches, in animation it's your key poses, in programming it's your design pattern. You OBVIOUSLY don't make a design document where it doesn't fit, but in games it's very important. By the way, I never mentioned any OFFICIAL GAME DESIGN DOCUMENT. As I said, there are many templates out there to pick from, but in general they tend to cover the key areas of a game.  It's like saying "screw those Hollywood suits, you don't need a script! Just go shoot the film!".

Even looking at designing a game such as soccer (football!!), you may ask yourself questions in a doc that lead to more questions leading to a cohesive design like : "What is the goal of the game?" "-To score more than the other team" , "Ok, how do you score" "-You get the ball in the net". From here you could ask yourself how big the goal is, and play test, and iterate, and decide that perhaps the goal is too small or too big, and adjust, then you want to figure out how many players are going to be on each team, and how those players interact, and how that interaction can be unique (i.e.Only allowed to use your feet and head), etc., etc. The elevator pitch can be, "A competitive ball game where players can only use their head and feet."

As a beginner one may not know what questions to ask to get to these helpful answers, and that's where using a design doc comes in.

I can agree with being a free thinker, etc, but it's silly to try and re-invent the wheel- especially as an amateur/beginner. If David Jaffe comes to me and says he thinks he has a better method- I'll take it, he's got the experience to make such a call. I know I sure as hell don't have the experience create a new system, and he probably doesn't either, considering he's here asking basic questions, so I'm not deferring to my own authority, I'm trusting the experience of those who have done it.

There also seems to be some sort of misunderstanding as to what the design doc IS. I'm sure some people are very technical about it, and go about it in the cartoony way you described, but most of the one's I've seen are very gameplay and creativity- driven.

To say that enjoying game-making and making a good game are mutually exclusive is disingenuous.
Comrade!
  • Avatar of Biggles
  • I know your secrets
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: May 5, 2005
  • Posts: 688
design doesn't have to involve an official document documenting the design. 'design documents' are one gamesdude favourite way of designing things. unless you just mean writing things down, in which case yes writing is a useful skill to practise, and it's one that i would expect most people to have acquired by the time they're making games. yes!! writing! write things down. i love writing. and yes i think that not every film has to have a script. reel back in shock if you like but there's more than one thing you can do with a camera. if you don't want to put your notes in the standard format then don't. if you don't want to make notes then don't and see what happens. something good could happen. maybe it already has.

also yes i already know all the basic theories of game design wizardry but thanks for reiterating them 3 times. p.s. design patterns are dumb because they're all based on java style thinking.

also i didn't say that making a good game and enjoying the process are mutually exclusive. i said that potentially aggressively documenting things can get in the way of you enjoying game development. i never made the implication that documentation has anything to do with the perceived quality of the end product, that was all you. i was saying that enjoyment of the process is for hobbyists first and foremost. if you like making games then i think you will find a way for your games to be good. getting bogged down with other peoples ideas (especially really malformed ones) is a waste of time that would be better spent practising your craft.

the reason i am picking a bone with you is basically that i think that things like 'design documents' and 'elevator pitches' make game design look a whole lot more thought out than it actually currently is. in the most part i think that the people who really have their ideas sorted aren't writing guides on game development techniques but are either doing theory analysing games or developing games themselves.

on the concept of how long games have been around / the history of games / distinction between video games and other games, i'll get back to you later because it's actually a topic i find interesting and i want to write a more proper response.
  • Group: Member
  • Joined: Jun 14, 2005
  • Posts: 27
These pissing contests get old for me really fast. The OP hasn't been on for a month anyway, I doubt he would benefit from any on going discussion anyway.
Comrade!
  • Avatar of Biggles
  • I know your secrets
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: May 5, 2005
  • Posts: 688
glad we're agreed. guess i'll save talking about games history for another time.
  • Avatar of EvilDemonCreature
  • i don't like change
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jul 5, 2002
  • Posts: 1453
glad we're agreed. guess i'll save talking about games history for another time.

Good call. It would feel wasted in a topic people would primarily go to in order to find out how they should go about making themselves an RPG in a stepwise, easy-to-follow fashion.

Maybe I'll make a topic about documenting and it's various relationships with game design throughout history, and we can get a more engaging discussion going on at that time instead.

And Spear, you were giving advice on software engineering. Even if you are giving it in some other context, even if you did not intend it to come off that way, I can still identify software engineering advice when I see it written down. Unlike yourself, I am a computer science student, so you'll have to take my word for the fact that I correctly identified that particular set of advice as software engineering advice. (I did exaggerate about feeling sad about it though. It's not really the sort of thing that can have any sort of emotional attachment to it at all.)
  • Avatar of hobo2
  • guns or swords?
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Group: Premium Member
  • Joined: Jan 18, 2004
  • Posts: 1018
Documentation is there as a reference and also acts as a place to gather your ideas to create cohesion. It is quite helpful, but not always necessary.