RM is not bad. A lot can be done with it. The point of the program was to make classic RPG's, which is what most people used it for. It was meant to be fun, although most people forget that games in RM are usually being made for the maker and not the GW audience. So the 12yr old kid who started using it for fun gets crapped on for making a shitty game that was only supposed to be for fun and suddenly the maker and the G&D community are bottom feeders?

Asocial bottom feeders? Not really. G&D is content specific. I don't come here for general discussion or to see peoples drawings. I come here because I enjoy amateur games. It's not asocial to visit the board that interests me or to not go on IRC because I don't have a lot of time for this stuff. (I'd rather be working on my game.) Perhaps some of these discussions were being rehashed because G&D attracted NEW members who hadn't seen those discussions before? Well, at least we shouldn't have to worry about that anymore.

Strive for actual innovation: Some people are making these games for fun and WANT to stick to the classic idea. They are not spending hours upon hours of their life for YOU to approve the game. It's for them. Meanwhile some people do come up with innovation, as much as the program can allow. In the past there were even contests that specifically aimed at going beyond the limits of the maker.

New concepts: I see these all the time. Again, this isn't really what the maker was designed for either but new concepts are constantly coming in even now when the site is dead.
Games without ripped content: Anyone that is TRULY striving for an original game and perhaps one to make others happy instead of themselves, or one to make money, won't be using RM. They will learn how to use a more sophisticated program and make all the graphics from scratch. I'm one of those people that works a full-time job and finds it difficult to spend the extra hours on original graphics that will eventually lead to the game never being complete because I simply won't have enough time. Not to mention not everyone is a pixel artist.


If you don't like the games then don't play them. If you don't like amateur games than stay out of G&D, because that's what it is. This isn't really a community of breath-taking games. Many of the users are young teens that have just discovered where to download RM2k3. Get over yourself and let these kids have some fun.

I don't really feel like spending time to make a full rebuttal to your post, but here's a quick response:

You claim that RM is not bad, then you say it can be used to make literally one thing with maybe a few customizations and a vast majority of stuff made with it is made entirely for the person making it and not at all with anybody else in mind. I don't know about you, but that doesn't even come close to clearing my bar for good.

On the subject of the RM community: If all you want to do with an internet forum is post a game you make entirely for yourself using ripped (illegal) resources and expect everybody else to love and adore unconditionally and actively avoid interaction with the other sections of the forum, you are definitionally an asocial bottom feeder. This is not even debatable.

Subject of innovation: Yes, I get that there are people that WANT to stick to the classic idea. The problem is that there were several instances where people would try to do something innovative and it would immediately get buried under all the other garbage, so eventually they just stopped trying. There's nothing wrong with embracing the classic idea, but you can't embrace it to the exclusion of nearly everything else. And, yeah, I remember the "exceed the limitations" contests. Those were great. Why didn't anybody go on to using game makers that don't HAVE those arbitrary limitations, though? Because every single time anybody did, it got buried. Your community was a self-destructive mess and nearly everybody that tried to change that got curbstomped by the circlejerk.

Subject of new concepts: If the maker isn't designed to accommodate for new concepts, it's a shitty maker. Plain and simple. New concepts are the lifeblood of game development, amateur or not. Hell, especially amateur game development.

Games without ripped content: I never said everybody should be pixel artists. I don't believe everybody should be pixel artists. Communities are formed by people with similar interests and differing talents. Leverage the pixel artists already in your community properly, foster an open community that helps include them and attracts more of them, and they WILL come, and they will create resources for you. Same with musicians, same with programmers, same with every single aspect of game development. If you make a community that's satisfied using ripped resources, only one very limited maker, and doesn't make an effort to recruit people who can change this, you aren't going to attract anybody but exactly the people who are already there, and you're never going to get the kind of people you should be looking for. Also: I would MUCH rather play somebody's shitty MS Paint RPG adventure that they made all of the resources for even if they aren't very good than a game built entirely on ripped resources. At least it shows they give enough of a shit about their game to try their hand at a new skill.

GW had it right when there were individual forums for Game Maker, RPG Maker, etc. The Game Maker forum and such got ditched before there seemed to be quite a bit of interest in it from GW, and before several GWers were making GM games. I guess that was bad timing, but yeah, I think that the GM games would have gotten the recognition that they would have received if they weren't forced by forum limitations to be stuck into the same forum with dozens and dozens of RPG Maker games.

It's cool today, though. There aren't really a lot of GW members making much of anything, so with such a low number of games being made here, it's definitely easier now for non-RPG Maker games to get attention here than it was in the past.

Yeah, I just made a weird post. The past had some good aspects, but so does the current GW. Actually, I don't think that the current GW has any problems other than the repeatedly delayed forum upgrade and broken user registration. If those two issues were sorted out, we'd be golden and good to go.

You claim that RM is not bad, then you say it can be used to make literally one thing with maybe a few customizations and a vast majority of stuff made with it is made entirely for the person making it and not at all with anybody else in mind. I don't know about you, but that doesn't even come close to clearing my bar for good.

I didn't say it can be used to make literally one thing with maybe a few customizations. It was designed for one thing and when people used it for that they got shafted. Seems silly to me. I used to maker to design a Zelda style game, a card game, an arcade-style shooter (although mouse control would have drastically improved that), a classic room-to-room murder adventure game (almost done), as well as a classic style RPG with a few handy innovations that the maker is easily equipped for (current project). It is capable of more but not everyone has the skills (main reason) to use it for more and again, some people want to stick to the classics. My current project I am making for me because I'm having a lot of fun making it. That doesn't mean I'm not challenging myself to be innovative and to make it very enjoyable for others. But if I put it out there and you hate it, I'm not going to be upset about it because at least I had fun doing it. If I was making a game for you and I put it out there after a year or two of working on it and you hated it, where do I go from there? What a waste of time if I didn't even have fun making it. So no, its not made entirely for the person making it but that is the first audience (regardless of the maker you use). If I was working for Bungie, EA, Bethesda or any other company my first priority would be making a game I like too, seeing as I'm a gamer.

On the subject of the RM community: If all you want to do with an internet forum is post a game you make entirely for yourself using ripped (illegal) resources and expect everybody else to love and adore unconditionally and actively avoid interaction with the other sections of the forum, you are definitionally an asocial bottom feeder. This is not even debatable.

There are plenty of free-to-use legal resources available out there. Some custom, some modified. It is true there are some illegal ones too and it seemed people usually went for these because they got shit on for using RTP graphics which come free with the program and are free to use. People didn't want to see RTP all the time and not everyone can do custom graphics, thus illegal graphics were used. If you think a new person to the forum could get custom graphics made for his new game he/she's starting then you are living in a dream world. Without proof of something substantial and/or previous (awesome) games it was impossible to recruit help. Fact. And people would get shit on again for asking and not providing proof they will finish the game and make it worth the time of said artists. Fair enough for an artist to not want to waste their time, but then don't expect every game to have unique graphics either. I'm not sure what you mean by, "and expect everybody else to love and adore unconditionally and actively avoid interaction with the other sections of the forum." I guess whatever you mean here makes us asocial bottom feeders. Saying, "This is not even debatable" does not make it so.

Subject of innovation: Yes, I get that there are people that WANT to stick to the classic idea. The problem is that there were several instances where people would try to do something innovative and it would immediately get buried under all the other garbage, so eventually they just stopped trying. There's nothing wrong with embracing the classic idea, but you can't embrace it to the exclusion of nearly everything else. And, yeah, I remember the "exceed the limitations" contests. Those were great. Why didn't anybody go on to using game makers that don't HAVE those arbitrary limitations, though? Because every single time anybody did, it got buried. Your community was a self-destructive mess and nearly everybody that tried to change that got curbstomped by the circlejerk.

Nobody stopped trying. Some people went to other forums (it happens), some people kept trying (myself included). When you say "garbage" is it because you don't like it? Well, you can't please 100% of the people 100% of the time. If you want really mature game devs than perhaps you should make people have to be 21+ to join the forum. Fact is this is (or was) mostly young kids just trying to have fun. I don't know if you have kids but if you do or ever do, I hope you don't tell them their stuff is garbage when they bring a finger painting home for you in kindergarten. Why can you not embrace the classic idea to the exclusion of nearly everything else? Sure you can invite other ideas in but when the majority is sticking to that idea then why alienate them? Obviously they are more active anyway. You say "your community." If you weren't active in it or didn't want part in it then why do you care? People doing what they love is not a self-destructive mess. The people in G&D were generally liking the way things were. The people outside of G&D seen the board as inadequate. That sounds like an issue for the other people not for G&D. Why not make an RM board and a separate board for other engines? Oh, they did. What happened? The other boards where not active enough. Shocking. So that's RM's fault.

Subject of new concepts: If the maker isn't designed to accommodate for new concepts, it's a shitty maker. Plain and simple. New concepts are the lifeblood of game development, amateur or not. Hell, especially amateur game development.

Its not that it isn't designed to accommodate for new concepts. Its just that it was designed for a classic RPG (which in itself can be quite broad). If it does what it was designed to do then it is NOT a shitty maker. In fact, that makes it a great maker. If it couldn't do what it was designed for it would be a shitty maker. It's like you want to pick up PS controller and play a Nintendo game. The PS controller wasn't made for it. Lets call a carrot peeler a blender and then say it makes a shitty carrot peeler because it doesn't blend. I agree the games should have original and unique ideas, but they can do that in the "limitations" of RM. Most people were working on their first game however, and the focus was on learning/playing around with it rather than making a game properly (which is more work than fun a lot of the time).

Games without ripped content: I never said everybody should be pixel artists. I don't believe everybody should be pixel artists. Communities are formed by people with similar interests and differing talents. Leverage the pixel artists already in your community properly, foster an open community that helps include them and attracts more of them, and they WILL come, and they will create resources for you. Same with musicians, same with programmers, same with every single aspect of game development. If you make a community that's satisfied using ripped resources, only one very limited maker, and doesn't make an effort to recruit people who can change this, you aren't going to attract anybody but exactly the people who are already there, and you're never going to get the kind of people you should be looking for. Also: I would MUCH rather play somebody's shitty MS Paint RPG adventure that they made all of the resources for even if they aren't very good than a game built entirely on ripped resources. At least it shows they give enough of a shit about their game to try their hand at a new skill.

I didn't say you said everybody should be pixel artists. That was just a minor comment to say not everyone can make their own graphics. "Leverage the pixel artists already in your community properly." I saw a lot of requests for help but unless you "proved" yourself by already releasing a game there was little hope to get any serious help. "If you make a community that's satisfied using ripped resources..." Nobody made a community like that. Perhaps the community came together like that because of similar interests. That does support your theory. So if they had similar interests and they were a community, then why bash them and tell them they're doing it wrong? "You aren't going to attract anybody but exactly the people who are already there." Again, similar interests. It seems to me that you just didn't like the people that where there. That sounds like a you problem. "You're never going to get the kind of people you should be looking for." There you go alienating the active community again. If you don't want those type of people why not just delete G&D and put a board up called "Every Maker But RM"? You might like a shitty MS Paint RPG as you call it, but other people like other things. There are games posted in G&D now that I think look like absolute stupid shit thrown together without a thought of innovation, creativity, or skill involved. It looks more like they just wanted something different (like yourself) but didn't think it through. I hate these games. However, some people here like them. Personally I'd take a classic RPG over those games any day. I feel like you and I are in a different time. I'm in 2010 where people realize they can have their own opinions, original thoughts, ideas, likes and dislikes. You seem to be in 1950 where everybody needs to think what they are told to think. Why is it so bad for you (and others in GW) to have to put up with some things you don't like?

Bald, I think the two priorities that should be handled immediately (IMO) are:

1. The main site. I suggest linking directly to the forum until, if in the future, there is a main site ready to go.
2. Site registration being fixed.

Outside of that I think is now in the communities hands for the most part.

Outside of that I think is now in the communities hands for the most part.

Yeah, this. Drule, GZ, and other guys who have attempted to have some kind of site for GW really are trying. I've seen lots of finger pointing from people over the last year or two who just blame the people in charge, or only the people in Game Design. Truth is, I think it's the entire community that's been at fault. I mean, we all probably could have done something to help out, even myself. Instead, we all just sort of sat on the sides and watched site admins work their asses off to make a coherent site while giving them two thumbs up and wishing them luck. A few people in the community helped out, which is great of them to do, but it has never been enough of us. Perhaps in 2002 or 2003 it was pretty cool since lots of people helped out back then, but for the past four or five years, we've been a lazy community.

In the future, if we ever have any kind of real site again, I think that more than 5% of the community should put effort into making GW a place that's actually worth visiting for more than just our forums.

GW just isn't a content producing community. it's shifted into a community that mostly just wants to talk, which is pretty normal.

a bit sad but true..

a bit sad but true..

i don't really think it's that sad.  who said people have to constantly produce content?  i've always loved GW because i just wanted to chat with the people here.  it's nice when they make games or songs or art too but mostly i just wanna chat

yea that's what i feel too but what i mean is that when i read that i felt that somehow all the efforts to revive gw or to make it into something were fruitless.
And if we have already reached the peak of gw as a 'talk' forum, then how should it grow, or will it just die as time pass by.

the one idea that was thrown around as a feasible plan to get GW back on it's feet was the idea of a meta site. that is, a site that draws content / information from other sites in a meaningful way. there's a lot of ways to do meta sites, but the big problem we ran into was that a good meta site required a lot of initial work and still required one or two dedicated people to run it well. i'm pretty sure this is part of the plan for the new GW, although this is going off really old information.

i think the problem people have with GW, and this is true of the current state of GW, is that someone walks in (in this case drule) and says they are working on GW but nothing gets done for ages. the same happened when ramirez and leafo were doing the site. you could say this is a legitimate complaint, but at the same time, understand that literally no one else is willing to do that job. drule is pretty much the only guy willing to do anything for GW in a big way. so while it might be kind of lame that nothing is getting done for a long time, he's the only one who gives a shit enough to attempt to do anything. basically, if he wasn't here, GW would be in the same situation except there would be no possibility of a new site.

since there's no new blood here, we got a bunch of veteran members who are too busy with life to do anything for the site. i know this happened to me, and it happened to a lot of other long time members here. you need new blood to keep a community strong and there's no one qualified or willing to carry the torch. GW needs new members in order to grow and that looks pretty unlikely.

Yeah at this point I think the only thing we regular members can do is just keep this place somewhat active. I'm still a believer in our gamemaking community, well what's left of it at least, and I've been on both sides of the fence so to speak when it comes to GW. I think that with UPRC reviving the chaingame and the recent activity of oldbies getting back into their RPG making/game making that's a good start. Hopefully things will slowly pick up.

Yes, it's been so many years since we've been 14, but instead of lamenting about the years gone by we can make use of our increased maturity now by releasing much better projects. Surely most of us have improved just by the fact that we've had some extra years of life experience under our belt.

In other news. I'll always be with GW, no matter what. At this point it should be fairly easy to have a new design, even a template or some shit. WordPress is a pretty awesome tool.

And yeah I want some of my files back.