get off the internet!
i'll meet u in the street
get off the internet!
destroy the right wing

that is true, but when it comes to people who seek to bring change through politics it goes way beyond the internet. just read noam chomsky's "a fat spoiled baby farts in his diaper and thinks he do good" for a real-world example

edit sorry I don't want to make fun of wholefoods in this post

it is in fact possible to maintain an interest in sustainable urbanism / sustainable development in general and pay attention to difficulties in wider politics. at the same time. just sayin.

I'm not saying you can't, though "interest in" implies the same sort of ineffectual armchair enthusiasm

might have said things I don't mean. ignore it all, I'll make a big post about this later

whole foods is a supermarket chain that sells premium food, mostly to gullible consumerists who believe they are better than the average "Starbucks and Giant" joe

I hate the condition of unions in the united states. I mean there are some cool ones like fabrication unions or the postal union (theres still a postal union right) but you've got a schism between corporations and companies that despise unions because they act as a form of beurocracy between employee and employer relationships often causing them more money and headache. And you got regular working class people who would rather work directly for an employer because they have some misconceptions about unions or hold the opinions that the unions are just another form of money sucking officials who'll use your hard earned labor to make a killing off of you.

I see both sides I guess. I used to be in a union and found out that the people that run the union and work in the headquarters building, a bunch of fucking people in suits. Like tons and tons of them with their nose up their asses were all being paid out of money I could be earning. For every dollar I got paid the union got paid, so if I made 4,000$ a month the union got the same from my labor plus initiation fees and dues. I didn't really like that at all because I felt most of those people were getting paid to sit on their asses while I couldn't even get a job at my union hall because there was no work. Those people were supposed to be lobbying and making calls to give us work and there wasn't any, so I left the union.

But I understand the necessity of workers rights and I get that employers usually if not always do not have your interests at heart. They'll do what the law requires of them and whats necessary to bring in employees in that way but anything a step further they could give less than a shit about.

For instance right now I'm dealing with a company that hasn't given me a single fucking raise in the past two and a half years. I'm told by people I speak to about it that I work hard and I learn fast and my money is on some guys desk but they put a hold on raises so I can't get one right now and I have to wait. Its been over two fucking years, its not even really about the money but the principle. I want to go to school to further my education, I can't go to school to be an officer until I get enough seatime so I have to wait they tell me. So I go find another course I can use to operate the ships thruster systems without needing a license right now, they tell me to wait still.

I'm tired of waiting and not getting anywhere at this place so I'm gonna find another job when I get home. I'm gonna try to send myself to school but if I don't have what I need I'll sail as an AB again till I get it. Its just shit like that where I wish I had someone to represent me and I miss the union. But at the same time the union I was with was so huge and spread out that it was hard to get shit done just the same, also alot of politics. Fucking politics everywhere, if you don't know or are related to some high up asshole its so hard to work yourself up to something.

whole foods is a supermarket chain that sells premium food, mostly to gullible consumerists who believe they are better than the average "Starbucks and Giant" joe

I buy 90% of my groceries from Whole Foods but not for this reason.

it is a new joke Hah Hah funny video from Me

http://youtu.be/ULodlULgOxQ

why did I find this gem I didn't even know there was a Japanese version of Spiderman.

http://marvel.com/videos/watch/580/japanese_spider-man_episode_07

http://www.chavtowns.co.uk/
I think the people who run this website are far more disgusting than the people they complain about.

it's not about not dealing with capital, it's just not full of muddy politics. economy is one of the pillars of sustainability and is generally how sustainable stuff is sold to the bigwigs, and the popularity of going green helps too. so yeah, the power-hungry moneygrubbers are still involved, but only on the periphery. I'll go into more detail with this later, but the project I'm working on now is very closely tied to the community where it's going into effect and the people who live and work there

IDK, I'm not optimistic about private green development, there's a lot to criticize on both the ecological and economic ends of it. Almost everything is bent into submission to profit/expansion and I'm not convinced that any solution is possible outside of things like "fantasy revolution" cuz ethical consumption ain't the way out(this includes ethical consumption of productive labor). You will not keep cars out of cities as long as the motor/petroleum industries exist, expensive new condos will continue to spring up and gentrify neighborhoods, for every quarter-mile of permeable surface walkways or green rooftop you've got hundreds of miles of extra freeway lanes and acres of "mcmansion" subdevelopments. etc...
I can draw a lot of parallels and it's actually very closely tied with some of the projects I was involved with in environmental science(mostly around wastewater/runoff issues) locally and it's dismal, especially when you can't eat certain species of fish that've been dietary staples of humans living in the area since people marched on over here and the dead orcas washing up on shore need to be disposed of in hazardous waste dumps. It all points to the necessity of a massive restructuring that needs to happen sooner rather than later. I know of maybe a few dozen little carved out niches where the people involved feel great about Doing A Good Thing, and it's certainly neat. You can't really knock it, but when you've got factory farms and industrial parks 40-50 miles away in the same watershed blowing pesticides and inorganic nitrogen and phosphorus into wrecked topsoil that rolls right into the rivers, or dumping out a cocktail of persistant organic pollutants into the water, the localized good those little remediation projects do is dwarfed by The Real Problem. Capital always stands in the way and the ever-present compulsion to realize surplus value will always short-circuit any good intentions.

what makes you think that? or are you just trying to offend me

The way you characterized working class americans and their capability to affect social change. That's the reason I'm pursuing the conversation, my entire point is that it's silly to say things like "the political climate is never gonna be conducive for something like this in america, so the best you can do is carve out a niche on your own" and that perspective is just as ineffectual as the Prof. CourdoroyJacket trying to envelop a lenin bust with his foreskin during office hours.

no, I trust you do. I didn't really mean that. I just disdain when people talk philosophy and theory as some kind of fun puzzle to solve/masturbate over/fantasize about without actually doing anything that will make any sort of difference

It's a start. Where do you think the foundations of urbanism, as a discipline, came from? What is the purpose of academia if not to explore/solve conceptual problems? You're right that it's not enough, but theory informs practice as much as practice informs theory.

PS: Dietcoke, I assume by 'Labour' you mean union dealings or issues? I understand that unions are quite the topic of contention in the US. Here the attitude is pretty much either "I am in a union, hooray for unions" or "My profession doesn't have a union, how dare they fight for more rights when I am unable to!" Or did you mean other labour type dealings/community work?

I don't have any formal ties with established unions nor do I have anything to do with contracts, but there are other things that I do in that mix that involves getting people out and applying pressure on public and private institutions. I don't want to get too specific about these things publicly because a some of it is pretty visible and personally identifiable stuff.

IDK, I'm not optimistic about private green development, there's a lot to criticize on both the ecological and economic ends of it. Almost everything is bent into submission to profit/expansion and I'm not convinced that any solution is possible outside of things like "fantasy revolution" cuz ethical consumption ain't the way out. You will not keep cars out of cities as long as the motor/petroleum industries exist, expensive new condos will continue to spring up and gentrify neighborhoods, for every quarter-mile of permeable surface walkways or green rooftop you've got hundreds of miles of extra freeway lanes and acres of "mcmansion" subdevelopments. etc...
I can draw a lot of parallels and it's actually very closely tied with some of the projects I was involved with in environmental science(mostly around wastewater/runoff issues) locally and it's dismal, especially when you can't eat certain species of fish that've been dietary staples of humans living in the area since people marched on over here and the dead orcas washing up on shore need to be disposed of in hazardous waste dumps. It all points to the necessity of a massive restructuring that needs to happen sooner rather than later. I know of maybe a few dozen little carved out niches where the people involved feel great about Doing A Good Thing, and it's certainly neat. You can't really knock it, but when you've got factory farms and industrial parks 40-50 miles away in the same watershed blowing pesticides and inorganic nitrogen and phosphorus into wrecked topsoil that rolls right into the rivers, or dumping out a cocktail of persistant organic pollutants into the water, the localized good those little remediation projects do is dwarfed by The Real Problem. Capital always stands in the way and the ever-present compulsion to realize surplus value will always short-circuit any good intentions.

given this paragraph I'm not sure you know what exactly eg the auto industry has done to fuck over america and how that can be reversed. and idk where all this skepticism comes from but again I'll go into more detail when I make the topic and maybe we can have a less one-sided discussion about this then. I'll keep what you've written in mind tho.

The way you characterized working class americans and their capability to affect social change. That's the reason I'm pursuing the conversation, my entire point is that it's silly to say things like "the political climate is never gonna be conducive for something like this in america, so the best you can do is carve out a niche on your own" and that perspective is just as ineffectual as the Prof. CourdoroyJacket trying to envelop a lenin bust with his foreskin during office hours.

wow forgive me for being skeptical of politics and hoping to build something with my own hands. I'm totally supportive of any of the goals we've discussed being implemented in any way possible, but again, forgive me for pursuing my own thing in the meantime

It's a start. Where do you think the foundations of urbanism, as a discipline, came from? What is the purpose of academia if not to explore/solve conceptual problems? You're right that it's not enough, but theory informs practice as much as practice informs theory.

well, the difference is that sustainable urbanism solution-oriented, as in it has an actual practical application that is part of the thought process in genesis. this in contrast to some dumb philosopher reasoning whether man is all good or all evil. there is theory, but it's grounded, and relies less on personal observations and inferences that are "logically proven", as was the case with the few terrible philosophical works I've read

given this paragraph I'm not sure you know what exactly eg the auto industry has done to fuck over america and how that can be reversed. and idk where all this skepticism comes from but again I'll go into more detail when I make the topic and maybe we can have a less one-sided discussion about this then. I'll keep what you've written in mind tho.

Try me. What gives you that impression? I'll admit I do not have all the answers to the specifics/logistics of how to reverse the effects the automotive or petroleum industries have had on the US(no one person does), I can discuss particularities relating to the history of american working class movements, the environment and certain infrastructure.

wow forgive me for being skeptical of politics and hoping to build something with my own hands. I'm totally supportive of any of the goals we've discussed being implemented in any way possible, but again, forgive me for pursuing my own thing in the meantime

I wasn't hounding you for pursuing your own thing, read the previous paragraph, I probably think it's neat. But I don't like the middle-class arrogance. That shit is more nauseating to me than some of the more backwards sentiments of the working poor you seem to think are incapable of affecting social change. Guess what: it's in the struggles of the working class where potential for radical social change lies, not the pet projects of self-important professionals.

well, the difference is that sustainable urbanism solution-oriented, as in it has an actual practical application that is part of the thought process in genesis. this in contrast to some dumb philosopher reasoning whether man is all good or all evil. there is theory, but it's grounded, and relies less on personal observations and inferences that are "logically proven", as was the case with the few terrible philosophical works I've read

Much of this solution-oriented stuff accepts the premise of capitalism as a given, thus ruling out even the consideration of radical change. If your assessment of the problem is such that it requires radical change to solve, this pragmatic approach is inadequate. This is where we run into the limits of liberalism: a repackaged "there is no alternative".
What specific philosophers are you talking about? You've made mention of socialists/communist theory earlier in the thread(happens to be an area I'm well read in and quite partisan) and none of that really concerns ethics, morals, or "the nature of man", so what is it that you are referring to?

Much of this solution-oriented stuff accepts the premise of capitalism as a given

I'm pretty sure it started out as a communist thing, like le corbusier "everyone is the same" urbanism blah blah blah

I mean the whole idea of urbanism is like communism because it's impossible, no one wants to actually pay for it unless you're talking about a decent country like dada's

Try me. What gives you that impression? I'll admit I do not have all the answers to the specifics/logistics of how to reverse the effects the automotive or petroleum industries have had on the US(no one person does), I can discuss particularities relating to the history of american working class movements, the environment and certain infrastructure.

stop it. I said no.

Guess what: it's in the struggles of the working class where potential for radical social change lies, not the pet projects of self-important professionals.

an army of noble savages fighting under the banner of the Learned Man
idk what you want me to say? sitting there thinking about that is not gonna make their lives any better right now. my pessimism lies in the COLLEGE BOYS who sit around masturbating to lovely phrases, not in the caricatured tools of your revolution fantasy

Much of this solution-oriented stuff accepts the premise of capitalism as a given, thus ruling out even the consideration of radical change. If your assessment of the problem is such that it requires radical change to solve, this pragmatic approach is inadequate. This is where we run into the limits of liberalism: a repackaged "there is no alternative".

so what, you want to let everything get as shitty as possible under the current system in hopes that things will get bad enough people will rebel? anything positive stands in the way of revolution? capitalism is a given because that's the situation we have to work with, but this stuff would be equally important in a non-capitalist society. capitalism is barely even a constraint. really, if there is any urban interface that would function well in a society without capitalism, it's part of sustainable urbanism. like the fracture-critical garbage we've got going on now would hold up at all without capitalism!
 

What specific philosophers are you talking about? You've made mention of socialists/communist theory earlier in the thread(happens to be an area I'm well read in and quite partisan) and none of that really concerns ethics, morals, or "the nature of man", so what is it that you are referring to?

no, in that quote I was thinking of ayn rand and nietzsche and whoever else thought they had REASONED the ultimate solution for humankind and ended up with something incredibly awful. some philosophy nerd will have something to say about the significance of nietzsche, stop reading these posts they're not for you