Topic: Has barack obama changed anything yet? (Read 6204 times)

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Dude.

Okay first of all I moderate this forum. Second of all if you, at any point, want to talk about Obama's record, feel free to do so. This discussion we're having is not mutually exclusive with the point of this topic.
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Forums are basically a series of conversations.  Conversations don't always stay on the exact same topic.  Derailing is when you come in with something entirely irrelevant, but when the conversation shifts naturally to a new topic there's no reason to whine about it.
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fuck obama who cares everyone pretty much quit giving a shit years ago
 
what has obama done "jack shit" rename this topic to libya because its way more interesting than a neutral black neutral american fucking blank space fill in some stupid bill which pisses both sides off because he gotta concede to everything fucking pussy that isn't worth talking about and there isn't really anything to say about him at all because he doesn't do anything but give long drawn out speeches infront of bullet proof panes of glass
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Then i apolagise for pointing out what i belived to be thread de-railment and accept that this is simply an evolution of the topic, from barack obama to what a fuck up he was in wars to a talking about foreign policy and one war specificly, that being libiya; and i'm well aware that you moderate the forum, but that jack hammer comment wasn't aimed at you specificly, perhaps i should have writtten it so it didn't so feel specificly at you.

Any way, i dislike how the newpapers are basicly putting the spin on it that were (U.S., UK,etc) heroes, when were not, were just barging in to a conflict that we really don't have any right to be in, frankly i'm not suprised, freaking propaganda, whats worse are the sheep that will eat it up.

Do you think that were going to try and install some kind of puppet goverment once I'ts been "liberated"?
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I think the point I've seen so far that made the most sense is the one that said if a madman were after me, I'd want someone to save me.

Think about it. If your family and friends were being murdered and YOU were next, would it matter if someone from your own country saved you? Would you be all "Hey! You are not my kind! You should have let you die!" Of course not!

People get so involved in politics that they forget what morals are. Imaginary lines that we call 'borders' don't divide us. We are all human beings. We all need protection. And if we can help each other stay alive then we should do EVERYTHING possible to make that happen. How any of you can look down on people who risk their own lives to save others is so strange to me.
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I think the point I've seen so far that made the most sense is the one that said if a madman were after me, I'd want someone to save me.

Think about it. If your family and friends were being murdered and YOU were next, would it matter if someone from your own country saved you? Would you be all "Hey! You are not my kind! You should have let you die!" Of course not!

People get so involved in politics that they forget what morals are. Imaginary lines that we call 'borders' don't divide us. We are all human beings. We all need protection. And if we can help each other stay alive then we should do EVERYTHING possible to make that happen. How any of you can look down on people who risk their own lives to save others is so strange to me.

Think about it. Would it matter if your family dealt with it internally, or if someone else rescued them from you?
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I think the point I've seen so far that made the most sense is the one that said if a madman were after me, I'd want someone to save me.

Think about it. If your family and friends were being murdered and YOU were next, would it matter if someone from your own country saved you? Would you be all "Hey! You are not my kind! You should have let you die!" Of course not!

People get so involved in politics that they forget what morals are. Imaginary lines that we call 'borders' don't divide us. We are all human beings. We all need protection. And if we can help each other stay alive then we should do EVERYTHING possible to make that happen. How any of you can look down on people who risk their own lives to save others is so strange to me.
True but you have to look at all of the effects like we could be there to  "save their people" but we'll probably end up killing a lot of civilians as we've done in Iraq/Afghanistan/Every war pretty much and also the amount of money involved.  The US is in debt and could be spending this money on better things.  We get oil from Libya I'm pretty sure we're there now because
A. our allies are there and we want to help them so in the future if we need help they'll help us and
B. So we can help the people and they'll be on good terms with us so we can continue getting their oil.
Plenty of other countries have horrible dictator leaders/human rights issues but we don't go and attack them.

"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." -Sen. Obama, 12/20/2007
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True but you have to look at all of the effects like we could be there to  "save their people" but we'll probably end up killing a lot of civilians as we've done in Iraq/Afghanistan/Every war pretty much and also the amount of money involved.  The US is in debt and could be spending this money on better things.  We get oil from Libya I'm pretty sure we're there now because
A. our allies are there and we want to help them so in the future if we need help they'll help us and
B. So we can help the people and they'll be on good terms with us so we can continue getting their oil.
Plenty of other countries have horrible dictator leaders/human rights issues but we don't go and attack them.

"The President does not have power under the Constitution to unilaterally authorize a military attack in a situation that does not involve stopping an actual or imminent threat to the nation." -Sen. Obama, 12/20/2007

True but the other different circumstance that where in play. like the fact that they where part of the UN and we asked for him to stop this and he still continued. Anyways now a days even the worst dictator doesn't go as far to level a whole fucking city just because some rebels are hiding in it that's just a bit too mad.
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the thing is that, they don't really care about the people. It's all thrown at you like this is the amazing western heroes comming in to save the innocents from oppression. And you have to think, Really?
Belarus is a dictatorship in europe, where people have a habbit of disappearing if they oppose Lukashenko.
Zimbabwe is... Zimbabwe, surely i dont need to explain.
What about those violent unrest in Thailand last year, where was the brave heroes?
Man, thank god the US is supporting the palastinians, because the US does what it does best, and helps the innocents against the aggressors... Oh wait, most of Israel's weapons come from the UK and US... NEVER MIND!
man, we really helped out by stepping in when the iranian protestors where getting beat.
Praise the brave western countries who have helped out stopping ivory coast's violence.
Thank god North Korea is a shining democracy thanks to american support.
etc etc etc

Western intervention is definately the key to solving the world. HAIL AMERICA!
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there was a much simpler answer, one which would have made gaddafi likely to not kill as many of his people. Our governments could have not sold him weapons.
A few weeks ago, our peaceloving prime minister, david thatcher, was on a merry trip round the middle east selling weapons to umm... dictators.

Aren't western democracies so loving?
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Plus it's also hypocritical because we are allies with governments who are horrible like Saudi Arabia...
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the thing is that, they don't really care about the people. It's all thrown at you like this is the amazing western heroes comming in to save the innocents from oppression. And you have to think, Really?
Belarus is a dictatorship in europe, where people have a habbit of disappearing if they oppose Lukashenko.
Zimbabwe is... Zimbabwe, surely i dont need to explain.
What about those violent unrest in Thailand last year, where was the brave heroes?
Man, thank god the US is supporting the palastinians, because the US does what it does best, and helps the innocents against the aggressors... Oh wait, most of Israel's weapons come from the UK and US... NEVER MIND!
man, we really helped out by stepping in when the iranian protestors where getting beat.
Praise the brave western countries who have helped out stopping ivory coast's violence.
Thank god North Korea is a shining democracy thanks to american support.
etc etc etc

Western intervention is definately the key to solving the world. HAIL AMERICA!

Yeah, it's pretty incredible that people actually take this "humanitarian intervention" and "promoting democracy" shit at face value anymore.

"Huh, western powers are mobilizing military strikes in support of regime change in another oil rich country... well the TV tells me that this dictator is CRAZY and we need support these attacks because they might prevent a possible GENOCIDE and bring DEMOCRACY."

We have the collective memory of a fucking goldfish.
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But you have to acknowledge that the average liberal, who probably opposes Afghanistan, Iraq and Pakistan and whatever other recent examples you can think of, but supports the uprisings in the Middle East and is horrified by the accounts of civilians getting decimated by Gaddafi's professional army would be conflicted in this situation. The waters are muddied by the fact that a bloody uprising is currently taking place, especially to those who don't really pay that much attention to foreign affairs to begin with. What a lot of people are saying right now is: "I don't support military interventionism in general, but these strikes will probably make it possible for the revolution to succeed, so I support this instance of interventionism." That's pretty much the same line as originally used for Iraq, and this so-called no-fly zone is really tantamount to an invasion, but I wouldn't really attribute this line of thought to malice so much as to ignorance. It's hard to be properly informed when you don't know a shred of how military imperialism works, and most people don't (and I really don't know too much about it either).

Much of what made the PR runup to the Iraq war successful was that the left spent far too much time pandering to liberals and less time attempting to establish a militant pole of opposition that called into question the legitimacy of capitalism/imperialism. I don't have patience for liberals echoing imperialist propaganda and will shout them down when they support shit like this because I'm not some kind of fucking hippie who values everyone's opinion and thinks all perspectives need to be heard out: it needs to be shut down.
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the thing is that, they don't really care about the people. It's all thrown at you like this is the amazing western heroes comming in to save the innocents from oppression. And you have to think, Really?
Belarus is a dictatorship in europe, where people have a habbit of disappearing if they oppose Lukashenko.
Zimbabwe is... Zimbabwe, surely i dont need to explain.
What about those violent unrest in Thailand last year, where was the brave heroes?
Man, thank god the US is supporting the palastinians, because the US does what it does best, and helps the innocents against the aggressors... Oh wait, most of Israel's weapons come from the UK and US... NEVER MIND!
man, we really helped out by stepping in when the iranian protestors where getting beat.
Praise the brave western countries who have helped out stopping ivory coast's violence.
Thank god North Korea is a shining democracy thanks to american support.
etc etc etc

Western intervention is definately the key to solving the world. HAIL AMERICA!

Thank you for summing it up perfectly.

Western military interventionism is arbitrary. It has nothing to do with helping oppressed civilians. I like your example of Ivory Coast, where a bloody conflict has been going on since the elections in 2009. Another good example is Western Sahara, where the recent round of protests actually originated from in November last year. I'm willing to bet most people don't even know that Western Sahara is a country. It's been under a brutal Moroccan occupation for ages. There's a massive humanitarian crisis going on there, so bad that a huge number of civilians decided to stage a mass exodus. In response, Moroccan forces came in and completely ravaged the tent cities, killing and wounding many. Western Sahara has also long been a source of human slave trafficking on a massive scale.

I'm pretty sure those that potentially have the ability to do something about this, indirectly or otherwise, know about this. They just don't care enough.

We have the collective memory of a fucking goldfish.

edit

Much of what made the PR runup to the Iraq war successful was that the left spent far too much time pandering to liberals and less time attempting to establish a militant pole of opposition that called into question the legitimacy of capitalism/imperialism.
I think you can put this into a broader perspective of the left, or at least the professional/popular left (politicians, pundits, popular figures), having been slowly but steadily moving to the right for quite some time now.

I don't have patience for liberals echoing imperialist propaganda and will shout them down when they support shit like this because I'm not some kind of fucking hippie who values everyone's opinion and thinks all perspectives need to be heard out: it needs to be shut down.
Well, I'm not really talking about "hearing people out" so much as recognizing that a lot of people don't understand how this stuff works and working from there. At least, that's the impression I'm getting. But I guess you're right, I am kind of a hippie like that. You're more serious about this than I am. I'm not an activist, I'm a talker.
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today in class these guys were talking about quitting college and joining the army so they could "fuck up" gaddafi while playing eminem on their dell laptops
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today in class these guys were talking about quitting college and joining the army so they could "fuck up" gaddafi while playing eminem on their dell laptops

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what I meant to say is they were talking about it while playing eminem on their dells AND they wanted to beat up gaddafi while playing eminem on their dells.
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livin the dream right here

Lets play a scenario you are gaddafi and I am the army man that quit college to fuck you up but I refuses to set foot on Libya so I send missile which will be represented with cretin body part (AKA my penis)... how do you feel about that?
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