Topic: Happy New Salt + What's on your mind 2012: CHILL YOUR HEAD (Read 116275 times)

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There is really no good reason to call anyone these things, with the exception being a black person using nigger/nigga.  It's a reclaimed word, which is kind of a tricky thing to discuss.
it's been used by black americans for a long time, though, even back when it was a more common racial slur, so I'm not sure nigger qualifies as a reappropriation. not on the same level as queer, anyway. nigga might.

guido would probably be a better example of a reappropriated slur
do you guys think that maybe the REASON that people still use the term faggot is as primarily a way to demean straight men as 'unmanly'? Espeically since just calling them unmanly is perhaps not as 'sharp' of a word? And its become culturally stuck in men's minds that if they aren't manly that they basically suck as a person, which makes fag such an effective insult?
yep, same with pussy/little bitch/sand in your vagina etc when directed at a man
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DDay, seriously let it go. I know that it's ingrained in your vocabulary and you don't mean any harm from it and I don't think anyone here thinks that you do, but no one is going to approve of you using it and this thread really isn't a fight worth winning.
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made a new single

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DDay, seriously let it go. I know that it's ingrained in your vocabulary and you don't mean any harm from it and I don't think anyone here thinks that you do, but no one is going to approve of you using it and this thread really isn't a fight worth winning.

I did let it go but you seem to just be going on. I staked my claim and that's all I will do.
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There is really no good reason to call anyone these things, with the exception being a black person using nigger/nigga.  It's a reclaimed word, which is kind of a tricky thing to discuss.  Some white people think that because it has been reclaimed that they should be able to use it.  The thing with this is that originally the word was a way for white people to exert their power over black people.  By reclaiming it for themselves, black people have taken that power back.  White people trying to use it with this reasoning are just exerting their original power, which is doing the exact opposite.  This comes up a lot when people try to argue about why it's okay for black people to say it but not white people.
But white people today (the non-racist ones) have about the same amount of ties to their ancestors use of this word as black people have with their ancestors being authentically treated as sub-human. Like, I know its an overly strong phrase for this issue, but "don't punish the child for the father's actions". To associate them with with the racism of their ancestor's doesn't seem fair. It IS a relatively small and unimportant loss (not being permitted to say a word tied with hatred), but its still 'technically' unfair. Which I think is what is so annoying. Something tells me most (or at least a large number) of the white people who say they think they should be allowed to say nigger/nigga aren't saying so because they honestly want to (its hard to imagine why they'd actually care), but because of some sort of principal and hating the idea that they are tied to a horrible racist practice through no fault of their own.

There is no debate, this is exactly why.  This is why you can't divorce the word faggot from its meaning and turn it into a general insult.  The REASON it's an insult is tied into its homophobic roots.  By calling someone (typically a man) gay or a faggot, you're telling them that they are lesser.  So, not only are you implying that gay people are subhuman, but you are ALSO reinforcing the homophobia of those hearing this insult.  The person being insulted is going to continue associating being called gay (and homosexuality in general) with being humiliated, everyone else is going to be reminded of the same thing with the potential threat that they'll be the next one called this.  The word bitch is used in the same way (making someone your bitch, someone acting like a little bitch, etc.), by implying that a man is something associated with women, you're implying he's subhuman while also reinforcing the idea that women are subhuman and you don't want to be like them.  That's why people arguing that these jokes are fine within your circle of friends that you know aren't offended by things isn't a good argument.  You're still reinforcing these ideas among people that you're supposed to LIKE and they're going to perpetuate it.  If you and a friend get comfortable calling each other fags, you're endlessly supporting hate speech between each other and you're likely to start using it elsewhere.  It's best and easiest that you just don't support hate speech at all.
What about people who only call straight men fags, yet never call gay men fags? If they are relating the man as a sub-human because of their unmanly ways, why do so many of them never do the same for the very model they are apparently basing their insult on? This is a pretty common practice. To me it almost seems likely that there are those that just think being a straight man that acts like a woman/gay man is bad. but a gay man acting like a woman/gay man is never called out because of the unsaid understanding that, "hey, he's actually gay, that's why he's like that." And why, when a woman is called a bitch, the definition completely changes from being weak/whiny (in case of men being called this) to be mean/aggravating (women being called this)?

These are just curiosities. I wonder what vel and dada have to say the most in these cases.
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But white people today (the non-racist ones) have about the same amount of ties to their ancestors use of this word as black people have with their ancestors being authentically treated as sub-human. Like, I know its an overly strong phrase for this issue, but "don't punish the child for the father's actions". To associate them with with the racism of their ancestor's doesn't seem fair. It IS a relatively small and unimportant loss (not being permitted to say a word tied with hatred), but its still 'technically' unfair. Which I think is what is so annoying. Something tells me most (or at least a large number) of the white people who say they think they should be allowed to say nigger/nigga aren't saying so because they honestly want to (its hard to imagine why they'd actually care), but because of some sort of principal and hating the idea that they are tied to a horrible racist practice through no fault of their own.

Except the racism isn't over?  Even if you, personally, You As A White Man do not see yourself as racist, that doesn't mean you deserve to call people niggers.  Until RACISM IS OVER then that word will have power when spoken from someone who isn't black.  Just let them have it, there is no reason to argue this out of principle.

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What about people who only call straight men fags, yet never call gay men fags? If they are relating the man as a sub-human because of their unmanly ways, why do so many of them never do the same for the very model they are apparently basing their insult on? This is a pretty common practice. To me it almost seems likely that there are those that just think being a straight man that acts like a woman/gay man is bad. but a gay man acting like a woman/gay man is never called out because of the unsaid understanding that, "hey, he's actually gay, that's why he's like that." And why, when a woman is called a bitch, the definition completely changes from being weak/whiny (in case of men being called this) to be mean/aggravating (women being called this)?

Because it's "socially acceptable" to call straight people fags whereas it isn't for gay people (though depending on where you live some places are JUST FINE WITH THAT TOO).  The thing is, it still perpetuates the same stereotypes and it still has the same effect on gay people.  They're less likely to get called out on it.  How many times have you seen people toss around the words fag and bitch without a huge discussion like we've just had?  Marginalized people are hesitant (and with good reason) to speak up about this and few people want to speak up on their behalf.  However, when you take it too far and start calling a gay person a faggot, people take it more seriously.  They're only interested in the most obviously hateful uses of the word without being concerned about the smaller but just as problematic every day uses.  Everyone knows not to angrily shout nigger at a black person, but casual racism is around us every single day.  The same goes for casual sexism, although a lot of people won't see a problem with you calling a woman a bitch.  If you call a woman a cunt you're MORE likely to get called out on it, although it still seems like that's not always true.  But, you're not nearly as likely to get called out for telling a woman to "go make me a sammich get back in the kitchen xD LOL".  They both do the same thing, but only the most extreme instances get called out on by "polite society" because people are reluctant to challenge things like this.

As for the differences in the way bitch is used, I think it comes down to the way women are perceived.  Women's anger isn't really taken seriously (Woah, what a bitch, huh?  Must be that time of the month.  Wow, you're getting kinda hysterical, huh?  Women are so emotional!), so even if bitch means a woman who is angry or really just says ANYTHING in most cases, she's still incredibly weak by a MAN'S standards, so the whiniest biggest loser of a man is similar to the most aggressive woman in the eyes of a misogynist.

Women not being taken seriously is a huge issue in feminism, and words like bitch or jokes about a woman's place just make it harder to do anything about it.  Women are hormonal whereas men are SPIRITED.  Women are pushy whereas men are strong leaders.  Women are totally ruled by emotion whereas men are logical (unless a woman wears a low cut shirt, in which case it's okay to rape her because HEY I'M A MAN I'VE GOT A STRONG SEX DRIVE DID SHE REALLY EXPECT ME TO CONTROL MYSELF?  WE'RE JUST ANIMALS AFTER ALL...).  Heck, a lot of doctors won't take women's health concerns seriously and will just tell them they're too stressed when they have serious medical conditions.  You'd be surprised at how often this happens.

That deviated away from what you were saying a little but I think it all ties back in to this whole discussion and to why bitch is particularly dangerous.  It feels a lot less powerful than a word like faggot or nigger, but that's kind of THE PROBLEM.  It's a word used to demean women on a daily basis and it has become so common and pervasive that it's incredibly hard to fight against.  After all, if you're a woman you call someone out for using the word bitch, they're just going to call you a bitch.
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I'm about to reread through this and I get vell and dada's point of view but you're forgetting the harshness of the real world.

You have to put that into perspective if you want a realistic opinion on this shit. Trying to convert or change or enlighten someone who doesn't necessarily need the enlightening because its on such an unimportant scale is not only wasting your time but belittling your belief systems to outsiders. Everytime you harp on this shit everytime you go one some self-rightious notion that others should take into heart your hurt feelings or anothers hurt feelings your forgetting that isn't how most people think. Most people don't give a shit about how their language effects the mindsets of others which is a terrible thing yes but its also very important.

This is the key factor in developing a "thick skin" which isn't just not letting words hurt you but developing a mindset and an ability to not let that kind of ignorance or careless disreguard for how you personally interperet what is around you belittle or prevent you from being who you are. Its important to try to change the shit you can and make known how you feel without being too preachy or overbearing because then its just words and words and the people you want to help that you might actually be able to help will not be willing to listen to you at all.

This goes back to inri and dday. No dday I don't think you're stupid, if you're here engaging in conversation you aren't stupid. But I think you kind of block out alot of shit by not thinking and haven't absorbed some stuff from this place that you should have already. Which is the problem with alot of people.
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I've said this before but it's easy to say it's "just words" when you're not the one they're targeted to.  We went over the "toughen up/get a thicker skin" thing with Afura in the last big argument on the threads so I'm not going to go over that again, look it up if you have to.  I'm going to bed.
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Oh god I am so sick of that your not this _____ or this _____ or that _____ horse shit.

by saying that you are automatically devaluing the opinions of others and belittling what they have to say. Most progressive thinking people now a days do not identify themselves by their race, gender, or sexual preferance. Even those of a minority race, gender, or sexual preference. And by harping on that you're trying to say that what you think is more important than what a straight white male thinks because you have a different sexual organ. Which is bullshit.

The best way I can explain this is once we were in indonesia and an indonesian guy asked my boss if his parents were from africa or something like that because he was black. My boss told him that "I don't fucking know, I'm an american".

That is the most innocent, simple, and perfect way to explain what I'm trying to convey here.

This superiority and self-rightiousness is doing nothing but working backwards for you.
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Think of it this way. It's very nearly impossible to tell, by sight, if someone's gay. A lot of people are loath to identify themselves as gay/queer for lots of reasons, but among them is all the times they hear someone just casually toss out "that's gay!" or "what a bunch of fags" in conversation. Using those words like that reinforces their negative meaning, and if someone can avoid being perceived negatively by not saying a few words, they'll stay quiet. You don't know if the people you're talking to are gay. If they're not, you might be making them uncomfortable because it's an issue they care about. If they are, you're probably making them feel like shit. (After a while, it wears you down.) And if they're malleable kids or adults, you're influencing them to act the same way you are, and they don't know all your rationalizations.

This is a podcast where a comedian from Philly who's pretty genial talks about why he waited ~40 years to really come out. It is a good listen.
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I've said this before but it's easy to say it's "just words" when you're not the one they're targeted to.  We went over the "toughen up/get a thicker skin" thing with Afura in the last big argument on the threads so I'm not going to go over that again, look it up if you have to.  I'm going to bed.

I'm not saying its "just words" I'm not saying its not hurtful to you. I'm saying as an intelligent and strong person you should be smart enough to realize that you cannot control the world around you. You cannot change how people think or talk. And by letting it get to you and by focusing on obscure shit to the bigger picture of things you're only causing yourself more stress.
 
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Think of it this way. It's very nearly impossible to tell, by sight, if someone's gay. A lot of people are loath to identify themselves as gay/queer for lots of reasons, but among them is all the times they hear someone just casually toss out "that's gay!" or "what a bunch of fags" in conversation. Using those words like that reinforces their negative meaning, and if someone can avoid being perceived negatively by not saying a few words, they'll stay quiet. You don't know if the people you're talking to are gay.

I'm not saying you aren't completely right about this. I'm saying people like dday (unenlightened and unthoughtful to a certain extent) probably won't give a shit no matter what you say. They'll probably be respectful to YOU and not say it around YOU but they'll still think the same way and your preaching won't change their perspective. Because they really don't have one and won't want one.
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Extremist are really just a hand full out there compared to the entire race of humans and to fully think about them maybe the nice way of thinking till look below the surface there views tainted and built up hate for a certain subject all you encouraging there hate and that they should be mad about anything and that I disagree with.

 i didn't really read this or your other posts but i read "entire race of humans...below the surface" and if you are talking about a lost race of blind albinos that live beneath the earth's crust then yes
 
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Like, I remember once faust was talking about how the kids in his class he was teaching use the word fag and gay all the time in misguided useage. He came to the conclusion that though what they were saying was in a way hurtful to him, he understood that for the most part that was not their intent. That they were just stupid kids not realizing or caring about what they were saying and so he "let it go" in a sense.

What I'm saying is that right there is the kind of person I'm talking about and if fucking faust of all people can do that then you should be more than capable.

I'm not saying "don't tell dday saying fag is dumb" I'm saying telling him once should give you the impression of whether its gonna matter to him or not. That post dday made after having been confronted about it is probably how dday is gonna feel unless he sees some shit for himself or grows up a little bit. But I like you dday and I like your young minded-ness. I don't really find it offensive but thats because I have to live with this shit every day which is why I'm trying to make the point I'm trying to make.
 
Also it is completely self-centered and shitty to say that because I'm a white straight male this shit doesn't effect me or I don't think about it. I do all the time and pretty much everytime I hear the words nigger, bitch, or faggot shit runs through my head. But I'm not gonna say I think about it more or less than you though cus I don't know you.
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Like, I remember once faust was talking about how the kids in his class he was teaching use the word fag and gay all the time in misguided useage. He came to the conclusion that though what they were saying was in a way hurtful to him, he understood that for the most part that was not their intent. That they were just stupid kids not realizing or caring about what they were saying and so he "let it go" in a sense.

What I'm saying is that right there is the kind of person I'm talking about and if fucking faust of all people can do that then you should be more than capable.

I'm not saying "don't tell dday saying fag is dumb" I'm saying telling him once should give you the impression of whether its gonna matter to him or not. That post dday made after having been confronted about it is probably how dday is gonna feel unless he sees some shit for himself or grows up a little bit. But I like you dday and I like your young minded-ness. I don't really find it offensive but thats because I have to live with this shit every day which is why I'm trying to make the point I'm trying to make.
 
Also it is completely self-centered and shitty to say that because I'm a white straight male this shit doesn't effect me or I don't think about it. I do all the time and pretty much everytime I hear the words nigger, bitch, or faggot shit runs through my head. But I'm not gonna say I think about it more or less than you though cus I don't know you.

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Saying a man is Mansplaining (being a man and talking about a important topic related to women's rights) is as sexist as saying a woman is just bitching (when they complain about the unfairness of society to women). I can understand saying 'mansplaining' as a "Here's a taste of your own medicine, dicks", but continual use is just lowering to the sexist asshole's level. Also, Farren isn't being a sexist dick so your ire is mis-targeted, fuckcrypt.

Like I can't fathom looking at the term 'mansplaining' as legitimate tool to fix gender relations (though I suppose that isn't its purpose?). Its just stokes the fire. If anything, its use is oddly a stereotypically sexist man response, 'insult and dismiss'.

I can understand 'talking down to women' as the definition of mansplaining. but then I really don't understand why stating ones point of view makes it seem like they are talking down to them. Other men talk/explain to me the same way, arguably, as have women.
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Do men mansplain to other men? Is it still mansplaining then?
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Look, I think there may be even a few Lgbt people who've used "the F-word" in their own book titles for varied reasons- sometimes one must be unapologetic-  that language changes over time, but some words still sting, that, indeed, there are situations where one must weather things or let them go. While I can try to shape opinions, in the end what you say and when is your choice, but many people listen to and make allowances for those closest to them, and it's oftne safest tho handle certain words as if they were bombs- carefully.

What you do outside of here, guys, is your business, and I, for one, respect that, but please, while you're here, try to keep your audience in mind. It's like your buddy with allergies; he's not telling  you you can't eat nuts, but, knowing he's allergic to them, asks that you don't serve him any, and try not to have them around while he visits. For some of us certain words are poison; please, when talking to us, try not to serve us any. Thanks.
 
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Saying a man is Mansplaining (being a man and talking about a important topic related to women's rights) is as sexist as saying a woman is just bitching (when they complain about the unfairness of society to women). I can understand saying 'mansplaining' as a "Here's a taste of your own medicine, dicks", but continual use is just lowering to the sexist asshole's level. Also, Farren isn't being a sexist dick so your ire is mis-targeted, fuckcrypt.

Like I can't fathom looking at the term 'mansplaining' as legitimate tool to fix gender relations (though I suppose that isn't its purpose?). Its just stokes the fire. If anything, its use is oddly a stereotypically sexist man response, 'insult and dismiss'.

I can understand 'talking down to women' as the definition of mansplaining. but then I really don't understand why stating ones point of view makes it seem like they are talking down to them. Other men talk/explain to me the same way, arguably, as have women.


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Take off Every ZIG! :P
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