they forgot to mention rape in award-winning video games using the international indie pixel art style by imbeciles who staunchly believe they're actually making a significant artistic gesture http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=7086.0

edit: that thread's missing the comment where the creator said something like "killing and murder is everywhere in video games...why is rape any different?" followed by some sort of comment about the future of video games

they forgot to mention rape in award-winning video games using the international indie pixel art style by imbeciles who staunchly believe they're actually making a significant artistic gesture http://forums.tigsource.com/index.php?topic=7086.0

edit: that thread's missing the comment where the creator said something like "killing and murder is everywhere in video games...why is rape any different?" followed by some sort of comment about the future of video games

holy shit.  kill me.

Unless you're willing to realize the ways in which the oppression differs between groups there is no way to even begin discussing it.

I do and I have not denied that. There is realizing and taking offense. You realize something is wrong and you try to fix it. Feminism is defensive, al sharpton is defensive. All of these self-identifying classifications are defensive. All of these groups should unite under the banner of HUMAN RIGHTS and CIVIL RIGHTS once you do that and reach a base level of rights for everyone that same group can go to make changes in culture and perception with the group. Also for Rule of law and necessity of law for the individual sets of people beneath it.

It is much more effective and much more profound that way. I'm not saying women dealing with a man oppressing them on a certain level shouldn't go talk to other women for theraputic reasons. I'm saying if you want shit to change one group doing it while self-identifying and excluding all others is completely wrong.
You're sending me the same jargon you've been saying its fucking self-identification. I read it. Young boys are raped almost as much as women by both sexes. Neither women nor men WANT TO TALK ABOUT BEING RAPED. Especially men. Probably for mysogonistic reasons ie loss of empowerment and the ego but that is a wholly male problem and that has nothing to do with feminism. It has everything to do with testosterone and the concept of masculinity. Masculinity is not inherantly a concept of the overbearing and dominant. Thats not what that means.

Masculinity is a male concept of strength and power. You can be a strong compassionate person and not overbearing and dominant. That is a feminist attack and misconception of manhood.

Men have rape culture too and emphasizing a woman's and disreguarding a man's because its not as prominent is wrong.

Men raping men, men raping children, women raping men. Women grope women catcall women oggle. This is not because adam was a piece of shit that decided he was stronger so he'd dominate eve. No, thats people. People who that have more power without compassion inherantly do that shit. These feminist themes and ideals are ignoring the fact that it IS universal that is self gratification and self-identification.
 
I'm not saying this isn't more prominent for women. I'm saying women and feminists should self-identify and exclude everyone else, that is wrong.
 
Feminism is very important but self-gratifying feminism and exclusive feminism is counter productive.
 
The thick skin I'm talking about is not an attack on the humorless but an insistance to go back to our survival mechanisms. Our abilities to cope and adapt to a harsh environment we cannot control, both physically and mentally. Not to strictly block out the world around you but realize if you want to be apart of that world you have to be stronger than the harshness.

There is realizing and taking offense. You realize something is wrong and you try to fix it. Feminism is defensive, al sharpton is defensive.

You literally just compared feminism to Al Sharpton.  Think about that.  Think about how fucking dumb that is.

All of these self-identifying classifications are defensive. All of these groups should unite under the banner of HUMAN RIGHTS and CIVIL RIGHTS once you do that and reach a base level of rights for everyone that same group can go to make changes in culture and perception with the group. Also for Rule of law and necessity of law for the individual sets of people beneath it.

http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/04/12/faq-why-feminism-and-not-just-humanism-or-equalism-isnt-saying-youre-a-feminist-exclusionary/

It is much more effective and much more profound that way. I'm not saying women dealing with a man oppressing them on a certain level shouldn't go talk to other women for theraputic reasons. I'm saying if you want shit to change one group doing it while self-identifying and excluding all others is completely wrong.

Feminism doesn't exclude men.  Feminism excludes men from being the one making the decisions.  It's not a man's place to decide what terms women will end their own oppression and the reasons for this should be obvious.  Mens roles in feminism is as allies, not leaders.

You're sending me the same jargon you've been saying its fucking self-identification. I read it. Young boys are raped almost as much as women by both sexes. Neither women nor men WANT TO TALK ABOUT BEING RAPED. Especially men. Probably for mysogonistic reasons ie loss of empowerment and the ego but that is a wholly male problem and that has nothing to do with feminism. It has everything to do with testosterone and the concept of masculinity. Masculinity is not inherantly a concept of the overbearing and dominant. Thats not what that means.

Plenty of women would like to talk about being raped but won't do it because of the repercussions.  Same for men.  It's pretty hasty to say that the way male rape victims are treated has nothing to do with feminism though.  Rape is "supposed" to be something that happens to women.  Men are never supposed to turn down sex.  That's a misogynist issue.  Destroying misogyny is what feminism is about.  More focus is put on female rape victims for obvious reasons, however, especially because when the way male rape victims are treated is brought up in feminist discussions historically it is so the men in the conversation can draw attention away from the rape of women (which is far more common statistically).  They're both problems, and they're both part of feminism.

At this point I don't know what we're arguing about.


e: you posted while I was writing my post:

Men have rape culture too

It's the same rape culture, but it hurts women in far greater numbers.  It's still the SAME culture though, it's the same system.

Men raping men, men raping children, women raping men. Women grope women catcall women oggle. This is not because adam was a piece of shit that decided he was stronger so he'd dominate eve. No, thats people people that have more power inherantly do that shit and ignoring the fact that it IS universal is self gratification and self-identification.

Don't even start with the women catcall too bullshit.  Stop trying to compare something rare to something that is part of the daily life of women all over the place.  Don't belittle women's problems.

I'm not saying this isn't more prominent for women. I'm saying women and feminists should self-identify and exclude everyone else, that is wrong.
 
Feminism is very important but self-gratifying feminism and exclusive feminism is counter productive.

I already said this earlier but men are not excluded from feminism.  They're excluded from being the decision makers in feminism.  They're welcome to ask questions and they're welcome to be feminist allies (which is what Dada has been doing), but they are NOT welcome to try to dictate like you are doing right now by saying how YOU think feminism should be run and should be promoted and how YOU think it's counter productive.  There's nothing counter productive about feminism.  What you are doing in these two posts you just made is just trying to shift the focus back to men.  Do you not see a problem with constantly trying to shift conversations about womens issues to your own issues and to men's issues while simultaneously saying feminism is a cop out and counterproductive and self-gratifying?  I'd recommend you read up on feminism more before you try to continue this discussion because I honestly don't think you know enough about what you're talking about to be making these claims.


e: re: the ways patriarchy hurts men too, I do think it can't be entirely divorced from feminism.  I do however, for the reasons I just said in the previous paragraph, think they don't have a lot of place in feminist discussion.  Here's some reasons why, and I hope you read this before you post again:
http://finallyfeminism101.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/phmt-argument/

I can say somethings wrong if I want to. Thats my right. Its wrong. Its the same as al sharpton because al sharpton is a defensive dick head who every time something happens to black people or black culture that could slightly be concieved as a hatecrime he drills on that shit like a hell banshee trying to get a rise out of people and pull at their emotions and goad them into ignorance. Conventional feminism, you're damn links do the same thing to women everywhere. Causing them to take up a false sense of personal belittlement. It makes them look at the world around them as completely oppressive and destructive to their egos and it seperates them from all of the other suffering people around them too. Whose problems are more important? Yours because your a woman? What about everyone else? You have no opinion because your a woman? thats bullshit.

I can say somethings wrong if I want to. Thats my right. Its wrong. Its the same as al sharpton because al sharpton is a defensive dick head who every time something happens to black people or black culture that could slightly be concieved as a hatecrime he drills on that shit like a hell banshee trying to get a rise out of people and pull at their emotions and goad them into ignorance. Conventional feminism, you're damn links do the same thing to women everywhere. Causing them to take up a false sense of empowerment and seperate themselves from all of the other suffering people around them too. Whose problems are more important? Yours because your a woman? What about everyone else? You have no opinion because your a woman? thats bullshit.

this post is bullshit and you don't know anything about feminism so you should probably just quit while you're ahead thanks.

I'M A FEMINIST GUESS THAT MEANS I LITERALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BUT WOMEN I GUESS.  I'M SO IRRATIONAL I'M ALMOST HYSTERICAL HUH GUYS?  HEY BY THE WAY LADIES I KNOW YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE ISSUES YOU FACE RIGHT NOW BUT LET ME JUST KEEP REMINDING YOU HOW MEN HAVE IT TOUGH TOO INSTEAD OF LISTENING TO YOU FOR EVEN A SECOND.

No you don't

Those are a bunch of arbitrary statements and conclusions that make women out to be culturally terrorised and attacked on a consistant basis. There is no alternative and there is no other-side and any other viewpoint is either mysogonistic or part of feminism. Its intellectually debilitating and it forces self-identifying feminists to come to conclusions that cannot be changed unless they somehow stop self-identifying on their own (why would you?) and come to another conclusion that, that form of feminism is bullshit on their own. Because you know, a man can't say that because that would change their base belief system. um.....hows shit change then?
 

I'M A FEMINIST GUESS THAT MEANS I LITERALLY DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYTHING BUT WOMEN I GUESS.

Your concept of modern manhood and womanhood is totally overbearing on your own damn mind. Its putting up walls that shouldn't be there anymore. Its archaic

Those are a bunch of arbitrary statements and conclusions that make women out to be culturally terrorised and attacked on a consistant basis.

They are.

Please define what you mean by "that form of feminism" and please tell me what sort of feminism you think is appropriate.  Tell me what feminism's goals are (as you understand them currently and what you think its ideal goals are in your own opinion) and tell me what you think it means to be oppressed as a woman.  I'm dying to know.


e:

Your concept of modern manhood and womanhood is totally overbearing on your own damn mind. Its putting up walls that shouldn't be there anymore. Its archaic

Thanks for telling me that none of this stuff applies anymore when I fucking live it, as does every other woman in every feminist discussion I've been in.  You're fucking blind to it because we live in a society that caters to you as a man.  It's called male privilege, google it sometime.


e2: and before you get fussy about my tone again, consider the fact that I didn't have to take this tone with Warped or Puppet Master.  That's because they genuinely asked questions and tried to find ways to treat people nicer rather than sit here and try to tear feminism limb from limb without knowing a goddamn thing about it (I mean seriously, you called Margaret Fucking Atwood an old woman who doesn't know what she's talking about and compare feminism to Al Sharpton, you really don't deserve to be taken seriously at this point on any of this because those two things are proof of your pure ignorance on this subject).

There was a great thread on SA called "Tell me what it's like to be a woman" that opened a TON of guy's eyes to the fact that sexism in fact is not anywhere near over and that women still have heaps and heaps of shit piled on them every single day.  Unfortunately I think it's archived now, I'll link to it in case it isn't but I might pull out some choice quotes if it is:


e: it's archived, i posted quotes below

the only defensible position IMO is for a complete rejection of all identity politics in favor for a collective abolition of all gender distinctions between sexes

I work in the electronics department of a store. Several times I've asked people if they needed help and they responded with "it's ok I want to ask a man my question." Mostly older people but really? I do love it though when they go and ask a male coworker, who then tells them they don't know and to go ask me because I'm the one who would know.

In my teens I really hated being a woman. I hated all the negative connotations, hated being weak, hated periods, hated that there were no women sports teams. I hated how when it was a holiday, all the men would be in the living room watching a sports game or something and all the women would have to cook and gossip in the kitchen. Hated doors being opened for me, hated being treated as anything less or other than equal.

Yeah, I've been in situations where I'd be putting brake fluid in and some asshole would swagger up and be like, "CAN I HELP YOU, LITTLE LADY? I KNOW CARS." And you can't tell those people that you're fine, you know what you're doing, cuz they insist on "taking a look under there for ya", like there's gonna be a big On/Off switch set in the Off position that they can just point to and say, "Well HERE'S your problem!" Every single time they do that, I end up explaining the problem to them and they have no idea what I'm talking about. They just assume that men are more mechanically-minded, so even though they know nothing about cars, they're still more in a position to determine the problem than a woman.

And don't get me started on being bilked at the shop because men assume women will have no idea what they need fixed and will just pay for anything. I've had guys stopping just short of putting "headlight fluid" or "muffler belt" on the bill. And they don't apologize when you point out that you know your shit and you're not paying such outrageous prices. They just shrug and adjust the bill, like "well, I guess YOU got me, but honestly, it's expected that we do this to women."

I feel unsafe very often. I'm probably over-paranoid and influenced by media espousing dangers. I know that a woman is seen as an easy target. Not to mention the added element of sexual assault. That's one huge privilege men have, and something they should acknowledge when dealing with women. Many guys will get angry when women aren't immediately receptive to them. We're just protecting ourselves. I call this my bitch shield. Since I feel vulnerable so often, I force myself to walk with confidence and scowl at everybody around me.

As you can probably tell from my tone in the previous points, I actually feel a little slighted. I feel slighted by society, by the expectations placed upon me, by the things I have to worry about that men will never have to. I don't hate being a woman. But I hate what being a woman entails. Granted women have it much better today than years before, but the fact that we're still not 100% equal is not ok. Most people will remark "that's just the way it is." No, that's not just the way it is and just because you're ok with it doesn't make it nice and dandy.
I don't enjoy being underrepresented in media and politics, I don't like old white men voting on what I can do with my body, I don't like people brushing off my complaints because men and women are supposedly equal now that women can vote, I don't like facing threats of a sexual nature, I don't like people pushing my voice to the side because I'm female, I don't like people using my own personal shortcomings as a mark against my whole gender, I don't like people being surprised when I show competence in something that isn't typically female, I loathe how women are still paid less than men, I hate how prevalent sexual harassment in the workplace is, and I CAN'T FUCKING STAND double standards.

I repeat--even if I choose to ignore someone who's calling me "sweet thing" without scowling or making a face, this will cause the other person to confront me. One example of this is when I was riding the bus alone as a 17-year old. A taller guy kept yelling "hey girl," and it took me a while to realize he was yelling at me. I didn't know him, so I just pretended to be absorbed in the book I was reading and ignored him, and he leaned forward and shook my bus seat until I looked up at him! The next time someone on the bus called me "girl," I narrowed my eyes at him to signal that I didn't appreciate his attention, and he actually got up and moved to the seat behind me until I got off at my stop. When I told my mom about it later, she got upset, told me I was asking for trouble by doing that, and asked me why I didn't just ignore him. Situations like these are part of why many women act cute and smile even when they're getting unwanted attention--sometimes, doing anything but giving a man attention can cause confrontation. This is part of why it's very important that you address harassment in your camp, if it happens.

Speaking of danger, it's something I'm constantly thinking about if I'm walking around by myself at night. "What would I do if a strange man came up to me right now?" "Which direction should I run in?" "Can I even run in these shoes?" "Where's the nearest safe, well lit area?" This is why I usually keep my eyes open and will look straight ahead to avoid any potential eye contact. I don't want any trouble, so I want to ignore you in hopes that you will reciprocate.

I'm heavily involved in lifting and strength sports. It really fucking sucks being a woman, especially if you're interest in coaching or training others in any capacity. A guy will always get asked advice first--even if he is weaker than you and started lifting last week--and if you are actually asked advice it is taken with a giant dose of skepticism and often ignored.

Women are often perceived to be entirely at the mercy of their raging hormones. For the record, while there are some women who suffer severe mood swings as a result of their menstrual cycle and birth control, the majority of women do not undergo major personality changes every single month. It's very frustrating to feel like you can't express dissatisfaction or anger without being condescendingly told that you're probably just on the rag and you don't really mean what you're saying. Things as minor as saying you'd rather eat Thai tonight or as justifiable as saying you don't want to be called "sweetie" by your male co-worker can be attributed to your period. I often find myself refraining from making comments that I know are absolutely reasonable and justified because I really don't want to be accused of being a psycho bitch on the rag.

I know this has been brought up before, but personal safety is by far the biggest difference in how men and women approach day to day life. I know very few men who frame their day to day interactions on the assumption that they may be assaulted. My fear of being attacked informs how I talk to strange men, where I sit on the train, when and where I walk alone outside, how much I drink at a bar, where I park my car, what apartment I rent, what shoes I wear out (can I run in them?), and a million other little things. Also relevant is the fact that I am expected to simultaneously be accountable for any "lapse in judgement" that may lead to me being assaulted and yet be friendly and accommodating to anyone who chooses to interact with me. If a strange man at a bar persistently offered me a drink and I turned him down, especially if I did it without being nice, I'd be labeled a bitch. But if I accepted the drink and he drugged it and sexually assaulted me, I would be held at least partially responsible for not guarding my drink and accepting a drink from a stranger and not having a buddy to watch me to make sure nobody drugged me and dragged me off. Oh yeah, we're supposed to have buddies if we go drinking. That's not condescending at all.

* I've been inundated with advice on "how to avoid being kidnapped" and "how to avoid being raped." As an adult woman, I'm still consistently provided tips along these lines and reminded that I need to protect myself. As a result...

* I always take my keys out of my purse before leaving a building, to minimize the amount of time I spend standing around alone in an empty/dark parking lot.

* Doing laundry at night, in the laundry room of my apartment complex, can actually be scary. I'm acutely aware of the fact that it's a small, almost always empty room, and it would be easy for someone to follow me in and lock the door behind them.

* Walking outside at night alone takes some consideration. If I do have to walk somewhere, I'll intentionally try to avoid men unless it's a sufficiently crowded street, that it feels safe.

* If I'm walking somewhere alone at night, I'll walk farthest from any dark areas, bushes, or alleys...anywhere where someone could hide or drag me out of sight.

* If there's a man walking behind me, as I'm walking to my apartment door, I always wait for them to pass (and for enough distance between us), before I unlock my door and go inside.

* I actually worry about being hit on. In the wrong setting (work, for example, or alone at night) it just creates problems.

Safety is something I think about a lot. I think women get a lot of flak for being "overly paranoid" but, again, the "THERE ARE MEN LOOKING TO KIDNAP AND RAPE YOU!!!!" message is pretty constant. And, honestly, there are men out there looking to kidnap and rape women, so what are you going to do? You have to try and balance safety with living as best as you can.

there's plenty more where these came from

I'm gonna be totally honest here though if it wasn't for the fact that I'm hoping to encourage lurkers to think about this harder I probably wouldn't bother.  I really don't expect to convince Farren of any of this.

In that case I want you to knwo I've, thought more about this stuff in the past two days than I have in the past two years. I don't agree with everything you've said but it's given me food for thought and made me try harder to emphasize and form my own opinions. So thanks, and I'm glad you decided to come back to Salt World.

did this come up yet btw http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_gaze

ruining movies is one of my favourite activities, and spending the entire time thinking about male gaze can ruin a lot of movies. even irked me when i watched Dark City. a friend of mine used it to analyse facebook's presentation of social interaction through a male lens in a big media law project she did. (it was about the censorship of exposed nipples in men vs women. turns out women's bodies are considered particularly dangerous. my flabby chest on tv? absolutely! encouraged! a lady's chest? it will corrupt the youth.)

Please define what you mean by "that form of feminism" and please tell me what sort of feminism you think is appropriate.  Tell me what feminism's goals are (as you understand them currently and what you think its ideal goals are in your own opinion) and tell me what you think it means to be oppressed as a woman.

This is where I won't budge and you keep railing against my beliefs thinking I don't have the EXACT SAME perception of what a woman's oppression is. What I'm talking about is how feminists deal with that oppression and how they percieve the masculine side of said oppression.

What some might percieve as oggling (I'm not talking about catcalling) to some men is appreciation of a woman's beauty and a biological response to it. How that man handles himself after said woman shows no interest is where mysogony comes into play and whether or not its actually oggling. This is one of the many misconceptions I'm talking about. Like if you look at a handsome dude or a beautiful women if thats your sexuality and your comfortable with your own sexuality. You're going to look at them, it is a biological response regardless of sex and its natural.

A woman's empowerment is very important in my opinion. But not in a sense of the world around her bearing down on her and tearing her apart with its cruelty which feminism (to me) seems to focus on almost entirely. But a woman's actual empowerment. Her natural perspective a man isn't born with (this has nothing to do with mysogony or culture), her natural grace and beauty that men aren't born with, and her ability to give life.

You're saying I shouldn't say this shit because I'm not a woman. I'm saying women and men are two parts of a whole and you can't have one without the other. One can't ever seek and find true freedom and acceptance without the understanding and support of the other. Some feminist ideals negate this which is what I've been driving at this whole time. And I'm not specifically talking about sexuality when I say one and the other. I'm talking about the whole way of thinking, physical manifestation, your very existance whether or not you're gay straight black or what comes into two things: man or woman. Trans is still a manifestation to that because its still a mental conformity to the masculine or feminine. Though these things aren't definite and there are varying levels of masculine and feminine.

I would GLADLY love to hear a woman tell me what she desires from a man. How she would like a man to act in her presence and treat her, as far as respect or what have you. That is not condescending to me. Thats telling me what she wants and what she finds offensive and not offensive. This whole. I'll tell you what I think about mysogony and how its demeaning to me but I won't hear the same thing about feminism is ignorant. Thats sharing information and beliefs and learning from them. I don't want to tell women what to do or how to carry themselves I just wish there was a less defensive way for them to do that, that didn't exclude alot of people. I don't give enough of a shit to go out and try to be a male feminist leader. Not because I don't give a shit about womens rights just because I hate arguing about it but I'm tired of seeing the same shit over and over and over again. Its effectively done nothing because MOST WOMEN ignore conventional feminism to that extent (from my experience). And I really doubt thats because of sheer ignorance but the exclusion itself.

I read somewhere about a new age feminism or a new perception of feminism (developed by women) that focused on this but I can't remember the details or where I got it from. But that kind of empowerment to me as a human being and not a man is so much more powerful than victimizing yourself and blaming society for oppression and not actually finding a way to deal with and overcome it. To me its not dealing with anything its not empowering yourself at all its putting up walls. Like a victim to me can't overcome the thing victimizing her. You have to personally refuse to aknowledge it as a victim in my opinion.
 
This whole idea that society is out to get you. Society is a machine, media is a cog, these things in the bigger sense of life aren't as important as actual people and what actual people think and believe about themselves regardless of society and media or their own physical manifestation. That is what needs to be focused on and conveyed through speech, art, individualism. When you define yourself by society and media you're limiting all of that greater meaning and pursuit. Fuck what society and media tells you if you focus on what it tells you less shit gets done.