Relax was a poor choice of words on my part and I apologize. It just seems like every single post you've made as of late is just yelling at people and there are better ways of getting your point across than being abrasive towards everyone that thinks differently than you.

I said it in my post to Warped but these things pile up.  You get tired of being called bitch, faggot, etc.  You also get tired of explaining to people why it's not okay.  You eventually get sick of trying to calmly and nicely explain this when you've done it a million times and you just flat out tell people to cut it out or fuck off.  My post to Warped wasn't angry at all.  I don't know what you mean by "every post I've made of late" since I've not been posting until just now (and if you are referring to what happened that caused me to leave don't because it goes far deeper than you're aware of and you're not capable of telling me how I should have reacted to that).  There are certain things that are going to make me frustrated and this is one of those things.  It doesn't matter what tone I'm taking, I'm explaining my arguments (for EDC this was mostly done in IRC) and they're the same whether I do so angrily or not.  Be being angry about an understandably irritating and emotional subject doesn't disqualify what I've said.

ugh i can't not reply to all this

hi dday it's your pal vellfire and saying fag is never okay no matter who you say it to so cut that shit out it isn't cool.  seriously stop trying to explain why it's okay because it isn't ever.  don't tell people what they can and can't get mad about also.  thanks.

i'm glad you're telling dday off for this but at the same time of course it's not at the top of your list of things to get upset about because it doesn't affect you personally at all.  that doesn't mean this isn't important and you shouldn't diminish the importance of this WHILE calling someone out for it, it's not very helpful to tell dday to cut it out and then say "yeah but it's not really a big deal" because it is a big deal whether it's a big deal to you or not.

~ * ~ G O I N G B A C K I N T O T H E A B Y S S N O W ~ * ~

ugh i can't not reply to all this

hi dday it's your pal vellfire and saying fag is never okay no matter who you say it to so cut that shit out it isn't cool.  seriously stop trying to explain why it's okay because it isn't ever.  don't tell people what they can and can't get mad about also.  thanks.

i'm glad you're telling dday off for this but at the same time of course it's not at the top of your list of things to get upset about because it doesn't affect you personally at all.  that doesn't mean this isn't important and you shouldn't diminish the importance of this WHILE calling someone out for it, it's not very helpful to tell dday to cut it out and then say "yeah but it's not really a big deal" because it is a big deal whether it's a big deal to you or not.

~ * ~ G O I N G B A C K I N T O T H E A B Y S S N O W ~ * ~

Sorry it's not a big deal and to be honest I'm not telling them what they should or should not get mad about I'm just showing where I'm coming from. So to be honest I simple do not care about small issue that seem to be amplified by a certain way of thinking thanks DDay.

Also about that bitch thing  Vellfire I know some girls that address each other as bitch/bitchs in a friendly manner.

Sorry it not a big deal and to be honest I'm not telling them what they should or should not get mad about so to be honest I simple do not care thanks DDay.

Hi, it is a big deal and if we have to chat this out on IRC we will but I'm not giving up on you DDay you're too good of a person to be doing this bullshit that you're doing right now.  Cut it out dude.

Hi, it is a big deal and if we have to chat this out on IRC we will but I'm not giving up on you DDay you're too good of a person to be doing this bullshit that you're doing right now.  Cut it out dude.

Kind of did bit of editing what I had to say but I"m sorry some point of views will not change. I understand Vellfrie and sympathies with you on somethings you say but something  are bit extreme ways of thinking. Like the last part I said on last post things can be used in many ways like the word bitch doesn't need to be bad. It's all bout perspective.

Kind of did bit of editing what I had to say but I"m sorry some point of views will not change. I understand Vellfrie and sympathies with somethings you say  are bit extreme ways of thinking. Like the last part I said on last post things can be used in many ways like the word bitch doesn't need to be bad. It's all bout perspective.

DDay you're looking from YOUR perspective though.  You're giving no thought to the people around you.  You don't care how words like bitch and faggot affect other people.  By the way, a word like bitch HAS occasionally been reappropriated by women but you're not a woman so you don't get to do that.  There actually IS no way that you, DDay, can say bitch without it being pretty horrible.  The problem is you, like most of us, have been raised in an environment that tells you that these things are okay to say.  They aren't.  Don't call people bitches and faggots DDay.  That's not an extreme point of view, it's called being a kind person.  I'm serious DDay, if you ever call me a bitch, even in jest, I don't think I can consider us friends anymore.  It's really easy for you to not see a problem with these words because they aren't targeted at you, which is why you have to listen to the people they do target and find out that hey, they make me and others feel like absolute shit and you're being a huge asshole by using them and not caring.  Do you really not have a problem using words that make me feel really gross?  We're buds DDay, I'd like it to stay that way.

There's also the fact that there are plenty of women who do misogynist things because we live in a misogynist as fuck world that encourages women to hate and dismiss themselves/each other in that way.  That doesn't make it okay.

There are also black people who call each other "nigger", that doesn't mean you should do the same.

I'm just saying there is ways they are not bad Also I would never call you one... vellfire I just making a point as  it stands at the moment are ways of think are on two different levels. I'm looking at it from many prospective but to be honest I can't sympathies from extremist prospective. before I said the word fags. I asked myself if I was gay and I used to describe a team way of playing would they care and it came back to me as no they will not. the only two prospective I could see someone getting mad are if I was a Pittsburgh fan/team member or an Extremist. One I have bit sympathy for and the other one is just annoyed at anything and I could never please so I'm not going to try.

I know they aren't comparable. But I can at least imagine the emotional damage caused by being verbally attacked as a minority group is merely the exponential equivalent of the same for a non-minority. I can imagine the same BUT MORE of what I felt would be harder to ignore/tolerate, but not impossible.

No, it is impossible.  It's not just having your feelings hurt, it's just a reaffirmation of the way society as a whole treats you.  If you're constantly surrounded by sexism or homophobia, words like bitch and faggot are icing on the cake.  The words cannot be separated from the attitudes in society.  I can't say that because I've had strep throat I know what having throat cancer is like, I can't even begin to imagine it.

Being heard all the time though can have a multitude of effects, from being extremely demoralizing (Like what you are saying) or normalizing/taking the bite out of the words.

Idiot and moron, are words in that in the past, were used to merely describe people in various states of mental retardation. Now, because of its use to denote poor mental abilities, it eventually just became an insult.

etc. etc.

That's great.  The words we're talking about right now aren't like that though.  What is happening right now is these words are hate speech and people are applying that hate speech into insults towards people outside of the original group.  So, someone starts calling people fags casually.  The implication is still "you are like a homosexual, and that is bad and you should feel bad about it."  If this kept happening long enough, sure, it may lose its original connotation with homosexuality.  But, and this is where your argument doesn't really work, for it to get to that point you have to keep using the word like that.  In the meantime, you're going to be hurting a lot of people.  Why should LGBT people have to put up with a bunch of straight guys calling each other fags in online games and feel miserable about it just because of some hypothetical future where it'll just be a general insult (because clearly we need more insults in our world)?  Why isn't it easier to just QUIT USING IT?

What matters is THE INTENT to be offensive. Not the word. Making up newer words to replace a 'defiled' word is just giving the people that are being offensive new ammunition.

Intent does matter, but it isn't magic.  If you unintentionally hurt (again, I don't think offend properly covers it) someone with your speech, if your intent is good you'll apologize.  You don't start telling the person how they shouldn't be offended.

We talk about fag and faggot, but the words gay, queer, homo, or homosexual is just as offensive in the same context. Meaning it just seems like people are picking random words of the bunch to be permanently off limits to even the non-prejudiced non-dickery context. Saying the word 'faggot' in the context of a joke is equal to using 'homosexual' in the same joke, so why is faggot worse? It comes off as a pointless distinction.

Those words have been reclaimed BY THE LGBT COMMUNITY.  Not by straight people calling each other fags on message boards.  Context absolutely does matter, and calling someone queer in the sense of "this person identifies as queer" is perfectly fine even if you're straight.  Calling someone queer as an insult isn't.  There isn't really a context (other than a post like mine where I'm discussing the word as a word) where faggot is okay.  Faggot hasn't been reclaimed in a positive way by the LGBT community.  That's the difference, and it's not your job as a (presumably) straight person to change that.  You don't get to make that choice.  Your job is to not hurt marginalized people.

If people never used the word 'bitch' to insult you for the things commonly associated with the word 'bitch' they'd just use another word.

And this wouldn't be okay either.  The reason I'm putting so much effort into this topic instead of just saying "hey don't say faggot" is this--getting rid of words doesn't solve the problem.  It does keep people from being hurt by them in the process, so that's good, but the reason I'm typing so much is that I want you to understand WHY you shouldn't say them.  When you start understanding this, it changes your attitude and your perception on the subject.  If enough people have their attitudes changed, there won't be a NEED for a mean word to call women or homosexuals.  I'm not JUST saying "don't say these words", I'm trying to explain WHY so that you won't even feel a need to.

People hate being excluded. They REALLY HATE IT. They also don't like being told what to do/say (unless conditioned) but that's not as important as "We are allowed to do this because we are in <exclusive group> that is impossible for you enter, fuck off."

-I bitterly dislike exclusion/being excluded/other people being excluded from my group.

I really don't get where you're going with this.  Gay people can't make you gay.  Black people can't make you black.  Women can't make you a woman.  There is NO WAY for you to not be excluded by these groups.  Even if I could make you a woman right now, you weren't raised as a woman.  You have no idea what it's like to grow up in a misogynistic society.  You don't have the background and these experiences.  For someone who thinks people being "offended" are being irrational, you sure are being a huge mess of irrational right now.  The trick is just to LISTEN to these groups.  Let LGBT people and black people and women tell you about their experiences.  You'll get a much better understanding of why these words hurt and why it's important for you to quit using them.

People who aren't the down trodden (white, straight, male) think they want to be the down trodden because then they get a cause to fight for. I think that might be a big reason why the common white/male nerd wants to live in a dystopia/apocalypse so they can fulfill the need/urge to FIGHT THE OPPRESSORS/MAJOR THREAT (which in real life no longer exist for them).

I agree that this is the case.  This is one huge reason why straight white guys like to defend hate speech, by the way.  By defending pretty indefensible words, they get minority groups (and those who defend them) to tell them to cut it out and then they get to play the victim despite living in a world that caters to them and puts them on top all the time.  The pure FACT that a straight non-poor white cis man is on top of the food chain is why they cannot try to redefine them.  You think "hey, if we keep saying this word it'll lose its power!"  The thing is, you have to HAVE power to decide you can do that.  Because you're part of the privileged group, you by default think you get to make these decisions.  If you really care about this sort of thing, that's why you put the power in the hands of the minority groups themselves.  Let women decide what to do with the word bitch, let LGBT people decide what to do with faggot.  Don't dismiss their concerns and their feelings or tell them what we really SHOULD be doing with them.  I know you hate being excluded, but it's not your fight.  It's not your decision.  It can never be.  I'm sorry you weren't born as a poor black trans woman disabled lesbian but you weren't.

before I said the word fags. I asked myself if I was gay and I used to describe a team way of playing would they care and it came back to me as no they will not.

DDay you aren't gay.  That's the thing.  You're not gay and you have no idea how it would affect you if you were because you AREN'T.  You don't have any clue what being gay is like.  You aren't qualified to make this sort of judgement.  So why don't you listen to someone who IS gay (say, Faust) and get a better idea of how you'd feel.  Surprise!  You'd feel pretty rotten!  DDay, you're a good guy, why in the world would you say something that hurts people?  You're being told right here that it's hurtful, so just don't do it.  There is no reason to hurt people on purpose.

answer me this: would you ever call a black person a nigger? ever? under any circumstance? even as a joke?

obviously you wouldn't, so why not do the same for "faggot"?

 I did not say "fagot" I said "fags". "Faggot"  is aimed at a individual and mine was at a team and the word "faggot"  is more hateful in my option then the word fags. Since I think when you aim at an individual it become more personal and become more meaningful to the recipient. BTW dada I did not call a group of gay fags I called a hockey team. clearly two different things.

Your still think on the extremist level most would not care.

I did not say "fagot" I said "fags". "Faggot"  is aimed at a individual and mine was at a team and the word "faggot"  is more hateful in my option then the word fags. Since I think when you aim at an individual it become more personal and become more meaningful to the recipient. BTW dada I did not call a group of gay fags I called a hockey team. clearly two different things.

DDay fags is just as bad.  The argument still stands.  Also, your opinion honestly doesn't matter in this conversation.  What matters are the opinions of the people you're hurting with your speech.  You do know you're actually HURTING people by saying this, don't you?  It doesn't matter if you're talking about gay people or not, you're hurting them either way.  You aren't the kind of guy who would knowingly hurt people I don't think, which is why I think you just need to apologize and not hurt anyone anymore.


If you need to call someone something, call them jerks.  Call them losers.  Call them buttholes.  You can do that without hurting people that did nothing wrong.

DDay fags is just as bad.  The argument still stands.  Also, your opinion honestly doesn't matter in this conversation.  What matters are the opinions of the people you're hurting with your speech.  You do know you're actually HURTING people by saying this, don't you?  It doesn't matter if you're talking about gay people or not, you're hurting them either way.  You aren't the kind of guy who would knowingly hurt people I don't think, which is why I think you just need to apologize and not hurt anyone anymore.

Opinions do matter but your right I'm sorry Pittsburgh fans :P

Edit: and team members.

i'm glad you're telling dday off for this but at the same time of course it's not at the top of your list of things to get upset about because it doesn't affect you personally at all.

no, because the top of my list entails real TERRIBLE people who are actually bigots. Those take priority and if I sat here preaching to DDay who isn't the sharpest screwdriver why he shouldn't say the word fag I am pretty much wasting my time and sounding like a pessemistic asswipe. Which is why alot of people that do that shit (harp on miniscule ignorant shit like that) end up getting ignored in the long run.