There are ways to change this. It's going to be slow and gradual, but there's a good starting point: Occupy Wall Street. It should turn to neighborhood and labor organizing now. The act of just protesting has pretty much run its course for them. They should realize that people are overwhelmingly on their side, and that given the right degree of organization they can start to seriously make changes. There's a well-documented inverse correlation between labor organization and the level of income of the so-called 1% (which isn't an exact number but it's basically the right visual). That's also why so much effort was put in effectively dismantling labor unions, and why they're so demonized today.

Last year I fronted a Social Justice group at my college of fairly respectable size - we marched at G20, did a lot of local activism work in the community protesting the lockouts of local steel workers and what not, stuff like that. We worked with other local sustainability groups and stuff like that.

As much as their efforts did inspire me in many ways, and definitely changed the way I view these matters, it also really made one thing clear to me: As much as these groups do want legitimate change, they are VERY us vs them. If you are not supportive of their efforts down to the last letter, they are not terribly interested in your support. They SAY they are, but in practice they are not. The ISSUE here is that people in our society are not black and white like this, they're typically fairly grey. They want change, but they want changes that they can interact with at their convenience. That's large in part due to our acculturation, but it goes deeper. If it cuts into something they care about (sports, TV, hell even just their leisure time) they are almost guaranteed unwilling to make the effort. PARTICULARLY because most leftist groups are pretty doom and gloom, they love using images of the evil man, love celebrating anything vaguely anarchistic, and are often so unrelenting in their beliefs that it makes it difficult for people to want to work with them. Instead of either speaking in language that alienates people and loses joe citizen, OR for that matter instead of speaking in overtly positive and lovey dovey terms (which alienates a whole different section of the population) where we want to convince a society that has been rooted in preservation of the self, not the whole, that it DOES want to care for its fellow man irregardless of the conditions that have been in place for centuries negating this. We need to be speaking to people with broader strokes, being a little more honest with the facts of the situation as opposed to yeah, just trying to convince people we're either all going to die in a year or that you should want to help your brothers because it's the right thing to do because humanity's the best (which even if it IS, does not compute with the way we actually live, at least not here in North America).

For those reasons and more, I eventually became disillusioned with their efforts. They're not really connecting with a percentage of the population whose ACTUAL opinions should be considered valid and necessary for making long-standing change, and instead wish to, knowingly or not, impose a different sort of ideological hierarchy based around beliefs that half the people they wish to help simply don't believe in. Capitalism is massively flawed and short-sighted, but flawed or not its roots are long-standing and one cannot simply flip a switch and everything starts over, social change cannot come without great upheaval and I don't think as a society we're quite WILLING to make the sacrifices that would come with. Hell, I'm not so sure I even am and I've been involved with this shit. If push comes to shove, that's likely to change, but it hasn't for enough yet. The question is how much will it take at the end of the day, and how many concessions will we be willing to make in the name of fear. And for that matter, is there ANY possible way of re-structuring a society so social elitism doesn't rise to the top again? That almost sounds impossible to me, we virtually left egalitarianism behind when we settled down thousands of years ago.

Sorry if this sounds rambly, I find it hard to keep my posts together on this little box (though I just realized that apparently it's because I am using the quick reply!)

Man that post barely makes sense, I hope nobody rips me apart too bad

Edit: This isn't even the only forum I'm engaged in a debate I really have no basis to be a real part of right now, I'm making an ass of myself left right and center tonight!

No I really liked that post and it summed up pretty much how I feel about those kinds of grassroots movements. They're fucking placid and stale.

Anyone who thinks the Occupy protests have "no real direction" (or any of its variations, such as that they don't have a unified message or any policy proposals) hasn't been paying attention.

You are right I have not been paying attention very much because I've been pretty jaded about where we're going the past couple years. But my point still stands. It doesn't matter if they have proposals if they aren't willing to go to extremes in order to have them heard.

You're right Dada, change IS a slow, gradual beast. That's one thing working with that group definitely taught me, and despite several debates on the matter with a far more knowing teacher, he was able to demonstrate that he was right on that every single time. Perhaps that's the largest issue of them all - us younger generations have become so accustomed to rapid change, we anticipate it in all things - even the foundations of society. How does one shift that perception to understand that there's more to social progression than good intention and speedy will? Does it even matter? These next few decades are going to be very telling!

But don't worry about this stuff until tomorrow go to sleep!

Anyone who thinks the Occupy protests have "no real direction" (or any of its variations, such as that they don't have a unified message or any policy proposals) hasn't been paying attention.

idk man, I went to the camp in my city several times and didn't see any major cohesive movements, tho granted I never made my way down into the pit (they were occupying an awful City Beautiful plaza that no pedestrian could possibly enjoy, complete with gross sunken plazas coated in granite-patterned concrete. but not because it was an excellent statement about the leaders abusing their power and doing a disservice to the people, but because it was conveniently next to the city hall (what) and it was the only place near there they were allowed to camp). one memorable guy who looked like he popped straight out of the grime-chic section of Urban Outfitters would dance in the cross-walks during a red light, waving a sign that read "create jobs and restore our crumbling economy"

there WERE some coherent trends of course, but I don't think "lacking direction" is an incorrect description of the protests at all. there's been too much white noise, and afaict most everyday people still have no clue what they're protesting

bernie sanders is the only openly socialist american politician and the only one that doesn't deserve an icepick to the brainstem. vote for him if you're gonna bother voting.

ya I saw him. I guess it's him or nothing

its all complete shit, don't vote for anyone, burn it all to the fucking ground(not literally)

Anyone who thinks the Occupy protests have "no real direction" (or any of its variations, such as that they don't have a unified message or any policy proposals) hasn't been paying attention.

actually there's a strong pull within occupy to resist making demands/policy proposals and I agree with it.
keep up the tension, demand nothing, shut down everything

Capitalism is massively flawed and short-sighted, but flawed or not its roots are long-standing and one cannot simply flip a switch and everything starts over, social change cannot come without great upheaval and I don't think as a society we're quite WILLING to make the sacrifices that would come with.

when that social upheaval comes, as it has in the past, it won't be because people willingly decide to make sacrifices. It'll be because our situation has become unbearable and people are thrust onto the stage of history and forced to act. the initial tremors are appearing over the place right now: The arab spring and what set it off cannot be seperated from the fact that there's nearly 50% unemployment for young people that's why that dude set himself on fire. The same is true in Greece, same with Spain, there's literally no future for young people everywhere. "Occupy" in the US has its roots in the same problem and while it will(in my opinion) ultimately be transitory it is an initial expression of this and the shape of things to come... hopefully shedding all the goofy baggage of american leftism in the process.

here everyone read this
and this

http://youtu.be/8Rv0Z5SNrF4

ron paul people are the most annoying dumb motherfuckers on the planet and I usually just walk away or quickly change the subject when anyone brings up ron paul in conversation because it's excruciating to even hear

The only problem with that dude is that the american public would never openly accept neo-communism or any socialist rule unless it just happened and they didn't realize that shit.

And honestly dada's romanticized hope for some kind of cohiesive movement would take fucking decades if it could ever even happen. Its already getting too late for that to even be an option anymore. I think you'd be more likely to see society break down into some great depression shit with a strong armed government rule over whats left of the starving populace before that shit would ever happen. In my opinion the only way that would work would be for a massive violent upheaval and for somebody to slip in and start doing that shit without people realizing what it actually was.
 
Because, hating communism is ingrained in our history and political culture. You'd have too many people unwilling to even consider it, starving or not they'd still want their capitalist "freedom".

Protesting and occupying are just means to an end, and what you should be concerned about is the end rather than the means. There's no reason to believe these protests can become big enough to actually turn into a revolution. You actually mention that yourself. This is probably just transitory. You can either piously sit it out in anticipation of something else, or you can do something.

a means to what end though? and what exactly do you mean by "do something"?
I think it's important to disabuse people of illusions of reformism as to inoculate against the plague of 'social democracy'(the historic expression of the defeat/capitulation of the workers movement) so 'no demands' makes sense to that end. There are real limitations to what 'occupy' can really do, mostly because it is generally a shitty leftist circus that's capable of drawing a crowd but not much else. I'm really skeptical when I hear people saying "ok now it's time for occupy to start organizing neighborhoods and workplaces" because it just seems like the kind of boilerplate one-size-fits-all response to the emergence of a mass-movement and there's really not much of a basis for it to procede along those lines. At least not here locally and I doubt it's much different elsewhere given accounts I've heard from folks I'm in contact with in places like the bay area and nyc.

The only problem with that dude is that the american public would never openly accept neo-communism or any socialist rule unless it just happened and they didn't realize that shit.

And honestly dada's romanticized hope for some kind of cohiesive movement would take fucking decades if it could ever even happen. Its already getting too late for that to even be an option anymore. I think you'd be more likely to see society break down into some great depression shit with a strong armed government rule over whats left of the starving populace before that shit would ever happen. In my opinion the only way that would work would be for a massive violent upheaval and for somebody to slip in and start doing that shit without people realizing what it actually was.
 
Because, hating communism is ingrained in our history and political culture. You'd have too many people unwilling to even consider it, starving or not they'd still want their capitalist "freedom".

call it communism or not, i think that when it emerges it won't really be a question of "lets do communism", it'll be a situation similar to what you imagine: everything crumbling/falling apart and people responding(hopefully) in accordance with their interests... i mean if you look at things like the paris commune and later initial formations of workers councils/soviets in russia and europe these were less "conscious" efforts to fulfill a utopian scheme but people's practical responses to horrible systemic failure going on around them

Though a shitty outcome is probably the more likely scenario, the degree that "organizers" or activists can influence wether or not people act in their interests when(or if) the time comes is debatable.

i don't have anything to contribute to any kind of political discussion anymore and i've done a good job divorcing myself from the intense frustrations i used to feel on the subject. this is probably in the same vein of dismissive anti-intellectualism i used to preach loudly against back in the day, but i just stopped being able to muster up much enthusiasm about it anymore. i'm aware of the fact that i'm pretty powerless, and i'll leave it to someone with less of a fear of driving themselves insane to start that revolution and point me in the direction of the nearest black market firearm dealer.

i do, however, have a nice heart-warming anecdote: my dad was becoming a pretty big ron paul supporter back around the time of the last election. he was falling for a lot of the bullshit and starting to talk rather earnestly about how good of a candidate he was. i think the ultimatum i delivered was something to the extent of lighting something pertinent in the house on fire if he went through with his threat of putting a ron paul sign on the front lawn.

i remember back then we all were excitedly on our FUCK RON PAUL kick and steel went out of his way to make some really nice collection of links to all the bits of online evidence proving that ron paul is a deeply untrustworthy person. because i'm not an avid arsonist, and i couldn't stand the thought of someone in my gene pool having the capacity to make such a fatal error, i linked my dad to steel's nice ron paul exposé, no doubt with some pithy sentence attached that i spent half an hour looking at before sending.

and it worked. that shit never works. he didn't admit it right away, but now whenever my dad sees ron paul on television, or his name comes up in conversation, he goes just a little far out of his way to make a comment on how ill he is. i don't really think he's just saying this to please me, either, although i think his enthusiasm on the subject is partially for my benefit. my dad doesn't bullshit like that, and his tune has entirely changed since he last suggested that president ron paul had a nice ring to it.

i don't really know if this proves anything, but i think when you really dig deeper into who ron paul is and where he came from, you have a guy who is indisputably broken and whose opinion should not carry even the slightest ounce of weight for anyway. most paul supporters don't really know much of anything about him outside of his elegant use of buzzwords and what misinformation they've been able to glean from his staggeringly effective pr department. i'm pretty convinced most people aren't goddamn stupid enough to really believe this shit is a good idea if they sat there thinking about it and doing some homework on the matter.

idk, a nice steel story i guess. i miss that dude.

So do I, he was an awesome dude, could be an ass at times (but then so could any body) but still awesome.

First a question, some one mentioned that reagan abolished the working class, how do you abolish a group of people? ban them from existance? explain that one to me, is it a refrence i just don't get?

I've known society was breaking down and whats sad is that most people don't know it, oh sure you have groups of people trying to do somthing like with the occupy wall street but unless they form as a cohesive whole there not gonna acheive shit. I hate politicians, I voted Liberal democrates here in the uk becuase I bought into the whole "we won't increase University fees" and yet when that asshole nick clegg got voted in as co-PM alongside conservatives he didn't do jack shit for students, the only reason he even got in was becuase of suppourt from students, way to give us the finger.

I honestly worry for the future, lol maybe this is what the mayans were predicting, and we all thought it would be a natural disaster.  But seriously Society is already crumbling, things like the eurozone are just VERY early signs of a bigger thing at least that's what I belive, I mean I predicted the credit crunch and no I didn't tell any one becuase I thought no one would belive me, but those banks (northen rock) going under were just the warning signs.