Topic: How do you feel now that Obamacare was ruled constitutional? (Read 9955 times)

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What do you mean by left though, "the left" or the left?
the left: champions of the welfare state, social democracy, populist national liberation movements, state-socialism, the unions, etc... all those who swoop in times of crisis and revolution offering solutions, leadership, and stasis amid the "chaos". They're a  pillar of capital whose function historically is to make whatever structural adjustments necessary to get people back to work. They need to be opposed by those who see the need for immediate revolution when the time comes(and it's coming, given the rising popularity of the parliamentary left in the collapsing Eurozone)
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I'd recommend Freefall: America, Free Markets, and the Sinking of the World Economy by Joseph Stiglitz it covers quite a bit of what got us into our current mess and is a pretty interesting read. His latest book The Price of Inequality: How Today's Divided Society Endangers Our Future is also a decent look at some of what we (Americans anyways) are going to be facing in the future.
Thanks, I've added them to my ebay wishlist, which means I'll probably get around to reading them in not very soon :(
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In the anarchist society in Spain in the '30s, people traded vouchers counting for one hour of labor.


Yeah, well, there are problems with that. It's only ok as long as only type of labor is performed. Also 1 hour doing brain surgery is hardly equivalent to 1 hour making shit pies. I'll come back later to address other issues as I'm kinda busy right now.
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I'll trade you 10 hours digging a hole and filling it back for 10 hours performing sexual favors
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that explains a lot, he's always been an enormous fucking moron.
dom is literally the dutch word for dumb
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lol, if libtard is dom it is not dom being serious. dom is One Of Us (by us i mean shady cabal of twitter leftists)
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lol, if libtard is dom it is not dom being serious. dom is One Of Us (by us i mean shady cabal of twitter leftists)

dorks
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idk I figured it'd either be right on the money or an insult so I clicked the post button
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I prefer 'TEAR IT ALL DOWN' dom to 'WORKINS FOR THE MAN' dom :(
Hey hey hey
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I've read very little about economics, can you recommend me a good book to get started? I'm particularly interested in something that will help me understand the type of transactions that carry a systemic risk, and that can explain why there was such an absurdly large housing market bubble and why nobody appeared to have noticed it (I guess some people did, and maybe the rest of the market decided to just brace for the deluge?)

Actually I also have Marx's Capital around here somewhere, maybe I should read that one first.

There's Sraffa's book Production of Commodities by Means of Commodities of course, but a lot of the interesting stuff is found in articles/papers in the literature. In particular I like Garegnani's 'Heterogeneous Capital, the Production Function and the Theory of Distribution' for a criticism of economic concepts like the production function and demand/supply. For a treatment of the financial crisis specifically you can read A Critical Approach to the Analysis of the Evolution of Financial Regulation Before and After the Crisis, which looks at how changes in regulation lead to increasing systemic risk.

I should point out though that I learned mainstream economics in university before getting interested in alternative economic thought, and without the background knowledge anything you read will be a hard slog.
why do i keep coming back here
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I should point out though that I learned mainstream economics in university before getting interested in alternative economic thought, and without the background knowledge anything you read will be a hard slog.
Thanks for the suggestions, I'll see if I can wrestle my way through them.
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Andrew Kliman's latest book on the crisis, The Failure of Capitalist Production, is a pretty good one that pretty much makes convincing argument supporting that The Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall holds using pretty legit empirical data. I'm not the biggest fan of Marxist-Humanists, but he does the best job demolishing Keynesianism since Mattick Sr.
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Andrew Kliman's latest book on the crisis, The Failure of Capitalist Production, is a pretty good one that pretty much makes convincing argument supporting that The Tendency for the Rate of Profit to Fall holds using pretty legit empirical data. I'm not the biggest fan of Marxist-Humanists, but he does the best job demolishing Keynesianism since Mattick Sr.


Doesn't really take that much of an effort to demolish keynes, lol


Anyway, I'm back. I'll now address some issues our forum comrades have raised in a lengthy but informative post.
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"From each according to his ability, to each according to his need."

Actually, they're not slogans. It's much worse than that. They're actual, literal viewpoints. And that one happens to be pretty popular with people when they don't know the source.


That is a marxist slogan and they're slogans.


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This is just another illogical argument. Of course not everybody is "equal". There are lots of ways you can measure differences between people, and you could even ascribe value to them. But that doesn't matter. You mentioned Tesla and Buffett and Gates, supposedly, as examples of why society should not give the same rewards to everybody. And now you mention racists: as another example? Do you believe racists should be paid less for the same work? Because that's what it comes down to for Gates: he gets paid more, far more, supposedly because he's not equal to the rest, he's far better. The amount of effort he puts in is disproportionate to the rewards he reaps.


Are you equal to a racist? If someone kidnapped you, and the police called your mom and said "Hey, we couldn't locate Dada but here's an equal that will serve the same purpose" and they come in with a morbidly obese woman of colour (you're equals, remember that), what do you think would be your mom's reaction? Would she be OK, since you're all equals?


The amount of effort he puts in is disproportionate to the rewards he reaps, but think about it. He has a skill that is so rare and that has the potential to alter permanently the lives that it makes no sense that it should have the same value as that of someone who knows nothing but how to tighten screws. He also takes much bigger risks. A bad decision by Mr. Gates could cost the comfortable lives of thousands and it did sometimes. So he earned all of his billions, and it's up to him alone to decide how to spend them (on charity), not you, not Obama, not anyone else.




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What I'm proposing is simple. Get rid of inequality on the basis of capital. Remember the juxtaposition of the single mother working three jobs to support her family and the financial corporation CEO? It should be obvious who's the hardest worker and who gets paid the most. That's unjust. It's a very simple position.


Again. Who has the rarer skill set? Who has to make the riskier decisions?


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Based on this explanation, I guess you asked me to compare them to your caricature of a leftist leader. Did you expect me to have the exact same image and description of the undefined term "leftist leader" as you?
Go back to the quote at the top and make note of the "from each according to his ability" part.


That's not a caricature, IT'S WHAT ALL OF THEM ARE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Equality is and always has been nothing but a ruse. Behind every nice-sounding cry for equality there is the intention of putting in power one or another elite.

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Another thing to take note of is the fact that the prime characteristic of socialism is worker control over the means of production. If that's the case, there's nobody to "put Tesla in a factory". That has absolutely nothing to do with socialism.


That's would be like having cooperatives everywhere and people already are free to do that but they mostly don't. It actually works but it's much easier to have someone have all the good ideas and everyone else tighten the screws. Don't idealize "the worker".


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What you attempted to do is exactly what you tried with Buffett and Gates: paint a self-serving picture by failing to make an honest analysis. Yes, there are left-wing world leaders who enjoy cushy lifestyles. There are also right-wing world leaders who enjoy cushy lifestyles. In fact, although I haven't made a head count, I'm pretty sure the overwhelming majority of world leaders actually have nothing whatsoever to do with socialism, or anarchism, or the communist creed at the top of my post, and are actually extremely beholden to the extreme right-wing state-capitalist system.


Yeah, do you know why none of them has anything to do with socialism? Because all it is good at is filling mass graves, that's why. Some people will ignore that, so they'll promise equality, freedom from oppression and whatever to gain approval from the masses, but promises are just promises. Right-wing leaders will make entirely different appeals, but they're all after the same thing. The most successful nations are those that employed a market economy, that didn't try to impose barriers on entrepreneurship, that didn't have states that tried to control economy. Compare Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and South Korea to China, North Korea, Cuba and other communist shitholes. By the way Hong Kong is probably a thousand times more capitalistic than US and has high quality free health care (and also high quality private healthcare). And it works. They have so much cash lying around from not trying to have a huge government that attempts to control and regulate everything they can just make it work if they want to.


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You have to be more precise and tone down the rhetoric because I'm having a hard time following you too for most part.


Well you too will have to stop babbling communist propaganda material because I'm having a hard time trying to take you seriously
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You sound like someone fresh out of Economics 101 and brimming with rage at the government and all those union fatcats for tampering with the free market and wages.

The Sraffians dismantled the whole concept of demand and supply forces determining relative prices in the long run in the capital debates of the 60s, but for some reason the right-wing marginalist economists basically ignored all that inconvenient stuff and pushed their theory which is why when you open up an economics textbook the first thing you will see is demand and supply curves drawn up as if they are scientific laws of gravity.


This one will take some reading but Sraffa's pricing theory is flawed as well (ignores the subjective aspect of value determination)
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I thought William F. Buckley was dead.
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I've read very little about economics, can you recommend me a good book to get started? I'm particularly interested in something that will help me understand the type of transactions that carry a systemic risk, and that can explain why there was such an absurdly large housing market bubble and why nobody appeared to have noticed it (I guess some people did, and maybe the rest of the market decided to just brace for the deluge?)

Actually I also have Marx's Capital around here somewhere, maybe I should read that one first.


That's complete junk, by the way
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This is unfortunately a common trope when capitalists discuss socialism. Namely, they see the concepts of socialism and totalitarianism as inseparably linked (possibly unintentionally, because most of them probably don't understand a thing about this) because when they think of socialism, they think of the Soviet Union under Stalin. Of course, once you start doing some basic research, you immediately throw away that concept because it's nonsensical.


Because they ARE inseparably linked. In a socialist utopia, what happens if someone decides to produce more than is necessary to maintain a stable population level? What happens if someone decides to maintain private property? Do they have to git out? Because people will want things. People will try to improve their lives. Unless you're talking about a completely idealized human being that is more akin to a drone bee than to a person who has a personality, who has desires and so on. In a capitalist society you're free to be socialist, but that's with your own time and effort. Unless there is a STATE that has a monopoly over legitimate violence that can come in your little socialist village and say "Hey, that's wrong, do not be a collectivist cripple or we'll have to open fire". That happens to dissenters in 'socialist' societies (blah blah blah, intermediate stage where the state decides everything, this is totally a good idea guys, I promise we'll evolve to true communism someday! no, I'm not lying!). They're sent to gulags, are shot for being reactionaries or have to sail to Miami.


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It's not about people in the first place, but about the system. Capitalism is a guaranteed route to sharp inequality. By extension, it's also responsible for a lot of other evils, such as colonialism and imperialism. Racism is strongly exacerbated through class warfare and politics.


Colonialism and imperialism both happened because there were states deciding they were good ideas. Also... WAS THERE CAPITALISM DURING THE ROMAN ERA? Did holodomor happen because of CAPITALISM? (btw: no, it happened because a few people were against forced collectivism/failed to meet production quotas [to ][/to], so mr. stalin or some other commie decided they didn't deserve their food rations). The greatest leaps in quality of life in human history were due to people accumulating capital and investing it on new methods of productions, not due to someone's good intentions, not due to someone claiming equality, not due to people maintaining paleolithic-compatible lifestyles. Don't be naive. Even if there is "inequality" like you say, it is only because of capitalism that now you have people you can steal money from and give it to people who are unable to contribute anything to your marvelous society under the ruse of equality.


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Anyone who consciously and, fully knowing these things, would argue that it's not just an ugly truth, but an ideal to uphold, is pretty close to any definition of evil I can come up with. Just like someone who would claim that Naziism is an ideal to uphold. Most people really just don't know a thing about any of this and certainly don't consciously agree with it, of course. Personally I prefer to think that not people, but their actions, are evil, and that people's values can be simply described by whether or not they support things like freedom of choice, equality, inherent rights, et cetera. Some people are undoubtedly evil, but if that's where the analysis ends, it's not good enough.

Anyone who thinks he knows better than I what to do of my efforts and actually doesn't is just a thief, a charlatan or probably a communist (which is both a thief and a charlatan). Unless he actually does, then I'd voluntarily accept his advice.

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But ultimately, the people are dispensable. If an apologist for elite policy decisions, like US foreign interventionism, dies in a car accident, you can get another guy to take his place no problem. There will always be stooges willing to sell out humanity. Those will never be in short supply, so I don't worry about that too much. It's about the system.


If people kept killing them (which they realistically can but chose not to), eventually only the ones who actually were good at managing a society would survive, but that's not going to happen soon. The welfare states, the redistribution policies, the state-mandated wars, the economic interventions will have to bring about the complete catastrophes they're bound to in order for anything to change.
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That is a marxist slogan and they're slogans.
That is no excuse for not replying with a substantive argument.

Are you equal to a racist? If someone kidnapped you, and the police called your mom and said "Hey, we couldn't locate Dada but here's an equal that will serve the same purpose" and they come in with a morbidly obese woman of colour (you're equals, remember that), what do you think would be your mom's reaction? Would she be OK, since you're all equals?
To be equal to someone doesn't mean to be identical. You're also the only one who doesn't seem to get what I mean by equality—maybe because you'd rather not be forced to make a substantive reply.

The amount of effort he puts in is disproportionate to the rewards he reaps, but think about it. He has a skill that is so rare and that has the potential to alter permanently the lives that it makes no sense that it should have the same value as that of someone who knows nothing but how to tighten screws. He also takes much bigger risks. A bad decision by Mr. Gates could cost the comfortable lives of thousands and it did sometimes. So he earned all of his billions, and it's up to him alone to decide how to spend them (on charity), not you, not Obama, not anyone else.

Again. Who has the rarer skill set? Who has to make the riskier decisions?
I don't contest the fact that people like Bill Gates have amazing and rare abilities. What I contest is the idea that this gives him the right to have absolutely outrageous amounts of money.

Let us put aside the idea of Marx's "from each according to his ability, to each according to his need" for one minute. Let's go back to the juxtaposition that I put forth before, between the single mom working three jobs and the financial company CEO. According to the capitalist society, he is literally millions of times more useful than she is. She's struggling just to survive. He has more money than he even knows what to do with. Do you think that's just? What about a mine worker who has to work himself to a sweat every day and will probably die at 60 due to health complications, do you think that's a proportionate comparison? What about the poor Indian worker whose daily calorie intake has tanked since the capitalist market reforms 25 years ago?

Here's what all of this comes down to: even if you believe that the CEO has a right to a greater degree of luxury, is millions of times justified? Is it justified for one person to have a fully staffed personal jet while other people are malnourished?

Still, what's also going on here is a rather incredible romanticization of rich people. It's a common trope that people employ in defense of the rich elite: assert that they deserve it because they're such incredible superhumans. Well, when you commit yourself to a serious examination of reality instead of telling fairy tales, you'll find that things are a lot more nuanced. The financial industry is a good example. It's very daring to try and paint these people as deserving of their ungodly wealth when you consider the fact they brought the complete world economy to its knees recently thanks to conduct that they knew was systemically damaging. They did it because it benefited them.

There are many other reasons for why it's savage and inhumane to permit such a degree of elitism to exist. It's not so much different from the court of Versailles, the only real difference being that, thanks to propaganda, completely regular people like yourself are finding themselves making excuses for this continuous theft to go on.

That's not a caricature, IT'S WHAT ALL OF THEM ARE, WITHOUT EXCEPTION. Equality is and always has been nothing but a ruse. Behind every nice-sounding cry for equality there is the intention of putting in power one or another elite.
I have to say, you're not serious. Does Jill Stein conform to your caricature of "the leftist leader"? What about Noam Chomsky or Peter Kropotkin or Anton Pannekoek or Rosa Luxemburg? What about the fact Chomsky even explicitly said he doesn't like the word "leader" because that implies there is one person who sets the agenda for others to follow, and that conflicts with the most basic tenets of both socialism and anarchism. You're still equating left-wing philosophy with totalitarianism—that's not the attitude of someone who's interested in a serious, fact-based discussion.

That's would be like having cooperatives everywhere and people already are free to do that but they mostly don't.
As I said before, people don't really have much of a choice. They're stuck in the system. Besides that, the initiatives that do get started end up being crushed. A good example is Vietnam, which was completely destroyed by the US (they're still dying from chemical warfare) because it tried to break away from the pack. There are many others.

This is inherently also similar to the "vote with your money" argument. It's simply not a workable solution, which is why it's proposed by people who don't want people to have a solution.

Yeah, do you know why none of them has anything to do with socialism? Because all it is good at is filling mass graves, that's why.
This is an incredibly myopic thing to say, considering that the US is responsible for literally millions of deaths throughout the entire world. As I argued before, capitalism is a process that leads to massive concentrations of private, unaccountable power. Tyranny is a natural end result. The anarchist philosophy specifically dismantles concentrations of power. As I said before, what happened in the Soviet Union had very little to do with socialism because its primary tenet—worker control over the means of production—was dismantled right at the start, and the country ultimately went on to become a totalitarian state. Equating that with socialism simply means you don't know what socialism is.

Well you too will have to stop babbling communist propaganda material because I'm having a hard time trying to take you seriously
Again, these are all just poor excuses to not have to make substantive arguments.
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Compare Taiwan, Hong Kong, Singapore and South Korea to China, North Korea, Cuba and other communist shitholes. By the way Hong Kong is probably a thousand times more capitalistic than US and has high quality free health care (and also high quality private healthcare). And it works. They have so much cash lying around from not trying to have a huge government that attempts to control and regulate everything they can just make it work if they want to.
Have you ever considered moving to Ethiopia? I hear they employ 100% laissez-faire capitalism and have no regulations, so it must be a true utopia.

ps: none of the countries you mentioned are communist.