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superflat

#1 March 12, 2013, 11:46:55 pm

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This is in relation to the 4p coop / vs dungeony game I'm working on... I'm thinking immediately of Dungeon Master, Demon's Souls and possibly Spy vs Spy as there is a mutiplayer element, despite it not fitting the dungeon bit.

Can you think of any games that have done it well, preferably quite mean ones, what kind of mechanics worked (I love a good pressure plate + arrow because it gives just enough warning), what could work in mutiplayer, tripping devices and so on (in a top-down multi-level dungeon with pits down - pits will no doubt get used a lot...?)

Any thoughts or game suggestions to check out would be most appreciated!

Cheers.

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Biggles

#2 March 13, 2013, 01:08:19 am

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it's always difficult to be punish / randomly injure players without having first established something they hold particularly dear. the things i can identify as being immediate to the game are their progress through the dungeon, and their ability to cooperate with one another. people often get mad at the former, and it's pretty well-explored. for the latter, you could put players into a kind of unknown solitary space where they can't locate or communicate with the others until they manage to link up again. only possible with particular kinds of co-op, mind you. could also give them diseases that cripple them in some way and are transferred if they get too close to another player, or even a sticky bomb that can be passed like a hot potato and only penalises the player left with it. aside from that, you're basically left messing with their values and expectations. fake-outs and fake-rewards are a standard method of doing this. you can also build wider traps that cause players to realise that their values and goals are dysfunctional, or use conventions about the configuration of space against the player. idk if this is all obvious though. i regularly need to remind myself of obvious things.

antichamber (which i haven't played because it's windows only) seems like it might be a decent example of using player's expectations from outside the game against them.
CYBERQUEEN by Porpentine is kind of sadistic in the sense that is takes a sledgehammer to any expectations of heroism, power-fantasy, or 'winning' at all. perhaps to self-ness. that game absolutely scares the fuck out of me though. just thinking about it. not an experience i will easily forget. it's an immensely strong game, but i'm totally unsure about recommending it to people on account of all the torture. taking it into account, you kind of have to ask yourself what you really mean by sadistic traps.

Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 01:09:19 am by Biggles

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mkkmypet

#3 March 13, 2013, 10:49:01 am

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maybe this is only coming to mind because i've been playing a lot of them recently, but some Zelda games have had fairly sadistic dungeons.
in the 2D ones, especially, there were a lot of pits that made you fall down to lower levels. in games with the Lens of Truth, there were similar tricks, but where you'd fall through what appears to be a normal floor, and that sort of thing would prompt you in the future to nervously check all areas with the Lens before venturing forward. making the player anxious and obsessive-compulsive like that is pretty mean.
and in Ocarina of Time (and others i think?) there were these hands that come down from the ceiling and grabbed you, taking you back to the beginning of the dungeon. those were good because they offered just enough warning before coming down, via seeing a shadow over your character and hearing a subtle noise. they were fairly easy to dodge and kill after having had a few encounters, but i was definitely annoyed and angry at myself the first few times where i got nabbed. :P

another sadistic game mechanic that comes to mind is stuff that occurs outside the playable game itself-- for example, being forced to listen to Mr. Resetti's long rants in Animal Crossing games when you change the console clock or reset the game. hehe. and another example would be the game Eternal Darkness: Sanity's Requiem. in that game, the player character is going insane and you get to witness manifestations of that, such as seeing the walls dripping with blood. the really torturous thing that could happen in that game was that in certain conditions, it would make it appear like your save files all got deleted, when they actually still existed. it would cause you to freak out a bit, and it would kind of blur the lines between the player and the character, which is cool. the idea of using gaslighting within game design is one i'm intrigued by.

i hope these examples are the kind of thing you're looking for~

semper games.

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dada

#4 March 13, 2013, 11:00:27 am

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every goddang dungeon in FF2 (the NES game, not FF2/FF4 for SNES) had like a ton of doors leading to dead ends which meant more random encounters. every dead end looked exactly the same, just a tiny little empty room. it's an extremely simple trick but it worked on my nerves pretty well.

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superflat

#5 March 13, 2013, 01:33:45 pm

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Thanks for all the brilliant foods for thought. Some really interesting stuff to take a look at there. I guess by sadistic in the context of this game I mean elaborate, and just on the edge of mean / fair - not so much violent or about torture. The game is quite light hearted but mean spirited, but possibly a little lonely and scary like Dungeon Master? But also it will be bending reality a lot...

Biggles, that's some really thought-provoking stuff there. It probably is good to think about these things equally psychologically and metaphorically as mechanically.

mkkmypet, that reminded me there's a lot of stuff to mine in Zeldas that I'd forgotten about. That hand was great... Wonder if that could work in multiplayer? I like that save-fuckery stuff in MGS / Nier a lot so maybe I should check out Eternal Darkness?

I like that idea a lot dada - dead ends are a great thing that people often forget to put in stuff nowadays.

Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 01:35:43 pm by superflat

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bonzi_buddy

#6 March 13, 2013, 07:53:39 pm

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Quote from: bextissueri link=topic=FIX_TOPIC_ID.msgFIX_POST_ID#msgFIX_POST_ID date=1363204097

Нужен ли прогон xrumer? Огромное ссылок количество оказывает благоприятное воздействие на увеличение PR! Заказать прогон по трастовым сайтам можно если нужнен заработок в интернете.

sorry but quoting this before destruction, prob the best thing to happen to this topic *everybody looks hella angry, we got a fine convo goi-* nope. doing you a favour, you'll thank me eventually *everybody beats the shit outta bonzi*

Last Edit: March 29, 2013, 08:35:15 pm by dada

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esiann

#7 March 13, 2013, 09:46:00 pm

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corridor with grating as the floor material, portals above & below activated by proximity I guess, so you get pelted by stones for all eternity unless you backtrack/have a cumbersome shield
that arrow/pressure plate thing, but the arrow comes out a couple beats after you step on the plate, so you can try to time it to hit someone following you
poison gas just dropping from the ceiling is pretty annoying (Crawl); could be improved by making it spew gas in a set pattern & putting the area of highest potency just a couple squares away from the trigger tile
something like a player-activated spike trap which is fairly easily recognized; I think making purposefully attractive spots to camp & play at Lord of the Dungeon from, but which are themselves open to attack from a couple directions & limit line of sight, would make things interesting
laser eyes in stonework, ability to duck (in a top-down?? hm)

Last Edit: March 13, 2013, 10:17:25 pm by esiann

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Biggles

#8 March 14, 2013, 08:40:23 am

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esiann's arrow/plate trap variation got me thinking about arrow/plate traps as a form. here are some of the ones i thought of:

plate goes off the second, third, or fourth time someone stands on it. can be used to limit the number of players that pass a particular point.
sometimes plates that look like they might go off don't.
standing on the plate shoots an arrow somewhere else. pref a possible teammate location.
players must stand on four plates to open a door. one player must stand on a plate with a big red dot. that player is shot.
do the above a couple of times. then make an identical door where one of the players not standing on the big red dot is shot.
obvious plate that clicks but doesn't go off followed immediately (in the direction players are likely walking) by non-obvious plate that does.
same as above but the one that goes off is on the tile you'd step on to walk around the plate.
you can (normally) put a rock on the plate to set the trap off early, but (in this variation) the arrow shoots at the place you'd likely place/throw the rock from.
delayed arrow trap with a non-delayed arrow trap right next to it (where you'd probably step off).
delayed arrow trap that shoots the arrow to where you'd probably walk to.
arrow trap that randomly chooses from or cycles between some of the above.

you can also see the plate and the arrow as abstract place holders for the trigger and the punishment. common triggers being things like trying to open a door, opening a chest, trying to climb a ladder, getting too close to something, pressing a switch or button. lots of punishments / side effects mentioned in this thread already that could easily replace the arrow. fire or hallucinogenic gas or killing the pc's pet changes the effect of the arrow/plate forms listed quite a bit. not that i think that arrow/plate forms a complete basis for all traps. just that they characterise (if viewed in this way) a particular kind.

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dada

#9 March 17, 2013, 10:29:20 am

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Quote from: superflat on March 13, 2013, 01:33:45 pm

I like that idea a lot dada - dead ends are a great thing that people often forget to put in stuff nowadays.

It was particularly jarring in that game because of the general difficulty level, plus no save points whatsoever and every dungeon is like 15 floors deep to begin with.

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esiann

#10 March 17, 2013, 06:47:26 pm

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Oh yeah, one of the things I find more appealing/aggravating about Daggerfall is the needlessly labyrinthine dungeon generation. Everything twists around and sprawls so much that it takes a very long time to build a solid mental map, & the actual map just adds another level of confusion. How wide are you planning to make the view?

Last Edit: March 17, 2013, 06:50:37 pm by esiann

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dada

#11 March 23, 2013, 01:10:51 pm

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oh yeah I remember that in Prince of Persia, the original (at least in the 8086 PC version) at some point you find a potion that increases your max health somewhere. they're very rare and very useful so naturally you'll want to grab it. but to get to it you have to pass a REALLY dangerous section. after finally passing the section, right before you get to claim your reward, your MIRROR SELF runs up from the other side and grabs the potion. (it's impossible to grab it before he reaches it.) so you just spent a lot of time moving through a dangerous place, probably dying a couple of times before succeeding, for absolutely no reward whatsoever. that's real sadism.

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