Hmmm Bobby Fischer dies at 64 (Read 1236 times)

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You know nothing about chess. Don't pretend like you do.

I'm Indian buddy, I told you earlier all my friends were chess dorks (which is why I have zero interest in it). Russia made chess what it is, not Bobby Fischer. Fischer may have had an impact on the AMERICAN side but it's always been Russians and Europeans who have fostered growth and interest in chess.

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I don't expect you to change your mind over this, anyway. You're not a chess player, so you don't see him in the same way that I do. You can argue that he was a terrible person who caused more harm to society than good to chess, but that's debatable. I don't consider Fischer to have been a major influence on international politics. He was just an individual, after all.

And yeah, go argue that last part however much you want. But you don't have an understanding of chess players if you think that most of the chess world isn't going to be saddened by this news.

I can honestly say that if anyone in a circle that I paid attention to, political, musical, whatever, died and they had a history of anti-semitism or racism, I wouldn't call them a hero. some of my favorite writers and thinkers went on to do incredibly terrible things and I don't call them heroes.

I find it incredibly suspect that you posted an OP without once mentioning the only thing Fischer's been doing for the past like twenty years. you can keep saying "A LOSS FOR THE CHESS WORLD" but you're purposefully ignoring the fact that after 1975 Fischer played about once. he also made ridiculous demands, resigned the title of world champ but then later refused to believe anyone else was, and claimed professional chess was all rigged.

how you heroworship this man even in a chess communal sense is beyond me. you're purposefully ignoring everything he did in and after 1975, in attempt to glorify his image, when in fact his continued existence was an embarassment to the chess community.

He wasn't "a" hero. He was one of my heroes. That has nothing to do with you. He was hardly a hero to the world.

You guys just didn't get inspired by Fischer like I did. That's the issue here. I'm a chess player and I know that he was one of the most iconic and important figures in the history of the game. Whether he was the greatest, I don't know, but he's the reason a lot of people are playing it today, including some of the top players, like Kasparov.And yeah, feel free to flame me for taking up this stance or whatever (there's no need to do that by the way, Man-O-War). But that's what I think. And I'm not excusing the fact he was a lunatic. Because he was. I'm not trying to downplay it either, despite thinking that he wasn't actually harmful at any time. But I'm a chess player and I find it difficult.

well uh, first off, you don't play professionally, do you? it's like your, what, year long fascination with a game has led you to some greater understanding than myself or anyone else? everyone knows what it's like to respect someone for what they do but abhor them as human beings. Fischer made a lot of public statements, and quite a few that were denigrating professional chess. we can draw a parallel in the situation.

I just don't like the fact that I opened this topic, expecting you of all people to address his very famous comments, and then discover you purposefully glossed over them and then got incredibly defensive and harsh when I brought up the fact that he was a terrible human being, if a spectacular chess player. the second does not excuse the first and then that raises the question as to why you think it does to the degree that you'd say he's a personal hero.
brian chemicals
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I'm not flaming you because you're defending a psychotic anti-Semite (well, maybe that is part of it), I'm flaming you because you're coming off as a huge elitist.
First of all, I'm not defending him for his anti-semitic statements. Everything that he's done after 1972, I disagree with. Maybe you'll remember the fact that I'm very much against any kind of discrimination, as I've shown time and again in this forum. Please don't try and paint me as though I disagree with you when you state that he was crazy. I've already said many times that I agree with you on that.

But the issue here, and it's hard to make that clear without coming off as an elitist, is that it might be very difficult to appreciate this man if you don't know his legacy. I've attempted to explain how much of an important person he was to the game of chess, but I guess you can't really describe that very easily. One thing you must know is that when I say that he was a big source of inspiration to me, I'm not trying to hide some of the terrible things that he did. I really don't know what went wrong there.

It's difficult to explain, but it's true. Chess players around the world are sad to hear this news. That's the way it is. And it might seem elitist, but it's simply a fact that non-chess players seem to be outside of that completely. I can't do anything about that.
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I can't believe you don't understand what I'm saying. Do honestly believe there is a point in arguing with a bigot? He is a fucking bigot! Shake your head in disbelief and call him out when you know... When you see him doing shit and try and reason with him all you might on a personal level. I didn't know he was in a position of influence at the time. I'm basically saying that if you see him insulting some then by all means go ahead and call him out. You can even call him out on what he has done in the past too from what you read, sure. We already established that he was a racist person, but guess what. A LOT OF GENIOUS TYPES had retarded flaws. Like say, Sigmund Freud? He was a sick as hell and we still read upon him and admire him in are educational systems don't we? There are obviously other examples too.

I don't know him personally and from what I heard, he sounds like a racist prick. But seriously, do you battle ever person who is racist or believes in unethical things? Wow, good luck on that buddy. What are you trying to prove here.

"Hey guys, this guy was a racist asshole so don't even DARE think he is cool or anything"

The man is dead and honestly, that's usually the time where you know... We forgive people OR turn the other cheek. Your pretty much spitting on his grave and saying fuck you man. Even if he said something about my race I would not call him on it now that he is dead. Why? Because nothing you say will change what he has already done.

Also, what I meant about the whole "Position of power" was that what he said verbablly probably did not  translate into DEATHS OF JEWS. He was an OLD KOOK and your a fool to take what he said so personally IMO.

Just for your information, I don't give a crap about chess and I actually am relating more with you about how much of a bigot he was.
Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 12:44:54 am by Macubex
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PERSONAL EXAMPLE: one of my favorite wrestlers, as in cheesy WWE, was this guy named Chris Benoit. I loved this idiotic motherfucker. he lisped when he talked because he was missing most of his teeth, and he had this speech about how he'd take Kurt Angle down 50 "pertenth". his finishing move was to fall on someone and hit them with his head. he was ridiculous and Sredni and I used to seriously respect the guy for just being completely over the top and insane and funny. when Eddie Guerrero died, Chris Benoit just broke into tears on camera and couldn't even talk. as ridiculous as wrestling is, it was touching and I respected him for throwing away the image of a "tough guy" and just breaking down entirely. if I really really was into wrestling, he would have been a hero to me because he was seriously the perfect wrestler in my eyes.

and then Chris Benoit killed his wife and child and himself.

I do not view Chris Benoit with respect anymore.

like I said, we all know what it is like to respect someone for what they did, and abhor them for who they are. it doesn't lend itself to hero worship.

I can't believe you don't understand what I'm saying. Do honestly believe there is a point in arguing with a bigot? He is a fucking bigot! Shake your head in disbelief and call him out when you know... When you see him doing shit and try and reason with him all you might on a personal level. I didn't know he was in a position of influence at the time. I'm basically saying that if you see him insulting some then by all means go ahead and call him out.

I don't know him personally and from what I heard, he sounds like a racist prick. But seriously, do you battle ever person who is racist or believes in unethical things? Wow, good luck on that buddy. What are you trying to prove here.

"Hey guys, this guy was a racist asshole so don't even DARE think he is cool or anything"

The man is dead and honestly, that's usually the time where you know... We forgive people OR turn the other cheek. Your pretty much spitting on his grave and saying fuck you man. Even if he said something about my race I would not call him on it now that he is dead. Why? Because nothing you say will change what he has already done.

Also, what I meant about the whole "Position of power" was that what he said verbablly probably did not  translate into DEATHS OF JEWS. He was an OLD KOOK and your a fool to take what he said so personally IMO.

Just for your information, I don't give a crap about chess and I actually am relating more with you about how much of a bigot he was.

the point isn't to insult Fischer, but to be realistic about him. he was a great chess player, and a terrible godawful human being, and I felt the OP didn't reflect that at all.

also Fischer started making anti-semitic comments in 1975, three years after he won his last championship. if he was a kook, he still was sharp enough to be a world champ. far more likely that despite his chess brilliance, he was a twisted bigot all along.
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Ok so we get the point?

I still don't see how that changes anything? What am I suppose to think about his death now? That he was racist so I won't even think about anything he accomplished in life?

Edit:

I see it wasn't mention in Dada's post. I guess that's what your refering to?
Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 12:54:25 am by Macubex
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I'm Indian buddy, I told you earlier all my friends were chess dorks (which is why I have zero interest in it). Russia made chess what it is, not Bobby Fischer. Fischer may have had an impact on the AMERICAN side but it's always been Russians and Europeans who have fostered growth and interest in chess.

Wrong.

He was a major source of inspiration to European chess players as well, and revitalized interest in the game for a wider audience. The 1972 world championship was huge, everywhere. Everybody was following the proceedings. Everybody read about the fact he simply refused to show up for his second match. Everybody knows how he complained about the audience, the cameras and the lighting and even the light reflection on the table they were playing at. My dad, who knew barely anything about chess at the time, was following the stories in the newspaper while he was on vacation. It had more than an impact on the American scene.

I find it incredibly suspect that you posted an OP without once mentioning the only thing Fischer's been doing for the past like twenty years. you can keep saying "A LOSS FOR THE CHESS WORLD" but you're purposefully ignoring the fact that after 1975 Fischer played about once.
First off, I said in my original post that he never played an official move again after 1972.

how you heroworship this man even in a chess communal sense is beyond me. you're purposefully ignoring everything he did in and after 1975, in attempt to glorify his image, when in fact his continued existence was an embarassment to the chess community.
Man, what are you even talking about?

I'm trying to explain how great of a chess player he was and how much of an inspiration he has been to the entire chess world.

I spent half a post just talking about some of the ridiculous things he did after 1972. And rightfully so, because people should know what a strange guy he was. Why are you accusing me of this kind of stuff?

well uh, first off, you don't play professionally, do you? it's like your, what, year long fascination with a game has led you to some greater understanding than myself or anyone else?
:words:

I've played chess since a long time (and briefly took lessons from Cor van Weigeren!), but it's been about half a year, give or take, since I started seriously practicing again.

But I'm not claiming to have some kind of grand understanding of the game. I'm not a professional player. But I've been studying it for some time and have a good understanding of how chess strategy works. And I've personally studied Bobby Fischer's games. I haven't just glanced over some analysis of his games by a grandmaster. I've put in the effort myself because I want to know how to play chess like he did.

Anyway there's really no need to get so personal about this, man. I don't know how many times I need to repeat that I disagree with basically everything he's done after his victory in 1972. All the things I omitted were basically because I don't see the point in highlighting every detail of the things he did, that would have made the post too long. Also because then I would have to explain everything (you expect me to get away with just saying "Bobby Fischer believes jews kill elephants for their penises"?)
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Ya probably should have mentioned that he was a bigot though Dada. I assumed that you at least mentioned it and Steel look like he was just calling you out on that fact.

Although I still disagree with him saying you shouldn't look up to him since that really isn't his decision to make.
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also Fischer started making anti-semitic comments in 1975, three years after he won his last championship. if he was a kook, he still was sharp enough to be a world champ. far more likely that despite his chess brilliance, he was a twisted bigot all along.
I think he started making them sooner than that. He accused the people who organized his simuls of stealing his part of the money. They were all jews to him. (Actually I'm not sure whether he made those statements before 1975 but I believe so.) He also once drew a large circle on a map around the city he was playing a tournament in and said "my mother is not allowed within this circle". His mother was Jewish but I'm not exactly sure what his relationship with her was at the end of her life.

I see it wasn't mention in Dada's post. I guess that's what your refering to?
I did mention it in my post!!
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Ya probably should have mentioned that he was a bigot though Dada.
Part of my post is exclusively about the crazy stuff he did after 1972. I even quoted him stating that he thinks all Jews should die and that America should be wiped off the map.

Just... read the post before you make accusations like that, please.

Maybe I could have devoted more space to it but besides the 1992 match and his statements about America and the Jews there weren't really that many notable things. He accused the Soviets of rigging the matches, yes, but beyond that I can't think of anything that's interesting enough to devote time to. If you want to know more about the disagreeable stuff he did, go look it up on Wikipedia or something. I decided to not detail every inch of his life. I'm not a reporter.

EDIT: also, interestingly, a while ago Doktormartini said that he wasn't going to vote for "some of the democrats" because "they're zionists". And I responded by saying "too bad Bobby Fischer isn't running for president, then". Man I don't get why I'm even trying to defend myself here when I shouldn't even have to.
Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 01:03:58 am by Dada
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Funny how I read that but I thought Steel mention it.

MY APOLOGIES!!
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it's just a little fucked that in your own thoughts on the death you completely ignored Fischer's terrible terrible politics and insults against the chess community (frequently claiming that chess should be randomized so no one else could set up games against him and how no one else was World Champion, just BOBBY FISCHER WORLD CHAMP) in favor of just talking about what a great and influential guy he is. it's revisionistic and that's why I posted my shock that you'd ignore that in favor of his ability, considering his paranoia and politics had a great deal to do with his fame both in the chess world and out of it.

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Anyway there's really no need to get so personal about this, man.

you kind of made it personal by saying YOU KNOW NOTHING OF CHESS FEH...FEH... you don't need to know chess to know people. the half a post in question is from the article or later when I and someone else brought it up.

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I see it wasn't mention in Dada's post. I guess that's what your refering to?

yeah man. if I found some article and then only mentioned the parts I liked about the person in question, I'd expect any of you to call me a douchebag!
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it's just a little fucked that in your own thoughts on the death you completely ignored Fischer's terrible terrible politics and insults against the chess community (frequently claiming that chess should be randomized so no one else could set up games against him and how no one else was World Champion, just BOBBY FISCHER WORLD CHAMP) in favor of just talking about what a great and influential guy he is.
I didn't completely ignore it. I even quoted him saying that all Jews should die.

To be honest, I didn't think I'd need to try harder. Tell me something, don't you think it's a little ridiculous that because he was a racist, I'm obliged to inform you of every racist statement he made in his life, because if I don't, then obviously I'm hiding it in order to make him look better?

By the way, his suggestion about chess being randomized is Chess960, which randomizes the positions of the pieces. The game is essentially the same, but all opening theory is void. It's fun to play, too, and I'm kind of good at coming up with a way to do the opening.

you kind of made it personal by saying YOU KNOW NOTHING OF CHESS FEH...FEH... you don't need to know chess to know people.
Okay, I shouldn't have said that. I'm sorry about that. But the truth is that he was more important than you make him out to be. Fischer was, plain simply, the most notable chess player in history. I think his influence is greater than that of, say, his successor, Karpov, or the one that broke all records, Kasparov.

EDIT: also I'm going to sleep now please don't let me wake up to three pages of "HAHA I'M GLAD HE'S DEAD" :(
Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 01:12:44 am by Dada
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Dada, don't you understand? Saying anything bad about the jews automatically negates anything good you've ever done

What was this topic about anyway?
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Dada, don't you understand? Saying anything bad about the jews automatically negates anything good you've ever done

What was this topic about anyway?

This actually made me laugh, but on topic I kind of want to play Chess right now. I'm pretty good at it but the people that forever to make moves almost always make me want to quit the game.

Thank you Bobby, I may brush off my chess board sometime this week because of you.
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I mean more that your OPINION didn't mention it. instead you threw it in the news article restatement!

you gave the facts sure but then kind of didn't mention them when talking about what a person he was, and then claimed he was a personal hero; do you not see how that's kind of fucked!?

Dada, don't you understand? Saying anything bad about the jews automatically negates anything good you've ever done

What was this topic about anyway?

no one ever said that and honestly considering the amount of fakeposts you make regarding how you distrust jews you might not want to be defending Bobby Fischer.
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I mean more that your OPINION didn't mention it. instead you threw it in the news article restatement!

you gave the facts sure but then kind of didn't mention them when talking about what a person he was, and then claimed he was a personal hero; do you not see how that's kind of fucked!?

no one ever said that and honestly considering the amount of fakeposts you make regarding how you distrust jews you might not want to be defending Bobby Fischer.

Not with exactly those words but weren't you who said he was an "anti-semitic" monster who deserved to die alone and be ostracized? You kind of ignored his influence just because of that
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...no?

he had his success from his influence already. afterwards, all he did was denigrate the game, those in it, and make anti-semitic comments. he deserves to be ostracized and he was a monster.

he was a terrible human being and deserved to be as actively disliked as he was. that has nothing to do with his influence.

edit: unless you are talking about making chess more popular as a "good" action although aside from my comments saying it was almost always Russia that has popularized chess, Fischer himself did very little directly to promote chess unless it was to make comments about how bad chess tournaments were, and the reason he popularized chess was a result of his ability, not an exercise of it.
Last Edit: January 19, 2008, 01:44:01 am by dangerousned
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...no?

he had his success from his influence already. afterwards, all he did was denigrate the game, those in it, and make anti-semitic comments. he deserves to be ostracized and he was a monster.

he was a terrible human being and deserved to be as actively disliked as he was. that has nothing to do with his influence.

I understand, but you say he was a monster like Timothy McVeigh could be called a monster? And his mother was jewish, making him a jew too. Was he a self hating antisemitic monster jew?
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I understand, but you say he was a monster like Timothy McVeigh could be called a monster? And his mother was jewish, making him a jew too. Was he a self hating antisemitic monster jew?

uh...timothy mcveigh killed people. there are degrees of monstrosity.

also yes he was a self hating jew and that fact is well known.

inri cheetos you are the weirdest troll ever.
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uh...timothy mcveigh killed people. there are degrees of monstrosity.

also yes he was a self hating jew and that fact is well known.

inri cheetos you are the weirdest troll ever.

See! Then he could make all the antisemitic comments he wanted, just like blacks can call other blacks "niggers". Unless of course it's also racist if they use the word "nigger" amongst themselves.
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