Topic: If this doesn't scare you, it should... (Read 5804 times)

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You know, that's one of the absolute best ways to spot an argument with nothing solid to support it: making fun of the other viewpoint in an attempt to distract the audience from an actual rational evaluation of its claims.  "No, that idea's too silly to take seriously, so don't waste your time bothering.  (I sure hope they buy it...)"  It plays on the lower aspects of human nature and, unfortunately, is successful far too often.  Shame on you, Emperor Kaworu.  If you have some real clothes, let's see them.

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I could say Vista because of compatability problems with older programs, but then that is also equally to blame with the makers of them programs...
Wait a second.  If someone writes a program that works just fine under the operating system it's written for, but then doesn't work on the updated version of that system, it's his fault?  His fault for what?  Failing to properly anticipate and plan for future changes to the operating system?  I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.  Assuming something works in the first place, the blame for breaking backwards compatibility lies entirely on the shoulders of the creators of the new system.

Microsoft broke Hotmail when they acquired it.  I left after it started sending 30+ copies of all my mails to people.  Only a few months after that, a friend of mine's Hotmail account got hacked.  (This actually ended up happening to her 3 times, once by some random script kiddie and twice by a jealous ex-boyfriend whose mom worked at Microsoft.)  She tried to reset her password and ended up unable to access her account at all, so she asked me to take a look at it.  You know what I found?  The new password it assigned to her wasn't an a valid password under MSN Hotmail's password policy, so it was being rejected even before it was checked to see if it was actually the password to her account.  This is the sort of left-hand-doesn't-know-what-the-right-hand-is-doing idiocy we can expect from Microsoft.

And Hotmail still has serious problems.  Ever try to use it under OSX?  And its spam filter regularly throws away legitimate mail, especially registration emails from small communities.  It's gotten so bad that some forums won't accept Hotmail addresses anymore.  And it takes forever to load anything when I go in there, even on a broadband connection.  (I still use the Hotmail account for a few minor things.)  Yahoo!Mail, even the feature-rich Yahoo!Mail Beta, pulls things up almost as fast as I can click on them.  I don't want to see that ruined.
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OH GOD CORPORATIONS ARE DOING WHAT CORPORATIONS DO

SAVE US FROM MICROSOFT, THE ONLY COMPANY EVER TO DO THIS

You realize that google does this too right? And pretty much all large companies ever?
Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 07:32:02 pm by HybridZero
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Yahoo? microsoft is buying Yahoo... wow... you'd think they could make their own search engine and email.
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No, this is not "what (most) corporations do", and Microsoft certainly isn't the only company ever to do stuff like this.  The existence of antitrust laws demonstrate that well enough.  But that's the entire point.  When a company starts behaving like this, it's in violation of the law.  When Adam Smith defined modern capitalism, he described a system in which thriving competition works for the good of everyone involved.  Anti-competitive business is an abuse of capitalism, in which only the monopolist benefits, to the detriment of both competitors and consumers.
If there's any doubt as to what Microsoft's stance on competition is, you need look no further than Halloween Document #1, an internal Microsoft memo that was leaked several years go.  One sentence sums up their worldview quite nicely:
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Long term credibility exists if there is no way you can be driven out of business in the near term.
This isn't an opinion or a hypothesis.  This is straight from the horse's mouth, an inside view of how they look at the computer industry.  From the publisher's commentary on the document:
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Note the terminology used here "driven out of business." MS believes that putting other companies out of business is not merely "collateral damage" -- a byproduct of selling better stuff -- but rather, a direct business goal. To put this in perspective, economic theory and the typical honest, customer-oriented businessperson will think of business as a stock-car race -- the fastest car with the most skillful driver wins. Microsoft views business as a demolition derby -- you knock out as many competitors as possible, and try to maneuver things so that your competitors wipe each other out and thereby eliminate themselves. In a stock car race there are many finishers and thus many drivers get a paycheck. In a demolition derby there is just one survivor. Can you see why "Microsoft" and "freedom of choice" are absolutely in two different universes?
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I have used the same e-mail account since 1998 with hotmail and I have never had a problem. I get about one piece of junk e-mail a month. *knocks on wood*. I have also used XP since it came out and it has crashed >10 times in the... five? years I've had it. Like, I've had software crash loads, but I've always been able to get back to the shell or XP itself without much trouble. Pretty much the only time Microsoft software has ever failed me is when it tried to install SP2 without asking me and then failed it to install it properly and forever ate 500mbs of my old HDD. That was pretty awful, but considering I've been using it pretty much forever it's not so bad.

Oh, and Microsoft Works Word is proprietary (which is gay as hell, because I saved the only backup I had of something as .wps and then I would have had to buy the program [it ][/it] in order to open it) but that is alright (thanks to the internet *wink wink*).

Considering the sheer number of people using MS products, it's no wonder they have a higher failure rate. The reason macs don't get viruses is because none of the people making viruses give a shit about mac-users (or linux users, for that matter). Why target the little fish when you can catch a whale with the same effort?
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yo this is kind of fucked up shit and he's right, what's up with all the HEH..IT'S JUST BUSINESS.

that being said are they going to change the mail client? google bought youtube and didn't change it to google vid.
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that being said are they going to change the mail client? google bought youtube and didn't change it to google vid.
True, but that's because they're Google and that's how they do things.  Has Microsoft ever bought something and not immediately started to tinker with it?
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wait hotmail has been owned by microsoft since it's creation almost, i don't believe you're old enough to have used hotmail at that time!

yahoo! is currently a mess, i hate the name even. if microsoft can clean it up and make a profit good on them
I USE Q'S INSTEQD OF Q'S
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You know, that's one of the absolute best ways to spot an argument with nothing solid to support it: making fun of the other viewpoint in an attempt to distract the audience from an actual rational evaluation of its claims.  "No, that idea's too silly to take seriously, so don't waste your time bothering.  (I sure hope they buy it...)"  It plays on the lower aspects of human nature and, unfortunately, is successful far too often.  Shame on you, Emperor Kaworu.  If you have some real clothes, let's see them.
Wait a second.  If someone writes a program that works just fine under the operating system it's written for, but then doesn't work on the updated version of that system, it's his fault?  His fault for what?  Failing to properly anticipate and plan for future changes to the operating system?  I'm sorry, but that just doesn't make any sense.  Assuming something works in the first place, the blame for breaking backwards compatibility lies entirely on the shoulders of the creators of the new system.

Microsoft broke Hotmail when they acquired it.  I left after it started sending 30+ copies of all my mails to people.  Only a few months after that, a friend of mine's Hotmail account got hacked.  (This actually ended up happening to her 3 times, once by some random script kiddie and twice by a jealous ex-boyfriend whose mom worked at Microsoft.)  She tried to reset her password and ended up unable to access her account at all, so she asked me to take a look at it.  You know what I found?  The new password it assigned to her wasn't an a valid password under MSN Hotmail's password policy, so it was being rejected even before it was checked to see if it was actually the password to her account.  This is the sort of left-hand-doesn't-know-what-the-right-hand-is-doing idiocy we can expect from Microsoft.

And Hotmail still has serious problems.  Ever try to use it under OSX?  And its spam filter regularly throws away legitimate mail, especially registration emails from small communities.  It's gotten so bad that some forums won't accept Hotmail addresses anymore.  And it takes forever to load anything when I go in there, even on a broadband connection.  (I still use the Hotmail account for a few minor things.)  Yahoo!Mail, even the feature-rich Yahoo!Mail Beta, pulls things up almost as fast as I can click on them.  I don't want to see that ruined.
I don't have any real clothes, instead I wear concepts. at the moment, my tshirt is an idea, my trousers are but a mere notion. My socks... oh boy my socks are made of visions and dreams. And also I'm not making fun of you, I realy believe that Microsoft are targeting you.

There's a thing with progression, where if things get better and improve that requires serious reworking of the inards. This will reach the point where backwards compatability is impossible for some things. Yet most others work. Microsoft haven't said "We don't want non-vista programs to work". In this day and age of constant consumer support in IT fields, companies should be willing to provide patches and updates to enable their programs to work. Again, many do, and because of the very nature of software this is something we should expect, and companies should readily provide.

I've used Hotmail since 2000 and the only "problems" I have encountered are more to do with either me forgetting my password or silly amounts of spam comming from the fact that I signed up for dodgy sites. Hotmail is kinda fast (near instant load) and I have no troubles with reliability.
So yeah I am judging Microsoft based on my experiences with them. I honestly couldn't care less about how over people find their services because it doesn't really affect me. If I'd have had troubles with them then I'd be annoyed (though not jumping on the anti-microsoft bandwagon). But Genuinely they've got better products than yahoo, and hotmail is in my experience so much better. Microsoft are only known for buggy programs by the kind of people who spend 50 hours a day on their overclocked PC using enough power to send Ireland into space (and so are likely to recieve bugs due to how much they use it). To most people who don't spend their lives reading the articles on slashdot or whtever, things like this are meaningless, and we will see very little change. the guys behind Microsoft's business practice aren't idiots. They know that if they turn yahoo into "MICROSOFT PRESENTS yahoo email AN MSN PRODUCTION BROUGHT TO YOU BY BILL GATES", then they will loose people over to google, especially with how "stable" the current market is.

masonwheeler... this IS what most companies do when they can afford it. In almost every field, every big company will do what it can to try and get the highest share. Like half of all entertainment in America is owned by like 2 companies because they have brought everything and are still buying shit out. EA Games is buying tonnes of game studios so it can have the monopoly, GAME brought Gamestation last year meaning they own all major gameshops in England. This has both positive and negative effects, it causes competition to work harder, so then they have to work harder to equal than beat the competition, and when they get so big, crap like "Micro$oft" happens where people suddenly turn against them and deliberately shop at alternatives, thereby stimulating them and making a competition which can't be brought out as easily. They are breaking anti-trust laws, but they aren't the only company. Companies break laws all the time like really badly, yet it rarely gets any media attention. Microsoft are by no means the exception everybody seems to think they are.

Edit: Also please call me by my full title, The great honourable Emperor Kaworu of the Shore
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What's Yahoo?

It's what cowboys use to search rodeos ha ha.
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Damn that Shinra taking over the world.
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I know this is not the topic for this, but I never understood the term "buying out"...doesn't someone own yahoo? ( shares right?) and wouldn't you have to buy 51% of the owners out? I really don't understand it all I mean If I made a company someone can come and buy it from me even if I don't want to sell it?

Blah I'll probly take marketing as an elective next year for fun...well I'll have to at somepoint if I want to strive in my career.
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a company needs to be public (as in sell shares and crap, all shareholders are effectively part owners), so to buy it out yeah you need to simply own more than half the shares, then even if the other 49% disagree, you have the biggest say. And since it's public, they can't "not sell" it, it comes down to whether the shareholdres will want to sell (and some do since they want the money).
That's it in basic terms, I dunno I failed business as it was so mind-numbingly boring. The only interesting part was marketing, and people in marketing have no souls.
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Climbtree:  I'm old enough.  I was in high school at the time.  I switched over to Hotmail because I didn't like the way my ISP at that time handled email.  (Just as well, too.  The ISP went out of business within a year.)

Quote from: 'Kaworu
There's a thing with progression' date=' where if things get better and improve that requires serious reworking of the inards. This will reach the point where backwards compatability is impossible for some things.[/quote']
Do you actually believe that?  You're not a progammer, are you?

Good API and toolkit designers handle this issue by deprecating things.  That means they leave the old functionality in, working exactly as it worked before, but declare it to be deprecated.  In plain English, that means, "this is left in for backwards compatibility, but you shouldn't use it for new code, because we've got this other feature that does the same thing, but better."  You don't "rework" the innards; you provide an alternative.

And if the backwards-compatibility issues are the only major flaw you're aware of in Vista, you don't know enough about the OS to even be having this discussion.  Just off the top of my head, the UAC is a mess whichever way you slice it, there's DRM that doesn't work built into the core of the OS, slowing everything down, and the Aero Glass interface, while pretty, comes with ridiculous amounts of system overhead and still isn't as user-friendly as the OSX Aqua interface it so transparently copies.  (Which is not to say that Apple or OSX is perfect.  Don't anyone try and pin that strawman on me.  But one thing they've always been able to do better than anyone else is build a user interface.)

Xeno|Soft:
There are two ways to buy a publicly-traded company.  The idea is, whoever owns the largest amount of shares is the de facto owner.  If you want to become the owner, you can make an offer to the current owner to buy enough of their stock to gain a controlling interest and become the new owner.  (This is what Microsoft's trying to do to Yahoo.)

The alternative is to attempt a "hostile takeover" by buying up enough of the shares that other people (not the owner) own.  Let's say that the owner only holds 40% of the stock in his company, and the other 60% are scattered throughout various portfolios and mutual funds.  If one company manages to buy up 41% out of that 60% floating around there, they're the new guys in charge.
Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 10:13:43 pm by masonwheeler
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Bad news, this is. Microsoft have a habit of buying things and then tweaking them into irrelevancy. If they take over Yahoo, they'd better leave Flickr alone, because anything they do to it will result in its original style being diluted.

There's a thing with progression, where if things get better and improve that requires serious reworking of the inards. This will reach the point where backwards compatability is impossible for some things.
Not very often. It's true that sometimes programs need to be rewritten, but only if they're in a really bad shape. This mostly isn't the case. Rewriting parts of the program will usually be sufficient. Just think back of Netscape for a second; when they open-sourced their browser, people could see for themselves how utterly terrible the code base was. But they smacked it around and managed to create something usable, despite the fact that many people still complain that Firefox is difficult code to work with (or so I heard).

But code doesn't rust. Adding (radically) new features will hardly, if ever, warrant a complete rewrite. It's a poor business decision, too, since it takes a lot of time and resources for little result.

Besides, even when rewriting a program from scratch, you can still implement backwards compatibility. There's no reason not to.
Last Edit: February 01, 2008, 10:22:22 pm by Dada
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But code doesn't rust. Adding (radically) new features will hardly, if ever, warrant a complete rewrite. It's a poor business decision, too, since it takes a lot of time and resources for little result.
That's exactly right.

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Besides, even when rewriting a program from scratch, you can still implement backwards compatibility. There's no reason not to.
Precisely!  This is a man (I assume) who understands programming.  My TURBU project is basically rewriting RPG Maker 2000/2003 from the ground up, with improvements.  The #1 design goal is: everything that worked in RPG Maker must work in TURBU.  If people can't use what they already have, they won't want to switch.  (Granted, this is less of a consideration when you already have a monopolistic stranglehold on the market...)
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That's exactly right.
Wow, this guy used the exact same metaphor as I just did.
Quote from: 'tfa
Before Borland's new spreadsheet for Windows shipped' date=' Philippe Kahn, the colorful founder of Borland, was quoted a lot in the press bragging about how Quattro Pro would be much better than Microsoft Excel, because it was written from scratch. All new source code! As if source code rusted.[/quote']
Yeah, it would be kind of nice, for a CEO, to be able to brag about how your program is good because "it's rewritten entirely". That sure sounds very good. But in the end, it doesn't really get you all that much for a massive time investment.

I like how this article talks extensively about the disadvantages of rewriting old code. This argument in particular is very powerful:
Quote from: 'tfa
When you throw away code and start from scratch' date=' you are throwing away all that knowledge. All those collected bug fixes. Years of programming work.[/quote']
Very true.

Precisely!  This is a man (I assume) who understands programming.  My TURBU project is basically rewriting RPG Maker 2000/2003 from the ground up, with improvements.  The #1 design goal is: everything that worked in RPG Maker must work in TURBU.  If people can't use what they already have, they won't want to switch.  (Granted, this is less of a consideration when you already have a monopolistic stranglehold on the market...)
I'm actually not that much of a programmer. I do work as web programmer, but that mostly consists of rather simple ActionScript and PHP. I've never worked on a major software project, though right now I'm working on something more ambitious (a chess playing site that runs on Red5 and ActionScript 3.0 with some other fancy things thrown in, like PaperVision3D).

It's pretty cool that you're making a new program that can replace RPG Maker 2003. Indeed, you wouldn't have much support if people couldn't use RPG Maker 2003 projects in your program. Are you planning on open-sourcing it?
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Aero can be turned off... I think it (and most/all over fancy effects) are utterly stupid. It's not a fault. It's a feature to attract people, (much like bullet Time in Max Payne is horribly gay and utterly terrible... it's not a fault with the game, just a gimmick they use to sell to simple minded action fans), people who let's face it aren't gunna notice the 300MB extra RAM usage if all they're doing is flipping through itunes.
I am not a programmer/whatever, but I use it. I don't need to KNOW crap about how it works, I just need to know it works... and it does, with nothing to really affect my experience, apart from backwards compatability but then meh, KOTOR2 was hardely the greatest game so no real loss. You need to seperate between someone who uses it/cares about that crap to someone like me who just cares that it works, and works better than XP (I have had far fewer problems with Vista, and it has DX10, and regardless of how it has different doogles in it, it still runs smoother for me)
Our usage of PCs is obviously very differently based. So for me, Vista is good and has no real faults worth worrying about, for you not so. You can't really convince me AYHAHGAG VISTA SUCKS, but likewise I can't convince you that Vista isn't bug ridden, because are experiences with them are pretty polar.

(alsoyou say "If people can't use what they already have, they won't want to switch." about rpgmaker, as XP has less functions than 2k3 and the latest has even less, but people are switching over regardless. The RPGMaker world should noway be confused with the real world, more like a school playground.)
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I admit this did make me piss my pants.
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(alsoyou say "If people can't use what they already have, they won't want to switch." about rpgmaker, as XP has less functions than 2k3 and the latest has even less, but people are switching over regardless. The RPGMaker world should noway be confused with the real world, more like a school playground.)
Same principle, actually.  A lot of people are switching to these newer makers for about the same reason the majority of people switch to Vista: "latest-and-greatest syndrome".  It's newer, it's got a few flashy new features, so it must be better!  And to be fair to Enterbrain, XP could do a ton of stuff that 2000/2003 couldn't.  It was a true upgrade, even without the vehicles and all the other stuff they tossed out.  Too early to tell for VX, seeing as how it's not even released in the US yet, but a lot of the early comments I've seen don't speak too highly of the new system...

But what does Vista have that's truly new and improved?

The Aero interface, (we've been over that).
You mentioned DirectX 10.  One of the greatest game programmers of all time, who knows more about DirectX than anyone on this board ever will, said it has no real, compelling advantages over DirectX 9, and that's good enough for me.
In fact, as hard as I think about it, I can only come up with one real advantage over WinXP that doesn't introduce more problems than it fixes/improves upon, and that's the new <Alt>-<Tab> system.  But that one feature alone just isn't worth the cost of the upgrade...