The Official Metal Gear Solid 4 Topic (remember spoiler tags ppl)

Topic: The Official Metal Gear Solid 4 Topic (remember spoiler tags ppl) (Read 19598 times)

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Marcus

#261 June 17, 2008, 04:35:11 am

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These presumptuous, quasi-philosophical, deep-as-a-puddle games are much harder for me to sit through. I guess if you're saying "the story is good" then w/e what do I know, but if it is as bad for the reasons they're saying it is (obtuse, needlessly convoluted plotline, stupid characters, lame dialogue that is in no way believable, lots of stupid intellectual musing thrown about) then I don't know how you can hate NIS stuff while rating it above average.

Because it's honestly not as bad as people are saying it is. Like I said, there are handful of scenes which come off as needlessly pretentious specifically with Naomi but other than that, it's more or less James Bond the video game than anything that tries to be deep or philosophical. They occasionally remind the player that war fuels the economy, soldiers exist to kill and nothing else, blah blah blah but it doesn't degrade the plot from being above average (which is what a 6 or 7 represents for me). Those minus 4 points equal out to what I consider the occasional *sigh* or eye rolling. Now if it were a 4 or 5, that'd be the equivalent of verbally shouting "OH COME ON!"

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You act like there's some kind of double standard here, but when games like SotC come out that clearly AREN'T especially reliant on story, people don't come out of the woodwork and complain about how bad the story is, which is what it seems like you're implying.

Well, on the contrary a lot of people complained about the game's plot including the ending because it was depressing or something stupid like that but I digress. If the positive completely outweighs the negative (in this case gameplay over story) then it shouldn't completely cripple one's opinion or enjoyment of it. I stabbed myself in the leg with a pen every hour of BioShock I played after the "twist" but I still enjoyed the game a great deal at the end moreso than any other game that year and the year before it.

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edit: like gz said about how in mgs2 there were interesting issues that the game touches on: mgs4 does do some of that (using technology to suppress emotion and morality, WAR ECONOMY etc) but a lot of the time it's really overbearing and heavy-handed that it doesnt work very well.

If they cut out monlogue and gave Snake some actual dialog this problem could have easily been fixed. There are seriously scenes where Snake has about 2 lines and they seem more like theater asides than actual conversation between two people. All of the real world events were interesting (like you said the war economy and emotion controlling nanomachines) but every badguy had this lofty flowery idealistic agenda and Snake just stood there, gun pointed at them, while they spouted off 30 minutes of their ideal utopia (cue boss fight + longwinded death). If an editor had just come in and said "Okay, we don't need this to advance the storyline CUT IT" then it would be perfect.

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Rye Bread

#262 June 17, 2008, 04:48:08 am

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Yeah, I can't think of any of the actual SCENES to be that bad, just some of the monologues were pretty bad (also Naomi)

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Niitaka

#263 June 17, 2008, 04:55:47 am

Comrade!
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the worse thing about snake is that he echoes people:

Big Mama: "zero, you know, the founder of the patriots"
Snake: "...zero?" does he really have to do this ALL THE FUCKING time afasdfasd

Marcus sez: That's kind of a spoiler. Edited it for you.

Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 04:58:15 am by Marcus

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Marcus

#264 June 17, 2008, 05:01:21 am

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Snakes echo wasn't as bad as it was in MGS1 (I still can't get over that METAL GEEEEAR???? with the Hayter trademark upward inflection) but yeah, it was like the writers were trying to come up with something for him to say so they just have him reiterate everything.

I think Snake is closer to a mute hero in this game than any other game. He's basically a sponge for everyone elses' thoughts (but he does berate Campbel for marrying Rose which I smiled at and quietly cheered him on). I think a 7 fairly represents an overall decent script sullied by Kojima's trademark exposition.

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maladroithim

#265 June 17, 2008, 02:49:53 pm

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Quote from: Marcus on June 17, 2008, 05:01:21 am

Snakes echo wasn't as bad as it was in MGS1 (I still can't get over that METAL GEEEEAR???? with the Hayter trademark upward inflection) but yeah, it was like the writers were trying to come up with something for him to say so they just have him reiterate everything.

I think Snake is closer to a mute hero in this game than any other game. He's basically a sponge for everyone elses' thoughts (but he does berate Campbel for marrying Rose which I smiled at and quietly cheered him on). I think a 7 fairly represents an overall decent script sullied by Kojima's trademark exposition.

Well I figured that Snake was so quiet because we know what he'll say by now and he doesn't really need to say it anymore. Also Jesus he's extremely depressed and I got the impression that he just didn't have the willpower to care enough to say anything. Like if he narrows his eyebrows and points his gun at someone you sort of know what he's thinking. But I agree that if once or twice he would have just exclaimed Shut up! it would have been amazing.

Last Edit: June 17, 2008, 03:01:28 pm by maladroithim

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GZ

#266 June 17, 2008, 03:59:22 pm

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how can you forget one of the worst parts of the story? nanomachines itself. everything that you cannot possibly explained is done so with NANOMACHINES. this is the most retarded bullshit and it pissed me off the entire time. admittedly they used nanomachines in the other games, but never to this degree. this is such a lazy way to explain things and in general i felt the game took any means possible to finish up the story, which ended up in a train wreck.

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Yeah, I can't think of any of the actual SCENES to be that bad, just some of the monologues were pretty bad (also Naomi)

meryl and johnny "marry me" scene, NO ARMS RAIDEN FIGHTING GUYS, vamp and raiden fight, ocelot on the boat scene (this scene has so many problems with it)

the list goes on. the game can't be two things at once. in other words, they want you to give a shit about the characters and scenario in this game but they do this ridiculous over the top shit. another terrible part in the game is how they diliberately went out of their way to hurt snake in hopes of making it more epic, but failed in every regard in my opinion, and was completely forced.

remember when snake had to go through the microwave corridor? why did he? MKII opened the door himself anyway so what was the point of snake going forward? that's right, just to make snake go ARGHGRG more.

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Well I figured that Snake was so quiet because we know what he'll say by now and he doesn't really need to say it anymore. Also Jesus he's extremely depressed and I got the impression that he just didn't have the willpower to care enough to say anything. Like if he narrows his eyebrows and points his gun at someone you sort of know what he's thinking.

this seems very characteristic. a gruff soldier who doesn't give a damn would sit by and just listen to these idiots tell their stories. or, you know, shoot them in the head and be done with it? as in, like every other solider he has encountered in the game. snake was a tool of the story so they could WRAP IT UP. snake was such an inconsistent character it isn't even funny (in this game).

if you like stupid wacky stories, i am not going to hold it against anyone who likes the story, but i cannot stand how anyone could say this is actually GOOD in any capacity. there are a lot of BAD GAMES i like but i would never defend them and say they are actually good. metal gear is a good game, but everything in regards to story and characters hovers around average or worse.

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Supra Mairo

#267 June 17, 2008, 05:11:14 pm

[Utada Hikaru <3]
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Quote from: GZ on June 17, 2008, 03:59:22 pm

remember when snake had to go through the microwave corridor? why did he? MKII opened the door himself anyway so what was the point of snake going forward? that's right, just to make snake go ARGHGRG more.

Ahaha yeah you have Raiden and MKII there but no no no no, its up to Snake, the guy who is halfway dead and actually completely ORGANIC, to crawl through the corridor so he can crawl up to die in the server room while MKII just pretty much did everything on his own.

I wonder if Hayter got like 200x times smaller paycheck for this one since he did like 5 minutes worth of dialogue for Snake.

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Carrion Crow

#268 June 17, 2008, 08:16:34 pm

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I'm a big fan of the series and I having just completed it I would say I don't think I have ever been so amazed by a videogame...

What's next for Kojima?

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Marcus

#269 June 17, 2008, 11:51:26 pm

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how can you forget one of the worst parts of the story? nanomachines itself. everything that you cannot possibly explained is done so with NANOMACHINES. this is the most retarded bullshit and it pissed me off the entire time. admittedly they used nanomachines in the other games, but never to this degree. this is such a lazy way to explain things and in general i felt the game took any means possible to finish up the story, which ended up in a train wreck.

I dunno what you're talking about here because they really didn't do anything that hasn't already been introduced in the previous games. I had my fill of nanomachines with Deus Ex but all they really did was link nanomachines with the control of people's bodies (which is pretty much what nanomachines are supposed to do in theory) and the genetic alteration of Snake's genes which created the mutated virus.

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the list goes on. the game can't be two things at once. in other words, they want you to give a shit about the characters and scenario in this game but they do this ridiculous over the top shit. another terrible part in the game is how they diliberately went out of their way to hurt snake in hopes of making it more epic, but failed in every regard in my opinion, and was completely forced.

I'm on the fence here because MGS has always been over the top but it's remained in the realm of science fiction. In Metal Gear, you defeat Big Boss with a lighter and aerosol spray. In Metal Gear 2 you destroy a super computer which was supposedly the anti-patriot weapon. In Metal Gear Solid you go up against a guy with ESP and psychic powers and a robotic ninja. MGS2 pretty much soared passed the bar but it was all a simulation so it doesn't count. The Cobra unit in MGS3 was pretty wacky but their powers were still somewhat grounded in reality; you can control bees with pheremones (which I assume is what The Pain does) and The End gathers energy from the sun (which is kind of fantasy-ish but not too far fetched).

If they had removed Raiden and Vamp from the equation, the suspension of disbelief would have been much easier IMO. The story is still science fiction but the B&B's, FROGS, and Metal Gears are plausible in a near future setting. Vamp, on the other hand, and Superman Raiden were well into the realms of fantasy. Their existence in the game was pure fanservice and really hurt the flow of the story but they were small time players so it's not like the entire game hinged on their appearance.

I guess I expected a degree of crazy shit in the game because, well, Metal Gear Solid is a science fiction game with fantasy elements. In the same effect that James Bond has villains that can catch bullets in their teeth and kill people by throwing a hat, MGS has robot ninjas and organic mechas. I guess by setting the game close to real world events, majority of the players expect the game to be realistic or plausible but I see this as completely opposite of the case. I hung my disbelief at the door well before turning on the game. I penalize the game for the occasional Shonen Action Moment a.k.a. SHAM(c) but for the most part it's 100% science-fiction and there's no way I'd say it's HORRIBLE or GOD-AWFUL science fiction.

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Rye Bread

#270 June 18, 2008, 12:13:15 am

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I could accept Raiden to an because he was partly mechanical at that point, but nothing involving Vamp fully explained his superhuman abilities and his complete disregard of physics.

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Marcus

#271 June 18, 2008, 12:25:26 am

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Quote from: Evil Bob on June 18, 2008, 12:13:15 am

I could accept Raiden to an because he was partly mechanical at that point, but nothing involving Vamp fully explained his superhuman abilities and his complete disregard of physics.

Well actually it was passed off as being the nanomachines in his blood which I can understand to a degree (the whole point of them is to help humans repair tissue and enhance basic abilities) but, and this goes back to what GZ was saying (but a smaller degree) it really ruined his character.

Here's my beef with Vamp and Raiden; Vamp was supposed to be one of the major villains in MGS2. He had an air of mystery and magic surrounding him; was he really a vampire? Who knows, who cares, he was a menace and pretty dispacable, you shot him in the head it should have been over there. By reintroducing him, they turned him into a 2-bit lackey with superpowers. Running on water, dodging bullets, that can be explained as special monk training or predicting where shots will be fired or something. I can believe that in a science fiction setting.

But Vamp was dancing around and leaping 30 feat in the air and Raiden, get this, WAS BREAK DANCING TWO GECKOS ATTACHED TO A CORD. Slicing a GECKO's legs and running fast I can believe, but Raiden had the strength to literally pick up 10 tons of robots with his legs and SPIN AROUND ON HIS HANDS yet that same strength didn't completely obliterate Vamp when he stepped on the guy's chest??? Raiden was even pulling off Dead or Alive moves with his SWORD-IN-BOOT spinning around and quadruple sword spinning somersaults.

Those two characters are the only ones that drew me out of the story and left an awful taste in my mouth. Vamp and Raiden have the combined power to kill Ocelot in a heartbeat but they spend it in a cheesy fight that was basically a spit in the face to the series' events. I'm pretty sure there were people MASTURBATING to the scene because, in all honesty, it was very well done fight scene but it had absolutely no place in the game. Any writer worth his salt will tell you that if a scene doesn't advance the story or connect to the theme, it should be cut but this scene was clearly masturbatory and quite possibly the hugest fanservice I've ever seen in a video game. Period.

So everything else I can easily understand being in a fictional universe. Frank Jagger and Olga as the robot Ninja is believable. Nanomachines healing wounds and causing you to go insane is believable. Mechanical suits that enhance human abilities is believable. A guy breakdancing robots and a dude that heals instaneously belongs in Naruto or something. Once again, fanservice, but thankfully it just one scene and the game moves ahead quickly.

Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 12:30:02 am by Marcus

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GZ

#272 June 18, 2008, 12:46:28 am

Gythol Granditti will be out "soon". Honest.
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in regards to nanomachines solidus' body was kept alive with nanomachines as well. however i think you are glossing over this, because i don't know of any game that abused such a thing to this degree. for instance, if anyone with half a brain knew you could SEND CODES to nanomachines and disables soldiers or their weapons they would have found out about it far before the patriots. given how we are in this super high tech alternate universe it makes no sense why anyone hasn't had this discovery. in OUR timeline people get afraid of shit like the VERICHIP and all it does it send radio data. what i am saying here is that if they wanted to do ANYTHING in this story all they have to say is one word: nanomachines. i get the whole suspension of disbelief but metal gear isn't even consistent in it's own universe.

in general this game did whatever the fuck it wanted and offered the cheapest or no explanation at all. i won't comment on the other metal gears, MGS1 was the only one that had a semi-serious story, but it's no surprise that was the game that skyrocketed the series.

basically i am a faggot for even going in depth to this stuff, but when i was playing this game every 5 minutes i asked myself "WHY ARE THEY DOING THIS / THIS MAKES NO SENSE" and very little effort went into explaining any of this.

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Marcus

#273 June 18, 2008, 01:02:06 am

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I thought it was explained that the nanomachine override (essentially the ISD or whatever the hell it was called) was a failsafe designed during the Genome soldier project and the only way to activate it was using Big Boss' cells? It's safe to bet that people jumped on the idea to become living breathing super soldiers and something like a failsafe override or a control mechanism was strictly unheard of.

This is a funny conversation because this "wizard did it" mechanic can be traced back to other stories like Star Wars and the mitichlorians or whatever (tiny little parasites that affect reality or something stupid like that).

EDIT: For those of you who aren't following, the series of events leading up to LOL NANOMACHINES goes like this: (yeah yeah, this entire thing is past game spoilers shut up)

1: Big Boss, greatest soldier in the world.

2: Les Enfants Terribles project which creates three clones of Big Boss.

3: Outer Heaven and Zanzibar conflict where Solid Snake kills Big Boss.

4: The Genome Soldier Project begins which takes the genetic DNA from Snake and fuses them with nanomachines to create enhanced soldiers. Snake defeats the perfect clone, Liquid, who was killed by FOXDIE because his genetics matched up (FOXDIE is essentially a failsafe). Snake, being the imperfect clone, isn't affected.

From there, nanomachines are used to monitor soldiers on the battlefield and they were enhanced in MGS4 to the point where soldiers can sense what their comrades are experiencing. Liquid has a way of literally shutting down the nanomachines in the soldier's blood and wants to use this technology to overthrow the Patriots. Snake is dying, he finds out something terrible about FOXDIE (he becomes a walking plague bag) and has nothing better to do but to stop him.

That's pretty much a summation of all the events that lead up to the game's story.

Last Edit: June 18, 2008, 01:15:49 am by Marcus

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GZ

#274 June 18, 2008, 01:13:27 am

Gythol Granditti will be out "soon". Honest.
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spoiles (heard direct from kojima(): the entire game is the dream of a drunk homeless man who drank too much lysol

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Marcus

#275 June 18, 2008, 01:21:42 am

THE FAT ONE
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You don't own the special edition dvd but they say in the documentary that the game is a VR simulation programmed by Dr. Hal Emmerich to create the perfect gamer; one who is destined to spend their money following a game series and it's dozens of incarnations over the course of 20 years.

It is fate that brought you to MGS4, GZ. Do not deny it. Because to deny fate is to deny yourself. You are the perfect gamer. My creation. 5,000 years ago when the earth was raw, your ancestors crawled from the primordial ooze and looked upon their new domain, and it was good.

Who am I you ask? Why, I am the PaTrIoTs.

*ring ring* *ring ring* Yes. They have been fooled. Yes, all is not as it seems. Yes, this hidden codec message at the end of the credits instills doubt and mystery into an otherwise convoluted plot. Yes, they are arguing on the forum right now. Yes, it is ridiculous but your plan has worked perfectly. Have a nice day............................... Mr. Kojima.

The End?

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pburn

#276 June 18, 2008, 01:31:25 am

What, me worry?
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Quote from: Marcus on June 18, 2008, 01:21:42 am

You don't own the special edition dvd but they say in the documentary that the game is a VR simulation programmed by Dr. Hal Emmerich to create the perfect gamer; one who is destined to spend their money following a game series and it's dozens of incarnations over the course of 20 years.

Is this legit? I have the limited edition set but I don't plan on opening it soon. Metal Gear limited editions always go for a ridiculous amount of money. A limited Subsistence set recently went for like $200 recently opened on ebay.

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Marcus

#277 June 18, 2008, 01:44:12 am

THE FAT ONE
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Quote from: Psyburn on June 18, 2008, 01:31:25 am

Is this legit? I have the limited edition set but I don't plan on opening it soon. Metal Gear limited editions always go for a ridiculous amount of money. A limited Subsistence set recently went for like $200 recently opened on ebay.

Psyburn... I just don't know about you, man! The sad thing is that what I just typed actually sounds PLAUSIBLE in the "MGS Universe."

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Fujin

#278 June 19, 2008, 01:25:51 am

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Quote from: GZ on June 17, 2008, 03:59:22 pm

remember when snake had to go through the microwave corridor? why did he? MKII opened the door himself anyway so what was the point of snake going forward? that's right, just to make snake go ARGHGRG more.

Because the Mk.III couldn't have been able to stand up against that shitload of gekkos (or whatever mini-gekkos they were).

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GZ

#279 June 19, 2008, 05:46:01 am

Gythol Granditti will be out "soon". Honest.
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Quote from: Fujin on June 19, 2008, 01:25:51 am

Because the Mk.III couldn't have been able to stand up against that shitload of gekkos (or whatever mini-gekkos they were).

i am guessing you are referring to the sentries (small black 3-legged robots), first of all they had no idea of knowing they would be in there (how the hell did they get in there even? the door behind you was locked), and snake did nothing at all in the room once he got there. the sentries more of less just swarmed snake and ignored the MKII, so that's not really a valid answer in my opinion. more or less i am saying they only put snake through that to try and make things more epic when MKII could have easily done this by himself, or raiden could have done it. they just wanted to go for more CINEMATIC appeal, and it was even more ridiculous how naomi had more LAST WORDS with her after death video.

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Fujin

#280 June 19, 2008, 07:37:56 am

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Quote from: GZ on June 19, 2008, 05:46:01 am

i am guessing you are referring to the sentries (small black 3-legged robots), first of all they had no idea of knowing they would be in there

Well, knowing it was the server room for the AI, they knew it was going to be highly secured (I remember someone saying that on the Missouri, but I'm not sure). It's obvious in my opinion. Plus, you could clearly see the robots coming from behind those gravestone-things, so they must have been implanted there already.

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and snake did nothing at all in the room once he got there. the sentries more of less just swarmed snake and ignored the MKII, so that's not really a valid answer in my opinion.

If it doesn't make my answer valid, it certainly doesn't yours either. How could the Mk. III have done it on his own, if Snake wouldn't have been there to distract the sentries? I'm just left to guess they didn't NOTICE the Mk. III. I don't know, maybe they were programmed to attack one target at a time?

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more or less i am saying they only put snake through that to try and make things more epic when MKII could have easily done this by himself, or raiden could have done it.

It was pretty much explained in the game. Snake volunteered to do it, because he knew he was going to die soon and it wouldn't have made much difference if he died in the microwave corridor. He told Raiden just before the corridor that he had a future ahead of himself, unlike Snake.

Last Edit: June 19, 2008, 07:41:57 am by Fujin

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