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Topic: Stem Cell Research (Read 3062 times)

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samurai_sword

#21 June 22, 2008, 11:10:37 am

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People could think if it this way. Anti-abortion people. Even know you hate in and want to kill the mother that decides to go with it, the fact is it will and does happen. There is no way to stop it, no matter what you do, its sad yes. but fact. so taking into account that, This is a way for the "lost" to still make a difference. Instead of just discarding them, They still get a chance to help the world. Its kinda like this (although this is accident where as abortion is choice) If you (heaven forged) ever have a child that dies in a car accident by head trauma, the rest of their organs are 100% in perfectly healthy condition. And you have a friend that has a son with liver failure, and the doctors tell you about a Girl in the other end of the Hospital who needs a new heart, both kid have been waiting for over a year for they need replacement organs. they Both have now less than a 3 months to live unless helped. are you going to tell me that you are going to have a problem with helping them. You did not want you child to die but it happens anyway, but they still have a chance to make a difference. If the lost of the world can save 1...5...50...100...1,000...1,000,000 then for fuck sake. why would you EVER be against it.

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Mr. Actionist

#22 June 22, 2008, 11:32:42 am

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Quote from: Marmot on June 22, 2008, 10:26:46 am

i dont even remember seeing the bible condemning things like abortion.

You're right, that's just the pope making up shit.

Quote from: samurai_sword on June 22, 2008, 11:10:37 am

People could think if it this way. Anti-abortion people. Even know you hate in and want to kill the mother that decides to go with it, the fact is it will and does happen. There is no way to stop it, no matter what you do, its sad yes. but fact. so taking into account that, This is a way for the "lost" to still make a difference. Instead of just discarding them, They still get a chance to help the world. Its kinda like this (although this is accident where as abortion is choice) If you (heaven forged) ever have a child that dies in a car accident by head trauma, the rest of their organs are 100% in perfectly healthy condition. And you have a friend that has a son with liver failure, and the doctors tell you about a Girl in the other end of the Hospital who needs a new heart, both kid have been waiting for over a year for they need replacement organs. they Both have now less than a 3 months to live unless helped. are you going to tell me that you are going to have a problem with helping them. You did not want you child to die but it happens anyway, but they still have a chance to make a difference. If the lost of the world can save 1...5...50...100...1,000...1,000,000 then for fuck sake. why would you EVER be against it.

This. Also, how many people do we have in the world right now? I don't think we need to be worrying because some cells will never become a human body. In reading Ishmael, I learned that the more food we have, the more we'll breed. We'll always be in some sort of hunger crisis, somewhere, as long as that keeps going on. The world is becoming overpopulated. If we make life easier for people who are here, it just seems to me it would be a better world than if we limited ourselves, for whatever reason.

Upon arriving the attending doctor could find no abnormal physical symptoms other than extremely dilated pupils. After spending several hours terrified that his body had been possessed by a demon, that his next door neighbor was a witch, and that his furniture was threatening him, Dr. Hofmann feared he had become completely insane.

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thecatamites

#23 June 22, 2008, 12:09:05 pm

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Wait, so a bunch of cells with no brain or nervous system has the same moral weight as a living, breathing human in pain from an otherwise uncureable disease? Even when the cells used were going to be discarded as medical waste anyway, because each in vitro fertilisation produces 20 or more surplus fertilised eggs? Even when the cells had no chance to develop unless they were implanted in a woman's womb, which won't happen because the number of eggs far, far outweighs the number of women in need of embryo donation?
I mean, jesus, if we were talking about using embryos for cosmetics then maybe I could see your point, but taking non-feeling, non-thinking, non-self-sustainable cells which were going to be destroyed anyway and using them to help living humans in pain should be a no-brainer.

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Alec

#24 June 22, 2008, 12:21:43 pm

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Quote from: Ryan on June 22, 2008, 05:35:28 am

all of this applies to a chicken egg! it WOULD be a chicken if allowed to grow. i mean honestly saying something WILL be something else is a pretty horrible argument. it's not sentient at the time of it's termination, and it's not self sustainable at the time of it's termination.

Chicken eggs are not fertilized. They are the hen's period basically, as someone put it in an earlier topic. There's no possibility of it becoming a chicken.

THAT BEING SAID
While I don't believe an abortion, this has very little, if anything to do with stem cell research. As has been said we don't really use aborted fetuses anymore, and so stop bringing up abortion in the topic.

That makes the dilemma slightly harder to choose sides though. With an aborted fetus, I could just say "while I don't agree with the abortion, there's nothing that can be done about it now, might as well put the kid to use," but I can't do that in this case, so here's the best proposition I can come up with and I'm guessing it sort of works like this (more or less) as it is:

When the woman has had her successful invetro, and they have leftover embryos, make SURE nobody wants them before you send them to research. I'm guessing they already do this, and that throws out the moral aspect of this, because if nobody wants it, the embryo will spoil, and if someone wants it, a baby is born.

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4Dsheep

#25 June 22, 2008, 12:34:35 pm

4Dsheep at your service!
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Quote from: Blitzen on June 22, 2008, 04:44:21 am

Well, these aren't just eggs, they are soon-to-be-grown peoples. If it were just the egg, I'd not have a problem with it. Sperm + egg = human life just like flour + water = paste.

Flour != paste.
water != paste.
Flour + water = paste.

Right.

sperm + egg = fertilised egg.
fertilised egg + gestation = baby.
sperm + egg != baby.

Every single sperm has the chance to become a full-fledged human being. Heck, every single bacterium has the chance to become a galaxy-spanning civilisation. But until they get those chances, potential and actual are not the same. Nobody cries for menstrual blood. Nobody cries for the millions of sperm that do not make it to the egg. Nobody cries for the skin cell that could be made into a clone.

The fertilised eggs that are used in stem cell research are not going to be human beings, or even babies, ever, regardless of whether or not you can save lives with them. Left-over fertilised eggs of IV are left-over because they didn't have a chance in the first place. Could you at least do some research before making up your mind about something you have nothing to do with? Letting people die out of some misplaced sense of moral superiority is not going to make these eggs into people, and you're insane for thinking it will.

Are you going to force women into pregnancies because you yourself feel bad about wasting eggs? Are you yourself going to preserve every single sperm you produce? If you answer "No, of course not, just those eggs we could manage" you are a horrible human being for thinking you have some sort of authority over which eggs is worth letting live and which isn't, and I'm going to call you a eugenicist and a megalomaniac. I don't have to tell you how I'd think about you if you answer "yes" to these questions.

"Field Marshal Haig is about to make yet another gargantuan effort to move his drinks cabinet six inches close to Berlin."

Sam: "What assurance do you give, Taraka, that this bargain will be kept?"
Taraka: "My word? I shall be happy to swear by anything you care to name--"
Sam: "A facility with oaths is not the most reassuring quality in a bargainer..."

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Vellfire

#26 June 22, 2008, 01:06:21 pm

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Pretty much what 4DSheep said. The eggs used here don't have a chance to begin with, but the people this research could help do.

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Ash

#27 June 22, 2008, 02:16:54 pm

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So

are these eggs not being used because there's such a surplus, or are they not being used because they have slight defects or something and aren't the optimal choice for insemination? Either way I'm pro-stem cell, just curious.

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Lars

#28 June 22, 2008, 04:09:25 pm

Fuck off!
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oh god even gw has people against this

what is the (gaming) world coming to!!

for the record tho my dad's a doctor and scientist within the field of inner medicine (oh yeah i like some of you idiots like to say 'im a scientist because i like to figure what happens when [xxx]' but he's an ACTUAL scientist as in having shit published in the lancet etc) and he curses anyone who opposes stem cell research every time he sees them. for a person who has moral and has any fuckin idea what he's talkin about, there is no negative side about it and anyone who opposes it is either

a) a spawn of satan
b) one that hates humans and wants them to suffer
c) a fucking idiot

anti-stem cell opinion is nothing but EMPTY PRINCIPLES that MEAN NOTHING (what the fuck how is even a fetus a human being why the fuck do you care about fucking stem cells?) but HURT A LOT. and pro-life isn't an excuse because HEY IT'S GOING TO DIE ANYHOW. it's like refusing to pick up the black box from an airplane that's crashed because you oppose airplanes crashing.

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fatty

#29 June 22, 2008, 04:25:32 pm

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Quote from: Blitzen on June 22, 2008, 04:21:20 am

Since when did it become a matter of opinion wheather or not living cells are alive? Anyways, I don' t think we should be doing these things to what are essentially (pre)human beings, despite the possible benefit to already out-and-about people.

The concieved embryo at the first stages of it's existence is about 1/1000000000000 as concious as a mosquito, yet you kill mosquitos with absolutely no remorse at all.
Unless you are a Buddhist. Which you are not. You need to rethink your stuff a bit.

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dom

#30 June 22, 2008, 04:46:33 pm

Chapter Four: The Imagination And Where It Leads
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close this fucking topic

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Frisky SKeleton

#31 June 22, 2008, 10:19:19 pm

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Quote from: Lars on June 22, 2008, 04:09:25 pm

oh god even gw has people against this

what is the (gaming) world coming to!!

for the record tho my dad's a doctor and scientist within the field of inner medicine (oh yeah i like some of you idiots like to say 'im a scientist because i like to figure what happens when [xxx]' but he's an ACTUAL scientist as in having shit published in the lancet etc) and he curses anyone who opposes stem cell research every time he sees them. for a person who has moral and has any fuckin idea what he's talkin about, there is no negative side about it and anyone who opposes it is either

a) a spawn of satan
b) one that hates humans and wants them to suffer
c) a fucking idiot

anti-stem cell opinion is nothing but EMPTY PRINCIPLES that MEAN NOTHING (what the fuck how is even a fetus a human being why the fuck do you care about fucking stem cells?) but HURT A LOT. and pro-life isn't an excuse because HEY IT'S GOING TO DIE ANYHOW. it's like refusing to pick up the black box from an airplane that's crashed because you oppose airplanes crashing.

who would've guessed your dad is for abortion

scientists and doctors aren't paragons of morality. doctors have to hurt people everyday and assess how much peoples lives are worth.

does no one have any problems with these arguments? dude is gonna die might as well experiment on him; he's in a coma he won't feel it; children don't matter as much cause they can't conceptualise feelings; he's got a memory disorder he won't remember this anyway

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big ass skelly

#32 June 22, 2008, 10:22:32 pm

Ò_Ó
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climbtree what does your first post in this thread mean? I don't understand

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Farren

#33 June 22, 2008, 10:27:12 pm

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Or its just a goddamn mass of undeveloped quivering flesh without a soul, or mind at all and these obsessive zealots can't get over that and are continually stopping the progress of science and maybe even civilization as a whole with their bullshit morality.

Not that morality is bullshit, but thinking that an undeveloped seed without a functioning brain is actually a PERSON is stupid.

Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 10:36:53 pm by Harry Manback

DEUCE: MEETING THE URINE UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL AND REALIZING IT'S JUST LIKE ME AND MY PREJUDICES THIS WHOLE TIME WERE COMPLETELY FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF PTTTTHTHTHH GOD IT'S EVERYWHERE DEUCE: FUCK THIS TASTES LIKE PISS PANTS: WHERE IT SHOULD TASTE LIKE COTTON CANDY OR PICKLES DEUCE: OR AT LEAST LIKE URINE NOT PISS

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Farren

#34 June 22, 2008, 10:28:45 pm

I fear and I tremble
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Btw my fingernails have living cells in them and I don't think I should clip them because THEY ARE ALIVE

and everytime I jerk off into some tissue paper jesus cries because I'm killing babies right

Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 10:30:59 pm by Harry Manback

DEUCE: MEETING THE URINE UP CLOSE AND PERSONAL AND REALIZING IT'S JUST LIKE ME AND MY PREJUDICES THIS WHOLE TIME WERE COMPLETELY FFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFFF PTTTTHTHTHH GOD IT'S EVERYWHERE DEUCE: FUCK THIS TASTES LIKE PISS PANTS: WHERE IT SHOULD TASTE LIKE COTTON CANDY OR PICKLES DEUCE: OR AT LEAST LIKE URINE NOT PISS

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Alec

#35 June 22, 2008, 10:41:32 pm

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Quote from: Mark on June 22, 2008, 10:22:32 pm

climbtree what does your first post in this thread mean? I don't understand

Weighing the value of human lives against each other. I thought that was obvious.

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Frisky SKeleton

#36 June 22, 2008, 10:44:03 pm

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Quote from: Mark on June 22, 2008, 10:22:32 pm

climbtree what does your first post in this thread mean? I don't understand

i find measuring worth and cost-benefit analysis when you're talking about humans is really disturbing

and i find it weird because i'm fairly apathetic towards war and other peoples pain for the greater good or whatever, but it seems like figuring out which is most cost effective or which is better and then enforcing it is a tad grotesque.

harry manback not only are your fingernails and hair made out of dead cells but a better analogy would be taking out your brain or heart, the reason we wouldn't do that is because it'd hurt you and it wouldn't give us much benefit at all (especially the brain (zing))

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Marmot

#37 June 22, 2008, 10:51:42 pm

i can sell you my body
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Quote from: climbtree on June 22, 2008, 10:44:03 pm

i find measuring worth and cost-benefit analysis when you're talking about humans is really disturbing

and i find it weird because i'm fairly apathetic towards war and other peoples pain for the greater good or whatever, but it seems like figuring out which is most cost effective or which is better and then enforcing it is a tad grotesque.

harry manback not only are your fingernails and hair made out of dead cells but a better analogy would be taking out your brain or heart, the reason we wouldn't do that is because it'd hurt you and it wouldn't give us much benefit at all (especially the brain (zing))

nobody is using an "utilitarian" argument here because featuses and embryons are not in the same moral standing as persons. we are not comparing old men to children, we are comparing old men and children against a lump of cells.

furthermore, smart people who argue for abortion (or in this case, stem cell research, which face the same moral dilemma) argue from the standpoint that people should be autonomous over their own body, and therefore it is not morally reprehensible to give out an EGG because the egg cannot survive without the female's body.

Last Edit: June 22, 2008, 10:53:40 pm by Marmot

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Frisky SKeleton

#38 June 22, 2008, 11:06:16 pm

aye ess dee eff el cay jay ache
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i only brought up abortion to make fun of lars avatar again, this doesn't have much to do with it aside from maybe lessening how evil people are that have them (just kidding (they're still just as evil))

furthermore, arguing for personal choice is very different to arguing the morality of a choice because i guess i don't care about abortions but i would argue the morality of them! (i don't think people that have abortions are evil)

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cowardknower

#39 June 22, 2008, 11:09:11 pm

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http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2002/05/020529072452.htm

One of my professors was talking about how they can grow stem cells now or something and that this kinda nullifies all arguments against it because its no longer interpretable by anti-abortionists as "killin a baby"

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Frisky SKeleton

#40 June 22, 2008, 11:12:04 pm

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i've always wondered why they haven't made synthetic blood yet, that'd be boss

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