Topic: Progressive Rock (The Best Genre in the World): Symphonic Prog (Read 3138 times)

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well i was being sarcastic (but not really).

what stuff are you more interested in? aka what do you listen to?


Also, not to suck my dick too much but I think this article is a pretty good intro to prog type article. You guys know of any magazines or websites that might be interested in this?
Last Edit: June 29, 2008, 01:00:22 am by Bravo
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But yeah Prog is mostly a shitty genre imo.  I like some early Genesis and some Yes, but not much more than that.  It just comes off as rockers trying to make intelligent music, but LOL ODD METERS doesn't make your music any more interesting...  ELP is horrible too imo.
just noticed this.

i think you have a notion that all prog is like this. I did too at first, but its more than just Genesis or Yes style playing.

Progressive Rock is in its truest form is any sort of music that breaks boundaries and acts outside the norm, but it gets mistaken a LOT with symphonic prog. They are not synonymous, even hardcore prog fans get this confused (but that's because they're almost always Yes or Rush fans...poor unenlightened souls).

Bands which are prog and yet sound nothing like "LOL ODD METERS" are: Anekdoten, Gentle Giant, Green Carnation, Pain of Salvation. Now, they do have some odd time sigs and changes of tempo, but those are to improve the songs and aren't used as a gimmick (imo).
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Progressive Rock is in its truest form is any sort of music that breaks boundaries and acts outside the norm
that's bullshit.
Prog is music which has a song structure that progresses. That takes various shapes or forms.
Really breaking boundaries is avant garde, experimental, proto[something], and such
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What are you talking about? No seriously, when you think of prog what do you think of? I think we're on different wavelengths.
Last Edit: June 30, 2008, 05:49:44 pm by Bravo
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prog doesn't mean breaking boundaries. Like shepperd said, its a song that progresses. Usually a piece of music that develops over time rather than normal songs, which revert back to initial idea over an over.

I find the best progressive bands are those that do it very subtly. For instance, developing maybe one or two of the main themes over the period of the song. Prog songs that I find unsuccesful are bands that bring in way too many ideas and try to change the song in too many directions. I'm a firm believer in less in more and using one or two ideas and developing them in a clever and interesting way appeals to me a lot more.

I know they're not considered prog, but Sigur ros does this incredibly well
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what? yes it does. prog has always been about experimenting. of course these bands release songs that progress and develop a theme or whatever, but that's NOT NECESSARY. fuck man like musically yes they latch onto an idea and milk its posibilities but they also do shit like develop NEW genres (METAL! FUSION!)

the thing is, most MOST prog is about developing ideas or whatever you think it is. prog has two major divisions:
a) the bands that take established ideas and combine or explore them (aka mixing classical music with rock: ELP)
b) the bands that are experimental with the boundaries of music as a whole and MAYBE JUST MAYBE create something never heard before (this is bands like Sonic Youth (ew...) incorporating noise as a musical device).


also, many ppl consider MATH and POST FUCKING ROCK to be part of prog. like, wtf the two most random genres (and i suppose this would qualify Sigur ros as prog) are prog. why? because they are trying new things with music. like what's that pretentious definition of post rock: the use of 'rock instrumentation' for non-rock purposes.
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well to be fair a lot of math rock also incorporates elements of PROGRESSIVE metal, and you're wrong, bravo.
Sheppard and Lyndon are right, you're talking about experimental. Your definition of prog is basically what white-washed prog fans who like anything prog even when it sucks call it. It's pretentious to think of it like that.
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really? is...is that what its called? h-has my whole life been a lie?


well then just what ARE shep and lyndon talking about? its very vague saying, "prog is music that develops ideas"
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not the whole of your life, just bits of it.

it isn't vague, prog is a technical definition. Prog Rock is music that use this resource a bit too much.
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the thing is, most MOST prog is about developing ideas or whatever you think it is. prog has two major divisions:
a) the bands that take established ideas and combine or explore them (aka mixing classical music with rock: ELP)
b) the bands that are experimental with the boundaries of music as a whole and MAYBE JUST MAYBE create something never heard before (this is bands like Sonic Youth (ew...) incorporating noise as a musical device).

Not to jump on the whole genre bandwagon or whatever, but that definition kinda includes everyone from Little Richard to Black Flag to Public Enemy! I mean, I see where you're coming from, but it's kinda like how the word 'pop' technically includes every sort of music while in general people have a tendancy to associate it with a particular sound... You can argue about the original meaning of the word or whatever, but by this stage it's so strongly associated with a particular sound that what it originally meant is kind of irrelevent.

Anyway, I really don't like symphonic prog... I dunno, to me it just sounds like a kind of half-assed mixture of rock, jazz, and classical, which doesn't have any of the features that make those genres so appealing in the first place: it's rock without the raw power and emotional directness, it's jazz without the sense of fun and spontaneity, it's classical with the subtlety and nuance stripped out. Mix all those things together, and you end up with stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0FuFfcCZiE... Bombastic, po-faced, cheesy as hell, and just overall hilariously, wince-inducingly awful. I mean, yeah, a link of ELP doing a classical cover might be kind of a cheap shot, but I've listened to the other bands you've mentioned and for the most part they're not much better! The problem isn't that they're too boundary-breaking and experimental, the problem is that they're not nearly experimental enough: they just sound like cheesy, bland, neutered rock music, with some awkward classical/jazz influences shoehorned in. You can add in some crazy tempo changes and harmonium solos or whatever, but really the whole point of experimenting in music in the first place is so that you get a fresh, exciting new sound, and most of this stuff just comes off as an awkward exercise in self-indulgence.

So yeah... This is just my own personal opinion and stuff, but I just feel like symphonic prog is pretty uninteresting as a genre, since it feels more like an attempt to gentrify rock music (heh, who needs 'sex' or 'raw power' when you've got lengthy instrumentals and sci-fi concept albums, amirite?) and to try to make some misguided bid for 'artistic credibility' by jamming in half-assed classical influences rather than a genuine, natural attempt to make a great new sound. So yeah, massive run-on sentences aside, I'm not a big fan.
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Quote
You can argue about the original meaning of the word or whatever, but by this stage it's so strongly associated with a particular sound that what it originally meant is kind of irrelevent.
yeah, i suppose that was my argument really, guess lets lay this to rest


about ELP, the whole point of that song is basically to show off how amazing keith emerson, carl palmer, and greg lake are. and its a fucking AWESOME song!

I have to hand it to you though, your reasons against symphonic prog are pretty well thought out and persuasive. the only real argument I can make is that 30 years ago, this WAS experimental and groundbreaking music. not to the level King crimson was, but in its own right it was pretty innovative. fair enough, though I have to disagree in terms of it not having raw power and emotional directness or subtlety and nuance. (it has spontineity too, but this is an exception. you can't take a genre that is based on improv and play it in a strict way, the way rock (and PROG ROCK at that) is supposed to be. it takes the properties of jazz and puts it into a rock format. and the spontineity is back when you have a jam session. Just tell me the mars volta aren't having fun and being spontanieous when they do whatever it is they say they do live)


in the end: sure its taking away from rock, jazz, and classical, but its mixing it into its own concoction. you can't expect to take blue and yellow, mix them together, and get both blue and yellow again. it'll end up something different but it wouldn't be possible without those ingredients.
Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 01:50:14 am by Bravo
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Just tell me the mars volta aren't having fun and being spontanieous when they do whatever it is they say they do live)
Having fun is a bit of a stretch when you're storming out because the crowd is having too much fun. And I haven't seen any live performances but as much as I like some of their stuff, they're pretty pretentious with "let's record the entire album without hearing any of the other parts so that we can jerk off to how amazing we are later."

/derailing topic

EDIT: to be fair I've only heard FTM and parts of inertiatic esp, so I might not be listening to their "best" work but whatever I liked them better when they were at the drive in.

EDIT2: FUCKING CEDRIC SAYING THEY WERE HOLDING HIM BACK ARTISTICALLY WHEN THE SHIT WAS SO MUCH BETTER ASDFSDA
Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 01:57:33 am by Alec
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wholely agree with thecatamites, he said what I'd say if I were to have the time to type, plus I'm not so good at expressing myself.
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Prog can be experimental and experimental can be prog, there is no definite rule for it. Symphonic prog rock WAS experimental when it first came out, not so much anymore. Why are we arguing about this again?

edit:


Here's a cool video of The Tangent performing "Lost in London".

Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 07:19:24 am by DarkPriest
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<Drule> some guy on the street taught me
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so wrong...
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http://youtube.com/watch?v=9pFJu140r8E

^only prog rock band that was actually progressive in all the senses of the word. especially in the fripp/cross/wetton/bruford/muir king crimson they explored that diy attitude a number of years before punk even existed. I would also consider them the forerunner to all jam and noise rock bands as well except they didnt suck and just repeat notes or riffs at different tempos and volumes for a while
Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 03:59:10 pm by Wash Cycle
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Hey wash have you heard this song?
http://youtube.com/watch?v=zHQkC7kZ7YY&feature=related



Having fun is a bit of a stretch when you're storming out because the crowd is having too much fun. And I haven't seen any live performances but as much as I like some of their stuff, they're pretty pretentious with "let's record the entire album without hearing any of the other parts so that we can jerk off to how amazing we are later."
Too much fun as in people start throwing water bottles at you? but of course.......
Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 09:27:46 pm by Bravo
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Okay, sorry, it had been a while since I had read the story and I remembered it wrong. I thought that the crowd was just moshing, I didn't remember anything about bottles of piss and stuff.

EDIT: actually, that's a different story. this is the one I'm talking about:
Quote
Bixler-Zavala demonstrated very strong views on moshing and crowd surfing. He infamously walked off stage 10 minutes into an At The Drive-In performance at the 2001 Big Day Out festival in Sydney. He had previously asked the audience to calm down and observe the safety rules. After the refusal of the crowd, Zavala told the crowd, "I think it's a really sad day when the only way you can express yourself is by slam-dancing!", followed by cries of, “You're a robot, you're a sheep!” and proceeded to baa like a sheep at them several times before the band left the stage.
Admittedly the particular crowd was a little too rowdy, but to say NOT AT ALL AT MY SHOW is a little harsh.
Last Edit: July 01, 2008, 10:59:21 pm by Alec
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Anyway, I really don't like symphonic prog... I dunno, to me it just sounds like a kind of half-assed mixture of rock, jazz, and classical, which doesn't have any of the features that make those genres so appealing in the first place: it's rock without the raw power and emotional directness, it's jazz without the sense of fun and spontaneity, it's classical with the subtlety and nuance stripped out. Mix all those things together, and you end up with stuff like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N0FuFfcCZiE... Bombastic, po-faced, cheesy as hell, and just overall hilariously, wince-inducingly awful.


This is basically how I feel about a lot of prog. I've tried in vain to listen to it a few times but in terms of being aurally pleasing it's extremely low on the bar. There's no denying that they're fantastic musicians (that video is a solid example) but the fact is it sounds like pretentious people making 'smart' music that's had all the fun sucked out of it.

Perhaps the overtly cheesey sound is what they're going for but it just doesn't work to me. As a listener I want people to do more than have talent, I want to be enthralled and drawn into the music rather than just sitting back and going "shit, these guys are talented" which is about the only emotion prog has ever brought out of me. I can see why some musos would like it for the somewhat experimental ethos and so on behind it, but I can't imagine anyone would listen to it as a primary form of music because it basically has no heart, no subtlety, nothing that I really appreciate in music.

I'm probably not the best person to be even mini-analyzing the genre because maybe I just don't 'get it', but I listen to a lot of music and prog is one of the only ones that's continually disappointed me because although the talent is there it seems almost robotic and formulaic in it's experimental style (which might almost be an oxymoron, but it feels like it's being experimental for the sake of it too much of the time when it tries it), which is a real shame because I think many of the artists have had a lot of potential to make some truly enjoyable music rather than some kind of spectacle of notes.
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a lot of prog is pretty cheesy! however, there are some pretty good prog bands out there that dont get all crazy with the keyboard and the synths - jethro tull, king crimson, pink floyd, etc. and besides one of the best bands ever is los jaivas and it is a prog rock band.
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Okay, sorry, it had been a while since I had read the story and I remembered it wrong. I thought that the crowd was just moshing, I didn't remember anything about bottles of piss and stuff.

Yeah, there was the bottle incident, but they also hate it when people mosh, and I agree with them about that. Dancing is fine, but moshing is pretty stupid and annoying...they told the crowd to stop moshing when I went to their show a couple of months back and I'm thankful for that, because a couple of douchebags were acting pretty violent and slamming into innocent people who were just trying to enjoy the show.