goon squad AND goon squig? Is one guild not enough to contain your rampant internet awesomeness?

it's almost like Sorcerer's are a glass cannon class meant to die quickly but do big damage and Magus are a defensive spellcaster caster meant to help hold areas and burn the enemy down over time.

hm....

One problem with that theory, actually three.
1. A Magus dies just as easily as a Sorcerer and this is usually the case in PVP, because they are so little a threat to anyone they are basically a free kill.
2. Sorcerers are also much better at burning down enemies over time, they get all the same DOTs as a Magus except for one, and those DOTs do more damage and usually have a shorter duration (and longer range).
3. Magus cannot "burn" anyone down. A simple HOT will literally out heal any damage a Magus is capable of doing, so will those regeneration potions, even the ones you will find at level 1 are capable of out healing a level 16 Magus' damage.

If I was trying to defend an area I would much rather have a Sorcerer with me than a Magus (Sorcerers also provide a whole lot more utility than a Magus).
A Magus is capable of dealing the best damage in the game by far, but that damage is spread so thin it is totally ineffective at doing anything. Dealing 10 damage on 100 players for example is 1,000 damage, but does that mean it is effective or going to be a threat to the enemies, or even kill them? Hell no. On the other hand 300 damage is only 1/3rd of that, but on a single target it is much more deadly and likely to result in a kill.
That is the different between a Magus and Sorcerer.

Like I keep saying, Magus are not defensive casters in any way, shape or form, unless "defensive" is another word for weak. If you still don't believe me then go and play as one, you'll soon find out how much "defence" they bring to a battle (none).

They have powerful area denial spells man.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8499
http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8494

etc

Who cares about their raw damage. You keep saying DAMAGE but they aren't meant to DO HUGE DAMAGE. They're meant to add significant pressure to the enemy team, which will help burn through their AP/SE/DF/etc. Sorcerer's are very capable SPIKERS, Magi are very capable PRESSURERS. It just sounds like the class type isn't for you. If you want to do BIG DOMAGE go play a class meant to do BIG DOMAGE.

They have powerful area denial spells man.

http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8499
http://www.wardb.com/spell.aspx?id=8494

etc

Who cares about their raw damage. You keep saying DAMAGE but they aren't meant to DO HUGE DAMAGE. They're meant to add significant pressure to the enemy team, which will help burn through their AP/SE/DF/etc. Sorcerer's are very capable SPIKERS, Magi are very capable PRESSURERS. It just sounds like the class type isn't for you. If you want to do BIG DOMAGE go play a class meant to do BIG DOMAGE.

Both of those aren't that great.
Dissolving Mist has a 20ft radius, not a 240ft radius. You can basically walk around it and it will take you 1 second longer to get to somewhere, or you can run through it and totally avoid any damage it would deal to you anyway.
Chaotic Rift could be decent... If you didn't have to specialize in Demonology to get it. By the way, demonology is pretty rubbish to specialize in, unless you like using low damage melee abilities while being a "ranged damage dealer". (This basically equates to committing suicide if you didn't figure it out already)

And like I said. Go and PLAY as a Magus before you try and talk about them. They add no significant pressure AT ALL to the enemy team. Like I previously said, if you took all the Magus' DOT spells and applied them to a single target, any damage they might deal can be healed (and more) with a single DOT, which by the way are a very cheap and effective way of healing. Even their nukes can be out healed by a single DOT. It gets even easier to heal anything a Magus can throw at you once healers get their AOE heal spell. This single spell renders anything a Magus has done useless (and is again, very cheap and effective to use).

I'd still rather have a Sorcerer defend a point instead of a Magus anyway.
Sorcerers get several snares, roots, silences, disarms, knockback effects an can provide both defensive and offensive buffs and debuffs (they also have a duplicate of the Dissolving Mist skill, only it does more damage). They can put much more pressure on an enemy team that a Magus ever can (they have a debuff to decrease healing done and deal damage at the same time AND they have powerful abilities to drain AP, which from a healer can be devistating). They can do all this while doing excellent damage.
On the other hand a Magus has snares, a root or two, an interrupt, a knockback effect, but provides no buffs or support at all, and has 1 useful debuff spell. They also are only doing a fraction of the damage a Sorcerer would.

If we take tactics into this it becomes even more insane. The main nuke of a Sorcerer becomes an insane weapon, capable of dealing very high damage and crippling any class (draining AP and debuffing damage).
They become much more defensive (not uncommon for them to get 50%+ resistance to all attacks except melee), 1/3rd of their abilities get a knockback effect. They become highly self reliant, being able to heal themselves with both HP and AP while dealing damage. They get even more buffs, both defensive and offensive. They even have the ability to turn their weakness and fragility into an offensive ability. All this while providing massive damage boosts.
Magus tactics on the other hand are like their abilties, 90% of them do nothing but increase damage, but it still does not compare to a Sorcerers. They do get minor defensive abilities, no decent buffs and one or two abilities to become slightly more self reliant. They also get a fair few really useless abilities (pet related ones).

I have played as both classes, I know for a fact that a Magus is a useless class at the moment. A Sorcerer out preforms them in every way possible, damage, AOE, utility, support, debuffing, defence, you name it, a Sorcerer can do it better than a Magus.

rowain how is black orc?

yeah im about to roll a zealot because girl zealots look awesome

her name is uh.. dang, i made her this morning and i already cant remember what i called her rofl. oh well.

I have to agree with yugi that magi are weak and does not fill the "defensive" caster role too well. They are just as vulnerable as all other casters. They don't actually get any major and unique defensive abilities that would give them the defensive edge. Majority of magus' damage is from DoTs and the DoTs barely do any damage at all. The pets get ignored as well.

Here's a screen shot of one scenario's end results.

As you can see, I did lots of damage (4th highest), but my kills, killing blows, renown and experience gained are far below the others in top 10. I also died much more.

On other news, here's some other, cool, screen shots I grabbed:

I like Black Orc quite a bit. It's the first character I've had in a MMORPG that ACTUALLY FELT LIKE A TANK, as in I can go toe to toe with four or five equal level mobs and smash and bash through them. The DPS is mediocre, it's not AWFUL but it's no Marauder or anything. There's a nice stackable armour debuff, as well as War Bellows, which are self buffs. You can only have one active, but they provide some sweet bonuses based on a proc. The first one you get gives you a chance to steal the enemies Wounds stat on hit, and it increases your max health by whatever you steal (averages about +400 HP when it procs at my rank). The best part is that it ALSO HEALS you by whatever you steal, which is awesome for soloing. The increased wounds stat lasts for 10 seconds. Another one allows you to steal ANY stat (think it's random) and increases your stats.

There's also a Weapon Skill debuff called "Right in da Jibblies" which literally involves you kicking your opponent in the balls, nice flavour ability there. Also the Black Orc just LOOKS GOOD, all brutish metal plating and pointy edges. He looks like a dangerous motherfucker, and I like that! PVP is fun because you can just stand in choke points, and with a bit of healing, you'll hold off an army!

Just had a funky bug where my character was shown like 30 feet ahead of where the server thought he was
and slightly in the air.

The Black Orc is like the bestessssss class for destruction. Nothing beats WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGHING at everything before you run in and take on like 3 order members. I haven't felt this invigorated by an MMO in a long, long time.

I have to agree with yugi that magi are weak and does not fill the "defensive" caster role too well. They are just as vulnerable as all other casters. They don't actually get any major and unique defensive abilities that would give them the defensive edge. Majority of magus' damage is from DoTs and the DoTs barely do any damage at all. The pets get ignored as well.

Here's a screen shot of one scenario's end results.

Hidden content (Click to reveal)

http://gamingw.net/pubaccess/23607/neen.jpg
In comparison, I as a Sorcerer dealt the most damage by far, got the most killing blows by far and got the most solo kills by far.

I never said Magi weren't weak fyi, but they aren't meant to do direct damage or actually kill anything out right, like a Sorcerer is. They're defensive pressurers. They peck away at health bars and AP bars. Yes, you can say that a HoT can out heal your DoT's, but guess what, if it's out healing your DoT's, guess what it isn't doing: out healing other stuff. This let's your damage dealers have more leeway at doing their stuff since they aren't getting mopped up by the HoT's. They pressure AP bars which can open up opportunities in a fight where maybe the healer's don't have all their options available. Comparing killing blows of a Magus and Sorcerer is the equivalent of comparing the killing blows of a Marauder and say, a Shaman, or in say, WoW terms, a Rogue and a Discipline Priest/Holy Paladin in Killing Blows. A Marauder is built to actually kill stuff, a Shaman has damage options but it doesn't really kill things so much as use its pressure to supplement it's healing opportunities.

What you are saying is quite silly, HL. Doesn't direct damage that kills actually hurt enemy AP and health even more?

Maguses also need something unique. Theirs abilities are not unique in anyway so it's pretty useless to say they serve some other purpose when all other classes can do the same thing and MORE.

Maybe if this was a typical generic MMORPG combat design system down to the core. "heh if i do BIG DOMAGE more it hurts them more, obviously." I guess the problem with the typical generic MMORPG combat design is that all they have is SPIKE or PRESSURE but never both. World of Warcraft is pure SPIKE in its PvP, there is no true pressure. All it has is burst play really.

No, Spiking doesn't hurt them more. There's a vast difference between spiking and pressure play. Spikes are going to get the awareness of the enemy a lot easier, and force them to use their resources at a pace that matches the spike while keeping it up. This means in general, they're going to be a lot more aware and carefully watching what you're doing. They'll notice whose getting focus targeted and mop it up as it comes at the proper pace so they don't go OOM. Spiking relies on someone making a backline mistake. A mistimed heal, a targeting error, a positioning error causing a silence effect/CC, etc.

Pressure is far more slower, and is the equivalent of trying to crack a huge skyscraper's foundation from underneath itself. It works in Warhammer because they don't take the generic MMORPG combat design approach, and instead take a more slower deliberate speed like Guild Wars does along with a lot of it's nuances that make pressure work in it right. Pressure might not outright kill anyone, but it lets the spikers do their job far easier when the enemy is getting pecked to death.

Spiking is a far faster process, yes, and it does more damage, yes, but it's also far easier to catch and mop up quicker with a proper backline playing efficiently. Pressure is more spread out and less on one person (generally spread out amongst tons of targets as possible), which means the enemy backline has more work to do, and it's harder for them to efficiently backline because the damage is spread out over time and on several targets, which requires a lot more communication and planning to mop up efficiently. The end result is generally the backline will eventually crumble because the healer's and protector's aren't doing their job efficiently 100% of the time, which let's the spiker's get in and do their job far easier because the enemy backline's resources run dry.

Magi are far superior at being outright pressurer's than the Sorcerer is. The Sorcerer does more damage, but it's a Spike class.

Pressure in general will always do more hurting on enemy HP/AP than Spiking ever will. It's a lot easier to make a mistake against pressure than it is spiking, and those mistakes cost entire fights since you're affecting multiple people, instead of just killing 1-2 people.

No I don't think you understad, sorcerors do more dmg

There is one small problem with Magus being a "pressure" class, wait maybe 2.
1. Their damage is so low you couldn't even call it pressure. My Sorcerer gets a bunch of DOTs as well, and they deal more damage than a Magus' DOTs, I also get a really amazing delayed damage skill (which also cripples healers) and awesome AOE damage. A Magus might put pressure on people by slowly eating away at their HP/AP, but a Sorcerer does the same, while forcing people to get rapidly healed or die while damaging large groups of enemies so the heals are spread thin. I know which one sounds like more pressure on an enemy team if you ask me!
2. Combat in WAR is fast. An average fight rarely lasts more than say... 10-15 seconds, some enemies die in seconds if ganged up on. The DOTs of a Magus all last 15+ seconds and deal damage every 3 seconds. A lot of their usefullness is lost because they last too long to get the full effect out of them. In the rare cases that they do last their entire duration that is because your side is losing or has already lost the fight. A sorcerers DOTs last a shorter time and do more damage, they are much more useful to use in a combat situation due to this.

Also, pressure is very little use to spike damage dealers. Proof in that I posted a screenshot where I got a good deal of solo kills (That is, kills where I dealt 100% of the damage to the enemy) in a scenario. This is a common occurance too.
I can also flat out kill people before your "pressure" has chance to deal 100 damage. Start the fight with a DOT, deals on average 300 damage over 9s, quickly turn enemy into a time bomb, deals 250-500 damage, then nuke them once, deals 300-600 damage, finish it with a rapid fire nuke, deals 200 damage. In those 10 seconds I have just dealt over 1200 damage (with dark magic full and crits which are very common it is closer to 2000), in those 10s I deals 1000% the damage you did and that is more or less guaranteed to kill anyone my level except for maybe a tank that got lucky and evaded my critical hits (in this case I usually just Mage Bolt them, which can crit for 800 damage, otherwise 350 damage, which will have them dead).

You just don't seem to understand how poor the Magus damage is. They put pressure on no one, because their damage output is so low it is not a threat at all.
You might try and say it makes people easier to kill as healers are healing the Magus damage, not other damage being dealt... But have you even seen how powerful healers are right now? A single healer can out heal the damage a Magus and 2 other people are doing with ease. Even I as a Sorcerer cannot kill people if they have a healer healing them, even with the help of a Magus that does not change. 2 Healers healing one person makes them practically impossible to kill.
In the scenario of the screenshot I posted, I had 2-4 healers with me most of the time, and even with backlashes dealing 200-300 to me and people hitting me constantly, I rarely ever came close to dying.
Also, as a Zealot during open beta I could quiet easily tank 2-3 people my level (including damage dealers) with relative ease, and I could do so for minutes at a time.
If a Magus' damage dealing capabilities were equal to a healers healing ability then maybe they would put pressure on healers, but healers far out heal any damage a Magus can do.
If after all this you are still in denial then just go make a Magus. Come back once you reach rank 11, you'll soon see just how wrong you have been up until now.

Also, combat in WAR is about damage. Especially for a Magus who has very little of anything but damage dealing. They get less crowd control, utility, support/debuffing ability than most other classes (if not ALL other classes) in the game. If they are not dealing damage then what other use do they have? For a Magus it is ALL about the damage, and the bigger the damage the better. Unless they get a massive boost to their damage then the only way the class could possibly compare to others in usefulness is if it was totally redesigned.

"Spiking" the enemy hurts a lot more than pressure ever does, just so you know. If I can kill someone in 5-10 seconds that is much more useful than dealing minor damage to people, especially if the person I just killed was a healer. (I know I'd much rather have the healers removed from combat than have them waste a bit of AP every now and then to clean up whatever damage a Magus happens to be doing) And in those few seconds it does take for me to kill someone any contributions from a Magus don't matter, if they contribute I kill the enemy, if they don't contribute I still kill the enemy.

If you want an example of usefullness in combat then compare two spells.
Glean Magic and Shattered Shadows. (I will use rank 10 as a comparison)
They are both long ranged spells that hit a single target then do AOE damage to other enemies near that target. They both do similar damage (Glean Magic does 7 more damage, but "DPS" does not effect it, where as 105% of DPS is added to Shattered Shadows), Shattered Shadows has a longer range and a casting time. Glean Magic decreases spirit resistance.
Basically, I can deal 130 damage over 20s with Glean magic, or 123 damage in 3s with Shattered Shadows. I know which one sounds more useful if you ask me! (I'm not even taking other things into account like dark magic and critical hits, because then it becomes a comparison of 130 damage over 20s, or 160-400 damage in 3s).

How about Pandemonium and Gloom of Night?
Both the same skill, they are a DOT that when ticks will also deal damage to everyone near the player effected by the DOT.
Gloom of Night has a longer range, casting time and cooldown time.
Pandemonium deals 600 damage at rank 40, Gloom of Night deals... 995 damage.

I could go on and on, comparing these skills, and you'd find the Sorcerers are superior everytime, at everything (spike or pressure play).
A sorcerer that focuses on Calamity (DOT damage) is in particular excellent at this sort of "pressure" play as you call it (higher damage, much more utility and useful debuffs).

EDIT: Does anyone know when this game stops being a WOW clone exactly :[? I am level 24 on my Magus, and the game still feels like a really clunky WoW clone, only with less to do and "excellent" pvp (exp and items for kills!)

1. Their damage is so low you couldn't even call it pressure. My Sorcerer gets a bunch of DOTs as well, and they deal more damage than a Magus' DOTs, I also get a really amazing delayed damage skill (which also cripples healers) and awesome AOE damage. A Magus might put pressure on people by slowly eating away at their HP/AP, but a Sorcerer does the same, while forcing people to get rapidly healed or die while damaging large groups of enemies so the heals are spread thin. I know which one sounds like more pressure on an enemy team if you ask me!

Pressure is low amounts of controlled damage, typically spread across a ton of people. So yes, you can call it pressure. Sorcerer's do not do the same, they very quickly eat away at HP, which signals the enemy to heal them but be careful because we're getting spiked. Really if the enemy team is sucking with their backline heals vs spike in like 10 seconds then they need to learn2backline because handling spike is very easy and all about making 1 mistake that was super obvious that you shouldn't have made. (Compared to pressure which is a lot of mistakes that aren't very obvious.)

2. Combat in WAR is fast. An average fight rarely lasts more than say... 10-15 seconds, some enemies die in seconds if ganged up on. The DOTs of a Magus all last 15+ seconds and deal damage every 3 seconds. A lot of their usefullness is lost because they last too long to get the full effect out of them. In the rare cases that they do last their entire duration that is because your side is losing or has already lost the fight. A sorcerers DOTs last a shorter time and do more damage, they are much more useful to use in a combat situation due to this.

maybe in outnumbered low tier RvR or pub scenarios? pretty much when you have people who know what they are doing, the combat is NOT fast as in 10-15 second combat. It is a very more slower and deliberate pace.

Also, pressure is very little use to spike damage dealers. Proof in that I posted a screenshot where I got a good deal of solo kills (That is, kills where I dealt 100% of the damage to the enemy) in a scenario. This is a common occurance too.
I can also flat out kill people before your "pressure" has chance to deal 100 damage. Start the fight with a DOT, deals on average 300 damage over 9s, quickly turn enemy into a time bomb, deals 250-500 damage, then nuke them once, deals 300-600 damage, finish it with a rapid fire nuke, deals 200 damage. In those 10 seconds I have just dealt over 1200 damage (with dark magic full and crits which are very common it is closer to 2000), in those 10s I deals 1000% the damage you did and that is more or less guaranteed to kill anyone my level except for maybe a tank that got lucky and evaded my critical hits (in this case I usually just Mage Bolt them, which can crit for 800 damage, otherwise 350 damage, which will have them dead).

read: shit backline on enemy team.

You just don't seem to understand how poor the Magus damage is. They put pressure on no one, because their damage output is so low it is not a threat at all.
You might try and say it makes people easier to kill as healers are healing the Magus damage, not other damage being dealt... But have you even seen how powerful healers are right now? A single healer can out heal the damage a Magus and 2 other people are doing with ease. Even I as a Sorcerer cannot kill people if they have a healer healing them, even with the help of a Magus that does not change. 2 Healers healing one person makes them practically impossible to kill.
In the scenario of the screenshot I posted, I had 2-4 healers with me most of the time, and even with backlashes dealing 200-300 to me and people hitting me constantly, I rarely ever came close to dying.
Also, as a Zealot during open beta I could quiet easily tank 2-3 people my level (including damage dealers) with relative ease, and I could do so for minutes at a time.
If a Magus' damage dealing capabilities were equal to a healers healing ability then maybe they would put pressure on healers, but healers far out heal any damage a Magus can do.
If after all this you are still in denial then just go make a Magus. Come back once you reach rank 11, you'll soon see just how wrong you have been up until now.

read: i'm talking about low tiers where the people are shit and/or no one has silence or health percentile debuffs yet.

Also, combat in WAR is about damage. Especially for a Magus who has very little of anything but damage dealing. They get less crowd control, utility, support/debuffing ability than most other classes (if not ALL other classes) in the game. If they are not dealing damage then what other use do they have? For a Magus it is ALL about the damage, and the bigger the damage the better. Unless they get a massive boost to their damage then the only way the class could possibly compare to others in usefulness is if it was totally redesigned.

there is more to damage than making the biggest # above the other guy's head.

"Spiking" the enemy hurts a lot more than pressure ever does, just so you know. If I can kill someone in 5-10 seconds that is much more useful than dealing minor damage to people, especially if the person I just killed was a healer. (I know I'd much rather have the healers removed from combat than have them waste a bit of AP every now and then to clean up whatever damage a Magus happens to be doing) And in those few seconds it does take for me to kill someone any contributions from a Magus don't matter, if they contribute I kill the enemy, if they don't contribute I still kill the enemy.

you're not going to kill someone in 5-10 seconds if they have a good aware backline.

Basically, I can deal 130 damage over 20s with Glean magic, or 123 damage in 3s with Shattered Shadows. I know which one sounds more useful if you ask me! (I'm not even taking other things into account like dark magic and critical hits, because then it becomes a comparison of 130 damage over 20s, or 160-400 damage in 3s).

yes, the one that does 130 damage one over 20 seconds for long time small pressure and the 123 damage one in 3s for a quick spike. (especially if Sorcerer's have an analog skill to Detonate.)

a 3s skill that does big damage isn't really pressure at all and i think you just fail to understand pressure play. you keep saying ARGH NOT BIG ENOUGH DAMAGE but pressure isn't about DOING BIG AMAZING DAMAGE it's just about deconstructing the enemy team's options in the long term.

EDIT: Does anyone know when this game stops being a WOW clone exactly :[? I am level 24 on my Magus, and the game still feels like a really clunky WoW clone, only with less to do and "excellent" pvp (exp and items for kills!)

you obviously haven't sieged yet, or didn't try RvR at all then! its also not a wow clone please stop saying that stupid line.


really it just sounds like you're playing a lot of bad players, especially bad pug backline players, tbh. yes the magus is fairly weak at what he does (could use a couple more defensive spells here or there with a bit more utility), but he is ok at providing defensive pressure which is what he is meant to do. if you want to do big damage go play an offensive ranged spiker class like the Sorcerer (seems you have, that's good!)

The problem with Magus is not really the damage. It's the lack of unique abilities that would justify their low damage. Currently they get nothing for their crappy damage that all other classes can also do. Their utility is the same all other classes get. They wear light armor like all other casters, have all the same abilities but deal a lot less damage. Pressure damage? I'm quite sure the one eating away health, killing people and beating the healing with the damage is more useful than someone doing 10 damage/tick to 10 people who all get healed for 50 health/tick or so...