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NightBlade

#2261 November 13, 2008, 01:40:03 am

Red Eyes Black Jacket
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This makes you seem just pretty out of touch to be honest. Battlegrounds aren't the home of strategic warfare they once were at all. People DO just do them for the honour grind and most GOOD players are just in arena. I don't care if that's elitist, that's how it is right now. You'll get insulted for trying to organise strategies no matter how you do it because people see it as ruining the graveyard farming fun. Group up on ramp to kill efc? No way, we're mid-ganking. The abs where I have one other person reporting incomings (2 out of 15) feel perfectly executed these days. Battlegrounds are trash, the players in them are trash, the only reason good pvpers will do them in the current system is so they can do arena which, even if you think it is more trash pvp, has measurable levels of success and gives a proper sense of achievement. To me at least.

... Again, you're playing in public teams, what do you expect? Public teams have no organization, they have no unified strategy, and they have no synergy. What I was saying was that premade vs. premade objective based gameplay is more enriching than tossing people into a small area and watch them kill one another. In other words; premade BGs against two well played teams. If you could PuG arena, you'd get the same results as a pug BG. What about this isn't clear?

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Arena does have an objective. Kill those fuckers with the other coloured flag. FEH.... SUCH UNCIVILIZED WARFARE i'm sure you think but a 5v5 arena game at even 1700+ requires more than 10 times the strategy a premade versus premade WSG game would take. I've done both, lots.

This really... really confuses me. With the last snippet you completely disregarded the difference between preformed groups in battlegrounds, yet with this you cite that arena is more strategic than battlegrounds, regardless of any type of team play. I will concede, that Arenas do have an objective; but the fact remains that it's a very simple one. All it is is a death match. Just like warsong is just capture the flag, and arathi basin is just ... well something.

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So yeah, it'll be nice if they ever implement rated BGs. I'm not actually a fan of instanced pvp, It is gay in an mmo! I've always thought that since I started playing wow. Buuuuuuut, I also DO LIKE arena and I'm very happy with how fun it is to play with people I like compared to BGs. It feels like a progression from BGs, which seems to be their aim at this point

Why don't you try playing bgs with people you like instead? Well, at this point you can't; because any premade who faces another premade, one always leaves in lieu of quicker points. But that's beside the point.

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I've read this like 5 times now and I dunno if I'm misinterpreting it but this seems to be really retarded 8-(

I worded that poorly, and for that I apologize. What I mean is that the rewards garnered from better performance should give an additional advantage to those who are already better at playing the game.

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bonermobile

#2262 November 13, 2008, 03:11:32 am

B-U-N-C-H-I-E-S! BUNCHIES!
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Joined: Dec 21, 2002
Posts: 1309

man if you're talking about leveling the playing field you might as well eliminate classes too, because some classes will always have a harder time against others.

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NightBlade

#2263 November 13, 2008, 03:58:00 am

Red Eyes Black Jacket
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Posts: 1364

Quote from: BobJustBob on November 13, 2008, 03:11:32 am

man if you're talking about leveling the playing field you might as well eliminate classes too, because some classes will always have a harder time against others.

Every class based, player v. player game is like that; that's what you have a team for. Of course this is diluted by the presence of 2v2 and 3v3 arena; which (last I checked) award players for their efforts all the same.

Would it really be that bad, or even impractical to have a system such as this in place?

Leave the gear earning and the like to tied to a mixture of the new world PVP area and a light mix of BGs (maybe even mix up some minor pieces attained from the pve instance while under your control), and leave the arena as a separate entity where gear is preselected in the waiting room. Ratings, titles, and other superficial rewards are still there; but you're never forced to do arena to get PVP gear. Why would a system like this be bad for anyone? Are they afraid nobody will do it unless there's some kind of gear reward? How about exactly the same itemized gear with a specially made skin just for the high ranking players?

Are the devs so afraid nobody will do it unless they give high ranking players some kind of advantage, however small to the more dominant players?

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The Truth

#2264 November 13, 2008, 05:27:35 am

SB is unaware that Dimmu sucks
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Posts: 1204

shut the fuck up nightblade for real

--- Back when we were young and loved the internet....

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thejackyl

#2265 November 13, 2008, 06:10:11 am

Developer of "Eternal Conflict" Series
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Joined: Sep 19, 2006
Posts: 784

So... me and a friend went to a midnight release and picked this up. We're both wondering what came with the collector's edition?

Oh, and apparently I'm not gonna roll Horde. I'm quite liking my Refer-a-Friend XP

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big ass skelly

#2266 November 13, 2008, 09:14:01 am

Ò_Ó
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Posts: 4313

Quote from: NightBlade on November 13, 2008, 01:40:03 am

... Again, you're playing in public teams, what do you expect?

Why are you asking me? You can't play full premades at the moment

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Public teams have no organization, they have no unified strategy, and they have no synergy.

PUB people gearing up (the only people in bgs) ill also take offense to anyone TRYING to give them a unified strategy, even a simple one.

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What I was saying was that premade vs. premade objective based gameplay is more enriching than tossing people into a small area and watch them kill one another.

I honestly get the feeling that you haven't played any decent high end arena seriously. I can't think of a game I haven't disconnected from that didn't have more depth of strategy than any premade versus premade bg I've ever played.

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In other words; premade BGs against two well played teams. If you could PuG arena, you'd get the same results as a pug BG. What about this isn't clear?

Who said it wasn't clear? I just don't agree with you. You can pug arena, it's called skirmish and even skirmish is better quality than BGs

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This really... really confuses me. With the last snippet you completely disregarded the difference between preformed groups in battlegrounds, yet with this you cite that arena is more strategic than battlegrounds, regardless of any type of team play. I will concede, that Arenas do have an objective; but the fact remains that it's a very simple one. All it is is a death match. Just like warsong is just capture the flag, and arathi basin is just ... well something.

What's to get confused about here? In my personal and frankly extensive experience of BGs (premade and pug) and arena, being successful in arena requires more team strategy, better personal execution and better class knowledge than premade versus premade pvp. Even though arena IS basically premade versus premade pvp on a smaller scale.

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Why don't you try playing bgs with people you like instead? Well, at this point you can't; because any premade who faces another premade, one always leaves in lieu of quicker points. But that's beside the point.

Most people LIKE ME lol has already got their full nonsets for the season (I have 2 sets, crit and haste) and is capped on honour and marks again. After that we hit the arena because it's more exciting and more fun. Yep.

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I worded that poorly, and for that I apologize. What I mean is that the rewards garnered from better performance should give an additional advantage to those who are already better at playing the game.

Isn't this the opposite of what you mean?

Btw how come you hated war so much? It's basically the exact game you want to play (no emphasis on personal skill, little emphasis on character improvement, large emphasis on team organisation and unrewarding "endgame").

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UPRC

#2267 November 13, 2008, 12:07:06 pm

No, it doesn't stand for anything.
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Joined: May 25, 2002
Posts: 2974

Nice debate.

So, how 'bout that expansion?

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NightBlade

#2268 November 13, 2008, 05:19:31 pm

Red Eyes Black Jacket
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Joined: May 16, 2002
Posts: 1364

Quote from: Mark on November 13, 2008, 09:14:01 am

Why are you asking me? You can't play full premades at the moment

You just got through saying you can play in a full premade minus one character.

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PUB people gearing up (the only people in bgs) ill also take offense to anyone TRYING to give them a unified strategy, even a simple one.I honestly get the feeling that you haven't played any decent high end arena seriously. I can't think of a game I haven't disconnected from that didn't have more depth of strategy than any premade versus premade bg I've ever played.

You can't think of it because it was most likely before your time. Before cross realm battlegrounds destroyed the server rivalries, before people scouted battlegrounds to find out whether it was a premade or not.

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Who said it wasn't clear? I just don't agree with you. You can pug arena, it's called skirmish and even skirmish is better quality than BGs

This is a non factor. Nobody does skirmishes; why? I'll let you figure it out.

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What's to get confused about here? In my personal and frankly extensive experience of BGs (premade and pug) and arena, being successful in arena requires more team strategy, better personal execution and better class knowledge than premade versus premade pvp. Even though arena IS basically premade versus premade pvp on a smaller scale.

Your experience obviously isn't extensive since you just admitted to never having a close or well played battlegrounds match. A deathmatch is just that, a deathmatch; in an MMO - where the "skill" cap is too laughably low to even call "skill" (Though, I must confess that calling any game playing ability skill sounds beyond stupid).

You're right though, Arena is two premades groups, fighting it out on a smaller scale. A game mode this game wasn't originally designed for, and the players saw the effect of this in the BC, and it'll continue throughout the new expansion.

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Most people LIKE ME lol has already got their full nonsets for the season (I have 2 sets, crit and haste) and is capped on honour and marks again. After that we hit the arena because it's more exciting and more fun. Yep.

That's fine, your perfectly entitled to like Arena; however flawed it's implementation may be.

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Btw how come you hated war so much? It's basically the exact game you want to play (no emphasis on personal skill, little emphasis on character improvement, large emphasis on team organisation and unrewarding "endgame").

You misunderstand. I don't want a game where there's no challenge in mastery.

Warhammer Online turned out to be garbage because of many fundamental flaws, such as (but not limited to) the garbage combat system; and the lack of any type of dynamic PVP.

Why is every Arena big shot afraid of my little suggestion? Hm.

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big ass skelly

#2269 November 13, 2008, 08:17:52 pm

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Quote from: NightBlade on November 13, 2008, 05:19:31 pm

This is a non factor. Nobody does skirmishes; why? I'll let you figure it out.

Because there's no character improvement available unlike every other single element of the game.

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Your experience obviously isn't extensive since you just admitted to never having a close or well played battlegrounds match. A deathmatch is just that, a deathmatch; in an MMO - where the "skill" cap is too laughably low to even call "skill" (Though, I must confess that calling any game playing ability skill sounds beyond stupid).

Lol. I didn't admit that at all. I just disagree with you that premade versus premade has more depth than any nearly any arena game in any bracket. You're right I wasn't around before xrealm bgs (I don't know what this has to do with anything) but on my old main I played as a stand-in in several havoc versus execute wsg organised games when havoc's main warlock couldn't make it. Those guilds were two of the best respected pre-tbc pvp guilds on the battlegroup. Don't tell me I don't have experience I do have of the type of pvp you think is so much greater thanks. I just don't think it's very sophisticated compared to the tactics and required level of execution needed for arena.

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You're right though, Arena is two premades groups, fighting it out on a smaller scale. A game mode this game wasn't originally designed for, and the players saw the effect of this in the BC, and it'll continue throughout the new expansion.

Ye I know

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Why is every Arena big shot afraid of my little suggestion? Hm.

I dunno why you're trying to aggravate me just becuase I'm an arena player really. I already said I don't especially like instanced pvp from an overall design perspective (my ideal situation would be primarily world pvp with no access to people from other realms but this is unrealistic because of how H/A imbalanced nearly every realm is). BUT I also like arena a lot because of how much individual skill (I don't care if you think THE IDEA OF SKILL IN GAMES IS ABHORRENT, it exists and is incredibly noticable) AND team coordination you need compared to any larger scale pvp.

Why is every scrub "bg player" such an opinionated dick eater about design directions a game moved away from 3 years ago? Hmm.

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NightBlade

#2270 November 13, 2008, 09:11:18 pm

Red Eyes Black Jacket
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Posts: 1364

Quote from: Mark on November 13, 2008, 08:17:52 pm

Because there's no character improvement available unlike every other single element of the game.

Precisely.

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Why is every scrub "bg player" such an opinionated dick eater about design directions a game moved away from 3 years ago? Hmm.

I don't know, why is every "Arena PRO GAMER" a colossal, self important, insecure dick who needs better things than everyone else; because if BADS GOT GOOD GEAR IT"S THE AN OUTRAGEE.

This obviously isn't going anywhere at this point, neither one of us will concede a point. You're going to say 5v5 death matches are more strategic than objective game modes, while I turn around and say "no u".

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shut the fuck up nightblade for real

Eat a dick.

* Flicks back Meg ryan style TIDUS HAIR, as he runs away flailing his arms sputtering incoherent catchphrases *

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big ass skelly

#2271 November 13, 2008, 09:51:46 pm

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Yeah basically we just have different opinions on what makes good pvp

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I don't know, why is every "Arena PRO GAMER" a colossal, self important, insecure dick who needs better things than everyone else; because if BADS GOT GOOD GEAR IT"S THE AN OUTRAGEE.

I don't NEED the things lol, I can and have beat a lot of the other mages on my server naked and with less optimal talents cause i rock THIS much *uses dick as a ruler*. I'm rewarded with very marginally better gear than people who don't rock or don't try. They're given it slightly later so they CAN still compete when the players that DO go as far as they can in the current pvp system (whether you like the path of progression or not) are getting the newest added gear.

I just don't think it's at all as disgusting a design as you seem to. Because of how wow works you can't have a level playing field gearwise without making all gear the same as soon as someone enters a pvp instance. This makes raider's gear achievements feel even less worthwhile and they'll stop raiding and blizzard would lose heaps of money from pvers quitting. You wouldn't be able to make gear the same in THE WORLD though so pve gear would have a stupid advantage like it did pre tbc and blizzard would lose heaps of money from pvpers quitting. So there's a few tiers of gear, from starter gear available from bgs to EVER SO MARGINALLY higher quality gear from high end arena. The small increase is enough to make pvpers who go as far as they can in arena feel like they're achieving a lot and blzizard keeps their money. The slight stat disadvantage on the BG gear isn't enough to make BG players feel too gimped (unless they ARE terrible) AND if they do feel gimped encourages them too to try and get far in arena so blizzard keeps THEIR money.

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Ash

#2272 November 13, 2008, 09:52:43 pm

Peasant
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Posts: 229

Quote from: UPRC on November 13, 2008, 12:07:06 pm

So, how 'bout that expansion?

I ran Utgarde Keep last night. It was a little disappointing actually; the actual instance was a cakewalk, but then the last boss was noticeably harder. I've stayed in Howling Fjord so far, and it's pretty great though.

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big ass skelly

#2273 November 13, 2008, 10:27:56 pm

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Yeah bout that expansion. After work today I went to the only shop that's stocking it in my town apparently and they were like PREORDER...? YOU DO GOT A PREORDER??? They wouldn't sell it to me cause I didn't so I don't have it yet. I ordered it now but it's apparently goign to come on like tuesday

I would have preordered the motherfucker too but I only just got my bank card reissued THIS IS QUITE GAY